NY offseason 2015/2016

Wingack

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Yankees apparently talking to both the M's and D'Backs about Gardner.

I would be surprised to see Cashman try to get a young cheap lefty for him like Paxton or Corbin.
 

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Yankees apparently talking to both the M's and D'Backs about Gardner.

I would be surprised to see Cashman try to get a young cheap lefty for him like Paxton or Corbin.
Sherman specifically mentioned Paxton in his story this morning
 

jon abbey

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So I will keep updating this as appropriate, after the Murphy/Hicks deal, here's where NY is currently:

C: McCann
1B: Teixeira
2B: Ackley/Refsnyder
SS: Gregorius
3B: Headley
LF: Gardner
CF: Ellsbury
RF: Beltran
DH: A-Rod

bench: Romine/Sanchez, Refsnyder/Ackley, backup SS/3B, Hicks

rotation: Tanaka, Eovaldi, Severino, Pineda, Sabathia
bullpen: ???, ???, ???, Warren, Wilson, Betances, Miller
 

Wingack

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Several interesting rumors swirling around on Twitter yesterday. Yankees talking with Indians about trading Gardner to Indians for a starter (great idea!). Yankees also looking to deal Miller for a Kimbrel-esque package (another great idea!).
 

JimD

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Is trading Miller such a smart move, though? Why not keep him and Betances and build a top pen around them? The Yankees rotation is not exactly filled with starters who can be relied upon to go deep into games.
 

Murderer's Crow

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Is trading Miller such a smart move, though? Why not keep him and Betances and build a top pen around them? The Yankees rotation is not exactly filled with starters who can be relied upon to go deep into games.
Because they've done that for the past several years and it's yielded no results. They have holes to fill with few assets with which to fill them in a trade.
 

StuckOnYouk

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At this point isn't Gardner a slightly above average 32-year old making 13 mil?
What kind of starter are you expecting in return?
 

jon abbey

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They have holes to fill with few assets with which to fill them in a trade.
The problem is kind of the opposite, they don't really have holes to fill as they have guys under contract for pretty much every position, and they have plenty of assets for potential trades, Cashman just (rightly) refuses to use them as he's attempting to get the team younger over a multi-year stretch.

The closest thing to a genuine hole is 2B, and even there, it's possible an Ackley/Refsnyder platoon will end up being more productive/cost-effective than whoever they managed to bring in to bump them.
 

jon abbey

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I mean, if they add a SP, especially one getting paid enough so that he is essentially guaranteed a spot, how do they make room for him with the current group of guys they have? Tanaka and Sabathia aren't going anywhere, not sure why you'd bump Eovaldi or Severino. That does leave a 5th spot, but they already have Pineda and Warren and Nova all under contract and competing for that spot.

Dumping Nova would be relatively easy and painless, Warren could go back to the bullpen or even stretch out in AAA until needed, but unless they could somehow dump Sabathia (super unlikely without swallowing almost all of the final two years of his massive deal), I don't see how they really fit in a new SP, and I don't think they should give up on Pineda yet (not that they've shown any signs of wanting to do this).
 

JimD

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Because they've done that for the past several years and it's yielded no results. They have holes to fill with few assets with which to fill them in a trade.
I'd disagree with that assessment. 'No results' is what the Red Sox achieved the last two years, at least as far as on-field success is concerned. The Miller-Betances bullpen helped prop up an inconsistent Yankees starting rotation and was a key strength for a team that won 87 games and earned a playoff berth. In theory I get what they're thinking - trade Miller, make Betances your closer and promote/trade/sign a setup guy to replace him, but in practice it could blow up in their faces.
 

simplicio

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It's certainly a shift from trying to add Kimbrel at the deadline. Are they thinking that with the success of the Royals pen over the last two years and the Sox Kimbrel trade, there's a new market inefficiency in closer valuations? Keith Law today said he thought moving Miller makes no sense unless there's something wrong with him.
 

Wingack

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I'd disagree with that assessment. 'No results' is what the Red Sox achieved the last two years, at least as far as on-field success is concerned. The Miller-Betances bullpen helped prop up an inconsistent Yankees starting rotation and was a key strength for a team that won 87 games and earned a playoff berth. In theory I get what they're thinking - trade Miller, make Betances your closer and promote/trade/sign a setup guy to replace him, but in practice it could blow up in their faces.
As I have said before, Cashman has shown a consistent ability to build a very strong bullpen from pieces he picks off the scrapheap. What he hasn't been able to do with much success until recently is develop young talent. He has however over the past couple of seasons done a nice job of trading for young talent.

Trading Miller, who is just a very good relief pitcher, for players that could be every day players is a smart move.
 

jon abbey

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As I have said before, Cashman has shown a consistent ability to build a very strong bullpen from pieces he picks off the scrapheap.
Who are you referring to here, because most of the reliable relievers they've had in recent years (and all of the closers) either came from the farm system or as high-priced FAs? They spent all last season trying unsuccessfully to find a second reliable RH reliever behind Betances, until finally they were forced to move one of their more reliable starters (Warren) there to fill the role.
 

Wingack

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Well, putting together a good bullpen out of pieces developed from the minor leagues is part of that. Epply, Kelley and Rapada are a couple of examples that gave the Yankees quality innings at on time or another in recent years.
 

jon abbey

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Kelley was already a solid mid-bullpen guy for SEA when they traded Abe Almonte for him. Rapada was a good LOOGY for one season, effective but awful against RHB. Eppley I had to google as I barely remember him, he also had one good season for NY in low leverage situations.

I do agree that Cashman and NY have been very good at bringing relievers up through the farm system, besides all of the ones for their own team, Melancon and Clippard came from the NY system. I don't know if the system is so deep in relief prospects right now, though. None of the countless guys they tried over the course of last season especially distinguished themselves, Diego Moreno's insane relief outing in TEX was the one major exception, and he got hurt and went out for the season a few days later.
 

jon abbey

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LA could probably do better, but I hope Cashman is looking into Puig. Gardner and Pineda and a prospect like Jagielo, maybe?
 

Wingack

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Kelley was already a solid mid-bullpen guy for SEA when they traded Abe Almonte for him. Rapada was a good LOOGY for one season, effective but awful against RHB. Eppley I had to google as I barely remember him, he also had one good season for NY in low leverage situations.

I do agree that Cashman and NY have been very good at bringing relievers up through the farm system, besides all of the ones for their own team, Melancon and Clippard came from the NY system. I don't know if the system is so deep in relief prospects right now, though. None of the countless guys they tried over the course of last season especially distinguished themselves, Diego Moreno's insane relief outing in TEX was the one major exception, and he got hurt and went out for the season a few days later.
I hear what you are saying. But like I said, I think relievers are much more obtainable than solid everyday players. Especially young controllable players. And I would trade any non-Mariano reliever for young controllable assets like that.

LA could probably do better, but I hope Cashman is looking into Puig. Gardner and Pineda and a prospect like Jagielo, maybe?
I fully support this.
 

Murderer's Crow

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As I have said before, Cashman has shown a consistent ability to build a very strong bullpen from pieces he picks off the scrapheap. What he hasn't been able to do with much success until recently is develop young talent. He has however over the past couple of seasons done a nice job of trading for young talent.

Trading Miller, who is just a very good relief pitcher, for players that could be every day players is a smart move.
This is a better version of the argument I was trying to make. Cashman and Girardi have shown they can build a strong bullpen or utilize what we have to at least create a consistent one. Dealing from the bullpen isn't as large a risk as it may seem.
 

jon abbey

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Not so sure about Gardner for Castro, Castro is only 25 still but is owed $37M for the next four years and has been nothing special on offense or defense in recent years. Maybe another piece coming from the Cubs there?
 

Wingack

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Not so sure about Gardner for Castro, Castro is only 25 still but is owed $37M for the next four years and has been nothing special on offense or defense in recent years. Maybe another piece coming from the Cubs there?
He did finish the season last year blazing hot for the past two months if I recall correctly.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Gardner wasn't exactly great last year and isn't getting any younger. I'd be surprised if the Cubs were willing to throw in more to a Castro swap. Although he's been iffy, Castro costs less than Gardner per year and would save the Yankees in luxury tax payments (right?)...
 

jon abbey

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He did have a great final six weeks to the regular season, although he had a pretty bad postseason after that:

.575 OPS through Aug 22 (458 PAs)
1.041 OPS from Aug 23-Oct 4 (120 PAs)
.494 OPS in the postseason (35 PAs)
 

E5 Yaz

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Yankees also have discussed trading Gardner in a deal to the Cubs for Starlin Castro, according to Fiensand.

Something is going to go down today.
It's roster-setting day. Where are the Yankees in terms of the 40-man?
 

Wingack

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Gardner wasn't exactly great last year and isn't getting any younger. I'd be surprised if the Cubs were willing to throw in more to a Castro swap. Although he's been iffy, Castro costs less than Gardner per year and would save the Yankees in luxury tax payments (right?)...
Yeah, it would be better luxury tax wise. Honestly, what I ultimately really like is the apparent concerted effort to get younger. In my fantasy situation, the Yankees would deal Gardner for a young position player like Castro and with Gardner gone the Yankees can go out sign Jayson Hayward. Then the Yankees would have a several young position players locked in around the diamond with Bird and Judge looking at permanent roles in 2017.

And if the Yankees can trade Miller for a young starter, even better.
 

jon abbey

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In my fantasy situation, the Yankees would deal Gardner for a young position player like Castro and with Gardner gone the Yankees can go out and sign Jason Hayward.
Not sure I see that happening even if they manage to move Gardner, I think then they'd go with Hicks/Ellsbury/Beltran, Ackley as the 4th guy, Judge waiting in the wings, Mason Williams and Slade Heathcott as depth. I think they're going to do all they can to avoid signing anyone to a big deal.
 

Wingack

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Not sure I see that happening even if they manage to move Gardner, I think then they'd go with Hicks/Ellsbury/Beltran, Ackley as the 4th guy, Judge waiting in the wings, Mason Williams and Slade Heathcott as depth. I think they're going to do all they can to avoid signing anyone to a big deal.
Ooh, I think they are going to sign someone. And if they do, I want them to sign someone that is Jayson Heyward's age.
 

jon abbey

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I've said it many times before, I am a big backer of print journalism, bought 3-4 papers every day for many years and still buy the Post, but the Daily News can't fold soon enough for me. Pretty much nothing original that they write is worth taking seriously, awful paper.
 

jon abbey

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Johnny Barbato, Rookie Davis and Ben Gamel all added to the 40 man roster.

I was going to guess Gamel and Davis, but nice to see Barbato too, he is the relief prospect NY got from SD for Shawn Kelley last December. Barbato was mediocre in AA last year, but insanely good after being promoted to AAA, 25 13 1 1 11 26, obviously too many walks but a 0.36 ERA and a .159 BAA is impressive. He is 23, and will be one of many candidates fighting for spots in the back end of the NY bullpen this year.
 

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Yeah, it would be better luxury tax wise. Honestly, what I ultimately really like is the apparent concerted effort to get younger. In my fantasy situation, the Yankees would deal Gardner for a young position player like Castro and with Gardner gone the Yankees can go out sign Jayson Hayward. Then the Yankees would have a several young position players locked in around the diamond with Bird and Judge looking at permanent roles in 2017.

And if the Yankees can trade Miller for a young starter, even better.
So does Judge take over in CF in 2017 if the Yankees signed Heyward? Or would Heyward go to left? A lot of Heyward's value is tied up in being a good RF and Judge is supposed to have a really good arm, but not great range. With LF being bigger in Yankees Stadium, maybe it makes sense to put Heyward there?
 

Wingack

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So does Judge take over in CF in 2017 if the Yankees signed Heyward? Or would Heyward go to left? A lot of Heyward's value is tied up in being a good RF and Judge is supposed to have a really good arm, but not great range. With LF being bigger in Yankees Stadium, maybe it makes sense to put Heyward there?
I can't speak to Judge's defense, maybe one of the prospect heads out there can. But yeah, I would stick one in either corner and if Hicks can show he can stick it at the plate, I would make him the CF, slide Ellsbury to DH. Problem is ARod will still be around clogging up DH in 2017.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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I like the idea of trading Beltran (maybe include cash as well to get it done) to an AL team that needs offense and doesn't have a DH. In turn, the Yankees sign Heyward, giving the Yankees an OF of Hicks, Ellsbury, and Heyward. Beltran is coming off a pretty solid offensive year and you would think that someone would be interested in him for one season. However, does Beltran have a no-trade clause?

The Yankees would get younger and more athletic. Heyward is obviously great defensively and he could have some big offensive seasons in Yankees stadium.
 
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jon abbey

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It's not totally clear if it's a partial or full no-trade, but Beltran definitely has some kind of veto power there. Also, NY still has Gardner for that OF mix.
 

DanoooME

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And the DH crowd is getting bigger and bigger with Hanley allegedly on the market and Chris Carter and Pedro Alvarez just non-tendered.
 

Wingack

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Well, that is why trading Gardner and keeping Hicks as a 4th outfielder for the year and signing Heyward is the way to go. Then in 2017, you have an outfield of Heyward/Ellsbury/and either Hicks or Judge. Then in 2018, after ARod is gone finally, Ellsbury can become the full-time DH.
 

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I haven't watched much NNY baseball. Has Ellsbury really become that much of a defensive liability. He never had an arm but his speed allows him to cover ground even if he doesn't get good jumps
 

jon abbey

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Meantime back in the real world, there are more Cashman interviews today where he makes it even more clear he's not going after any big FAs like Heyward, and he doesn't think Gardner or Miller will be moved. I think there's an increasingly large chance what we have currently will basically be NY's team going into spring training, which I'm OK with.
 

foulkehampshire

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Meantime back in the real world, there are more Cashman interviews today where he makes it even more clear he's not going after any big FAs like Heyward, and he doesn't think Gardner or Miller will be moved. I think there's an increasingly large chance what we have currently will basically be NY's team going into spring training, which I'm OK with.
We've heard that one before though. Cashman is a pro at spreading disinformation.