Wait till he trades Brady...Not that BB cares, but trading Butler will bring some wrath from a portion of both the media and fans...not quite getting rid of Kosar, but close.
Wait till he trades Brady...Not that BB cares, but trading Butler will bring some wrath from a portion of both the media and fans...not quite getting rid of Kosar, but close.
Seriously? Have you watched him play? In this offense, Cooks would be a deadly slot receiver and could be used interchangeably with Edelman on the same side of the offense. I would love to see Cooks as a Patriot.That's insane. I don't understand the infatuation with Cooks. Please walk away Bill.
That's negotiating. What the Saints want and what they get are different things.That's insane. I don't understand the infatuation with Cooks. Please walk away Bill.
Not that BB cares, but trading Butler will bring some wrath from a portion of both the media and fans...not quite getting rid of Kosar, but close.
Yeah, I don't think it's close.Not that BB cares, but trading Butler will bring some wrath from a portion of both the media and fans...not quite getting rid of Kosar, but close.
Color me not shocked if this happens. Two legit CB1s for two years, and maybe draft a high ceiling CB in the 3rd to develop with Cyrus and Rowe. Worst case, someone makes Butler an offer that doesn't get matched, and we get a first round CB.If Butler plays under the first round tender, then gets franchised next year, in essence the Pats are paying him around $19M for two seasons. Then they could let him walk in 2019 when he turns 29. Not totally out of the question.
aside from the fact that every single move will get "some" wrath from "some" media/fans, that is an absolutely absurd statement... and yes, as stated above, imagine when he trades Tom.not quite getting rid of Kosar, but close.
100% this. Cooks can catch a short ball in the slot and simply outrun a couple of guys for a 30-yard gain. And he's younger than Mitchell.Seriously? Have you watched him play? In this offense, Cooks would be a deadly slot receiver and could be used interchangeably with Edelman on the same side of the offense. I would love to see Cooks as a Patriot.
Beyond what has been mentioned about considerations above. You can't pro-rate the signing bonus if you do this. It would accelerate all onto the Patriots salary cap for that year as soon as they trade him (as they would be the team signing him) so you would have to place a lot more guaranteed salary throughout the contract to get the player to agree. Teams like to minimize guaranteed dollars as much as possible so they can cut guys in year 3, 4, or 5 of the contract with little salary cap harm.In this scenario, would NO and NE be able to collude to some extent where NO makes an offer to Butler, NE matches it and then they trade. I am
not sure why they (i.e, NO) would not just sign Butler and lose the pick, then on a separate but parallel track, flip Cooks for #32?
I'm not sure an RFA with attached draft pick compensation can be traded until he signs the tender from the prior club. And, if he signs the tender, he's not eligible to be signed by another club after the trade, as he's no longer an RFA. The following is from the CBA:hypothetical: question IF Pats/NO trade Butler for Cooks today and Butler then signs with the Jets tomorrow, then NO would get the Jets #1?
The exceptions are for draft picks and RFA's with solely right of first refusal options (aka, no draft pick compensation attached).Nothing in 41 this Subsection shall preclude a Prior Club from entering into a Player Contract with a player subject to a Tender, and subsequently trading that player under that Player Contract to another Club, provided that the player and the NFLPA must approve in advance any such trade that takes place during the Signing Period
....
No Right of First Refusal may be assigned to any other Club (except as provided in Article 6, Section 7 or as agreed by the player in the circumstances set forth in Section 5 below). This prohibition applies to any Right of First Refusal described in this Agreement (except as described in Section 5 below), including any Right of First Refusal with respect to Restricted Free Agents, Transition Players, or Drafted Rookies described in Article 6, Section 5.
Uh yea hes a pro bowl corner. Hes very good. More Talib like and with Ryan leaving (whom they generally put on the big corners) this isnt totally shocking.Isn't this the guy who got torched on a Hogan deep ball? One play but yikes.
With the caveat that predicting what Bill will do is generally a fool's errand, and the additional caveat that we're currently looking at a disassembled engine with parts still on the floor, I doubt it would be Gronk. I don't see Belichick valuing the 4th or 5th rounder that he would get in return all that highly as compared to what Gronk brings to the table. And the cap savings this year are minimal at best.Allen and Gilmore are the first couple of shoes to drop. I have a feeling that shit is about to get crazy, because if they also get Cooks, there are a LOT of receivers on this roster. Someone else will likely have to go, and I wrote this in the FA thread - but is it Gronk, with the Pats moving to more 4-WR sets and a power running game (maybe with AP)?
I'm not sure an RFA with attached draft pick compensation can be traded until he signs the tender from the prior club. And, if he signs the tender, he's not eligible to be signed by another club after the trade, as he's no longer an RFA. The following is from the CBA:
The exceptions are for draft picks and RFA's with solely right of first refusal options (aka, no draft pick compensation attached).
Basically, NO only does the trade if Butler agrees to sign an extension with the Saints.
We have said this time and again, PFF is garbage and shouldn't be used for any kind of analysis. Their grades are essentially made up.Interesting chart from PFF. Butler was thrown at more last year but Gilmore missed one game. Numbers are roughly even except for Passes Defended. However, Pro Football Reference has Gilmore having 12 PD, not 6 that PFF has. Both seem like similar players but Gilmore gives you a little more length and is younger.
PFF is the NFL equivalent of Spring Training stats.We have said this time and again, PFF is garbage and shouldn't be used for any kind of analysis. Their grades are essentially made up.
The same thought occurred to me ... tho it is being reported that Ryan is talking with the Steelers. Not sure how far along that is, however ...General question: If Butler is gone either via trade or another team signing him, does that re-open Logan ryan as a #2, or has that boat sailed?
Cooks is a lot better than any of our receivers not named Edelman.Cooks is really good, but I think the difference between him and the guys he'd take snaps from (Mitchell / Amendola / Hogan) is smaller than the difference between Butler and the CBs who'd take his snaps. I wouldn't trade Butler for Cooks straight up unless Butler has told them he's going to hold out or something. And Cooks is a UFA in two seasons anyway so he's going to get expensive.
First off, the difference between Cooks and any combo of any non-Edelman WR on the Pats roster is much greater than the difference between Butler and Gilmore. Second, I doubt that the Patriots are done exploring the CB market to replace Ryan, if he leaves. Third, I'd rather be faced with potentially investing in a 25 year old WR after two years of reasonable cost than a 27 year old CB at a far higher cost over the next 2+ years. This is smart cap/roster management.Cooks is really good, but I think the difference between him and the guys he'd take snaps from (Mitchell / Amendola / Hogan) is smaller than the difference between Butler and the CBs who'd take his snaps. I wouldn't trade Butler for Cooks straight up unless Butler has told them he's going to hold out or something. And Cooks is a UFA in two seasons anyway so he's going to get expensive.
"He can take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n."For a division that is supposedly made of Tomato Cans, BB pretty often takes their detritus and then beats said Cans with their own castoffs.
I didn't reference their grade. They have similar numbers outside their made up grade, which is what I was referencing in the post.We have said this time and again, PFF is garbage and shouldn't be used for any kind of analysis. Their grades are essentially made up.
I don't disagree with anything except the bolded.I understand that economics play a huge, pivotal role but I don't understand this from on field perspective. To wit:
- the Pats WR crew, while not young (except Mitchell) , is still very effective and deep; Edelman, Hogan and Mitchell all should be effective for at least a few more years; and Amendola at a restructured deal seems like a good 4th given how much Tom seems to rely on him
- in addtion to the WRs, they have excellent pass catchers at RB and TE with Gronk, Lewis, White and Allen
- finding really effective corners is difficult; Butler is a true number one corner; Gilmore would be the only one left and he's untested in this system
- I am assuming that Ryan is gone
- Rowe only played slot corner last year and it seems to be that he got beat a lot; I know some in this thread have expressed approval but Rowe was one of my big worries heading into the SB
At bottom, a Cooks-Butler deal would mean they are augmenting a position of strength and leaving themselves with only one truly effective corner. Don't get me wrong, I like Cooks a lot for this team. The highlights I've seen make me giddy and I like that Bill has gotten a good look at him in practice. But....
Yeah, I think Cooks could be really something special in the Patriots offense.Cooks is a lot better than any of our receivers not named Edelman.
And he's still better, and much younger, than Edelman, and can play both in the slot or on the outside. I feel comfortable saying that Cooks isnt far off from Antonio Brown, with the potential to be better than Brown (he's a good deal faster: Cooks ran a 4.33, Brown ran a 4.48). He's also only 23 and five years younger than Brown. Between his speed and versatility, you can see why BB is going after him hard.
Edelman's contract is almost up too.I don't disagree with anything except the bolded.
Edelman will be 31 next year, same age as Wes Welker in his last 1000+ yard season. Hogan will be 29. Ocho-Cinco and Randy Moss fell off the cliff at 33. Brandon Lloyd was a shell of himself at 31. Torry Holt declined rapidly at 32; teammate Az Hakim was done by 29.
While some receivers can continue to be effective into their mid-to-late 30's, it's not wise to count on that fact. Wouldn't be totally unexpected if Mitchell is the only one of that group remaining by the time the 2018 season rolls around.
Yeah, it's great that BB is thinking not just about next year, but beyond. We're so focused on 2017, but he's also zeroed in on 2018.Edelman's contract is almost up too.
Yeah, if Brady continues to throw a good deep ball, Cooks becomes our "Madden" glitch. Assuming a healthy Gronk (assuming he stays, which I think he would unless someone blew the Pats away with a high pick or blue chip player), Edelman, Hogan, Mitchell and maybe Amendola, a possible addition of Cooks would round out the greatest Patriots offense - on paper - ever.Yeah, I think Cooks could be really something special in the Patriots offense.
The downside of the Welker/Edeleman slot play has always been teams playing a single high safety and robber underneath, knowing they can't get beat deep. The wheel route to Edelman had to be one of the plays they saw open time and again on the sideline if Edelman could just beat his defenders with speed. Even a mediocre defense like the Falcons could get work done by pressing hard and cheating underneath.
Imagine Cooks in that context. He has the same short-space quickness as the Welker/Edelman types, but can also take the top off the defense. Cooks allows them to threaten the deep part of the field in a way they haven't since Moss. He would be insane in the Pats offense.
So, you'd underbid Cooks so much that not only would the Saints reject the offer, it'd probably ruin Payton and Belichick's friendship?If we're so flush with cash, instead of Butler for cooks, I'd rather package Hogan, Cyrus (selling low I know) a mid/low pick and maybe someone like Valentine or someone else that won't be an impact player for us. Saints need a LOT of help at D.
Or quite frankly, maybe just Jimmy G for Cooks and Grayson
PFF can't even be trusted on the "targets" figure. What if they're in zone? Who's responsibility is a particular WR on a certain play? Not even other coaches know that for sure; I guarantee you that PFF knows even less.I didn't reference their grade. They have similar numbers outside their made up grade, which is what I was referencing in the post.
It is truly amazing watching BB work, every off-season there are certain expectations of what may occur with several dozen "these players are safe and key members" and almost every year one or two of the safe key contributors are moved. If BB truly loves JG as much as it seems I wouldn't at this point be surprised to see him remain, sign a long term contract and see Brady traded to SF next off-season. It would make me the fanboy puke, but we just have no idea what his 2018/19/20 board looks like and time will tell if TB12 is the one BB can't quit.
But also not much beyond that other than the seemingly permanent flexibility BB keeps by not creating a dead money pit. Which is also wise in a game where the average career is so short, the prime years of even the best players at demanding positions are few, and the contracts are not guaranteed. Just look at the turnover between 49 and 51. There were about 20(?) repeaters.Yeah, it's great that BB is thinking not just about next year, but beyond. We're so focused on 2017, but he's also zeroed in on 2018.
Yes, and I don't see how there would be any debate on that point.Wouldn't Amendola be the logical cut if they pick up Cook, he's 31, has a cap hit of 7.8M and dead money of 1.4M so they would save 6.4M (if I am reading the charts right)
If the Pats sign Butler to a matched contract, they cannot trade him unless the player and NFLPA sign off on it. Seems likely, but if there's any evidence of side agreements between the Pats and the Saints, Roger will come hunting for blood while the PA files a grievance.Here's the other factor regarding Butler: His agent Derek Simpson pretty much has only one bankable NFL client and that's #21. Both player and agent know that this is his one big shot at a significant payday and I'd bet that they overplayed their hand in contract talks with the Pats. We have seen time and again when a player/agent tries to play hardball with Belichick, Plan B quickly goes into effect.
Meanwhile, the Pats are probably telling the Saints if they come to a contract agreement with Butler, the Pats will match it, Butler will sign and then trade to NO for Cooks so that the Saints don't have to cough up the first round pick. It's a nifty bit of leverage for Belichick.
EDIT: It appears that Miguel from Patscap just Tweeted something very similar to my second paragraph.
Honestly, I'm starting to think this way as well. They hold onto Brady through next year, then the trade of all trades happens, and then they franchise and move onto Jimmy. I wonder if they're starting to think about how to get younger at every position on O, so they're gearing up for a final year with TB12 with the idea that the players and picks they're acquiring will help the team seamlessly (or as seamlessly as possible) transition from #12 to #10. Remember: Jimmy throws a damn good deep ball - I think most would agree that it's better than Brady's - and they're currently trying to acquire a 23-year-old deep threat.If BB truly loves JG as much as it seems I wouldn't at this point be surprised to see him remain, sign a long term contract and see Brady traded to SF next off-season. It would make me the fanboy puke, but we just have no idea what his 2018/19/20 board looks like and time will tell if TB12 is the one BB can't quit.
Why exactly would they file a grievance? Doing the deal this way facilitates the player getting more money a year earlier.If the Pats sign Butler to a matched contract, they cannot trade him unless the player and NFLPA sign off on it. Seems likely, but if there's any evidence of side agreements between the Pats and the Saints, Roger will come hunting for blood while the PA files a grievance.
They wouldn't do it either unless there was no upfront money. Otherwise Pats are hit with dead money on cap.If the Pats sign Butler to a matched contract, they cannot trade him unless the player and NFLPA sign off on it. Seems likely, but if there's any evidence of side agreements between the Pats and the Saints, Roger will come hunting for blood while the PA files a grievance.
I don't know about Jimmy having a better deep ball than Brady.Honestly, I'm starting to think this way as well. They hold onto Brady through next year, then the trade of all trades happens, and then they franchise and move onto Jimmy. I wonder if they're starting to think about how to get younger at every position on O, so they're gearing up for a final year with TB12 with the idea that the players and picks they're acquiring will help the team seamlessly (or as seamlessly as possible) transition from #12 to #10. Remember: Jimmy throws a damn good deep ball - I think most would agree that it's better than Brady's - and they're currently trying to acquire a 23-year-old deep threat.
That said, who knows? BB could go in a million different directions from here and I bet that's exactly how he likes it.
One thing seems somewhat certain and yet strange to think about: Stephon Gilmore, from this day forward, will likely be a Patriot longer than Tom Brady.
NO and the Pats can work out a trade, which would allow Butler to get his money. But any side agreement that circumvents the CBA would be frowned upon by both the Sheriff and the PA.Why exactly would they file a grievance? Doing the deal this way facilitates the player getting more money a year earlier.