Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?
- Thread starter PedroKsBambino
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The intrigue continues! Sam Amick does the obvious thing and gets some quotes from Fultz's trainer, who asserts that the change in shot mechanics was due to the shoulder pain. Two quotes.
“Obviously he has some inflammation,” Williams, who went to high school with Fultz’s mother, Ebony, continued. “They went to a specialist yesterday, and they found some other things, some tightness and stuff, in his shoulder. All these things are factual.”
So the kid got a cortisone injection on October 5 and changed his shot due to shoulder issues but is first seeing a specialist two days ago? Umm, is anyone home?
“The shot was never changed (before the shoulder pain),” Williams – who trained the New Orleans Pelicans’ DeMarcus Cousins in his college and early pro years, among other NBA clients – said by phone. “He’s a great shooting point guard. There haven’t been many point guards who shot the ball as well as him coming out of college, off the dribble and off the catch. I never changed the shot. Why would I?”
and
“Obviously he has some inflammation,” Williams, who went to high school with Fultz’s mother, Ebony, continued. “They went to a specialist yesterday, and they found some other things, some tightness and stuff, in his shoulder. All these things are factual.”
Good timeline of events here: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-shoulder-injury-became-the-ugliest-most-confusing-debacle-in-the-nba/
I find the whole medical conspiracy theory a bit ludicrous, considering that Fultz only missed 6 games last year, while Tatum missed 8 games.
Why can't it just be as simple as Danny viewed Tatum as nearly as sure of a thing, and he got to pick up an additional asset?
He probably also thought Fultz was a weird dude and that something was off. At least I would hope he picked up on that, based on how weird Fultz seems to be. I think HRB's Royce Young comp earlier is pretty decent.
Yeah the signs were there from the first post-lottery interviews when Ainge never mentioned him by name. Had Fultz been Ainge's clear cut guy going out of his way to avoid mentioning him does not occur. Thats #1.....number 2 is that immediately following Ainge meeting with Fultz the player then scheduled workouts with Philly and the Lakers.
It wasn't as though there was this long discussion between Ainge and his people about what to do here......it was evident early on Fultz wasn't going to be a Celtic.
I have no idea whether Fultz has the demeanor of Michael Jordan or Royce Young.
That gap in my own knowledge clearly stated, I find it easy to believe that Celtics Niednagel-infused process would be more susceptible to changing their scouting eval based on a mental eval than most teams.
Royce White? Royce Young is a writer for the Thunder. I had no clue who was being referenced but eventually landed on White. ¯\(°_O)/¯
Yep. This feels like the baseline.
Danny & Co probably had Fultz, Ball, Tatum, Jackson in a dead heat at the time. Celtics were leaning towards more length (Tatum or Jackson) since our roster was full of guards at that point: IT4, Smart, Rozier, Brown. They figured the Lakers were all in on Lonzo and Sixers wanted Fultz. Both Jackson and Tatum came into 2016 as the top college freshman, so they had tracked them for a while. Saw what they liked from both, Jackson (some off the court issues) stood them up, Tatum (impressive work-out) was the pick. Plus they added a high-end pick (asset) for a potentially top-heavy 2018 draft.
Probably as simple as that, but I fully expect the postscript narrative to change by the end of this season.
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Because we'd have a lot less to talk about on this message board?
However, I really do wonder what Fultz said when Danny asked him about his knee.
BTW, someone with more time on his or her hands than we do put together this great video showing the evolution of Fultz's jumper. No conclusions drawn but it's damn interesting to see.
"Don't worry, I can totally adjust my shooting form to compensate."
I really believe that Danny had Tatum ranked as his #1 prospect in the draft. Or at least as the best fit for the Celtics.
When he made the trade, he stated that he'd pick the player at 3 that he would have taken at 1. A much safer statement would have been that they had the top three guys rated so closely that the drop off from 1 to 3 was worth picking up the extra pick. He'd only say what he said if he was comfortable being on record that he had Tatum as the top guy.
When he made the trade, he stated that he'd pick the player at 3 that he would have taken at 1. A much safer statement would have been that they had the top three guys rated so closely that the drop off from 1 to 3 was worth picking up the extra pick. He'd only say what he said if he was comfortable being on record that he had Tatum as the top guy.
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Absolutely. I also wonder what his answer was to "why did you only shoot 65% from the FT line at UW?" Also: Were teams looking for him to become a John Stockton/Kevin Johnson or a Russell Westbrook /James Harden? Perhaps a Jason Kidd?
I didn't know much about Fultz coming out of his 1-and-done year, but one of my personal red flags- especially and specifically for guards- is when they cannot shoot free throws. 64% is a joke for an NBA point guard, let alone a #1 pick. Virtually all of the consensus Top 50 NBA point guards shot/shoot at least 75% and most are well above 80%. Perhaps he will get better and perhaps this can be chalked up to small sample size. But this shoulder injury business and current FUGLY form are not promising.
Freshman comps: Fultz (2017: R1/1) could very well become Philly's own Marcus Smart (2014: R1/6). EDIT: My graph comparing freshman stats for the duo sucks and is out of alignment.
And Memo to Philly: If Markelle cannot hit the damn rim on two consecutive free throws, he is probably injured and shouldn't be on the court trying to be Mo Cheeks or A.I..
Fultz is supposed to be "Harden." He's definitely not Stockton or Jason Kidd, and I can't see him putting up the assists numbers Harden does. I'm also not sure how Smart is comparable since Smart is a decent FT shooter. There's always Avery Bradley who, while not a PG, shot .545 from the FT line in college. Granted it was on half the sample size as Fultz. Players do improve from the line, though. Chris Webber and Karl Malone are also examples, but obviously not PGs.
As for Fultz, he took all of 126 3 pointers and 168 FTs. I'm guessing 168 FT's isn't really that small a sample as FT% is far less volatile than 3 point %, but 126 3's isn't really a sample at all. We saw Smart take 272 3's his rookie year and hit 33.5% of them, just to follow it up with a .253 on 241 attempts and .283 on 332.
As for Fultz, he took all of 126 3 pointers and 168 FTs. I'm guessing 168 FT's isn't really that small a sample as FT% is far less volatile than 3 point %, but 126 3's isn't really a sample at all. We saw Smart take 272 3's his rookie year and hit 33.5% of them, just to follow it up with a .253 on 241 attempts and .283 on 332.
In 2+ decades of following sports I don't remember ever hearing of this injury.
Any docs to chime in? Muscle imbalance sounds kind of made up.
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Muscle imbalance is when the muscles on either side of a joint are providing different tensions (often one's been weakened by injury), thus limiting mobility.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_imbalance chimes in:
"Symptoms can vary depending on what stage their muscular imbalance is, functional or pathological, but commonly exhibit small tissue damage or lesions accompanied by a change in muscle movement patterns.Symptoms may occur after injury or surgery, where the recuperation of the joint affected is left untreated causing either tension or restriction to flexibility and strength of the prime movers.
...
There are a variety of areas that can be affected, each causing different symptoms hence there are also different treatments available, but in general cases muscle strengthening techniques were developed for the use on the weak or tight muscles."
For more in-depth discussion of scapular muscle imbalance in particular, this looks good without being insanely technical:
Scapular muscle imbalance: implications for shoulder pain and pathology; the full article is available here: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ann_Lucado/publication/264253819_Narrative_Review_Scapular_muscle_imbalance_implications_for_shoulder_pain_and_pathology/links/53d62e2e0cf228d363ea3fa3.pdf
Not a doctor, but having pitched for a number of years, I'm familiar with muscle imbalances being an underlying cause of shoulder impingement. Can't say I ever remember hearing the injury occurring in a basketball player though.
Most common muscle imbalance I see is Patellofemoral syndrome. The muscles on one side of the leg are stronger then the other and the underside of the patella gets dragged onto one side of the patellofemoral groove instead of down the middle. It doesn’t matter unless you use your knees a lot (ie run). Markelle’s injury could be the result of working out excessively, but unwisely, over the summer.
Do a few too many military presses without near perfect form, as one might do trying to turn a skinny kids body into something ready for an NBA beating, and you can wreck your shoulder in a hurry. Hopefully it recovers with just R&R
That makes sense, but if it was simply lifting with wrong form, one would think this wouldn't be the first time we've heard about it in this setting, no?
Just a weird story and I hope he gets healthy.
No idea what's up with Fultz, but sometimes it's volume, not form. A kid putting in extra work can do pretty good damage even with good form and the correct poundage.
In my limited lifting experience, shoulders are one of the areas particularly prone to volume issues. And "playing through it" is probably a common mistake.
P.s. The staff should have put a stop to it sooner, if this is the case, and started treatment. But I can see someone so young wanting to keep going and not knowing that he should escalate the issue.
From what I recall Fultz didn't hire agent representation until very late in the process only weeks before the draft. I'm pro-agent in this day and age (it isn't like the scammers of years ago) as I've spoken of its advantages and having professional representations team of trainers/workout facilities at your disposal would help prevent someone like Fultz winging his workouts on his own.
What are the Sixers doing? I can't imagine how this helps anything.
https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultz-is-shooting-left-handed-jumpers-for-som-1820184159
https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultz-is-shooting-left-handed-jumpers-for-som-1820184159
Just idiotic, management should know the balance needed here to keep him in shape and not expose him but it just seems to be farther and farther down the rabbit hole. I do on a side note hate these type of social media posts as it could have been one of 3 shots he put up screwing around team-mates. Nothing against you Silverdude - just more a statement on social media as often quick snap shots tell very little of the story - having said that with this organizations track record it puts in question what he's doing at this point as historical can apply...
From the article:
Markelle Fultz is running 4-on-0 drills with coaches on the far court. Have seen him take about 5 jumpers so far...all left handed.
12:12 PM - Nov 6, 2017
Markelle Fultz is running 4-on-0 drills with coaches on the far court. Have seen him take about 5 jumpers so far...all left handed.
12:12 PM - Nov 6, 2017
Don't see what the big deal is. He can't shoot right handed so he shoots left-handed to stave off the boredom? I don't think practicing with one's left hand hurts the mechanics of the other shot.
Clarity tweets here:
"Some clarity on today: at this stage of his PT program, Fultz is not yet shooting right handed jumpers, per team source."
"Fultz is cleared for other work (which we saw) like layups with his dominant hand, but there are no plans to switch his shooting hand"
Clarity tweets here:
"Some clarity on today: at this stage of his PT program, Fultz is not yet shooting right handed jumpers, per team source."
"Fultz is cleared for other work (which we saw) like layups with his dominant hand, but there are no plans to switch his shooting hand"
If he is having range of motion issues and strength issues with his right shoulder, I wouldn't want him doing left handed jumpers. He is still bringing that arm up to support the left hand shot, and going through many of the same motions without the wrist/arm push and extension at the end. I missed the 4-0 drills comment with multiple jumpers left handed - everything just seems crazier upon more information coming out. This just seems so odd, glad it's not happening with the Celtics... I generally want this kid to be successful, I hope he gets the chance.
p.s. on the chair shooting, we did this once on a rehab deal with a knee injury for a player. Lowered the hoop to the same release point height and they worked on shooting mechanics. Ended up working very well for this player.
p.s. on the chair shooting, we did this once on a rehab deal with a knee injury for a player. Lowered the hoop to the same release point height and they worked on shooting mechanics. Ended up working very well for this player.
If his shoulder is injured to the point that he changed his entire motion because he's having trouble lifting his arm over his head without pain, why is he stressing that shoulder at all? In the video he's still using it as the guide hand.
As a former mediocre high school basketball player, I can attest to the fact that hurting ones dominant side of the body (I dislocated my right elbow) and using the other arm to shoot (I shot free throws and all layups with my left hand for the rest of the season after missing a couple months) had no ill effect on my shot when I recovered.
I was still a terrible shooter. Just no worse off
I was still a terrible shooter. Just no worse off
This made me laugh.
If I'm Philly I'm all for having my young stud PG work on his left hand.
Whenever I injure my right hand and have to switch to my left, it's like a whole new experience.
It's no big deal. He can be coached without contact and when it's appropriate to shoot in that left handed is fine.
Furthermore, many coaches (and not just in the NBA) have players shoot with their off hand, or do something unnatural and hard, so that when they can go back to normal it feels natural and easier.
Coach Nick for example suggested just that. (Basketball breakdown)
It's no big deal. I just want this all to be over for a death of hot takes.
Who would go number 1 in a redraft. Ainge fleeced the sixers. I mean enough. These kids are drafted for the best part of a decade if they pan out ffs.
Who would go number 1 in a redraft is interesting because the same size is still SO SO small, but Fultz' stuff is weird enough that I think it probably does go Tatum #1 (which apparently is what Ainge had wanted all along).
I wonder if London would be so dismissive if the 76ers had flipped 1 for Tatum plus another high lotto pick
I'm genuinely curious: if the Sixers had the #1 pick, who would you take in a redraft?
Even if we totally discount the vastly more auspicious first month of Tatum's career, he just seems to me like a much better fit than Fultz alongside Simmons.
I'd take Fultz. I was clear on my love for him when the Celtics still had the pick. I'd consider Ball, but he's done nothing to change my views, despite being a good fit I don't think he can be a primary initiator.
Tatum is a wing, the Sixers have Redick, Covington, Simmons, maybe Saric, Anderson, TLC, Stauskas and Kormaz.
The sixers have Bayless (puke) and TJ as point guards.
In terms of the short and long term they need a guard.
I also don't care remotely that Tatum is shooting well on wide open threes. He's hit one single contested three. He's MUCH better defensively off the bat that I thought, but neither of those things change the dynamic, The sixers have a stud 3&D guy and a bunch of guys they need to figure out. I'm optimistic on TLC and I'm very interested in Korkmaz offensively.