The draft picks and ping pong balls may not work out, but from a process perspective was this the best trade in NBA history?
One-sided NBA trades
- Thread starter tims4wins
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It's called the Ted Stepien Rule for a reason.
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/12/06/sports/everything-changes-on-the-cavaliers-but-the-face-of-failure.html?pagewanted=all
Was thinking the same. Other candidates?:
1. Lakers trade some no-name guy I can't remember to Utah for the pick that turns into Magic Johnson. Massive impact on NBA history, but from a 'process perspective', no better than any countless number of trades fleecing struggling franchises for their #1.
2. Celtics trade #1 pick (and Ricky Brown IIRC?) to Golden State for Robert Parish and the pick that turns into Kevin McHale. Shrewd in terms of the valuation of the players involved, but not outright slanted on the face of it.
3. Celtics trade Ed McCauley to St. Louis for pick that turns into Bill Russell. Inclined to discount this one in part because racism reportedly forced St. Louis' hand (they weren't sure if a black star would play down South).
4 & 5: Kareem to Lakers, Wilt Chamberlain to Lakers-- both of these trades were basically extortions IIRC. So, no "process perspective" points.
Others? Scottie Pippin to Chicago? Kobe to LA? Kawhi to SA?
Gerald Henderson to Seattle for pick that became Len Bias would have, um, nevermind
A real underrated great one was the Cavaliers trading Mo Williams and Jamario Moon to the 21-37 Clippers for Baron Davis' awful contract and their first round pick that year, which the Clippers somehow didn't protect at all.
Four months later the Cavaliers took Kyrie Irving with the pick.
If you believe the stories, Red got Walter Brown to promise the Rochester Royals owner that he would send the Ice Capades for a week if they promised not to take Russell #1.
(Edit: the decaying corpse of) Gail Goodrich was the guy the Jazz signed and the NBA awarded the pick that would be Magic Johnson as compensation.
Of course Bob McAdoo for ML Carr and the pick that eventually netted them Parish and McHale was a similar steal.
Dominique Wilkins for John Drew and Freeman Williams (Auerbach claimed he made a better offer).
Any of the first several times anyone traded for Moses Malone.
Of course Bob McAdoo for ML Carr and the pick that eventually netted them Parish and McHale was a similar steal.
Dominique Wilkins for John Drew and Freeman Williams (Auerbach claimed he made a better offer).
Any of the first several times anyone traded for Moses Malone.
At time it was made, the Lakers deal for Pau Gasol looked like it would belong on the list. As it turned out, his brother Marc has approached or exceeded his value (though timing better for Lakers with Pau)
Deal was:
Lakers get: Pau Gasol and a 2010 second round draft pick (Devin Ebanks).
Grizzlies get: Marc Gasol, Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, a 2008 1st round pick (Donte Greene) and a 2010 1st round pick (Greivis Vasquez).
Deal was:
Lakers get: Pau Gasol and a 2010 second round draft pick (Devin Ebanks).
Grizzlies get: Marc Gasol, Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, a 2008 1st round pick (Donte Greene) and a 2010 1st round pick (Greivis Vasquez).
Wow, I'll defer to people that dive deeper into analysis, but while Marc has turned into a very nice player, he has in no way shape or form even approached his brother's level. Pau is a likely HoFer (Basketball reference has him at 93%; Marc is at 0.5%). The trade looks better than it did the day it was made, but let's not go crazy here. Pau is a legit top 100 player in NBA history or at least in the argument. Marc doesn't sniff that.
We're not comparing full careers of both, though....we're talking about what was traded which takes out a bunch of Pau's career value.
Pau had 3.5 really impactful years for Lakers (2008-9 through 2011-12), a stub year when the trade occurred, and then two more much less impactful years at the end. Just because it's easy to find, cumulative VORP from basketballreference for those years is 23.3.
Marc, just for the same set of years, is at 22.1. And Marc is still there generating value, up to 30 for his career.
Obviously, it's hard to do these comparisons when you need to assess years of control and degree to which a team bought an advantage in resigning players, but I'm curious what metrics you'd look at to conclude the deal is (in retrospect) any kind of blowout win. Pau helped win titles, as I noted above, but Marc is the guy likely undervalued by many metrics because of his defensive advantage. I guess one can argue about 'high end' impact vs steadier but lower impact, too.
Pau had 3.5 really impactful years for Lakers (2008-9 through 2011-12), a stub year when the trade occurred, and then two more much less impactful years at the end. Just because it's easy to find, cumulative VORP from basketballreference for those years is 23.3.
Marc, just for the same set of years, is at 22.1. And Marc is still there generating value, up to 30 for his career.
Obviously, it's hard to do these comparisons when you need to assess years of control and degree to which a team bought an advantage in resigning players, but I'm curious what metrics you'd look at to conclude the deal is (in retrospect) any kind of blowout win. Pau helped win titles, as I noted above, but Marc is the guy likely undervalued by many metrics because of his defensive advantage. I guess one can argue about 'high end' impact vs steadier but lower impact, too.
The Nets sold Dr. J. to Philly in 1976 ("traded for cash" was the way it was officially reported I think). Probably would have been better to hang on to the good Doctor.
The Sixers - Sacramento trade is one of the worst I can think of.
Sacramento sent Stauskus, Landry, Jason Thompson, an unprotected 2019 first, and swap rights in 2017 for two second round picks.
Why? Because they didn't know about the stretch provision and wanted cap space to go after Wesley Matthews. Matthews then signed with Dallas.
Sacramento sent Stauskus, Landry, Jason Thompson, an unprotected 2019 first, and swap rights in 2017 for two second round picks.
Why? Because they didn't know about the stretch provision and wanted cap space to go after Wesley Matthews. Matthews then signed with Dallas.
Knicks get Dave DeBusschere from Detroit for Butch Komives and Walt Bellamy in 1968. Bellamy was a Hall of Famer (as was DeBusschere), but moving him allowed them to move Willis Reed to center and get a real forward to pair with Bradley and matchup with Gus Johnson of the Bullets. What helped make it one sided was the teams' post-trade trajectory. Knicks lost to Celts in 69 East, won in '70 & 73 and lost in finals in '72, and Pistons went into a run of suck that lasted pretty much til Chuck Daly came along and also traded Bellamy to Atlanta after 1 season for a guy who didn't play again.
That was the first year of the merger. Net owner Roy Boe couldn't afford entry into the NBA, which involved a payment to the league and another to the Knicks.
An all-time head scratcher—how do you make this deal without knowing you've got the target locked up? Agreements are made in principle all the time before being finalized. Used the space on Rondo and Bellinelli instead—reminiscent of the Nets clearing the deck for Lebron before ending up with Farmar, Outlaw, Morrow, and Petro as their big offseason signings.
Desperation is a terrible place to be as a GM. One of those scenarios, like any Billy King trade, where the smart GM on the other side asks a ridiculous price and the negotiation is either nonexistent or is limited to reducing one of the draft obligations to a pick swap instead of giving it away outright. Billy King was a "master" at this for Brooklyn—throwing in a pick swap under the brazen assumption that it won't vest (or perhaps the genius assumption that he wouldn't be around to be hurt by the swap anyway).
Bill Simmons wrote in his book that the trade was the equivalent of trading 1980 Sly Stallone and getting a couple hookers and Frank back in return.
Marc Gasol is well on his way to being a HoF player if he stays healthy (its really easy to make the HoF) and is a Top 15 player in the NBA and has been for some time.
Simmons, and many people for a few years, talked about that trade the same way Simmons talks about the Harden to Houston trade...
Marc 16/8 Gasol is a top 15 player and has been for some time? What's the metric? I glanced at last year's VORP on BRef, and he wasn't top 20. His brother was though.
edit: nevermind. That was sloppy. Close enough.
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Gasol is also averaging 20-6-4 this year with 2.5 stocks and shooting 46/40/83 on nearly 4 3pa per game. The fact that VORP rated Pau head of Marc last year just proves that VORP isn't very accurate when comparing two players. He's been the best Center in basketball for a while now, is the smartest defensive big man and probably the best passer as well. He has been the best player on a team that has won 60 percent of their games since 2010, in a loaded conference.
The team most unhappy with the Marc/Pau trade is the Boston Celtics. Which is why it comes up here so often, and with Simmons. Not only did Pau make the Lakers title contenders, but there were tons of rumors that Ainge was going after him and Memphis was asking for a ton more than what they eventually got from the Lakers (rumors, obviously)
However, at the time of the trade, Marc had been taken with the 48th pick in the previous draft and still hadn't played an NBA minute. So it worked out really great, but even if you give Memphis credit for amazing scouting, it would have worked out better if they had just gone ahead and acquired for next to nothing the 40th (or whatever) pick in the draft, and taken him.
However, at the time of the trade, Marc had been taken with the 48th pick in the previous draft and still hadn't played an NBA minute. So it worked out really great, but even if you give Memphis credit for amazing scouting, it would have worked out better if they had just gone ahead and acquired for next to nothing the 40th (or whatever) pick in the draft, and taken him.
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Many people at the time thought Joe Barry Carroll had big bust potential. Plus Red reportedly knew McHale would be there at #3. I recall "experts" thinking Red killed that deal.
I sorta hope Ainge can pull of something similar this year.
I sorta hope Ainge can pull of something similar this year.
Swap rights in 2016 AND 2017 to be precise. Though the odds of 2016 sixers being good was low, the free lottery balls in the event the Kings got lucky in the lottery make it have some value though.
The blow would have been softened if not for KAAAAAAAHN. One of the picks involved in the KG trade was Minny's 2009 1st rounder, which had previously been traded to the C's. Ended up at 6*, then Kahn traded Foye and Miller for #5 (nice move!), then this happened:
5: Wolves select Ricky Rubio
6: Wolves select Jonny Flynn
7: Warriors select Steph Curry
Kahn was clearly targeting point guards with five letter first names and five letter last names with at least one "y" in there somewhere, but tragically whiffed on the one who ended up an all-time great shooter.
*edit: This pick was protected when owned by the C's, so no, they never had a shot at drafting Curry.
In 1976 the Trailblazers selected the 21 year-old Moses Malone in the dispersal draft of the players from the old St. Louis ABA franchise-- but two months later they traded Malone to Buffalo for the draft pick that Buffalo used to select... Rick Robey.
Would gladly place a futures wager on this with you. Even perfect health, Marc Gasol is not making the HoF. Not happening.
You've got to come up with the money some other way -- take in a minority investor or something.
In the same vein, OKC trading Harden for a pu put platter headed by Kevin Martin. How much less is that franchise worth today because ownership wouldn't pay luxury tax for a few years to keep Durant/Westbrook/Harden together?
Not the worst, but pretty terrible.
http://allball.blogs.nba.com/2015/07/02/throwback-thursday-wilt-chamberlain-traded-to-lakers/
By the end of the 1967-68 season, Wilt Chamberlain was coming off an MVP season and had just led the Philadelphia 76ers to a league-best 62 victories and the Eastern Conference finals (which Philly lost to the Boston Celtics in Game 7). That playoff loss marked the third time in the last four seasons the 76ers had been KO’d by the Celtics and Philadelphia’s management was ready for a change.
They sent Chamberlain across the country to the Los Angeles Lakers for Jerry Chambers, Archie Clark and Darrall Imhoff on July 9, 1968, but Chamberlain still had plenty of good basketball left in his tank. He spent his final five campaigns in Los Angeles and helped the Lakers to the NBA Finals four times in those five seasons. The most notable season was 1971-72, in which he scored only 14.8 points per game. But his contributions came in other forms. At age 35, he managed to grab 19.2 rebounds per contest and was selected to the NBA All-Defensive First Team. His 1971-72 Lakers won a then-record 69 games and Chamberlain was a force in The Finals against the New York Knicks, claiming Finals MVP honors.
http://allball.blogs.nba.com/2015/07/02/throwback-thursday-wilt-chamberlain-traded-to-lakers/
By the end of the 1967-68 season, Wilt Chamberlain was coming off an MVP season and had just led the Philadelphia 76ers to a league-best 62 victories and the Eastern Conference finals (which Philly lost to the Boston Celtics in Game 7). That playoff loss marked the third time in the last four seasons the 76ers had been KO’d by the Celtics and Philadelphia’s management was ready for a change.
They sent Chamberlain across the country to the Los Angeles Lakers for Jerry Chambers, Archie Clark and Darrall Imhoff on July 9, 1968, but Chamberlain still had plenty of good basketball left in his tank. He spent his final five campaigns in Los Angeles and helped the Lakers to the NBA Finals four times in those five seasons. The most notable season was 1971-72, in which he scored only 14.8 points per game. But his contributions came in other forms. At age 35, he managed to grab 19.2 rebounds per contest and was selected to the NBA All-Defensive First Team. His 1971-72 Lakers won a then-record 69 games and Chamberlain was a force in The Finals against the New York Knicks, claiming Finals MVP honors.
No, the worst was probably when Chamberlain was traded to the Sixers for Paul Neumann, Connie Dierking (who left the Warriors at the end of the season), and Lee Shaffer (who retired immediately).
The garbage included a big expiring contract and two first-round picks. For a 31 year-old with a no-trade clause and tons of mileage on his odometer. The trade worked out one-sidedly, in that Boston immediately won a title and Minny gave up on / mismanaged most of the assets they received -- but it wasn't super lopsided per se.
Yeah you are correct. The management coaching around Wilt was tragic. It speaks to the immaturity of the NBA that maybe the greatest individual talent (I await the "Are you saying Lebron is the worst athlete of all time?! posts) was so poorly managed.
That trade has to put in context though. According to Dr. Jack, who was the GM at the time, Wilt indicated he would not play in Philly again, demanded a trade to the Lakers, and threatened to jump to the ABA if Sixers did not meet this demand. Hard to blame a GM for getting a limited return under those circumstances.
Outside of Boston, the deal was considered a gift from Kevin McHale when it happened.
Reading various books some say Wilt was almost on the verge of suicide when Philly writers and fans turned on him. Jerry West called him the "unhappiest" guy he ever knew, even after his success in LA.
But that had everything to do with the fact that McHale was a former Celtic and teammate of Ainge's, rather than what the Wolves actually got back for KG.
A young player with All Star potential, a likely lottery pick, a late first, cap space and a some spare parts/lottery tickets was a good haul for a 31 year old, impending free agent with a no trade clause. I think you have to judge based on process, rather than how things actually played out to evaluate a trade. How does that trade look if the Wolves had used the 2009 pick they got back (which was their own) on Curry or even Derozan instead of Johnny Flynn? Or what if KG gets injured in his first year instead of the second and the Celtics never win another title?
If process is metric, the Sauce Castillo trade gets my vote for the worst of all time. While Billy King's had a more far reaching damage, there was at least a ( albeit flawed) logic to it. Hindsight makes it easy to forget that lots of folks thought that the trade made the Nets a real challenge to the Heat and potential title contenders, which it had come to pass would have also dramatically downgraded the return the Celtics got. It would still have been an overpay, just not in the running for worst of all time.
Wait. I'm confused. Indiana had the number one pick and when Bird said he was staying in college traded down and drafted Robey 3rd (Klay's dad went #1).
There's an argument to be made that Slick Leonard's management of that draft pick was one of the worst in history.
He expressed it poorly, Portland traded Malone for a first round pick, which ended up the third pick in the '78 draft, which they in turn traded to Indiana in order to select Mychal Thompson #1. The Braves had Malone and McAdoo, but screwed the pooch by immediately sending Malone to Houston for draft picks.
The Brooklyn Nets have acquired Kevin Garnett [corpse of], Paul Pierce [corpse of], Jason Terry [corpse of] and D.J. White from the Boston Celtics in exchange for [flotsam] (Gerald Wallace, Kris Humphries, MarShon Brooks, Kris Joseph, Keith Bogans) and three first round draft picks (2014, 2016 and 2018), as well as the right to swap first round picks in 2017, Nets General Manager Billy King has announced.
Rivers for a first and then replacing him with Stevens wasn't bad either.
Rivers for a first and then replacing him with Stevens wasn't bad either.