Pique S**ts on Your Wh*re Mother - Barcelona 2016-2017

Zososoxfan

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A domestic double somehow feels like a letdown to this squad, although it shouldn't. Other than a dip in form following the South America WCQ wherein they lost their UCL tie with Atleti, this team was as good as last year's treble winning squad. Suarez won the Pichichi, Neymar had an incredible first half of the season when Messi was out injured, and Messi put in another ho hum 41 goals across all competitions (Suarez had 62!).

As we swing into the summer tournaments and transfer window, there's some smoke that big mainstays Mascherano and Dani Alves are getting real heat from Juve. Juve has apparently approached Masche about playing DMF, which he loves. Considering that Barca have Bartra, Mathieu, and Vermaelen at CB, this is a real possibility. Two seasons ago, I would've been the first one to tell you that Alves was on the downside of his career. However, last year he outplayed Alba and staved off a challenge from Vidal. While Sergi Roberto showed he belongs, Alves still started in 43 matches across all competitions. I have to think he has one more season at FCB before leaving. I've also read some that Turan may be shipped out after an underwhelming second half of the season (he was unable to play in the first half due to FCB's transfer ban). If this is to bring in Paul Pogba, I can't complain, but otherwise, I think this would be shortsighted. The list of players who recently "struggled" in their first season at FCB includes Thierry Henry, Zlatan, and Neymar. This is a hard squad to integrate into and I think it would be a mistake to sell low on Turan.

On the flip side, the big target this year will be Pogba. It seems unlikely based on finances, but Pogba loves Barca and the feeling is mutual. If Barca decides to sell off some assets, they should be able to balance the acquisition cost or at least mitigate it. Hatim Ben Arfa will also be pursued by every major club and Barca is no different. He will come substantially cheaper than Pogba, but is a substantially lesser player IMHO.

There are other questions of the squad - how to resolve the keeper situation, an increased role for Sergi, etc., but those are minor IMHO compared to those others above.
 

bosox4283

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The word is that Dani Alves has already signed with Juventus. In fact, I think Alves said goodbye to the Barcelona fans via his Instagram account.

Plus, AS (or is it As?) is reporting that Bartra is on his way to Dortmund.
 

Zososoxfan

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Well I guess I'm behind the curve here. Dani was the best FB on the team last year, but Vidal should be ready to step in and if not, Sergi and Adriano should be capable backups to at least keep it together until the next window. Bartra is a sad loss for a Masia player, but otherwise, CB depth is fine with Pique, Masche (at least for the time being), Mathieu, and Vermaelen.
 

DJnVa

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Any chance "whore" can be edited out of the title? Since that loads in the web address when someone looks at this thread, it could be an issue at someone's place of employment.
 

Zososoxfan

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I honestly would if I knew how, but I don't :-( Coincidentally, I contacted the mods about this before starting the thread. It also begs the question, is it "Wh*re", "W**re", "Wh**e", or something else entirely?
 

bosox4283

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Kidding aside, the majority of Barcelona's players are still under 30. Barcelona will have to re-tool soon, but for the next year or two, they can enjoy the prime--or the last prime years--of players such as Messi, Pique, Suarez, Iniesta, Busquets.
 
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Barca buys Samuel Umtiti, who just started for France at CB next to Koscielny, from Lyon for EUR 25M.

As the ESPNFC article says succinctly, none of the club's attempts to replace Puyol through the transfer market have met with any success to speak of. Perhaps this will be different, but Umtiti looked a little out of his depth out there tonight... against Iceland. But at 22, he probably still has some room to grow.
 

bosox4283

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It's also a move toward a younger team. Pique is 29 and probably has 2-3 years left. But Mascherano (32), Vermaelen (30), and Mathieu (32) are nearing the end of their time at Barcelona.
 

Zososoxfan

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Barca buys Samuel Umtiti, who just started for France at CB next to Koscielny, from Lyon for EUR 25M.

As the ESPNFC article says succinctly, none of the club's attempts to replace Puyol through the transfer market have met with any success to speak of. Perhaps this will be different, but Umtiti looked a little out of his depth out there tonight... against Iceland. But at 22, he probably still has some room to grow.
Do UCL, la liga, and copa del Rey titles not count?
 

sachmoney

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Messi sentenced to 21 months in jail. He can appeal and prison years under two years can be probation, so he won't serve time. It's disappointing because the remake to Escape to Victory or the soccer Longest Mile would have been great. May be they should mandate that Barca play in jump suits this year, at least for their away kits.
 

Zososoxfan

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Depends on whether you think a club can succeed in spite of one of its position players.
Sorry but I'm calling shenanigans on this one.

05-06, 35 games, win La Liga, 35 GA (3rd in GA by 2 goals)
06-07, 35 games, 2nd in LL, 33 GA (best in LL)
07-08, 30 games, 3rd in LL, 43 GA (3rd in GA)
08-09, 28 games, win LL, 35 GA (best by 4 goals)
09-10, 32 games, win LL, 24 GA (best in LL by 11 goals)
10-11, 17 games, win LL, 21 GA (best in LL by a ~10 goals)
11-12, 26 games, 2nd in LL, 29 GA (best in LL by small margin)
12-13, 13 games, win LL, 40 GA (2nd to Atleti by 9 goals)
13-14, 5 games, 2nd in LL, 33 GA (2nd to Atleti by by 7)
14-15, retired, win LL, 21 GA (best in LL by 8 goals)
15-16, retired, win LL, 29 GA (2nd in LL to Atleti with 18(!!!))


So, during the last 2 years of Puyol's diminished PT + 2 seasons with him retired, Barca has finished best in LL once, and 2nd 3 times while winning LL 3x. While Barca did finished best in LL 4x in a row during his peak, going by counting stats the 14-15 season was as good as any other and 15-16 is very very good. Also worth noting that in 06-07 and 08-09, 33 and 35 GA respectively was best in the LL, whereas Atleti just gave up 18 goals this past season (which is still totally mindboggling). I would say he's been adequately replaced.

Nevertheless, central defenders are hard to evaluate, especially at the mega clubs where their distribution abilities play a bigger role than on clubs with narrower aspirations. I think it would be fun for Gazza to try and come up with a consensus of rankings for defenders because I don't know how many I would pick over Pique and Masche on their current form. Might have to grade it out based on defensive ability combined with distribution, so we can identify who we all think are the best "pure" defenders versus those who's distribution contributes to their value.
 

Zososoxfan

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And now there are reports that Barcelona wants Carrasco. Barca is doing a great job trolling Atletico, especially a year after taking Turan.
Hell, I'd be happy if they roll the dice on Vietto, but then again I'm a total fanboi. It would be great to see what these guys can do in the Olympics, but with the current AFA situation, it would be a surprise if Argentina compete and if so, it looks like it will be trying on the team to say the least.
 

bosox4283

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Hell, I'd be happy if they roll the dice on Vietto, but then again I'm a total fanboi. It would be great to see what these guys can do in the Olympics, but with the current AFA situation, it would be a surprise if Argentina compete and if so, it looks like it will be trying on the team to say the least.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the rumors linking Vietto to Barca interest. Stay away!

It's a shame Vietto had such a poor year at Atletico. Apparently, Atletico denied him permission to play in the Olympics. Assuming Atletico can sign another striker, I think it's best for Vietto to go elsewhere for the year to get minutes. You'll have Griezmann, new striker, Torres, and Correa ahead of him on the depth chart, and Carrasco can also move into an attacking role.

But, yeah, stay away from our players. Gracias.
 

Zososoxfan

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Barca got off to a nice start against Betis last Saturday for a 6-2 win. Lucho had a bit of a funky lineup, starting Umtiti at CB over Masche, Roberto over Vidal at RB, Suarez in for the injured Iniesta, and Turan in for Ney who was still on Olympic duty. Arda finally looked settled and got himself a nice tap in goal. His creativity showed bigtime and although he may be able to play MF eventually, on this Barca squad he's more effective in the front 3. D. Suarez looked good in MF and had a good workrate. L. Suarez had a ho-hum hattrick and Messi added a brace.

The game was overshadowed by the fact that Bravo has probably played his final game for Barca. He's likely headed to MANC to join Pep. MAtS will finally have his chance to show why he's considered one of the best young keepers in the world, and I'm seeing Cillessen from Ajax is being bought as the backup. I'm fully team Bravo>MAtS, but frankly, I don't think it changes much. To me, Bravo is a better shot stopper and likely will be for another season or 2, and his distribution is solid, but unspectacular, but I can understand wanting to pencil in MAtS for a decade.
 

Zososoxfan

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Barca got a tough win away at San Mames over the weekend, with a very pretty team goal with Rak finishing off a cross with a header. Athletic is a very good team and San Mames is a phenomenal home field advantage.

But, the BIG news today is that Paco Alcacer is moving from Valencia to Barca on a 5-year permanent signing, while Barca is loaning Munir to Valencia on a 1-year loan with an option to buy. Basically, instead of going hard after Pogba, Barca brought in Alcacer, D. Suarez, Gomes, Digne, and Umtiti! That's just bonkers. They also made a strong move to address their unhappy keepers, by selling Bravo to MANC and bringing in Dutch international Cillessen from Ajax. This is a very deep squad, and if Lucho manages it right, he should have a rested Top XI comes the tough March-May stretch in '17. The only players on the squad who are 30+ years old are Iniesta, Masche, and Mathieu.

I've started to think that once Messi starts to lose his pace, he could become the Xavi/Iniesta for Barca. His passing is so good and his control is so strong, that he could certainly still provide a lot of value in MF. Maybe even at the top of a diamond MF.

Edit: Someone put it more elegantly than me - http://www.barcelonafootballblog.com/25559/the-shape-of-things-to-come-aka-barca-2-0/
 
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Zososoxfan

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Man, this place is a wasteland. Anyway, yesterday, chemist Lucho tried to play Alcacer and Suarez in the same lineup and it didn't go so well. Barca had poor movement and looked disjointed. After a short continuation after halftime, Alcacer and Rak came off for Turan and Rafinha and Barca was fine again. Ney had a nice pass over the D to Arda who finished, then Pique stayed calm on a corner and slotted in. The 'Gladbach keeper should've done better with both. With City drawing with Celtic, Barca leads the group by itself.
 

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Oct 19th, City @ Barça, is going to be a spectacular game. Messi might be healthy by then, right? And De Bruyne perhaps as well?
 

bosox4283

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Two absolutely insane Messi runs in today's game. Start watching this highlights clip right at the 8:00 mark, you get them back to back.
Thanks for posting. The first run was really impressive, but I was equally impressed by Iniesta. He gets bumped, falls, regains balance, and then has a real quick touch with the right foot before passing with the left. It was really impressive.

Barcelona's win was solid considering that Espanyol has been playing really well with a stingy defensive.
 

Zososoxfan

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Two absolutely insane Messi runs in today's game. Start watching this highlights clip right at the 8:00 mark, you get them back to back.
Thanks for posting. The first run was really impressive, but I was equally impressed by Iniesta. He gets bumped, falls, regains balance, and then has a real quick touch with the right foot before passing with the left. It was really impressive.

Barcelona's win was solid considering that Espanyol has been playing really well with a stingy defensive.
Both of those plays were absolutely bonkers. Espanyol usually plays Barca tough, so that really was a solid result. Espanyol should also get credit for a very pretty goal of their own.
 

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There were a bunch of insane goals this weekend. For me that Suarez goal (due to Messi) was second best behind Mertens' bit of magic...this was his FOURTH goal...

 

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Tough to look at the one goal and say that. Hart had a hell of a game against Juventus.

It's difficult to say how different City can play as a result of having Bravo in the back, but I don't know that many would argue Hart would have been worth a few saved goals over Bravo if the situations were the same.
 

teddykgb

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this City fan wouldn't even allowing for the fact that Bravo hasn't been at his best. Hart was never going to inspire confidence in his teammates that they could play the back pass and if you're worried about throwing it back there you're not going to play right under pressure. Bravo has struggled and maybe Hart does better on a few of the goals they have conceded but I don't think they're able to even try to play the way they're trying to play if the keeper isn't a safe option for the defenders. And Hart was never going to be that. Some City fans will never understand that, though.

Not much he could have done about that Mertens goal, though. A peach of a chip.
 

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Barca are currently in the midst of a mini-crisis after losing away to Bilbao in the Copa Del Rey last week 2-1 (return leg this week) and scraping a point against Villareal yesterday. The team looked terrible yesterday and was saved by this inch-perfect free kick by Messi in the 89th minute:


There was a blatant intentional handball by Villareal in the box missed by the ref, but I honestly think that's a secondary issue.


While I have been a big advocate for rotating players to keep the best XI fresh for the stretch run of the season, it seems imprudent to run out Andre Gomes ahead of Rakitic or Denis Suarez at the CMF position. Gomes has been pretty bad this year, with his best performance coming in a match where he played Busquets' pivot role. Rakitic isn't having the best season, but he's been MUCH better than Gomes and D. Suarez has looked much better than Gomes so far too.

Additionally, I think Neymar is either gassed or is becoming ineffective. I'd be very happy to see Turan get some more run on the wing as I think he links play better with Messi (although admittedly not as well as with Suarez) and his finishing is on form whereas Neymar's is terribly not. Yesterday, Messi played Neymar into a 1v1 with the keeper and Neymar hit a soft roller to the keeper that was just horrendous. While Arda is not a defensive stalwart (and he hasn't played in the MF as a result), he puts in more effort than Neymar and is better suited to filling a role than Neymar, who probably needs more of the focus to go through him to be fully effective.

In any event, I called this event a mini-crisis because the reality is nothing is decided in January. But, things certainly start to get decided in February (UCL and remaining league fixtures start becoming a real issue), so the team needs to start figuring this out quick.
 

Zososoxfan

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Barca kept their Copa del Rey hopes alive yesterday, reversing a 2-1 defeat at San Mames with a 3-1 win at Camp Nou. Suarez had a beautiful scissor volley in off a nice Neymar cross to get things started. Then Neymar drew a penalty after schooling the RB:


Bilbao got one back to tie the aggregate, and then Messi did this:


Messi is just absurd. He can take FK from anywhere because he has the ability to hit all 4 corners.

I will give credit where it's due and say Neymar had an excellent game. He took on defenders constantly and was much less wasteful than he had been previously. Rafinha started alongside Iniesta in the MF and he was much better than Gomes, although not as good as Rak IMO. Nevertheless, I think Rak, Rafinha, and D. Suarez can keep the position adequately manned for the remainder of the season. There are rumors of Rak heading to MANC or the EPL otherwise though. Alba makes a huge difference on the left side and he combined well with Neymar. It was actually pretty shocking to see how dedicated Barca was to attacking deep down the left. Umtiti and Pique had a solid match at the back. Iniesta still seems to be working his way back chemistry-wise, but all in all, a very solid win to right the ship going into the weekend's fixture against pleasantly surprising Las Palmas, who sit in 8th in the table.
 

bosox4283

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It was an interesting game for a few reasons:

1. Suarez -- what a goal. How many players are capable of this sort of play? Granted, Savic and Godin didn't look good, but there are only a handful of players that are at Suarez's level.

2. Messi -- again, what a goal. On this one, I think Atletico's defense deserves more blame for a systematic failure rather than individual mistakes. Messi was given space, took it, and drilled home the goal. Again, how many players are capable of this sort of play?

3. Simeone pushed the right motivational buttons, as well as reconfigured the squad, while Enrique did the opposite by taking out Rakitic. Atletico was really close to the second goal.

4. Atletico almost won the Champions League last year with, basically, no striker. The team depended on Torres finding the Fountain of Youth to keep them going. This year, Gameiro has been good but not great, and the lack of a striker--I mean, Torres was the solution yesterday!--has kept Atletico a step below where they could otherwise be.
 

bosox4283

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I didn't catch the game, but Barca dropped points badly to Betis on Sunday in a 1-1 draw. However, I did catch highlights of Barca's 2-1 win in the CDR against Atleti yesterday (sorry Bosox). Both of these goals are completely absurd:
Barring some sort of Patriots-like comeback--sidenote: as a Red Sox fan and Patriots fan, I should know that a series or game is not over until it's over, but I'm still pessimistic!--Barca will advance. Messi and Suarez did their thing, but there was some luck:

- Godin goes down with an injury
- The ref calls a non-existent offside on Griezmann's goal
- The ref could have called a penalty on Torres but didn't

Wait till you see the replay on Griezmann's goal. What an embarrassing mistake.

When will La Liga start using technology? The day Trump gets off Twitter.
 

Zososoxfan

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Barring some sort of Patriots-like comeback--sidenote: as a Red Sox fan and Patriots fan, I should know that a series or game is not over until it's over, but I'm still pessimistic!--Barca will advance. Messi and Suarez did their thing, but there was some luck:

- Godin goes down with an injury
- The ref calls a non-existent offside on Griezmann's goal
- The ref could have called a penalty on Torres but didn't

Wait till you see the replay on Griezmann's goal. What an embarrassing mistake.

When will La Liga start using technology? The day Trump gets off Twitter.
That was a horrendous call. Cillessen is better than Ter Stegen for me. Gomes needs to get his head out of his ass. Hopefully Barca can appeal Suarez' yellow card. I love what Arda brings to this team.
 

bosox4283

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That was a horrendous call. Cillessen is better than Ter Stegen for me. Gomes needs to get his head out of his ass. Hopefully Barca can appeal Suarez' yellow card. I love what Arda brings to this team.
Please tell me you're rooting for Alaves.
 

OilCanMDS

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That game was awful yesterday. PSG looked faster and crisper with their passes and dribbling all game. Barca was outplayed at both ends.

Can anybody explain why Gomes gets any playing time? I can't remember another player as bad as him getting so much time in the midfield. He seems to have either no impact or negative impact whenever he is on the field.
 

Zososoxfan

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That game was awful yesterday. PSG looked faster and crisper with their passes and dribbling all game. Barca was outplayed at both ends.

Can anybody explain why Gomes gets any playing time? I can't remember another player as bad as him getting so much time in the midfield. He seems to have either no impact or negative impact whenever he is on the field.
It's either Lucho sees something in him that we're all missing or orders from the Board to start the shiny new toy. There's no reason he should play over Rak, Rafinha, or D. Suarez. However, Suarez and Rafinha are actually better replacements for Iniesta. That's the big move Lucho didn't have the cojones to make on Tuesday - sitting an unfit Iniesta for Suarez who has been on terrific form. The combination of Iniesta and Gomes is the primarily culprit for Tuesday's disaster, with Messi's lack of movement and Roberto getting exposed secondary issues, although I don't mean to diminish the importance of those.
 

OilCanMDS

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It's either Lucho sees something in him that we're all missing or orders from the Board to start the shiny new toy. There's no reason he should play over Rak, Rafinha, or D. Suarez. However, Suarez and Rafinha are actually better replacements for Iniesta. That's the big move Lucho didn't have the cojones to make on Tuesday - sitting an unfit Iniesta for Suarez who has been on terrific form. The combination of Iniesta and Gomes is the primarily culprit for Tuesday's disaster, with Messi's lack of movement and Roberto getting exposed secondary issues, although I don't mean to diminish the importance of those.
I'd like to agree with you that Roberto was exposed and playing Rafinha or Suarez over Iniesta would have made a difference, but it was really hard to accurately assess either of those issues with Gomes on the field. Gomes provided zero cover for Roberto, so every player on Gomes and Roberto's side of the field for PSG could run at Roberto. Gomes had 5 attempted tackles all game and won zero of them. How could he only have 5 attempted tackles with how much possession PSG had on his side of the field? And the PSG defenders didn't have to worry about staying back to mark Gomes because he's incapable of passing or carrying the ball forward. Gomes doesn't defend and can't pass or dribble. So, what does he do? And Gomes' clear issues on the field put a lot of pressure on Iniesta and Busquets because they are essentially playing a man down in the mid.

This game reminded me a lot of the second Barca-Man City match in the group stage this year. I thought Barcelona's issue with ball retention and defense in that game were because of Digne, Umtiti, and Gomes being in the game. Looking back at it now, I may have been a little too harsh on Digne and Umtiti. Gomes is a game changer when he's on the field. His lack of passing, possession and defense are dangerous for a team like Barca because they can't play the ball through his side when there is pressure and their pressing defense collapses because opposing teams can just go to Gomes' side to pass or dribble around him. It's crazy to me that Real and Barca were in a fight to get him.
 

Zososoxfan

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I'd like to agree with you that Roberto was exposed and playing Rafinha or Suarez over Iniesta would have made a difference, but it was really hard to accurately assess either of those issues with Gomes on the field. Gomes provided zero cover for Roberto, so every player on Gomes and Roberto's side of the field for PSG could run at Roberto. Gomes had 5 attempted tackles all game and won zero of them. How could he only have 5 attempted tackles with how much possession PSG had on his side of the field? And the PSG defenders didn't have to worry about staying back to mark Gomes because he's incapable of passing or carrying the ball forward. Gomes doesn't defend and can't pass or dribble. So, what does he do? And Gomes' clear issues on the field put a lot of pressure on Iniesta and Busquets because they are essentially playing a man down in the mid.

This game reminded me a lot of the second Barca-Man City match in the group stage this year. I thought Barcelona's issue with ball retention and defense in that game were because of Digne, Umtiti, and Gomes being in the game. Looking back at it now, I may have been a little too harsh on Digne and Umtiti. Gomes is a game changer when he's on the field. His lack of passing, possession and defense are dangerous for a team like Barca because they can't play the ball through his side when there is pressure and their pressing defense collapses because opposing teams can just go to Gomes' side to pass or dribble around him. It's crazy to me that Real and Barca were in a fight to get him.
I don't disagree with your criticisms of Gomes - he was truly terrible. If he had finished his opportunity in the first half, it would have changed the complexion of the match and his performance, but alas he did not. With respect to Iniesta, he just did not have the legs to give cover in the MF. Yes, if he had been paired with Rak instead of Gomes he would've looked better, but once a player is on the pitch, he needs to execute. It was a bad selection made worse by Gomes, but a bad choice nonetheless.
 

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Good article by Graham Hunter over at ESPNFC regarding the Lucho announcement:

It's not quite that familiarity breeds contempt but that this Barcelona squad is full of hard-nosed, world-class winners used to perpetual success. If not checked, there is a natural tendency -- and this is not a criticism -- for the players to believe that they are the GPS for success.

They are the orchestra which, every now and again, needs to be convinced, or taught, that they do need a conductor. The soloists are great, they all read music, they all know how they want to sound individually and they all reckon that, if you assemble a huge array of great talent, that the music will come out beautifully enough to please the gods.
http://www.espnfc.com/club/barcelona/83/blog/post/3072443/luis-enrique-takes-bold-decision-to-leave-barcelona-at-the-right-time

Lucho is no great tactician, but it's beyond argument that he did a tremendous job cleaning up the malaise following Pep. I'm a big believer that managers are given too much credit for both wins and losses in football. It's more jimmy and joes than X's and O's. So, a manager's squad selection is more important than the tactical instructions given to players. You can line them up however you want, but once the other team starts playing too, it's up to the players to adapt. Thus, Lucho's biggest problem last year was not implementing squad rotation to avoid the burnout that occurred in February-March. And this season, his folly was not recognizing that Don Andres has diminished and an odd over-reliance on Andre Gomes. Barca is one of the toughest managerial jobs in the world, and really anything more than 3 seasons is usually a stretch (even for Saint Pep). As the article points out, Lucho took the high road and he, the club, and the players will all be better for it:

Luis Enrique had intimated to the club that he'd prefer to resolve matters, one way or another, in April. Given his record, he was entitled to ask for that, even if it was detrimental to the club's forward planning.

But Lionel Messi's current contract expires in the summer of 2018, which means he will be free to sign for another club on Jan. 1, just 10 months from now. Before he chooses to either leave or recommit -- the latter still being more likely -- there's no question that the greatest player in Barcelona's history would need to know who was going to coach him next season, which players would be signing and which ones would be leaving.

Until Luis Enrique showed his hand, it was impossible for the club to guarantee any of those things.

Until these matters were made clear, Messi's contract would continue to edge towards that remarkable status, where the most valuable player in the world might leave for free. Messi's father, Jorge, was in Catalunya recently but went home to Argentina without any major advancements in the negotiations.

So whether there was a degree of a "push" to encourage Luis Enrique to fast-forward his announcement or not, the fact remains that the coach has taken the right decision at the right time and facilitated the club moving forward.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,132
Pittsburgh, PA
Great article. I disagree with the premise that "you can't go home again", though - a team that came up through La Masia together, supplemented slightly by transfers but mostly reliant on getting the very best youth prospects in the world, could happen at any time. I very much think it's possible to be a sporting club first and a business second, while also not ignoring any business opportunity that doesn't run counter to the goals of the club. The Red Sox are a great example of this, frankly, even if salary-capped sports are very different.

Do we have lineups yet? I can't friggen wait for this game.