Should the Celtics Trade Thomas

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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See I disagree with this part, Thomas is one of the single biggest defensive weaknesses in the league, there is no combination of other players that doesn't make him a terrible defender, you can't truly hide him against a good team.
Adding another playmaker is what the Celtics need, in part so they can move Thomas out and replace him with a more well rounded player.

UNRELATED:
since one criticism to the idea of trading IT is what do you get back......

Thomas
Crowder
Rozier
2018 Nets pick

for

Jimmy Butler
Portis

OR

IT
Crowder
Johnson
2019 LAC pick

for
Blake Griffin (obviously contingent on re-signing)
Paul Pierce
Thomas
Crowder
Young
Amir
Mickey
Demetrius
2019 Clippers Pick

for
Westbrook
Sabonis

OR

Thomas
"hometown" Smart for OKC to sell tix
Crowder
Amir
Young
Mickey
any non-top 5 1st round pick
2nd round pick this decade
2nd round pick next decade

for Westbrook
Sabonis
Abrines

----
In my previous post totally missed that Westbrook extended.
 

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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Why would OKC trade a top 3 talent who seemingly wants to stay there?
because their ownership has been known to make fiery crashes? And the idea popped up before I realized he re-signed.

Never know unless you ask. I have faith in Danny to get the swindle done.

But point taken
 

mcpickl

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In some sense it is an effort issue. I doubt there is another player in the NBA that carries the same offensive load as IT. IT is the only shot creator and go to scorer on the Celtics, their offensive demands on him are massive, and that does detract from what he can do on defense. (See Harden, James, for another example).

Another issue is the Celtics' short guard-heavy roster construction, which has led to a lot of minutes for IT-Bradley-Smart lineups that have been destroyed defensively. (Far worse than IT lineups as a whole).

His physical limitations are still an issue, of course, but I think that role and roster issues are part of what puts him in the 400s.
How about Westbrook, Russell? He's carrying quite an offensive load. And while he's not a good defender, he's nowhere near Isaiah. Harden, James stinks defensively, but he's nowhere near Isaiah either.

Isaiah isn't a terrible defender because he's tired from working too hard on offense, it's because he's tiny.

He's a fun player to have, and an asset at his current salary, but once he gets paid he's a negative asset in my opinion.

He's like the Celtics version of David Ortiz, but if Ortiz also had to play shortstop.
 

Eddie Jurak

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It is an interesting theory that in the particular case of James Harden the defensive lack of effort is compensating for his offensive responsibility. In my opinion watching Harden the bad defense goes above and beyond saving energy. Mostly I am writing this as an excuse to share this hilarious video (best caption was "Hardens controller disconnected":
Fair point in general, I don't think the offensive role is the whole issue with Harden, either, only a part of it.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Isaiah isn't a terrible defender because he's tired from working too hard on offense, it's because he's tiny.
Bullshit. He's always going to have problems on defense, but to argue that his offensive role has no impact at all is just dumb.
 

mcpickl

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Bullshit. He's always going to have problems on defense, but to argue that his offensive role has no impact at all is just dumb.
Didn't say it had no impact. So, bullshit rejected! I said it's not the reason he's a terrible defender. If he didn't have to work as hard on offense, he wouldn't become a good defender. Or an average one. Or even passable. Just less terrible. But still terrible.
 

Cellar-Door

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Bullshit. He's always going to have problems on defense, but to argue that his offensive role has no impact at all is just dumb.
I mean.... he was a terrible defender on his past teams when he didn't carry the offensive load. He's just not physically capable of guarding most of the starting PGs and SGs in the league at all. Maybe if he had to carry less of the load on offense he'd be a slight bit better, but his physical limitations mean that he's always going to be very bad.

Edit- Semi-unrelated but figured why add a post.
Thomas' on-off is pretty nuts (via NBAWowy)
ON court 115.9 Ortg (would be easily best in the league), 114.4 (easily worst in the league also the worst ever I believe) overall a +1.5

OFF COURT- 106.8 Ortg (would be 11th in NBA), 103.3 Drtg (would be 7th in NBA) overall a +3.5.
 
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sox311

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That's what she said.
NBA players get paid for prior performance. Isaiah is earning a lot of money right now.

In three years he is this years Monta Ellis for the Pacers. Plenty of players like that. Rashard Lewis was the highest paid player in the league playing 7 minutes a game.

I hope Isaiah is our Monta Ellis when Fultz, Ayton, and Jaylen are leading us to the eastern conference finals.

Stop trying to out smart each other and stop thinking your smarter than Danny Ainge. (Pointed at no one individually)


Mike and Tommy are just laughing watching him on fire right now.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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People who dry hump stats to make a point probably prefer reading the sheet music vs listening to the music.

The Cs are better w IT.
No one is saying that IT4 doesn't make the Cs better right now. The question is if this will be true if IT has a $25+M cap figure.

Assuming DA can't extend IT4 at a reasonable figure this off-season, the ensuing negotiations will be very interesting. As much as I love watching him, I hope someone else offers him the max because I think it's harder rather than easier at building a championship team with IT4 at a max contract.
 

Nick Kaufman

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Maybe instead of Westbrook, we offer an IT package for Wall or Beal? The Wizards greatest weakness is their bench and one thing the Celts have is bench guys.
 

lexrageorge

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This rather dark thread seems like it should be titled "Why we can't have nice things - Exhibit A".

Those advanced stats can be useful, but when they veer really far from actual game results, then they should be questioned. Kind of reminds me of when the PFF guys thought Brady was no longer a Top 10 QB.
 

slamminsammya

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People who dry hump stats to make a point probably prefer reading the sheet music vs listening to the music.

The Cs are better w IT.
I prefer listening, but I do pee sitting down.

This rather dark thread seems like it should be titled "Why we can't have nice things - Exhibit A".

Those advanced stats can be useful, but when they veer really far from actual game results, then they should be questioned. Kind of reminds me of when the PFF guys thought Brady was no longer a Top 10 QB.
Not sure what you are referring to. The only advanced stats I have seen in this thread are allusions to the fact that the advanced stats that do exist all agree on IT being a major defensive liability. This does not veer far from actual game results at all - if you watch the games it is clear that teams go after IT on the defensive end. Whoever Horford is on sets a screen on IT's man all day and the Celtics have struggled with that action all year.

People get caught up in his scoring which has been amazing, and here too the stats agree. But this is not a case of the stats people going against conventional wisdom, this is a perfect case of the stats and your intuition and observed evidence of the games matching perfectly. IT is a very unique player. An amazing scorer, a terrible defender, and the net is a very very good player.

It shouldnt remind you of PFF insulting Brady. PFF is astrology.
 

Cellar-Door

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There are no advanced stats in this thread and they aren't "far from game results" it is literally... How many points do we score? How many points do we give up?" that's about as basic as it gets.
 

mcpickl

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This rather dark thread seems like it should be titled "Why we can't have nice things - Exhibit A".

Those advanced stats can be useful, but when they veer really far from actual game results, then they should be questioned. Kind of reminds me of when the PFF guys thought Brady was no longer a Top 10 QB.
There's nothing really advanced in terms of stats here.

Unless it's advanced to say, defense counts too. It's literally half the game. It doesn't seem like a bold statement, without using any stats at all, to say the guy giving up a major height advantage to pretty much everyone he faces is an issue.

It's so strange to me that of the 4 major sports(counting hockey as #4), the average fan only cares about defense in football. Do you have to have different guys playing offense and defense to think it matters?
 

Devizier

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To argue the flipside of the plus-minus defense argument, Kyrie Irving was by +/- metrics a horrendous defender last season, and well...
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Its interesting. Thomas doesn't really have any comps in the current game. Kyrie is physically capable of defending larger players and can do so somewhat effectively in a pinch. One of the underrated aspects of Steph Curry's game is his improved defense. Yet both players suffer, to some degree, from the same affliction as IT4 - lack of size and there just isn't a remedy. Furthermore, as has been noted upthread, the energy expended at the offensive end is a thing and has some impact on how much effort players can expend on the defensive end before they end up costing the team on both fronts.

The Warriors compensated for this by surrounding Curry with plus to elite wing defenders and a rim protector in Bogut and now have KD (and now JaVale McGee) plus defensive wings to correct for Curry being the weak link. Meanwhile, the Cavs have LeBron, Thompson and defensive minded wings like Liggins and Shumpert to help for when Kyrie gets screened into a bad switch.

Assuming the C's keep Thomas, they have the wing defenders and Horford is actually decent as a rim protector. However, I wonder if adding another defensive big is where the C's will seriously look to upgrade with the new CBA taking the superstars off the market. I am not thinking Bogut because, as has been pointed out here before, he is just too injury prone and cannot get to the perimeter at this point in his career.

Instead I am looking at someone like Biyombo. Who knows if its even credible or simply fake news but Bleacher Report speculated he could be on the market. The problem is, his defensive numbers are way down this season, he signed a large contract last summer and its completely unclear what the cost would be to get him. However this is the area where I would look to upgrade if you are committed to keeping IT4.