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SOSH Running Dogs

Discussion in 'General Sports' started by Catch Me Bruno, May 27, 2007.

  1. MB's Hidden Ball

    MB's Hidden Ball Member SoSH Member

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    1,624
    Sorry to hear that; hope you feel better soon. Injuries/illnesses that make running untenable absolutely suck, particularly when you are feeling ready to go.
     
  2. TallerThanPedroia

    TallerThanPedroia Civilly Disobedient SoSH Member

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    I've been doing nothing but eating since I got home Tuesday. I went to see a movie yesterday and got an entire bucket of popcorn. I just weighed 126 on the scale. The lowest I've been as an adult is 128, one time after a long sweaty run. I'm like if you watched Captain America in reverse.
     
  3. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    So....

    How was that?
     
  4. GreenMountain

    GreenMountain Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Well the temp was perfect (5 degrees celsius), the torrential rain and screaming headwinds less so. Thanks to the good graces of @pv21feet I was able to spend the pre-race period in the luxurious accommodation of the gym inside instead of in the flooded refugee camp that was the athlete’s village. This was a huge help as I was not hypothermic before starting the race. I went out with the goal of going sub 2:50. I figured that was a very long shot under the conditions, but the race started off well. Felt light on my feet and was able to hold on to a 6:23 pace through mile 16 despite increasing headwinds and intense downbursts. Slowed up somewhat on the hills as expected, but was still close to my target time. The last 6 were tough as I was trying to make back time, but the winds were crazy and it was nearly impossible to make a move out of the pack without getting blown away. Approaching mile 25 I realized I would need to average sub 6:20 for the remainer to beat the 2:50 mark. I pulled off a 6:06 final mile to end up with 2:49:53 on the day. I figure the wind probably cost me about 3-5 minutes over the course of the run, so overall I was very happy with the outcome. Almost froze to death waiting in line for the insanely small single changing tent provided for 30,000 runners, but otherwise a good day.
     
  5. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    Dude, well done.

    I can't imagine.
     
  6. southshoresoxfan

    southshoresoxfan Member SoSH Member

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    I can’t picture running one mile at that pace in perfect conditions, let alone 26.2. That’s incredible.
     
  7. CSteinhardt

    CSteinhardt "Steiny" Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I'm trying to decide whether to try the Copenhagen marathon in about a month and wanted to get a bit of advice. Running isn't the primary thing I do - it's mainly crosstraining for baseball and cricket. So, I'm certainly quite undertrained. I probably average around 5-10 miles per week of dedicated running. However, the cricket training in particular involves a lot of additional running (mostly sprint intervals) and core exercises, and from a cardio point of view, I should definitely be able to complete a marathon. My goal would mainly just be to successfully finish, as I have no illusions of running a respectable time.

    I've done two past marathons on a similar lack of preparation; the first one I decided about three weeks ahead of time to just try one nearby with a lot of downhill in it, and ran a respectable time (3:51) despite doing almost everything wrong with pacing and tactics, but it also took me a while to recover from that one. I decided to run the Copenhagen marathon last year on slightly more preparation; I did a long run each of the 3-4 weeks prior, but the longest was 2.5 hours of running and around 25k. I decided to just go out very slowly to ensure I would finish, ran about a 2:15 first half and was feeling strong at that point, then collided with another running who cut in front of me then slowed down, and about a half hour later ended up cramping up badly enough that I basically had to power walk the rest of the way in and finished in something like 5:10. I don't know whether this was due to the collision changing my running stride or just due to being undertrained.

    I did the Copenhagen half in September, and was on pace to finish in around 1:50 before again cramping up with about 3k to go and basically having to stop for a few minutes. We also had severe thunderstorms, which essentially never happens in Denmark, and there was standing water for the last few km of the course, so that probably didn't help. However, it's surely the case that with more training prior to running, I would have finished.

    This winter was surprisingly cold and snowy for Denmark, and so I did almost no running outside of our cricket preseason. A couple of weeks ago I spent a few days in California and did about 15 miles of hills over a couple of runs, and then on Sunday, I did a local half marathon to see where I was at, with the plan of ignoring the time and trying to run at a fairly low effort just to complete the distance without cramps. I ended up stopping for about 10 seconds every few km during the last half to stretch out my hamstrings, but did end up finishing successfully in 1:59. However, I'm almost certain that I couldn't have done twice the distance.

    So, my question is basically whether going even more slowly is going to help or if there is something I can do in the next 3-4 weeks which will mean I can finish a marathon, or if I just need to accept that it's not going to work this year. Is there a particular exercise that will help with hamstring cramps? Realistically, the most running I can do beyond our current practice schedule would be one long run each weekend. I was thinking that I should do an easy long run this weekend to try and go as far as possible and then another half the weekend after that, then use that to decide whether to sign up. But I'd really appreciate some advice from people who do this as their primary sport, because I really don't know what I'm doing here. I would have a lot of fun running the marathon next month even if it takes me 5 hours or something, as long as I am able to run the full distance. However, walking half the way in front of a large crowd really isn't very enjoyable, so I want to make sure that I'll be able to finish -- at whatever pace -- if I sign up.
     
  8. TallerThanPedroia

    TallerThanPedroia Civilly Disobedient SoSH Member

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    Absolutely amazing. One of the things that made watching from my couch bearable was seeing so many people I know not only brave the conditions and finish, but even set big PRs.
     
  9. GreenMountain

    GreenMountain Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Thanks all! It was a wild experience, but pretty cool now that it's over.

    @CSteinhardt aside from under-training (which you seem to have a good handle on) it sounds like you are having problems with hydration, fueling, and electrolyte balance. There are dozens of different ways to approach this problem. Personally on long runs and distance races I carry a water bottle with a hand strap and use Tailwind powder in the water to hydrate and maintain electrolytes. It's similar in concept to gatorade, but much easier to drink and without the massive amount of sugar in gatorade. I also eat a metric ton of rice in the days leading up a marathon. I'm talking a bowl of rice every hour and more if I can manage. Starting on Wednesday before a Sunday race and really ramping up the intake on Friday and Saturday. Eat 2-4 hours before a race, but not closer than that. Take a half-litre or so of your drink of choice (gatorade, tailwind, etc) about 15 min before starting. During the race I drink about every mile or two depending on how I am feeling and the temperature. Hot weather you have to drink more, obviously. For a marathon the hand bottle lasts me about half the race, then I switch to water and Cliff gel packets. For longer distances I can sometimes arrange to refill the bottle and add more Tailwind powder. It's really good stuff. Also, it's hard to substitute for miles and time on feet. You really have to put in the training if you want to avoid injuring yourself on a marathon. I would not run a marathon on a month's notice if I did not have a solid running base built up. Just my 2 cents.
     
  10. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    Because I do trails I use a vest (Saloman or UD depending on how I'm feeling) and have a water bottle going with caffienated Tailwind in one and electorytes in the other. Tailwind is better than Gatorade for 1 billion reasons but mostly because it has carbs in it. The only road marathon I did (Sydney) I used the vest.

    However I understand for Boston and other big marathons they're banning/have banned vests as security issues. Not banned here yet, but I suspect that's coming too.

    I hate the handheld water bottles, grip or not, but I also have a belt (https://www.nakedsportsinnovations.com/) which I use in longer ultras for my poles and to attach the race number. I'd use that in the mara for a saloman soft flask.

    Cramps are a strange topic. (Exercise Associated Muscle Cramping) basically have nothing proven at all and there are things that 'work' but no one can prove why and things people take that work for them. Effectively no one can prove why we cramp and no one can prove anything works though different people swear by salt tabs and a mouthful of pickle juice that you spit out. The only thing that is probably true is that it's about tired muscles being asked to do things they can't do anymore; ie under-training and pushing too hard. I've cramped in the last few KM's in all 6 marathon or ultra-marathon races I've done, personally. I'm taking pickle juice on the UTA50 next month to see if I need it.
     
  11. fiskful of dollars

    fiskful of dollars Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I absolutely LOVE Tailwind. Use it for long training days and long course running/tris. I use the non caffeinated version (I pee too much w/ the caffeinated formulation). I can't run w/ anything in my hands - never feels right to me.

    I'm in awe of these Boston stories. Just amazing.
     
  12. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    I just like the Green Tea flavour, honestly. Though I run with the naked stuff in shorter races. It's funny though with aid stations you turn up and they have the two gallons of liquid, one says 'WATER' the other 'TAILWIND' and I just fill my soft flask with whatever the flavour of Tailwind is and have found none of it really matters. When I finished Tarawera in Feb I think by the end one of my flasks was Raspberry-Green Tea-Tropical-Orange-Lemon Lime flavoured and it tasted fine.

    Have you had any Tailwind: Rebuild? It's a thing that Tailwind is marketing like crazy here atm that's just about to be on sale for the first time. I have been looking for something for post-long runs. I can't drink milk when I've excercised even though milk is amazing, and I don't eat bananas even though they're amazing. T:R sounds pretty cool.
     
  13. CSteinhardt

    CSteinhardt "Steiny" Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Thanks for the advice - a bit of a stupid question as a followup. How do you carry all this stuff when running? Do you carry one of these mini-backpacks? I would have thought that would get really heavy if you're carrying water instead of just using aid stations. I think I'll try a version of this for a long run tomorrow and see how things go.
     
  14. TallerThanPedroia

    TallerThanPedroia Civilly Disobedient SoSH Member

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    11,498
  15. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    Like I said, vests. Saloman, Ultimate Direction, Nathan's and Camelbak make most of them. But in some US marathons they're banned, fyi.

    They're more of a trail thing.

    A lot of road runners use belts.
     
  16. fiskful of dollars

    fiskful of dollars Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    1,093
  17. rbeaud

    rbeaud Member SoSH Member

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    Seems like a late, though opportune time to jump on the cramps/fueling discussion. My January marathon in the Bahamas was a disaster. I used my own fluids, carrying three bottles using a belt for two and handheld for the third. Each was filled with ~10 oz UCAN mix and I took more of the same 30 min before the race (usually have a 2nd dose 90 min before though not this time). During the two downhill stretches across the Paradise Island bridges I discovered that the belt couldn't hold the heavy bottles (nothing like chasing your fuel down a bridge forcing you to carry all three!). My plan was to sip 2 oz every 2M. Stinger packages would carry me through the last 6M. About mile 13 I could tell this wouldn't be a fun race, even though on pace for 3:30 or better. I was working through fuel as anticipated, though around mile 18 I knew more was needed and began to hit Gatorade/water at the several stops (offered every mile). Then mile 23 my right calf cramped and wouldn't bear weight while running. I resorted to walking. By mile 24 I figured the end was near and it should be a running finish...only to collapse in agony as my muscles spasmed uncontrollably. Fortunately, I was 50m from the medical tent. About one hour later, I had taken in 32 oz of Gatorade and one bolus of fluid via IV. The IV rocked and I felt awesome! Finished the race in about 5 hr with a medical truck following me to the end :) Had I finished without incident, would have been AG winner and received a conch shell trophy. Drat! Double drat since I did win one 3 years earlier though didn't receive it having left early (because of cramps).

    One of the reasons for bringing my own fuel was to avoid the carb crash by using UCAN. Also, I really wanted to avoid having to pee on the race course! For some reason I simply can't avoid the bathroom in the marathon!?!? When the Dr. asked how much I had for fluids, he felt my 30 oz were inadequate. Obviously, finishing without an IV while hitting the port o' let is preferred to needing medical attention. Still would like to run without the breaks, or is that asking too much?

    Obviously, I haven't planned properly for warm races. All my warm weather marathons (Bahamas 2x, Burlington, VT, & Boston '17) have been cramp ridden and miserable on the back half. Starting temps this go around were about 55F whereas my 2nd BQ (5+ to spare) was run with starting ambient of 28F. For this cool one, I hardly hit the water on the course (did have to stop though...grrrr!). I'm really at a loss how to prepare for future marathons, though clearly need to err on the safe side and hit fluids earlier & more often than usual.

    BTW, I tried my fuel strategy for my last long run as a trail for the race. Other than having slushy fluid because of 20F ambient, it went well. Guess I shouldn't have expected the same performance when it was +45F warmer.

    I'm open to any advice...
     
  18. Jerrygarciaparra

    Jerrygarciaparra My kid has superpowers SoSH Member

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    FWIW I ran the 35th Annual James Joyce Ramble in Dedham, MA this past Sunday.

    It's a 10k with folks in period dress reading aloud from the works of James Joyce every half mile or so (seriously!) Unfortunately I went by them fast enough that i couldn't pick out more than a few words, and I eventually stopped taking out my earbuds.

    But it's a fairly flat and fast course, and Jack's Abbey gave out free beer afterwards. And Dedham is a nice little town

    http://www.ramble.org
     
  19. GreenMountain

    GreenMountain Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    I don't have much advice, just that I have had a similar experience with warm-weather marathons and long runs, though not to the same degree. I think the problems all stem from dehydration and electrolyte imbalance. I have not figured out how to take in enough fluids to replace what is being lost. If I try to drink more my stomach gets upset, but if I don't drink more I lose it because of dehydration. The best I've been able to do is carry a bottle with Tailwind and carry more reserve packs of Tailwind powder. When I run out of fluid I can refill with a pre-measured powder and water. This worked pretty well for me on the one trail ultra I did, but hard to manage on a road marathon when trying to maintain a goal pace. The upshot is that warm weather sucks for running and we should move to Canada or Norway.
     
  20. drleather2001

    drleather2001 given himself a skunk spot SoSH Member

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    Warm weather sucks for running, but it's basically speed training, if your goal is to run a marathon in cooler weather later on. Running in summer heat equips your body to be more efficient and ultimately faster in the fall.

    And I fucking hate running in the cold. Well...pure, crisp, cold I can stand but damp, clammy cold, and early dark with ice on the path is the worst kind of running.
     
  21. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    Yeah the difference between trail ultras and road maras are huge. The relentless watch-watching kms/min road stuff where you're aiming to finish within a 5 minute time-range if that, is totally different when you're trying to just finish a 55km race in a 6 to 7 hour window. In ultras you will generally stop for a minute or two at an aid station and add your tailwind to your bottles etc. In a road mara you're not giving up the minutes you need to get that done.

    My friend and a guy who I get a lot of running advice from is Kerry Suter - he is a mad kiwi elite ultra runner who is now pretty obsessed by stats and tech. He wrote this about cramping, compiling a lot of stuff... might be worth a read. Lays out a lot of the 'he said/she said' of cramping:

    https://squad.run/exercise-associated-muscle-cramping-intervention-and-prevention/
     
  22. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    14,056
    I've done two ultras and a marathon in the last year; I have cramped in all of them.

    First Ultra, 50k, I cramped in the quad and both calves about 75% up a brutal 400 step climb, but got through it after shaking out at the top. I'd been putting 1/2 an electroloyte tab under my tongue for the preceeding 10km. Didn't help.

    Marathon, I cramped in the 200m home stretch when I tried to kick into a sprint. Wicked painful hamstring that was agony if I didn't stand still, which I wasn't really going to do in the finishing chute. Took like 5 minutes of stretching to get rid of it across the line and then never came back after walking it off. I was just using tailwind and eating gels.

    Second ultra, 65km, cramped in the flats with 3km to go, also in the right hamstring. Run 100m, agony, stetch for a min, walk 100m, run 100m, agony, repeat for 15 minutes until I crossed the line. Heavily using salt tabs during the run. Also the first time I ran without taking gels, which immensely helped my nausea but didn't help with the cramp.

    I have another ultra in two weeks - I am going to take the pickle juice. I'm aiming for the intervention strategy Kerry outlined in the above link this time. Prevention doesn't seem to be doing anything. I hope not to have to use it but I also kind of don't want to carry it all day.
     
  23. CSteinhardt

    CSteinhardt "Steiny" Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I ended up deciding to try the marathon tomorrow, so we'll see how it goes. In case anybody is thinking about doing something similar, I'll include my (lack of) training plan. I did a half marathon 4 weeks out, then a trail half the next week with 2 hours of cycling on the way back to get to a workout of similar duration to a marathon, and then finally a half on a hilly course two weeks out (the one I will be running is completely flat) before mostly resting for the remainder of the time.

    I tried one of the vests you recommended for the hilly half marathon but it was pretty uncomfortable, so I probably won't use it tomorrow. However, it seems like an ideal thing to have for long bike rides, so thanks for the recommendation!

    The thing I'm most worried about tomorrow is the weather -- it's supposed to be around 70 F at the start and going up to around 75, which is warmer than Copenhagen reached all of last summer. From what I've read, this means a marathon time will be around 8% slower than it would be otherwise. So I'm thinking that between the weather and not having run the full distance in training, I'm going to aim for about a 2:25 first half (my time for a half should be around 1:55) and then see how things go from there. Does that sound about right?
     
  24. CSteinhardt

    CSteinhardt "Steiny" Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Well, it didn't go all that well, but I did finish. Probably would have felt better if I had been less undertrained, but I kinda knew that was the case coming in, and the hot weather definitely didn't help. Thanks for the advice - will take a nice long rest and then think about actually training if I do one again!
     
  25. Joe Sixpack

    Joe Sixpack Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    3,650
    On the fueling stuff, a guy I work with - in his 50s and ran a 3:15 qualifier and then a 3:30 at this year's Boston - recommended this stuff called e-gel. I haven't tried it yet but it looks promising.

    It's a gel but it also includes a fully balanced electrolyte supply, so you just drink plain water throughout while using it and it's supposed to keep you going.

    I'm planning on giving it a try this summer when it's hotter and I'm running longer. I'll report back how it works.

    This guy also says he just pees on himself during road marathons to save time and not have to stop... Not sure about that one.

    https://www.cranksports.com/egel/
     
  26. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    He's running 3:15's and needs to urinate doing a road marathon? Dude is drinking too much water.
     
  27. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    I find this interesting in that article:

    I don't get irritated, I get more and more nauseated on gels over time so I'm unsure if he's indicating the same thing. I definitely haven't heard about the 'right level of water' point though it sounds plausible. I wonder why drinking a sports drink or tailwind wouldn't dilute the gel as much as water though.
     
  28. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    I ran the Ultra Trail Australia 50km on Saturday. It was the second time I've run that race, though a different course. It was an interesting day. I was hoping to run 6:30 to 7 hours, after running 7:39 last year. Everyone said the course this year was much tougher than last year, and I do agree, but I'd trained on it a lot and was another year stronger than the same time in 2017.

    Toeing the line in Start Group 3 with good friends, I got out nice and easy, sticking to a strategy of cruising downs, maintaining a good but not top pace on the flats and not overworking the ups. Through the first 17km to the first checkpoint I was doing well, having managed the very difficult climbing down, up, down and up into the valley from the escarpment through through the Leura Cascades, and it was amazing to see Skye waiting for me. A quick kiss and word on the phone to the kids and I was off. The next stage was hard too, but I stayed with it and kicked myself to run the flats through Tablelands Road as my body was starting to tell me it wasn't cruising anymore. I made the 28.8km checkpoint at QVH right on best-case time. Hoping for 3:30, I arrived at 3:23 and gave myself 7 minutes of fingerbun eating/warm flat coke drinking rest.

    The next stretch was the Kedumba valley, 22km of straight down followed by straight up. Two weeks earlier I ran this section in training in 2:30. I knew I couldn't do that now but dared to dream of 3 hours. My plan was to stick to form and fly downhill. In hindsight, it's where I started to fall apart. My legs were tired, obviously, and as I went down I realised they were wobbly and I was having difficulty maintaining strict cadence, good mid-strike and tight footfall. They were just tired. And I paid for it. With 12 to go, I started to climb back up. 8km of steep mountain climb lay in front and it was very, very hard. I was feeling sick and deep, dark, doubts were entering my mind. In my previous ultras I'd never heard those negative thoughts but I heard them in Kedumba.

    Sadly, they got to me in a way I'm still disappointed to acknowledge. By the time I hit the last aid station, with 6 or so to go, I was aware time was slipping well away and 6:30 was impossible. Embarrassingly, I even fleetingly contemplated quitting. Only for a moment but it happened. Friends started to pass me here, and their words of encouragement meant a lot, from Ger (running the hills!) to Clare and Tom. A bloke called Andrew in particular from the Squadrun family was hurting but stuck with me for a few hundred gruelling metres uphill, trying to distract me. I really appreciated it, even if I couldn't talk back. Brian found me when I hit the Sewerage works, the last hill push, 5 to go. I couldn't run by then, as the poor downhill had lead to a searing ITB in my left knee, just like last year's UTA. Agony on anything flat or downhill. Brian stayed with me too but with my blessing reluctantly pushed on and finished incredibly well. I walk/ran through the next four in the Leura forest, and then hit the Furber stairs, people passing me and frustrating weighing heavily. Furber took way too long to climb, but I made it to the top and managed a run through the chute. My time was ultimately 7:15, a great result in the context of the course and last year, but I can't shake the feeling of how much I left down on Kedumba.

    Next year, next year, they say and we'll see where I am then. There's so many ultras around, and Margaret River really sounds enticing... but for now, UTA is done.

    Couple photos.

    [​IMG]

    And this one is called 'Are you there, God? It's me, Adam, and I need some help on these stairs.' It's about 400m from the end which is a 951 step climb.

    [​IMG]

    And the profile - [​IMG]
     
  29. fiskful of dollars

    fiskful of dollars Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    EPIC!!! That's all I have to say. Congrats and well done!
     
  30. rbeaud

    rbeaud Member SoSH Member

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    Feeling guilty for dropping in to whine about peeing, not following up, and when I do and seeing what Syd worked through...sheesh, EPIC indeed! And congrats to CS for taking it on, I'm not brave enough to try the marathon feeling undertrained.

    To all, thank you for the feedback on my running woes. I'm signed up for Steamtown in the October and Bahamas again in January. Will try to see if any new tricks help with cramping and just live with port o' let breaks if it can't be helped.

    So for Steamtown, it has a net 850 ft (260m) drop, most of it in the first half. Any training suggestions? I've run Corning Wineglass which was 200 ft...hardly noticed it. Also BQ'd with plenty of margin, so that's something to hope for this fall.
     
  31. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    Tight cadence, midfoot strike, don't apply the quadbrakes, ie all the stuff I couldn't manage that fucked me up ;)

    Thanks. It was a good run. I have a nice trail 36k in two weeks at Rafferty's Coastal (https://raffertyscoastalrun.com.au/course-information/) and went back to running last week. Achilles are both super tight from calves, but I'll ideally just treat it like a good training run and cruise it. It's got some beach running which will be new but I'm doing a beautiful run in September called Coastal Classic that's about 34 that has several k's (including the last 4) of beach running, and legit dry sand running, not hard-packed low tide stuff, and I need to practice on it because I'd like to go hard and get a good time.

    I don't have anything really big on the radar, and contemplating the next run. Considering a road mara somewhere but I'd really like to get into a 100km run in the next 12 months so might try and get an 85km one done that's relatively flat somewhere nice for a family holiday. My wife, who's from California, keeps talking about the Big Sur Marathon, and that's in April... We'll see. But I feel like there's a hole in my training without that big one to look forward to.
     
  32. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    BTW I didn't mention it but re: the cramps... as mentioned, I've played with all the salt tabs, etc to try and stop cramps from happening and didn't have any luck. This time I bought a pickle juice style liquid for the intervention of cramps, ie to stop them when they start. I got a slight quad thing pulsing at me on the right, and drank some of the liquid and it was insane, it fucking worked. Like, the cramp felt like it literally deflated, like a balloon. Immediately. I couldn't believe it. For me, I'll be carrying that stuff every long run now.
     
  33. rbeaud

    rbeaud Member SoSH Member

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    289
    What product and how much did you consume? I've seen some 2.5 oz bottles that would be worth carrying.
     
  34. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    14,056
  35. Jerrygarciaparra

    Jerrygarciaparra My kid has superpowers SoSH Member

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    3,132
    So my Garmin Forerunner 110 bit the dust after six years of service, and I've upgraded to one with a heart rate monitor.

    Google tells me I should be doing the bulk of my running at "Heart Rate Zone 2"

    Except I can't get below 3.5. Do I really need to run so slowly? It seems counter intuitive.
     
  36. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

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    Wrist based HR monitors are notoriously unreliable, first. Second, yeah VO2 Max is the hot thing with the coaching.

    I'm repeatedly told that you should do your slow training runs slow and your fast training runs fast ... someone I know who is a professional runner (trail) and also coach posted this in a forum recently on the topic, might be worth looking at the reasons we're told to slow down?

    http://mile27.com.au/ask-the-coach/
     
  37. southshoresoxfan

    southshoresoxfan Member SoSH Member

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    5,164
    I will say the newest Apple Watch is pretty good on runs. I wore a chest strap and the watch for a couple runs and they were nearly identical.

    Sometimes when weightlifting the watch gets jumpy when I’m doing an explosive clean and jerk or snatch but generally recovers and gives me a good idea of where I am at before I start the next set.
     
  38. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

    Messages:
    14,056
    Yeah I like the wrist monitor on my Fenix3 too. I have heard stories about it being all over the place though.
     
  39. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

    Messages:
    14,056
    Related, the coach in my group just posted this to an entirely seperate discussion but I thought it was interesting enough and timely to pass on:

    HR is a measurement of cardiac load.
    It is one of many tools you can use.
    All tools have strengths and weakness and are appropriate in different situations.
    You are correct in that different factors impact that stress. You name some but miss a few that matter.
    .
    Cadiovascular drift (CVD) will see your HR increase over time in higher intensity training. Take a session like 1km reps. You know from experience that your HR gradually climbs as the session goes on and by your 5th or 6th 1km rep your recovered heart rate is much higher than your first few reps and you session maxHR is likely to be on one of those last reps. So was HR your training tool or was it just something you recorded of interest?
    I don't know anyone that does a session like 1km reps with HR as the governor for effort or duration. What would that even look like?
    6x 160bpm for 4min w/ 120bpm recovery.
    And the end result of that session would be nothing like 1km reps.
    .
    The opposite of that upwards trend would be REDUCED cardiac effort in long runs or races. As you fatigue the demand on oxygen delivery decreases so if you look at your HR in your longest races you'll notice it declines as you lose the locomotive energy to run. You're slowing down and your heart is working less.
    If you had some prescribed HR that you wanted to race at you'd likely find it difficult to sustain late in the race.
    It is also significantly effected by your hydration.
    .
    If you really understand your heart rates it can be an excellent tool in the right situation. Impose a ceiling on an easy run or as a guide in a longer race to prevent yourself from going out too fast. In racing situations, appreciate that it is a good tool from minutes 10 through to about 90 once the heart has reached normal operating levels and before fatigue and hydration can be a factor for cadiac stress.
    Outside of power or RPE there aren't many other tools you could use as a limiter and RPE can be a poor guide in the first third of your ultra as you 'feel' great (tapered, rested etc).
    .
    Lastly, not all HRMs are created equally. Bad information is worse than no information. PPG sensors dislike water and sweat where-as ECG sensors love it. We're yet to see a reliable PPG sensor and most athletes choose not to wear an ECG.
     
  40. Jerrygarciaparra

    Jerrygarciaparra My kid has superpowers SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,132
    That's a lot to think about. Thanks!

    It's also possible that since I turn 50 in a few months that nothing on body works right anymore and never will again.
     
  41. rbeaud

    rbeaud Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    289
    Syd,

    What do you think of the Fenix? I’ve been eyeing the Fenix 5S (soon to be the “old” model). I think for the bulk of my running, a wrist HR monitor will do the trick. And I wouldn’t mind understanding my sleeping patterns better. Plus the geeky running pod!

    Jerry,

    I believe many runners tend to go to hard on easy/long days, particularly novice runners (guilty!). Beating yesterday’s run is certainly fun, though at best fruitless in the long run. It could even be dangerous leading to injury if you ignore signs of fatigue. I needed some running maturity, plus injuries, to welcome slow pace without anxiety.

    The Garmin HR strap (chest) is good and it didn’t take me long to acclimate. For me the annoying thing is after the original battery died, subsequent batteries didn’t last long. I love the 305/910 series of running computers which, among others, will interface with the strap.

    Your HR zones are somewhat individual and determining max will help you arrange the zones. If you can talk comfortably on a long/easy run, likely the effort is on target.

    Specifically to your question about HR training, you may also consider the Fenix 5 series. Garmin advertises that it incorporates a proprietary package that will analyze the stress of your running. From that information, it can indicate over/under/optimal training status. And did I mention it works with a running pod that provides analytics like contact time???
     
  42. TallerThanPedroia

    TallerThanPedroia Civilly Disobedient SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,498
    I treated myself to a Garmin 935 (I need a post-pneumonia treat) and wore both it and my 910xt with the HR strap on some runs, and the HR charts were almost indistinguishable. The wrist HR takes a little longer than the chest to notice a change, but that's just biology. Now, I never knew if the HR strap was accurate either, but as long as it's consistent, it's fine. And the strap would often go quite wonky. At the start of the NY Marathon it said my HR was over 200 for the first two miles.

    The GPS, however, is noticeably different. The 935 was about .01 miles per mile behind the 910xt. Again, I don't know which is more accurate, and it's not a huge difference. Plus, it means the 935 thinks I'm running slower, so I guess it'll help motivate me.
     
  43. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

    Messages:
    14,056
    I love my Fenix3, mate. .. and while I really want to upgrade I think I'll wait until I attempt my first 100km next year, and I'll aim for whatever the latest Garmin is, hoping for battery life.

    BTW I run with it beeping a 180 cadence the whole time. It's barely audible to others but it keeps me honest, which is why I'm not too stressed about the pod.
     
  44. fiskful of dollars

    fiskful of dollars Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,093
    I have the Fenix 5X. It is amazing. I use a chest strap if I want accurate HR data. The optical wrist monitor is OK but doesn't work in the water (obviously) AND I turn the watch on my wrist so I can see the data when I'm on the bike. In aero position, the watch faces away from the rider.

    As a pure running watch, the Fenixes (phoenices?) are top-notch in my opinion. I like the feedback re running performance stats during the run. Afterwards, I can see where my form began to fall apart. The VO2Max algorithm is flawed, I think. There's no way my VO2Max is 58. I wish I was that much of a badass. The race predictor also has me at a 2:45 marathon. My PR is......not that fast. So, some of the algorithms are a little off. The rest of the features are very good to excellent in my experience. Battery life in the 5x is extraordinary.
     
  45. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

    Messages:
    14,056
    Yep that's the one I want if I were to buy right now.

    I just wish the Fenix series could be recharged while being worn. Actually that's the 3, I have no idea about the 5's.... that's another issue with Garmin, all the fucking chargers are different.
     
  46. Joe Sixpack

    Joe Sixpack Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,650
    The Garmin 935 battery lasts pretty long as it is (I routinely get about 8-10 hours of running over a week or so before having to charge), but it also has an UltraTrac mode that records data points less often and lasts for 60 hours.
     
  47. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

    Messages:
    14,056
    The Fenix with the gps and WBHR gives me about 16 or so, longest I've been out is 10, but I'd be pushing towards 16 or so in a 100 so I'd want to have 20 hours in the bank. Would hate to lose the watch at the end, and make the run not count.
     
  48. TallerThanPedroia

    TallerThanPedroia Civilly Disobedient SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,498
    The only caveat here is that I got a new watch on June 1st (so going from chest strap to wrist sensor), so I don't know that these are all exactly comparable, but the HRs I'm getting don't seem off compared to how I feel when I'm running.

    That aside, not only have I recovered from the pneumonia, I seem to be in better shape than I was in March:

    Shorter Tempos 2018.png

    Again hard to tell because it's been so damn hot out (just look at last Friday) and the wind is always a factor (the typical west wind means first mile tail wind, second two miles headwind when I run 3 miles). But compare today to March 9th, for instance.

    These are just the short tempos I do on Fridays, but the longer ones I do on Mondays tell a similar story.
     
  49. MB's Hidden Ball

    MB's Hidden Ball Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,624
    Does your watch measure the temperature or download it?
     
  50. TallerThanPedroia

    TallerThanPedroia Civilly Disobedient SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,498
    My new watch claims to measure the temperature, but since it's on my wrist it clearly is thrown off by my body heat. I think that feature is more for biking when you've got it mounted on your bars.

    The temps above come from Garmin Connect which just pulls from the nearest weather station (Logan, in my case) so I've had that data for years. I check it against Accuweather, etc. too.
     

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