So we are 0-5. Help me keep these kids engaged.

ivanvamp · Jan 8, 2015

Losing sucks at every level, including 5th grade rec. You need to resist the urge to coach for the victories, and it sounds like you're doing that. It's important to celebrate various kinds of success though. Try to win each quarter or half. I had a travel team one year that was in an impossibly tough league and we won 2 games all year long. We'd lose by 20 most nights but we'd "win" two quarters (and get crushed the other two). And not always the 3rd and 4th quarters after the game was out of reach. Sometimes we'd win the first two but the other team's depth wore us down eventually.

Give them other kinds of incentives. Like, ok guys, our goal today is to score at least X number of points. Or to hold them to X number of points. Let's go for that. You'll reach a bunch of those goals along the way. Praise every little individual thing they do right as often as you can. When kids try hard and get constant praise, they get motivated, even if they lose.

That's been my experience anyway.

DJnVa · Jan 8, 2015

I'm also a first year coach--girls, 11 and 12 year olds, but we don't start season until Saturday. And, as you noted, ball handling is the key skill at this age. We had a mini-tryout where I could see everyone on the court a bit (for no more than a minute each) but I made sure I drafted a girl that could obviously handle the ball, and then I drafted size. Then I completely lucked out and was assigned a girl that signed up late that plays for her middle school team and is their leading scorer (scored 11 of their 25 last night, and 16 of their 39 last week), can dribble around everyone, cross-over, etc.

But if she's not there we're going to struggle in the same area you mention.

You talk about being a decent rebounding team. Can the one kid who can dribble do it well enough to release early, get a long outlet (because the offense generally won't get back to cover at this level) and knockdown a layup or two? If you're losing by a bucket or two, you might be able to steal one or two a game by telling that kid to release once the ball is shot, assuming he's not also a kid you need to rebound.

What are the scores of these games? 20-16 type of things? Where's your scoring coming from? Theirs? You only need to steal a basket or two and maybe releasing a kid early and training your rebounders to find him. It's easy enough to run a drill to get them looking for that kid and to show him when to take off. I get it's not fundamental basketball, at least at the 10 year old level, but it may work a time or two. Any place at all you can steal a point at this level is huge--free throws, etc.

As to that wrecking ball team, just preach defense that game if you see them again and hope you luck out. At that age group, once in a while super-teams like that happen and there's nothing you can do.

Also, as Ivan says--track other things. Winning a quarter, rebounds, steals, etc. Kids want something tangible.

knuck · Jan 8, 2015

I'd say keep the focus on improving skills week to week. Be it offense, defense, boxing out, press-break, etc., just keep on improving and focus on improving some skill set each week. Keep practices moving, with drills that get everyone involved (even those not actively participating). Just be sure to repeat drills and let the kids see their own improvement. They know when they are getting better and definitely love to show off when they can do something they couldn't do at the beginning of the year.

I am in a similar position with a 10 year old team, that really doesn't have very much ability and our best kid broke his foot before Christmas. However, practices are always engaging and we really don't spend much time talking about winning or losing but rather what we learned and did well/did not do well last game and focusing on our next game and 'getting better.' So far the kids are still really into it.

I don't know how your team did last year (or if they were a team last year), but how does this year compare to that?

The only thing I would caution against is doing anything gimmicky in order to win. Stay the course with proper skills and fundamentals, which will pay off immensely down the road.

PaulinMyrBch · Jan 8, 2015

I would rally around the thing you do good. And keep the focus on that. Like the rebounding.

I had a friend who coached against me in 9-10 rec baseball. Before every inning after they'd come off the field, they would break up the huddle with "1, 2, 3 we are a hitting team!!" Then they'd go take their AB's. They didn't have any "ace" pitchers, the fielding sucked, but they were in every game because the kids "believed" they could hit. And trust me, I had coached some of those kids at different stages from 5-12, and most of them couldn't hit. But they believed they could, and the rally cry was "We are a hitting team", and I'll be damned if they weren't tough outs.

So have fun, start the "We are a rebounding team!!" slogan at your next opportunity and watch these kids take pride in rebounding and have some fun.

santadevil · Jan 8, 2015

ivanvamp said:
Losing sucks at every level, including 5th grade rec. You need to resist the urge to coach for the victories, and it sounds like you're doing that. It's important to celebrate various kinds of success though. Try to win each quarter or half. I had a travel team one year that was in an impossibly tough league and we won 2 games all year long. We'd lose by 20 most nights but we'd "win" two quarters (and get crushed the other two). And not always the 3rd and 4th quarters after the game was out of reach. Sometimes we'd win the first two but the other team's depth wore us down eventually.

Give them other kinds of incentives. Like, ok guys, our goal today is to score at least X number of points. Or to hold them to X number of points. Let's go for that. You'll reach a bunch of those goals along the way. Praise every little individual thing they do right as often as you can. When kids try hard and get constant praise, they get motivated, even if they lose.

That's been my experience anyway.

Very good advice.
I'm coaching a 9-10 y.o. hockey team with a buddy I've coached with in the past and we're at or near the bottom of the league, but we've been trying hard to keep these kids motivated and to have fun.

Even though the game results aren't where we want, my buddy and I commiserate (sp?) with each other after the game, sometimes over a beer for lunch or supper. Have a good laugh over some of the good or funny things that happen, bitch about the not so good things.

But we still have parents coming up to us, telling us that we've made hockey fun for these kids, and the little compliments seem to make it to Mom and Dad more often than we know, because they tell us that little Johnny said you told him he did this good, or that good.
I know we aren't great coaches, but if the kids all sign up to play again next year, we did a good job.

Dummy Hoy · Jan 8, 2015

Redefine success.

Success is working your hardest, success is improving each day, success is coming together as a team, success is having a fun practice, success is learning a new skill. Success should not be measured through accomplishment but through preparation, perseverance, dedication, effort, and attitude.

Edit: If you set a goal for success that isn't totally within their control (ie. "we're going to win 5 games") and you don't meet it, you're going to feel like a failure. No 10 year old athlete (or even older I would argue) should feel like a failure while participating in sports.

Heinie Wagner · Jan 8, 2015

I'm coaching 5th grade boys too, this is my middle son. I didn't get to coach my oldest until 8th grade because there were more politically connected guys, but I learned a ton from the other guys who coached him (mostly what NOT to do) and I'm having a great time with these kids.

First and foremost, always be positive - http://www.positivecoach.org/ - is a great resource. Aim for a 5:1 ratio of praise to corrections/criticism. Anything that isn't praise is a correction/criticism. Use John Wooden's definition of success - not wins and losses. W/L are meaningless at this age, teach your kids to play, don't do stuff to win games (zone defense, half court traps etc)

Use every minute you have to play basketball and focus on age appropriate activities. Don't run sprints, work running into your drills. Don't waste time working on left handed layups or boxing out those are really difficult for this age and will come much easier in a couple years. Don't waste time on things with low reps like layup lines or low game correlation like 3 man weave. Have one out of bounds play, it's amazing how many coaches have 3 or more at this age, total waste of time. Don't do anything because your high school coach did it, question whether everything is appropriate for this age and the best use of time.

Play LOTS of small sided games, 2 on 2, 3 on 3 are great, more reps, better player/ball ratio and with more space to work with, they figure out spacing much quicker than plaing 5 on 5. Play no dribble, whether it is 2v2, 3v3 or 5v5, it will be brutal at first, but your passing will improve tremendously.

Work on ball handling first thing, every practice, for 7-8 minutes. Keep the ball low, head up, right hand, left hand, crossover, between the legs, behind the back, backup dribble, spin move. Repetition, repetition, repetition.

Work on footwork, pivots, starting moves, jump stops, 1-2 stops, every practice, even if it's just for two minutes.

Play man to man pressure defense, teach them to see the ball and see their man and help. Pressure the ball on defense, push it up the court on offense, maximize the number of possessions in games and in practice and your players learn more. Better Basketball's Dynamic Defense is fantastic.

Teach kids to throw leading passes to moving teammates, kids at this age tend to want to wait until their teammate is standing still to pass the ball, and then it's too late.

Do a drill for 6-8 minutes tops, even scrimmaging, you want maximum effort and focus, going 10 minutes plus on any one thing and they lose focus or will pace themselves.

Plan your practice in writing, by the minute. You don't have to stick to it exactly, but have a plan. Vary hard stuff with easier stuff, the dry stuff with the fun stuff. If something just isn't working, move on, come back to it next practice.

Use Better Basketball's Read and React to teach offense - don't waste time on set plays, teach by principle (pass the ball, cut to the basket). Use the same principles for zone and man to man, and press break etc. Vary the configuration - 5 out vs man, 4 out 1 in vs zone. You only need the first 3-4 layers at this age. Keep it simple.

Have everybody handle the ball, not play point guard, but if you get a rebound or a steal and you can, dribble it up the court. Encourage everyone to shoot when open. Tell kids they can't be afraid to make mistakes. Make mistakes because you're trying to do things, admit the mistake, learn from the mistake and then move on. This will hurt you in the short term but pay off big time down the road.

Don't waste time - start practice as soon as you are able, don't let kids sit down for drink breaks, keep things moving, wasting time in transition from one thing to another can cost you a ton of time.

Use pre-game time wisely. There are some great Read and React drills and play 3 on 3 half court continuous, if you have 10 games, and get 5 minutes before each game to warm up, that's an extra 50 minutes, don't waste it shooting around or doing layup lines.

Read "You Haven't Taught Until They've Learned" by Swen Nater about John Wooden's teaching style.

Be patient, smile a lot, have fun, like was already said, celebrate the little things. These kids will remember you for a long time.

"Flatter me, and I may not believe you. Criticize me, and I may not like you. Ignore me, and I may not forgive you. Encourage me, and I will never forget you."

Merkle's Boner · Jan 8, 2015

I have never coached a 5th grade team that cared a rat's ass whether they won or lost 10 minutes after the game was over. I will guarantee you the losing is harder on you than on them.

twothousandone · Jan 8, 2015

It's pretty much been covered, but I was thinking redefine scoring.

1) Have them beat themselves game after game -- good shots taken, rebounds grabbed, etc. It's not a sure win, but it becomes something that they can strive for even if the scoreboard says they are losing.

2) Keep score versus the other team for a stat where your kids can win -- clearly rebounding looks to be one. Steals? Not turning it over? Contesting shots? Boxing out? That's trickier because they can lose that one as well as the scoreboard contest.

3) Highlight each individual kids accomplishment in the game. "You contested four shots today." If they start to understand that, you might push it to "Think you can contest five shots next week?" but that's probably not needed.

Heinie Wagner · Jan 9, 2015

Merkle's Boner said:
I have never coached a 5th grade team that cared a rat's ass whether they won or lost 10 minutes after the game was over. I will guarantee you the losing is harder on you than on them.

Exactly. At that age 99% of kids are over it about 2 minutes after the game is done. Parents however can obsess over wins and losses

loshjott · Jan 9, 2015

Merkle's Boner said:
I have never coached a 5th grade team that cared a rat's ass whether they won or lost 10 minutes after the game was over. I will guarantee you the losing is harder on you than on them.

This is true.

And the corollary to that is that I've coached my sons in rec and travel baseball for close to 10 years, and my worst experiences have nothing to do with tough losses, or even poor play, but the times I've lost my cool and yelled at them or otherwise strayed from the positive coaching alliance techniques that someone linked to upthread. It can't be stressed enough the importance of staying positive and being constantly encouraging.

DJnVa · Jan 10, 2015

Play this weekend? How'd it go?

DJnVa · Jan 14, 2015

Well, that's progress. What do you think it was attributed to?

We're 0-1. The opposing team had a middle school girl that didn't do a thing in first quarter (we led 4-0) drop 14 on us in second when my top player had to sit. Score got to 20-5 before we rallied and lost 27-22.

Apparently one father was in stands asking why I wasn't having his daughter front the opposing player in the post. Perhaps because she had missed 2 of the previous 3 practices and it was tough enough making sure she understood her basic assignment.

Heinie Wagner · Jan 15, 2015

"one father was in stands asking why I wasn't having his daughter front the opposing player in the post"

This is 11-12 year old girls, is that 6th grade? It is rare that a parent has any clue what is age/level appropriate. You don't teach 11-12 year olds to front the post. And even if you did, you can't teach someone to do something if they're not at practice. Parents need to understand their kids are not going to play like the players you see on TV.

It's probably too late now, but the Positive Coaching Alliance has a great parent pledge that among other things includes:

"I will refrain from negative comments about my child’s coach in my child’s presence so that I do not negatively influence my child’s motivation and overall experience."
"I will engage in No-Directions Cheering, limiting my comments during the game to encouraging my child and other players (from both teams)."

I put that into my own words and use it in a pre-season parent meeting. It's important for parents to understand that commenting negatively about coaches or giving directions to players during games will only hurt their player and their team. I even talk to a little bit older players (maybe 7th, definitely 8th grade) about not being distracted by anything off the court/in the stands, and that if I see them being distracted by anyone in the stands, their agent (usually gets a laugh) their girlfriends, or other friends, then they're going to be sitting next to me. I leave out "parent" but it's pretty obvious that they are included. I'll let the parents know that I told the players this. It's a fine line, but I'm not punishing the player for their parents actions, I'm punishing the player for allowing himself to be distracted by the actions of the parent.

Heinie Wagner · Jan 15, 2015

"we ended up losing by 2 to the team that beat us by 18 in game 1 of the season."

"Score got to 20-5 before we rallied and lost 27-22."

Nice job in both cases. Tough to get kids to believe in themselves in both those situations. You're doing something right

and it's more important than winning.

DJnVa · Jan 15, 2015

Well, I do plan on at least showing the girls a few things--maybe not fronting completely but kind of playing half and half, just to keep her active on defense, however, it's not like the opposing team has McHale down low. I'd rather have the defender behind her to keep her in sight and allow her to establish rebounding position easily.

Doug Beerabelli · Jan 16, 2015

My son does 4th grade hoops. His team plays man to man D only, which I agree is the right thing to do at this age. I think in about 15 games, we've faced man to man D three times. Zones, including something like the 3-2 - more of a two defenders meet the ball handler just over half court, and the third guys reads the ball handler and tries to pick off the pass. Our guys aren't really be coached well to deal with this alignment via using basketball skills (picks, good cuts to get open), and the coach runs a "zone" offense that I think is more problematic than it's worth because of insistence on sticking with it even after the other team figures it out. Our kids can't guard until the ball is over half court.

Aggressiveness seems to pay off at the young age, so I can see how the 3-2 could be successful.

DJnVa · Jan 19, 2015

We got a nice win Saturday--24-12, but it was 23-4 before I switched to a zone and pulled my defense back. And at that point it was basically only my guards pressing anyway. One full court, another at midcourt.

Despite the win we couldn't rebound, and this team was small. Next weekend the team's 2 best players are both bigs. Any tips for rebounding drills? A lot of rebounding it mental and hustle, but something is not getting through.

Heinie Wagner · Jan 19, 2015

Congrats, that must have felt good.

With the rebounding, are they just not trying to get them? i.e. not being aggressive enough or being uncertain
trying to get them but not quick enough to them?
getting too far under the hoop to get them (rebounds going over their heads)
getting them, but then losing them?
reaching for them with one hand and not getting them?
Waiting for the ball to come to them and more aggressive players on the other team beat them to it

I think the first step is to identify why they're not getting rebounds, then work on that - there are different things to do to improve hands than improving aggressiveness

Do you do a defensive shell drill in practice? You could add a shot and rebound part to that. In 5th grade, being tall helps, but I think being quick to the ball and having good hands helps even more.

Once they get older, the answer is boxing out, but that is very difficult to teach 5th graders, IMHO they aren't ready for it mentally. You want the ball that's over there, but take your eyes off of it, find a guy and make contact, then go find and get the ball - you can spend a lot of time trying to get 10 year olds to do that with little reward.

DJnVa · Jan 20, 2015

My girls are 6th and 7th graders, so 11-13 years old generally. There are some girls in this league that play Middle School ball, including my 2 main guards. However our next opponent has 3 of them--2 bigs and a guard, and although none play much for their school team (whereas my top player is their leading scorer) they still have more skill than most girls in the league.

I think it's a combo of getting out of position, usually too far underneath, or just not being aware enough. You have to learn to box out without really looking for that person, you have to do it by feel and they're not there yet. So they may correctly want to box out, but turn and look for someone and the ball bounces away. Last game the shortest girl on the court got 5 straight rebounds because he hustled and was aggressive. I called time out just to point this out. We were never in danger of losing, but I was hoping that had we done a good job of boarding this game, I can point it out and have it carry over, because we'll need it.

But the league is so unbalanced, it may not matter. As long as we survive the one quarter my top girl doesn't play, we're okay. When she has sat down (usually the second quarter), we've been outscored 19-1. When she plays it's something like 38-10.

Heinie Wagner · Jan 20, 2015

I like to play 3v3 or 2v2, starting with a rebound, if you have 2 coaches and 2 hoops with 10 players, you can do one at each hoop at the same time. For 3v3 offensive players start with one on either side, about a step off the block and one player in the middle of the paint, defenders get in defensive positions. Coach shoots the ball, trying to miss, from spots where the ball would be shot in games. Whichever team gets the rebound becomes the offense and tries to put it back up and in, you play live after the rebound, no taking it back, play until someone makes a shot.

Preface it with talking about not getting too far under the basket, hands up, etc, whatever you want to emphasize.

If you have something like a Skilz Rain Maker it works particularly well.

DJnVa · Feb 16, 2015

Awesome. A lot of sports is confidence. Now they know they CAN do it.

Do you mind sharing the play?

My team is 5-0, but we will be without our top player this weekend. The team we are playing we would likely beat comfortably if we had her, but she'll be out of town. The rest of my team struggles to score. Due to playing time rules, we always play at least one quarter without our top girl and it usually doesn't go well. Our top girl is being recruited by Boo Williams AAU program, so we're very lucky to have her and she scores probably 15 ppg--our team averages about 24 ppg

The rest of the girls are improving though--passing, defense, rebounding, etc. But a lot stems from her.

Our opponent this week has one pretty good player and I will need to slow her down and hopefully get lucky on the offensive end-we do have a very good press that will cause problems but we'll be missing our QB. Our #2 player is hot or cold. One game she banged in two 3-pointers in last 90 seconds to tie game, but last game went scoreless. The girls are already nervous about this week, even though the game doesn't matter. If we lose, then win our last game to finish 6-1 we'll finish in first place. But it might be nice to have them do a few things on their own as we head into the last game showdown and the postseason.

Anything really simple (including that play you ran for your PG) that I can show them that may not work over the long haul but can catch a team by surprise a few times?

DJnVa · Feb 28, 2015

Final regular season game today. We're 5-1, playing another 5-1 team, while a third 5-1 team plays an 0-6 team. Due to us giving that last 5-1 team their only loss, a win today gives us first place. However, we played this team in "preseason" and they beat us by 5. They destroyed us in the second quarter of that game 16-2, and only scored 9 the other 3 quarters (while we scored 20). The reason was our top player played the other 3 and sat in the 2nd.

With tip-off not til 4 pm I'm overthinking things--thoughts on sitting my top player in the 1st quarter? That gives her 3 quarters to lead any needed comeback and, in addition, the first quarter has a running clock, so it's generally over a little quicker.

Cons are that we haven't done that all year (our only loss was the game she missed) and that we're pretty good with what we've been doing.

Our opponents only lost their one game when their top player wasn't there--they were beaten 28-4 by a team we beat by 10. If she's not there today, we should win easily, but this age level is still dominated by the top players.

DJnVa · Mar 5, 2015

Ugh, buzzer beat--can't imagine. is their a tourney now?

We won 16-12.

I sat my top player in the first quarter--we were down 6-0, but I was pumped. In the first matchup with them, the quarter she sat we lost 16-2. So, down 6-0 after 1, they sat their top player in the second, and we outscored them 9-2 so we had a one point lead at the half. We pushed it to 6 in the 4th quarter, they cut it to 2, we pushed it back it to 4 with a minute left and my top girl fouled out. Luckily they couldn't get another hoop and while we never really threatened with her out, we were able to bleed time and knock a few loose balls around so they never had shot at tying. Kids were excited, parents were yelling. It was a lot of fun. Our top girl scored our first 14 points, but my #2 knocked down a foul line shot to reestablish a 4 point lead with like 90 seconds to go.

Postseason tourney is 5 teams--we get a bye as the #4/#5 teams play. One beat us (without my top player) and the other we beat in OT, but we should have beaten them rather easily. So, Tuesday night we play--but 3 of my girls are playing spring sports at school and have practice until 5:30--and the game is a good 30 minute drive away, so they need to hustle.

Right now, I'm dealing with my son who was cut from varsity soccer team and we're all shocked. Kid played JV last 2 years, starter last year, plays with top travel club and excelled with them--ahead of most of the kids the coach kept. He kept kids that didn't play much on JV last year, including kids a grade below him and a grade above him. He's shell-shocked. Highs and lows of kids playing sports.

DJnVa · Mar 9, 2015

Awesome man. When are the semis?

We are playing the #4 seed tomorrow. They seem to have 2 good players. Assuming I have 100% attendance, we can shut down their PG (a.k.a. "the only girl that can handle the ball") and their bigger girl won't even factor in that much.

At least that's the plan.

DJnVa · Mar 9, 2015

Sounds good. There's really no such thing as a mid-range game at this age level so just give it to them. It seems like a variation on the UVA pack line defense. If I coach next season I may use that. Defense sags in to prevent entry passes, allows perimeter movement, but does flash out on shooters.

Our possible finals opponent is claiming to "have a plan" for us. We beat them 23-13 last time. I'm sure it's a double-team on our best player, but most of our offense comes from her basically being a one player VCU Havoc defense, stealing the ball, and taking off for a layup. The double teams will only matter when they can set them up after scoring, and we completely shut them down last time. Also, their top player is too unselfish. And at this level, that hurts because even though she's making the right play, the player she's passing too is generally not much of a threat.

I do hope they have some intricate plan. Because it will last about 30 seconds once the game starts. These girls are not instinctive enough yet.

DJnVa · Mar 11, 2015

We won our semifinal last night 25-15. The other team, outside of their PG, was larger than all of our girls. In addition to the PG, they had another really good player. Their coach gambled and played them together in the 1st, 2nd, and 4th quarter, leaving the 3rd quarter wide open for us. I played my two top girls together in the 1st and 4th, and my top player was available in the 3rd, when the opposing coach sat both of hers. We were up 7-0 after one, and down 11-9 at the half, but the other coach had played her top 2 in both the first 2 quarters so I knew we had the advantage.

Well, she sat both of them in the 3rd and the score went from 11-9 them to 20-11 us. We coasted in the 4th and play the #2 seed tonight. This team is smaller than us and they have 1 good player, 1 decent, and 2 other girls that can handle the ball a little bit. We overwhelmed them last time, even in the quarter when my top girl sat. I've heard they claim they have a "plan" but I'm sure it'll be double-teaming my top player--and that happens every game and it doesn't bother her.

DJnVa · Mar 12, 2015

And, we suffered the upset in the finals.

We lost 29-23--most points we had given up all year. Last game they scored 13 on us.

They didn't do anything really tricky, but our girls lost site of their marks a bit early, so they got some points from girls they likely weren't expecting, and they had enough quickness that even when we forced their main player to give the ball up, their secondary ball-handler had enough to beat our girls. They did double our main player, but it wasn't anything we haven't seen, but she "only" scored 13 of our 23, and the ball wasn't in her hands as much as we needed--they allowed other girls to handle the ball and it paid off. We had one girl score more points than she had all season and another score her first 2, but it wasn't enough--they just did a better job of denying our top girl the ball--and a few times we forced it to her leading directly to turnovers and layups at other end.

They had us 12-5 at the half, and we had a horrible start to the third quarter and with a minute left we were down 21-9 and my star player went down with a twisted ankle. I had someone set to go in, but she hobbled up said she was okay and in the last 30 seconds we scored 6 points. We then got it to 25-21 with about 4 minutes left, then 27-23 with 2 left, but just ran out of time. We had a 3 pointer go halfway down and come out as well.

Better luck to you this weekend.

DJnVa · Mar 14, 2015

Cinderella!!!! Very nice.

The slipper still fits!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdXeWvucvH8

DJnVa · Mar 15, 2015

Wow, that sucks, especially if the refs were pissed and, in the end, hurt the kids.

Hell of an effort by your team though.

Heinie Wagner · Mar 16, 2015

Some guys officiate games for the wrong reasons, hopefully if your league President was sincere, he'll blacklist those guys from games in the future.

That's awful for your kids, but sounds like a fantastic postseason for you.

So we are 0-5. Help me keep these kids engaged.

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