Ok, I admit I was Wrrrrr. wrrrrr. wrong about this team.

jaytftwofive

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Remember the Happy Days episode when Fonzie had to admit to Ralph that he was wrong? Anyway like some of us I was not crazy about the Irving trade. I thought we gave up too much, especially after The Cavs extorted us for the other pick. Then when Hayward went down I thought it might be a long year. I am extremely happy to say I was wrong. Kyrie Irving is that good!!! I really thought defensively we would be hurting but I was wrong about that. What a great year it has been. And for anybody to complain about anything???? Come on relax, sit back and enjoy this run. 31-10 at mid-season. Anybody admit they didn't like the make up of this team pre-season?
 

JakeRae

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Remember the Happy Days episode when Fonzie had to admit to Ralph that he was wrong? Anyway like some of us I was not crazy about the Irving trade. I thought we gave up too much, especially after The Cavs extorted us for the other pick. Then when Hayward went down I thought it might be a long year. I am extremely happy to say I was wrong. Kyrie Irving is that good!!! I really thought defensively we would be hurting but I was wrong about that. What a great year it has been. And for anybody to complain about anything???? Come on relax, sit back and enjoy this run. 31-10 at mid-season. Anybody admit they didn't like the make up of this team pre-season?
I'm not convinced I was wrong about Kyrie. I think he's basically been who I thought he was. That was always a very good player, but so is IT. But, I was wrong about the trade. That's largely because I was wrong about the Nets. They are good enough that the Nets pick isn't the asset I though it was (and that the Cavs did). I also may have been wrong about Jae Crowder. I'm not sure yet if he's just had trouble fitting in in Cleveland, or if he is struggling this season because of the tragedy he endured in the off-season (which would be completely normal and reasonable) or if he really isn't very good away from Brad Stevens. I lean toward it being one of the first two and still think the Cavs will end up being better this year because of the trade, although I'm less confident in that than I was.

That said, the trade is a clear long term positive for the Celtics. Brown and Tatum are playing at a level where Crowder isn't really missed, and likely won't be in the future when Hayward is healthy. Even with my reservations Irving over IT is an upgrade both in health and youth and is better for team building. With the Nets pick looking like it'll be around 8-16, the Celtics gave up much less than I thought and had less need for one of the valuable pieces they did give up.

That brings me to my next admission. I was very wrong about this team. Brown and Tatum have both been much better than I expected. Much much better. Horford has also been much better than I thought this year and looks more like the guy I thought we were signing. Rozier has taken huge steps forward. And Theis has seamlessly established himself as a rotation player. But, the core fact is both Brown and Tatum have massively exceeded my expectations. The people who thought Brown's defensive flashes last year portended an elite defender this year were right. He has improved extraordinarily on the defensive end. Tatum has been better than any 19 year old has a right to be. This team looks like, with Hayward, they are a true contender, and I did not expect that.
 

lovegtm

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Edit: deleted, don't want to rehash IT vs. Kyrie as a defender.
 
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Manzivino

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Do you think the development impact of Smart's 90 minutes of playoff basketball in 2015 was worth the difference between Rozier and Winslow/Turner in the draft? There's a big difference in value between the experience of a deep playoff run and getting abused in the first round, and this team isn't matching up with any healthy Cavs/Raptors/Wizards/Bucks team.

I'm not saying they should intentionally tank, just that making the playoffs this season shouldn't be a priority at this point. They should make it by default barring any other major injuries, but playing Brown/Tatum 30 minutes a game is the mission now even if it leads to the lottery.
I’m not sure I could have been more wrong about the bolded. They may not win the East but they’re not getting abused by anyone. Brown has come much further along than I expected and obviously Tatum is a revelation. This was right after their first win of the season, before they rattled off 15 more in a row, which goes to show you shouldn’t make definitive proclamations 3 games into the season.
 

bigq

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I also may have been wrong about Jae Crowder. I'm not sure yet if he's just had trouble fitting in in Cleveland, or if he is struggling this season because of the tragedy he endured in the off-season (which would be completely normal and reasonable)
I'm curious what the tragedy was? Google did not have an answer that I could find.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Remember the Happy Days episode when Fonzie had to admit to Ralph that he was wrong? Anyway like some of us I was not crazy about the Irving trade. I thought we gave up too much, especially after The Cavs extorted us for the other pick. Then when Hayward went down I thought it might be a long year. I am extremely happy to say I was wrong. Kyrie Irving is that good!!! I really thought defensively we would be hurting but I was wrong about that. What a great year it has been. And for anybody to complain about anything???? Come on relax, sit back and enjoy this run. 31-10 at mid-season. Anybody admit they didn't like the make up of this team pre-season?
Here's the thing about Kyrie. What he did against the Cs in game 4 of the playoffs last year - take over a game when all five players on the opposing team know that he's going to get the ball and he's going to have to score - is incredibly important in the playoffs and isn't something I think IT4 could do as consistently as Kyrie.

And even if the BRK pick was better than it was, DA was right in that whoever the Cs picked (not including Donecic) would probably have a multi-year development curve.

I don't know how DA keeps it all together but I hope that we get to see Al and JB and JT and Kyrie and Hayward make a playoff run one of these years.
 

The Social Chair

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This team has blown away the expectations I had following Hayward's injury. Not only are they playing great but they are incredibly entertaining on a night to night basis. Kyrie makes my jaw drop like no Boston athlete since Randy Moss.

My 5 favorite games of the first half.


Vs Warriors
Vs Rockets
@ the Mavs (the Kyrie comeback)
@ the Pacers (the steal)
Vs the Hornets (no Kyrie or Al)
 

Koufax

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I was crazy to be upset that the Celtics had thrown in Ante Zizic, who I thought was going to be a sleeper for rookie of the year. He's a sleeper, all right, bouncing back and forth to the G league. I should have focused on the big picture, not the side pieces.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Zizic had lots of good press at this time last year, and I think he has a legit future in the league. But, a lower-impact future than it might have been, given the league trending away from bigs who don't space the floor.
 

gingerbreadmann

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I was crazy to be upset that the Celtics had thrown in Ante Zizic, who I thought was going to be a sleeper for rookie of the year. He's a sleeper, all right, bouncing back and forth to the G league. I should have focused on the big picture, not the side pieces.
The day after the KG trade, I went on to Celtics.com and left a three-paragraph message on their "Contact Us" feedback page explaining to Danny Ainge in no uncertain terms that including Ryan Gomes in the deal was going to tip the scales on the deal and haunt us forever.

10 years later, I, too, had a very hard time rationalizing the totally reckless inclusion of Zizic in the Irving trade.

Some instincts are hard to kick -- or, some of us never learn. :)
 

lovegtm

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I liked the team a lot pre-season, but I was very wrong about Jaylen Brown. I didn't see him hitting anywhere near this level as a defender this soon, and also thought, after watching summer league, that he wasn't ready to do much against NBA players on the offensive end.

I also thought Horford was going to be a bit cooked on the defensive end.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I liked the team a lot pre-season, but I was very wrong about Jaylen Brown. I didn't see him hitting anywhere near this level as a defender this soon, and also thought, after watching summer league, that he wasn't ready to do much against NBA players on the offensive end.
He's still a work in progress, but even sine the beginning of the season he has made considerable progress.
 

DJnVa

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I’m not sure I could have been more wrong about the bolded. They may not win the East but they’re not getting abused by anyone. Brown has come much further along than I expected and obviously Tatum is a revelation. This was right after their first win of the season, before they rattled off 15 more in a row, which goes to show you shouldn’t make definitive proclamations 3 games into the season.
Well, the best part is you said they need to play Tatum/Brown 30 minutes, even if it leads to lottery. Well, they are. And it isn't :)

Brown's per 36 isn't all that different from last year, on the face of it, but his steals are up almost 50%, his boards up about 15%, fouls down, defense better. Just get that FT shooting cleaned up...
 
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lovegtm

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Brown's per 36 isn't all that different from last year, on the face of it, but his steals are up almost 50%, his boards up about 15%, fouls down, defense better. Just get that FT shooting cleaned up...
Right, his biggest areas of improvement are things that only show up in team/net rating/RPM type numbers, especially team defense and defensive positioning etc. And per 36 means a lot more when you're actually *playing* closer to 36, which his been able to do because of his across the board improvement.
 

Spelunker

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I hated trading the BKLN pick, and envisioned a nightmare scenario of LAL picking first, and BKLN second.

I know nothing.
 

moly99

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I'm not convinced I was wrong about Kyrie. I think he's basically been who I thought he was. That was always a very good player, but so is IT. But, I was wrong about the trade. That's largely because I was wrong about the Nets.
While the outgoing pieces in the trade have indeed turned out to be much worse than expected this year, Kyrie has gone from being one of the worst defenders in the NBA to an average defender. He is also forcing bad shots less often on the offensive end, though he is still a scorer rather than a distributor.

The Celtics version of Kyrie is demonstrably a better player than the Cleveland version of Kyrie.
 

amarshal2

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The day after the KG trade, I went on to Celtics.com and left a three-paragraph message on their "Contact Us" feedback page explaining to Danny Ainge in no uncertain terms that including Ryan Gomes in the deal was going to tip the scales on the deal and haunt us forever.

10 years later, I, too, had a very hard time rationalizing the totally reckless inclusion of Zizic in the Irving trade.

Some instincts are hard to kick -- or, some of us never learn. :)
This is amazing. Thanks for sharing.

I too was very wrong about most things. I hated the thinking that went into the Tatum/Fultz trade. Generally I prefer wisdom of crowds up top over hubris but boy does Danny look smart there.

I didn’t like the Al signing much because while he is worth the max, the real value in the max is in paying a guy who is worth much more than the max, the max. It’s still true but Al started a trend that helped them lure Hayward which I think will pay off. Also Al is a good player.

I hated the Kyrie trade because of the Brooklyn pick. I was probably right about IT + a 2018 top 5 pick not being worth Kyrie but wrong about the pick being top 5.

I also was a bit down on Jaylen. Not offensively but defensively he often just looked like he lacked any instinct. I wasn’t sure he was going to suddenly get that instinct as it didn’t seem necessarily learnable. But he made a huge leap. Very impressive.

Danny Ainge is really smart and knows a lot more than I do. I also think I’m not a total moron (could be wrong) and he’s a bit lucky too. Either way, in Danny I trust.
 

Eddie Jurak

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While the outgoing pieces in the trade have indeed turned out to be much worse than expected this year, Kyrie has gone from being one of the worst defenders in the NBA to an average defender. He is also forcing bad shots less often on the offensive end, though he is still a scorer rather than a distributor.

The Celtics version of Kyrie is demonstrably a better player than the Cleveland version of Kyrie.
I think Kyrie's defense is overrated - I think he's clearly the worst of the Celtics' starters, although 'average' may be fair. Still, he's an upgrade over IT. I think him being a scorer moreso than a distributor is partly by design - to my eye he plays off-ball more than IT did, and the offense runs through Smart and Horford a little more than it did last year. The changes in his shot selection have been subtle but moving in the direction of fewer long and mid-range 2s.
 

snowmanny

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This is amazing. Thanks for sharing.

I too was very wrong about most things. I hated the thinking that went into the Tatum/Fultz trade. Generally I prefer wisdom of crowds up top over hubris but boy does Danny look smart there.

I didn’t like the Al signing much because while he is worth the max, the real value in the max is in paying a guy who is worth much more than the max, the max. It’s still true but Al started a trend that helped them lure Hayward which I think will pay off. Also Al is a good player.

I hated the Kyrie trade because of the Brooklyn pick. I was probably right about IT + a 2018 top 5 pick not being worth Kyrie but wrong about the pick being top 5.

I also was a bit down on Jaylen. Not offensively but defensively he often just looked like he lacked any instinct. I wasn’t sure he was going to suddenly get that instinct as it didn’t seem necessarily learnable. But he made a huge leap. Very impressive.

Danny Ainge is really smart and knows a lot more than I do. I also think I’m not a total moron (could be wrong) and he’s a bit lucky too. Either way, in Danny I trust.

This all makes sense. Ainge over the past 4 years or so has been very smart with most of his moves and also generally lucky (the GH injury being a major exception), and you have to be both to build a winner in the NBA.

They've gone from crappy and hopeless to incredibly fun and very competitive in the regular season in a very short period of time. (I mean, the Sixers have followed "The Process" and overall it has been successful but four/five years ago these teams were in essentially the same spot and The C's have ended up in (I would argue) a better overall position and have been a hell of a lot more fun to watch along the way).

No matter what Ainge deserves a ton of credit, but it will likely take more smarts and more luck to take the next step to be competitive for a title.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think Kyrie's defense is overrated - I think he's clearly the worst of the Celtics' starters, although 'average' may be fair. Still, he's an upgrade over IT.
Being the "worse" defender in a starting lineup of JB, JT, Al, and Baynes (or even Morris) isn't such a bad thing as three of them are plus defenders; Baynes provides rim defense; and Morris has been good (particularly against LBJ) in the past.

Kyrie's been a lot more active on defense than I remember him on CLE (not that Brad would allow him to be not active) and his hands are plenty quick enough to generate steals and deflections. I suspect that Kyrie is pretty high on the BOS deflection list. Maybe not as high as Marcus but plenty high enough especially given the low expectations coming in.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Being the "worse" defender in a starting lineup of JB, JT, Al, and Baynes (or even Morris) isn't such a bad thing as three of them are plus defenders; Baynes provides rim defense; and Morris has been good (particularly against LBJ) in the past.

Kyrie's been a lot more active on defense than I remember him on CLE (not that Brad would allow him to be not active) and his hands are plenty quick enough to generate steals and deflections. I suspect that Kyrie is pretty high on the BOS deflection list. Maybe not as high as Marcus but plenty high enough especially given the low expectations coming in.
I'm not unhappy with him on D, and especially not about the full game. I just wouldn't call his defense a team strength.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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no stats or evidence to back this up, but i think the drop off in kyrie's defense is entirely due to being gassed. we saw him being a bit of a pest for stretches against the cavs, whether the intensity was due to the opponent or the two off days before the game, i would argue the end result is the same. he could stand to get his hands up to contest the mid range jumper a little more, which i think comes back to effort and energy.

in short, Kyrie looks tired. i would expect as the advantageous second half scheduled gets underway, we'll get the defensive effort we saw during the first 20 games of the season.
 

Jimbodandy

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I thought that they gave up too much for Kyrie, including the Brooklyn pick with no protection.

I thought that we shouldn't have traded away a shot at Markelle Fultz, even with the potential lottery pick coming back with Tatum, because it was heavily protected.

I am obviously a dumbass.
 

lovegtm

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I'm not unhappy with him on D, and especially not about the full game. I just wouldn't call his defense a team strength.
Yeah, it's important to keep in mind that "slightly below average" is another world compared to the IT Defensive Tire Fire. Kyrie doesn't have to be elite on that end, he just has to be not 5-8.
 

bschase2

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My son, who is 8, was watching the first game with me when GH went down. I spent the next couple of days explaining why the season was over, and he has spent the last few months reminding me that I was wrong, He also told me the Pats were going to win the Super Bowl last year. In the 3rd quarter. I have to start listening to this kid.
 

joe dokes

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The Celtics version of Kyrie is demonstrably a better player than the Cleveland version of Kyrie.
If it's possible, I think I underestimated how much better the Celtics version of brad Stevens is than the Cavs version.
 

moly99

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Yeah, it's important to keep in mind that "slightly below average" is another world compared to the IT Defensive Tire Fire. Kyrie doesn't have to be elite on that end, he just has to be not 5-8.
Kyrie was not much better than IT when he played for the Cavs, even with his height advantage.

If it's possible, I think I underestimated how much better the Celtics version of brad Stevens is than the Cavs version.
Stevens is great, but it's not like they had one bad coach in Cleveland that couldn't motivate Kyrie. Kyrie had three different coaches with the Cavs and refused to play defense for any of them.

I think the best explanation is that Cleveland's organization as a whole is not good at getting players to buy in to team basketball, while the Celtics are.
 

uk_sox_fan

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Whilst I agree with most of the sentiment in this thread that the IT-Kyrie trade was worth it, I don't think we should get carried away with denigrating the value of the Brooklyn pick. Yes, it's far less likely to be Top 5 than it seemed to be in the pre-season (probably 12.5% chance now vs ~65% or so before the season started), but the draft itself also seems to be far deeper than at least I had expected it to be. Per basketball-reference.com the weighted-average pick for the Nets (Cavs) is 8.2 right now which would yield something on the order of Mich St super-frosh Jared Jackson. That's a huge pick!

Again I'm not saying I regret the trade, but can you imagine having the possibility that the C's could get both Porter (e.g.) and Jackson in the draft next year?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Whilst I agree with most of the sentiment in this thread that the IT-Kyrie trade was worth it, I don't think we should get carried away with denigrating the value of the Brooklyn pick. Yes, it's far less likely to be Top 5 than it seemed to be in the pre-season (probably 12.5% chance now vs ~65% or so before the season started), but the draft itself also seems to be far deeper than at least I had expected it to be. Per basketball-reference.com the weighted-average pick for the Nets (Cavs) is 8.2 right now which would yield something on the order of Mich St super-frosh Jared Jackson. That's a huge pick!

Again I'm not saying I regret the trade, but can you imagine having the possibility that the C's could get both Porter (e.g.) and Jackson in the draft next year?
You mean without Kyrie and having to figure out what to do with IT4's contract? Sign me up for the current reality.

In the reality where people stopped trading with DA before last year's draft, I guess Smart moves into the starting lineup while IT rehabs. After GH goes down, I have to think the Cs are playing .500 ball at the best unless someone (Terry Rozier?) makes a huge leap because of increased minutes.

Cs probably get into the playoffs when IT4 comes back but without GH, I think they are probably bounced by CLE or TOR. Then they have to figure out what to do with IT4 and Smart while sweating out the ping pong balls.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I never really had much issue with the trade with Philly because I assumed Ainge had to have a really good idea of what he was doing in that instance before making that trade.

But count me among the people who thought including the Brooklyn pick in the Kyrie trade was a pretty significant overpay - I think many of us here (myself included) had just been talking about/thinking about those Brooklyn picks so long that we artificially inflated their value (don't get me wrong, it's still a significant asset, just hardly an untouchable one).

And while I did not think the season was over when GH went down, I did assume that they would muddle their way to a 4-6 seed or something and get bounced early in the playoffs. If you had asked me after that injury what the chances were that the Celtics would get the #1 seed in the East this year I probably would have said 10% or something.
 

chilidawg

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I still think the Kyrie trade was an overpay, but that's what accumulating all those assets was for, so I'm fine with it. I was always a fan of the pick swap because I didn't see Fultz as a clear #1. Sure didn't see the Celtics playing this well without GH, but I'm loving it.
 

Number45forever

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I was convinced they'd be a .500 team with Hayward out. I thought the defense was going to be bad anyway and that they were just coming into the season trying to outscore everyone.

Tatum and Brown have been a revelation. Kyrie is really good. They are much better on the boards than they were last season. Also, Brad is good. What a fun team.
 

Eddie Jurak

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You mean without Kyrie and having to figure out what to do with IT4's contract? Sign me up for the current reality.
This. They gave up (at best) a half season and playoffs of IT, an asset that turned out to be superfluous (Crowder), a legitimately good prospect but one with limited positional value in today’s NBA (Zizic), and a very valuable draft pick.

For a top 10 NBA player signed for 2 years, that seems more than fair.

They are going to have roster size trouble working another high pick into the mix next year anyway, they don’t need a second one.
 

the moops

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But count me among the people who thought including the Brooklyn pick in the Kyrie trade was a pretty significant overpay
I think this is right. The MEM pick wasn't getting it done, nor was any comobnation of players + LAC pick. So while it was too much, IMO, there was no other option.
 

nighthob

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Again I'm not saying I regret the trade, but can you imagine having the possibility that the C's could get both Porter (e.g.) and Jackson in the draft next year?
And maybe even Mykal Bridges because they were so mediocre this year!

We're not the 76ers, I will take a guy that's got a good case for being top 10 player in the NBA as well as a top five pick this year over a mid lottery selection that, if we're lucky, makes an all str team.
 

CPT Neuron

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I'm having as much fun watching this team as I had watching the early days of the Spurs in the late 90's/early 00's when I lived there.....just a really fun team to watch.
 

lovegtm

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Kyrie was not much better than IT when he played for the Cavs, even with his height advantage.
I'm kind of surprised at how quickly people have forgotten the Wizards' series. IT was an incredible liability due to his height, in a way that Kyrie simply isn't in the playoffs. I remember watching that series and saying to myself "there is zero chance that Brad or Danny want to re-sign IT to anything resembling a 4 year max after this", because they had tried everything to hide/work around his limitations, and it just couldn't be done.

This isn't wacky speculation either: the team made an immediate, concerted effort after the season to get longer and more athletic across the board, with incredibly good results on the defensive end.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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I'm kind of surprised at how quickly people have forgotten the Wizards' series. IT was an incredible liability due to his height, in a way that Kyrie simply isn't in the playoffs. I remember watching that series and saying to myself "there is zero chance that Brad or Danny want to re-sign IT to anything resembling a 4 year max after this", because they had tried everything to hide/work around his limitations, and it just couldn't be done.

This isn't wacky speculation either: the team made an immediate, concerted effort after the season to get longer and more athletic across the board, with incredibly good results on the defensive end.
Not just the Wizards series; Zach Lowe had a great piece on the zone defenses Brad implemented against the Bulls to hide IT:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19243080/zach-lowe-boston-celtics-hiding-isaiah-thomas-vs-chicago-bulls-nba
 

moly99

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I'm kind of surprised at how quickly people have forgotten the Wizards' series. IT was an incredible liability due to his height, in a way that Kyrie simply isn't in the playoffs.
I haven't forgotten that IT was/is a liability, and not just in the playoffs.

But I also haven't forgotten that for most of his career in Cleveland Kyrie did not bother trying to play defense. (Even in the playoffs he often jogged back up the court in transition, for example.) In Boston he is making an effort on defense, and that is a major factor in our ability to win games.
 

lovegtm

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I haven't forgotten that IT was/is a liability, and not just in the playoffs.

But I also haven't forgotten that for most of his career in Cleveland Kyrie did not bother trying to play defense. (Even in the playoffs he often jogged back up the court in transition, for example.) In Boston he is making an effort on defense, and that is a major factor in our ability to win games.
Yeah, but the degree of liability matters. Jogging up the court/not being awesome on D and being an incredibly exploitable target the other team gameplans everything around are just qualitatively different things. I recall that bowiac, who was very against the trade, noted that if all you cared about was playoff defense, and not regular season, Kyrie graded out as not that bad.

My purpose in pointing this all out is that there were a lot of reasons before this season to think that Kyrie would be a major upgrade over IT defensively in the playoffs. If you're only talking about the regular season, I agree that it's something of a surprise.
 

mauf

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I liked the Kyrie trade from the outset, but I couldn’t have been more wrong about Fultz-for-Tatum.

I think all of us underestimated how bad IT was on defense. Yes, Kyrie’s defense is better than it was in Cleveland, but he still gets exposed from time to time — no one’s confusing him with Gary Payton. Yet, the C’s have the league’s best defense, and other than Jaylen’s organic improvement (he’s much better than Crowder was last year), there aren’t any other obvious defensive upgrades.
 

Bergs

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I am lucky enough to be too generally NBA-ignorant to have had a real position on the Kyrie trade. I thought there was no way we could win with IT as the best player on the team, so I was "OK" with it, even though my more knowledgeable NBA fan friends told be Kyrie was a defensive liability. I am obviously very pleasantly surprised with this team. They are a ton of fun.
 

bowiac

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Yet, the C’s have the league’s best defense, and other than Jaylen’s organic improvement (he’s much better than Crowder was last year), there aren’t any other obvious defensive upgrades.
Getting rid of Bradley.