PGA Championship- Bethpage Black

The Needler

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I don't think folks understand how good 5 wins before 30 is -- 10 wins and a major is a HoF career. Brooks is already a HoF player with his multiple majors.
10 wins and a major doesn’t even make you eligible for the HOF.

Koepka is a hall of famer because he’s about to win his 4th major. But his tour career otherwise has been uninspiring. Even Hunter Mahan had 5 PGA wins before he turned 30.
 

mostman

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Eh, it's not really, anymore. The current generation of long hitters are all max effort swing guys.



There don't seem to be many. He's a bit boring on the course. Hitting the ball a mile is great and all but if you see one long drive you've seen them all. I don't think people dislike him, just they don't really care about him. I'll take him over DJ in the long hitter division, fwiw.
Sure, but I don’t think a 210 7i is the median. How many tour players do you think can do that? Even at max effort.
 

johnmd20

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Amazingly, not only is this tournament over, but the leaderboard is now horrendous. Wallace, List, Jazz, Varner. Catch the excitement!
 

FL4WL3SS

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10 wins and a major doesn’t even make you eligible for the HOF.

Koepka is a hall of famer because he’s about to win his 4th major. But his tour career otherwise has been uninspiring. Even Hunter Mahan had 5 PGA wins before he turned 30.
15 wins or two majors, forgot that changed a few years ago (used to be 10).

I wish they would add a team competition (and Olympics?) criteria.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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10 wins and a major doesn’t even make you eligible for the HOF.

Koepka is a hall of famer because he’s about to win his 4th major. But his tour career otherwise has been uninspiring. Even Hunter Mahan had 5 PGA wins before he turned 30.
Yeah he didn’t say that. He said ten wins and a major is a HoF career. As in ‘he deserves it’.

Then he said with his majors he’s already one, with regard to the technical qualifications.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I hope he keeps winning just to piss everyone off. So many people love the crybaby Spieth, but not Brooks. Blows my mind.
I agree but not sure it blows my mind. Brooks is just, well, plain yogurt? Really good plain yogurt but it’s tough to ignore he’s boring and robotic. He’s impressive and I hope he becomes more consistent. I couldn’t say I like or dislike Brooks. But I feel same way about DJ.

Speith is a whiny crybaby who is basically the ARod of the pga - marketed, handled, dramatic; but I don’t find him likable at all and I don’t get the love for him.
 

The Needler

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Yeah he didn’t say that. He said ten wins and a major is a HoF career. As in ‘he deserves it’.
And I didn’t say anything different. I don’t know how you can say someone “deserves” to be in the HOF with qualifications the HOF recently decided were not deserving of consideration.

EDIT: and you’re clearly wrong about what he meant, since he just said he had forgotten about the qualification requirements.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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And I didn’t say anything different. I don’t know how you can say someone “deserves” to be in the HOF with qualifications the HOF recently decided were not deserving of consideration.

EDIT: and you’re clearly wrong about what he meant, since he just said he had forgotten about the qualification requirements.
Well, to your first point, the qualifications by the book for a hall of ale are very different from deserving to be in one. I could expand the discussion to other sports and mention names like Trammel, Whitaker, etc. but saying ‘HoF career’ doesn’t need to be set in stone to garner discussion.

But on golf, come on. They change criteria all the time. Woosnam is in last year because of his European wins. Ouimet is in. Freaking former presidents are in it. If you win three majors and ten total you deserve to be in.

To your edit: ooooh, you got me. Snap, burn. I read it differently and not as anally as you did. Internet point awarded.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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He's not marketed at all. They are barely showing him today. And if you have watched this year, Spieth is neither handled nor dramatic. He is just playing without incident. Usually poorly.
Odd I could have sworn I just saw a few commercials with him for UA and Titleist and have heard his name mentioned by announcers in reference to other golfers a few times. ‘That was a Jordanish knee bend by brooks there on that chip’

That it’s calmed a bit this year is for exactly the reason you state at the end imo, that he’s not playing well.

And for good god I’ll agree to disagree on him on some stuff, but ‘not dramatic’? Come on man.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Sure, but I don’t think a 210 7i is the median. How many tour players do you think can do that? Even at max effort.
What are we talking for wind, humidity, elevation?

Let’s assume all are neutral. I’d guess about 15-20% but prob much higher. Modestly. Shit I’m a crap golfer comparatively and my 7i goes about 175 if everything is neutral - no wind, fairway, no elevation changes and a clean day.
 

johnmd20

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Odd I could have sworn I just saw a few commercials with him for UA and Titleist and have heard his name mentioned by announcers in reference to other golfers a few times. ‘That was a Jordanish knee bend by brooks there on that chip’

That it’s calmed a bit this year is for exactly the reason you state at the end imo, that he’s not playing well.

And for good god I’ll agree to disagree on him on some stuff, but ‘not dramatic’? Come on man.
I've been watching him all year and he hasn't been dramatic. He just sucks. But I'll take Tiger or Spieth's drama way more than Brooks' boring dominance.
 

The Needler

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Well, to your first point, the qualifications by the book for a hall of ale are very different from deserving to be in one. I could expand the discussion to other sports and mention names like Trammel, Whitaker, etc. but saying ‘HoF career’ doesn’t need to be set in stone to garner discussion.

But on golf, come on. They change criteria all the time. Woosnam is in last year because of his European wins. Ouimet is in. Freaking former presidents are in it. If you win three majors and ten total you deserve to be in.

To your edit: ooooh, you got me. Snap, burn. I read it differently and not as anally as you did. Internet point awarded.
Right. I’m the one playing for internet points, not the guy who’s (wrongly) correcting someone else about what someone else altogether meant.

Nobody credible believes 1 major and 10 wins is a deserving Hall of Fame career. That would include mostly everyone who’s ever won a major. They may as well just start calling them “Hall of Fame Championships.” That’s why they changed the criteria to something most golf pros still believe is too lenient.

And they don’t change the criteria all the time, either.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I've been watching him all year and he hasn't been dramatic. He just sucks. But I'll take Tiger or Spieth's drama way more than Brooks' boring dominance.
I haven’t watched him much this* season, but that’s because when he was a feature point of every tournaments broadcast, it was annoying as shit to hear him talk to the caddy; stand over every shot then back off because the wind moved one degree; talk to the ball; complain as soon as it left the club; ‘Gosh darnit jordan!’ Then go see his high school sweetheart.

Part of that isn’t his fault. The networks chose to focus on him so I’m sure he’s not that much worse than a lot of guys, we just see it more. But that’s part of my point.

Tiger has his moments of drama and gets pushed but it’s like they all realized tiger was gone or going and latched onto what they thought was next best successor. He’s not.

Brooks is boring because he’s a robot like tiger but hasn’t earned it.

Jordan is annoying because he’s as dramatic and focused on as much as tiger but hasn’t earned it.

I’d rather watch the robot. But there was nothing hyperbolic about my statement.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Right. I’m the one playing for internet points, not the guy who’s (wrongly) correcting someone else about what someone else altogether meant.

Nobody credible believes 1 major and 10 wins is a deserving Hall of Fame career. That would include mostly everyone who’s ever won a major. They may as well just start calling them “Hall of Fame Championships.” That’s why they changed the criteria to something most golf pros still believe is too lenient.

And they don’t change the criteria all the time, either.
Cool bruh.
 

johnmd20

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I haven’t watched him much this* season, but that’s because when he was a feature point of every tournaments broadcast, it was annoying as shit to hear him talk to the caddy; stand over every shot then back off because the wind moved one degree; talk to the ball; complain as soon as it left the club; ‘Gosh darnit jordan!’ Then go see his high school sweetheart.

Part of that isn’t his fault. The networks chose to focus on him so I’m sure he’s not that much worse than a lot of guys, we just see it more. But that’s part of my point.

Tiger has his moments of drama and gets pushed but it’s like they all realized tiger was gone or going and latched onto what they thought was next best successor. He’s not.

Brooks is boring because he’s a robot like tiger but hasn’t earned it.

Jordan is annoying because he’s as dramatic and focused on as much as tiger but hasn’t earned it.

I’d rather watch the robot. But there was nothing hyperbolic about my statement.
Jordan won 3 majors before turning 24. He has 11 PGA wins at 25 years of age.(he actually had 11 at age 23) I mean, come on with the "he hasn't earned it" talk. He's one win behind Jason Day, Bubba Watson, and Zach Johnson, all much older players. He's two behind Adam Scott, who is 13 years older than Spieth. He also has more PGA wins than Justin Rose and Sergio Garcia, tremendous players who are also MUCH older.(they do have a lot of wins on non PGA events)

I just don't understand your hatred. Because he got a lot of coverage when he was winning at a young age and a historic rate, you hate him? Because most golfers talk to their caddies and their ball and try to hit good shots. Oh well, I guess you feel this way, I am sure I cannot change your mind.
 

mostman

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What are we talking for wind, humidity, elevation?

Let’s assume all are neutral. I’d guess about 15-20% but prob much higher. Modestly. Shit I’m a crap golfer comparatively and my 7i goes about 175 if everything is neutral - no wind, fairway, no elevation changes and a clean day.
He was going uphill. Slight left to right breeze.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Jordan won 3 majors before turning 24. He has 11 PGA wins at 25 years of age.(he actually had 11 at age 23) I mean, come on with the "he hasn't earned it" talk. He's one win behind Jason Day, Bubba Watson, and Zach Johnson, all much older players. He's two behind Adam Scott, who is 13 years older than Spieth. He also has more PGA wins than Justin Rose and Sergio Garcia, tremendous players who are also MUCH older.(they do have a lot of wins on non PGA events)

I just don't understand your hatred. Because he got a lot of coverage when he was winning at a young age and a historic rate, you hate him? Because most golfers talk to their caddies and their ball and try to hit good shots. Oh well, I guess you feel this way, I am sure I cannot change your mind.
I meant he hasn’t earned the attention tiger does or the patience to put up with it. Even if someone hated tiger you could be like ‘come on man...look at it’. It’s like patriots hatred.


I’m aware of Speith’s stats and comparisons you made. Zach is boring as shit. Bubba is a dick. And Sergio, does anyone like him? Maybe recently?

Athletes leave a taste in your mouth. If there’s a new fad in food and you eat it but don’t like it’s taste, you don’t say ‘well, I didn’t really enjoy that but I’ll have another helping because it’s popular and sells really well!’

I don’t ‘hate’ him. I find him boring, a crybaby and programmed by a consultant. He seems like a genuinely good guy, I just don’t need to be reminded about it all the time. As noted, I recognize it’s exacerbated by the cameras and that’s not his fault but it doesn’t help. I don’t like take joy from him playing like shit, I’d just rather not watch a puff piece on him or see him on my tv taking about ‘we’ in reference to his caddie, hitting a shot and crying ‘oh Jordan!’ to have it end up six feet from the hole or him rifling through a yardage book with a live mic to decide what to hit for a two yard difference he decides on based on the wind as he steps off the ball like Keegan or Sergio having a meltdown.

That I don’t love him or root for him or really even give a shit doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge what’s he accomplished. And there’s no hyperbole in my original statement.
 

johnmd20

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Today, Koepka has gotten perfect bounces on almost everyone of his shots. It's amazing. Every drive near the rough bounced towards the fairway. I can recall 3. Every not perfect approach to the green bounces, avoids trouble, and rolls on the green. And most of his approach shots are perfect.

By the way, did anyone catch the drama there from Spieth, after his approach to 16? He actually grit his teeth. What a douche.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Sure, but I don’t think a 210 7i is the median. How many tour players do you think can do that? Even at max effort.
Whatever the number is, I bet only a few can do it with the 7 iron in our bags. I’d bet none of them could do it with the 7 iron in my bag when I was 16 playing Hogan Apex 2’s. That 7 iron specs match today’s stock 9 irons. Who knows what loft/lie is on their 7 iron, they design their clubs for specific gaps and the number is just the next step. When your PW is your 4th shortest iron, distances get up there pretty quick.
 

The Needler

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What age do golfers tend to peak?
Depends. There was an analysis done a while back that concluded the age was lower on the US tour than the Euro tour. And women peak much earlier than men. And obviously, differences in training and nutrition are like to change the numbers. But historically, about 40% of majors are won by players in their 20s, and about 75% by those age 35 or younger.

Arnold Palmer won his last major at 34. Tom Watson won his last major at 33. Seve Ballesteros was just 31 when he win his last major. Johnny Miller, Curtis Strange, Fuzzy Zoeller, Jose Maria Olazabal, Fred Couples, Tom Weiskopf, Paul Azinger – none of these players won even one major championship after turning 35.

And, of course, Tiger Woods was 32 the [second to] last time he won a major, at the 2008 U.S. Open.
Jack Nicklaus won 14 of his 18 majors before turning 36.
 

mostman

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Whatever the number is, I bet only a few can do it with the 7 iron in our bags. I’d bet none of them could do it with the 7 iron in my bag when I was 16 playing Hogan Apex 2’s. That 7 iron specs match today’s stock 9 irons. Who knows what loft/lie is on their 7 iron, they design their clubs for specific gaps and the number is just the next step. When your PW is your 4th shortest iron, distances get up there pretty quick.
That’s true. Our irons are absolutely lofted more.
 

Marciano490

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Depends. There was an analysis done a while back that concluded the age was lower on the US tour than the Euro tour. And women peak much earlier than men. And obviously, differences in training and nutrition are like to change the numbers. But historically, about 40% of majors are won by players in their 20s, and about 75% by those age 35 or younger.
Thanks. That’s interesting. I assume the drop off is mainly due to lost flexibility?
 

johnmd20

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DJ blows a hole and it doesn't matter because it's Saturday and the PGA Championship is over. It's been over since 1pm on Thursday, actually. In my opinion, this absolutely sucks.
 

Marciano490

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It's the putting. It just gets worse as you age.
Sorry to clutter if this isn’t the best place for it, but why would that be? I’d think putting would improve with experience and wouldn’t be at all dependent on things that fade with age.
 

The Needler

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DJ blows a hole and it doesn't matter because it's Saturday and the PGA Championship is over. It's been over since 1pm on Thursday, actually. In my opinion, this absolutely sucks.
Agreed. Doesn’t help that, let’s face it, this is the least interesting major. Now that it’s not even “glory’s last shot,” it’s hard to really get any more excited about it than the Players.
 

johnmd20

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Sorry to clutter if this isn’t the best place for it, but why would that be? I’d think putting would improve with experience and wouldn’t be at all dependent on things that fade with age.
What Needler said. The hands start to shake a little bit as you age. And that changes the putting enough that it's a little worse. A little worse turns a champion into a non champion. Because these old dudes can hit the ball as long as the young guys. Mickelson regularly hits it 300. Tiger, too. They are well past being 40.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Equipment is probably moving the peak age back several years. But most guys that disappear from the tour radar, regardless of age, are gone because of their putting.
 

johnmd20

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This tourney is Martin Kaymer in 2014 at the US Open, when it was over Friday morning. That's the last major I can remember where the last two days had nothing consequential happen on the course.
 

Leon Trotsky

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I haven't been watching golf that long but one of the things I really find fascinating is the guy who comes out of nowhere to win, completely unknown or a huge underdog. Winning on the big stage is totally life changing for them and that is pretty cool. Brooks is now the opposite of that. The tourney is over, and it seems like in every win he gets. Not just drama free, but boring. I think its why I root against Tiger too - he is obviously the GOAT (or close), but its always fun to root for the underdog.
 

BigMike

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30 is the start of the peak traditionally.

Golf is different than other sports in that you need some experience winning before you can really take off.
Honestly it feels like it has gotten younger than it used to be. It used to be way more about experience, and now it is so much more about pure talent and athleticism.

Anyway, missed a couple hours earlier as I was out coaching, but finally finished catching up. Honestly it felt like the wheels fell off the bus for Brooks (drives were all over the place, putting was poor), and he still posted a 70

You wonder what he could do if he wasn't bored, and actually brought something even resembling his A game to non major events. Although, I guess one of his huge advantages is he might be better out of heavy rough than anyone else in the game, and of course regular tournaments barely have rough, forget heavy rough
 

johnmd20

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This column is pretty simple and not necessarily an indication of why Koepka is awesome. He is an incredible physical specimen and supremely talented. He would have been talented if he played in the US or all over the world.

Plenty of golfers don't do what Koepka did and are amazing and they win a lot.