Surround Sound 2015

[Couperin47]

For those adventurous enough to take the advice of  Sumner or me and want decent serious audio, besides speakers you're going to need something to power them (except for the subwoofer). There are an amazing number of last generation receivers available on eBay for silly money, but in case that seems like too much of a risk, Newegg currently has 2 refurb options that are of very high quality, but also new enough to offer every feature and amenity you could possibly want: Pass-Thru HDMI (TV will run even when the receiver is turned off) that can handle 4K and has HDMI audio return, True Dolby,  DTS-HD, front panel USB in, mic & speaker setup/calibration. Both these are Yamahas which mean good quality and specs on the high end for inexpensive receivers. Usual 90 day warranties
 
HTR-3967  5.1 Real rated power 70w/channel    $170
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16886971022
 
HTR-4066BL  5.1  Real rated power 80w/channel     $205
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16886971014&ignorebbr=1
 
This one adds Dolby Digital Plus, true Burr-Brown 192k/24 bit DACs, FLAC/WAV 192k playback, Pandora/Spotify, AirPlay, AV control via your phone or tablet, dual TOSlink optical inputs. In short this is the Network aware upgrade to the 3967.  The Newegg specs says this has a 1 yr warranty, but they recite specs that seem to think this is a speaker system, I'm quite sure you're getting the standard 90 day warranty, but since these are factory refurbs they should be pristine.

 

[SumnerH]

For those adventurous enough to take the advice of  Sumner or me and want decent serious audio, besides speakers you're going to need something to power them (except for the subwoofer)

The monoprice monitors I recommended are powered, you don't need a receiver with them if you have the line-level outputs you need.

 

[Couperin47]

The monoprice monitors I recommended are powered, you don't need a receiver with them if you have the line-level outputs you need.

 
Which is fine if you want to settle for 2 or 2.1 output, can't even generate the center channel on 5.1 Dolby content, and especially as you get older, that channel is often crucial for dialog.

 

[SumnerH]

 
Which is fine if you want to settle for 2 or 2.1 output, can't even generate the center channel on 5.1 Dolby content, and especially as you get older, that channel is often crucial for dialog.

 
 
 
It works just fine for my 5.0 setup (my sound card could drive 7.1, but I don't feel the need for the extra mid speakers in a relatively small room and I'm not a big fan of subwoofers if you have decent speakers).

 

[Couperin47]

, way
 
 
It works just fine for my 5.0 setup (my sound card could drive 7.1, but I don't feel the need for the extra mid speakers in a relatively small room and I'm not a big fan of subwoofers if you have decent speakers).

 
LOL wait to you get older.. way too much content in 5.1 channels almost all the dialog to the center channel and the single most common complaint my friend with a high end audio store hears from those over 50 is they have to play everything too loud because they can't make out what's being said... the solution is always a decent directional center channel speaker. As for subwoofers, most folks these days refuse to even consider full range speakers that can get seriously low due to their size and besides music, in home theater it's all about explosions and related disasters...just last night it was the HBO premier of the latest Godzilla...I mean pointless unless you're rattling the walls, especially since the whole thing was so dark and murky most of the cgi was wasted...

 

[crystalline]

 
 
 
It works just fine for my 5.0 setup (my sound card could drive 7.1, but I don't feel the need for the extra mid speakers in a relatively small room and I'm not a big fan of subwoofers if you have decent speakers).

So you're talking about something like this, driven off a sound card or TV that has 5.1 outputs? I assume you could add other speakers if you want the rest of the audio channels?

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=115&cp_id=11504&cs_id=1150401&p_id=605800&seq=1&format=2

 

[Couperin47]

Yes, those

So you're talking about something like this, driven off a sound card or TV that has 5.1 outputs? I assume you could add other speakers if you want the rest of the audio channels?

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=115&cp_id=11504&cs_id=1150401&p_id=605800&seq=1&format=2

 
Yes, those are their finest atm, within the past 2 months they were even on sale for under $200...
 
EDIT: today promo code WKND15 should also get you an extra 15% discount with free shipping

 

[Nick Kaufman]

Elemental question. What is a monoprice monitor?

 

[Couperin47]

Elemental question. What is a monoprice monitor?

 
Just click on the link in Crys' post above: these are self powered very high quality bookshelf size speakers, add a decent sub and they can easily outperform speaker setups 2 to 3 times the price...being self powered they are very useful for those who are running from a mixer or computer audio analog output.

 

[SumnerH]

 
LOL wait to you get older.. way too much content in 5.1 channels almost all the dialog to the center channel and the single most common complaint my friend with a high end audio store hears from those over 50 is they have to play everything too loud because they can't make out what's being said... the solution is always a decent directional center channel speaker. As for subwoofers, most folks these days refuse to even consider full range speakers that can get seriously low due to their size and besides music, in home theater it's all about explosions and related disasters...just last night it was the HBO premier of the latest Godzilla...I mean pointless unless you're rattling the walls, especially since the whole thing was so dark and murky most of the cgi was wasted...

But I have the center channel in my 5.0 setup, so all the arguments about that being needed to hear don't carry water. I have it.

And if I wanted a sub I could just plug it in; that's a personal choice, but doesn't require a receiver to implement, just buying a sub. And most subwoofers are already powered anyway; that doesn't change the discussion at all, even if you disagree with me and want one.

The idea that you need a receiver or are limited to 2.0 or 2.1 is just nonsense with modern setups. As I said I can run 7.1 (forget 5.1) off the shelf without a separate receiver taking up space, and I didn't intentionally plan for that; it's becoming pretty common with the machine builds you and I are recommending in other threads just as a byproduct.

 

[Couperin47]

But I have the center channel in my 5.0 setup, so all the arguments about that being needed to hear don't carry water. I have it.

And if I wanted a sub I could just plug it in; that's a personal choice, but doesn't require a receiver to implement, just buying a sub. And most subwoofers are already powered anyway; that doesn't change the discussion at all, even if you disagree with me and want one.

The idea that you need a receiver or are limited to 2.0 or 2.1 is just nonsense with modern setups. As I said I can run 7.1 (forget 5.1) off the shelf without a separate receiver taking up space, and I didn't intentionally plan for that; it's becoming pretty common with the machine builds you and I are recommending in other threads just as a byproduct.

 
We are not disagreeing, just talking past each other. Most people I know or deal with do not feed their main video setup via a computer (though media boxes are becoming more popular), absent that a receiver is the most common solution. Everything I've said assumes a sub will be self powered, which is why relatively low power receivers are  fine for almost any size home environment. Finally, while there are a few excellent self-powered speaker options (the Monoprice being great bargains), the number of good passive speaker options is an order of magnitude greater.

 

[SumnerH]

So you're talking about something like this, driven off a sound card or TV that has 5.1 outputs? I assume you could add other speakers if you want the rest of the audio channels?

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=115&cp_id=11504&cs_id=1150401&p_id=605800&seq=1&format=2

Exactly, yeah.  I have those up front, and older monitors as rears and center.

 

[Nick Kaufman]

 
Just click on the link in Crys' post above: these are self powered very high quality bookshelf size speakers, add a decent sub and they can easily outperform speaker setups 2 to 3 times the price...being self powered they are very useful for those who are running from a mixer or computer audio analog output.

 
Thanks. It's the first I heard of it.

 

[crystalline]

Exactly, yeah.  I have those up front, and older monitors as rears and center.

Stupid question: how likely is it that a TV will have 5.1 outputs? Does this work best for computer-driven setups?

Right now I use rdio on a Roku directed through a TV and out to a big Jambox. Its a small room. At some point I should upgrade the audio. Those monitors look great.

 

[Couperin47]

Stupid question: how likely is it that a TV will have 5.1 outputs? Does this work best for computer-driven setups?

Right now I use rdio on a Roku directed through a TV and out to a big Jambox. Its a small room. At some point I should upgrade the audio. Those monitors look great.

 
Almost all current TVs will offer a digital optical Toslink output that gives you full 5.1 data, some also offer digital coaxial output (looks like a single RCA female). Now to clarify, once you have this stream you need something to decode it (Dolby Digital, DTS Digital or better) to provide analog signals. Once you have the analog signals you can feed these to powered speakers like the Monoprice monitors and any powered subwoofer, or to an amplifier and then standard passive speakers.
 
Computer setups where your source is a tuner card or Internet input decode the digital 5.1 and offer analog signals via miniplugs on motherboards.
 
If not using a computer, most people grab either the HDMI or TOSlink output from their cable or sat box or DVD/Bluray player to feed a receiver.  The issue is that while your TV does decode 5.1 digital internally, it doesn't offer the resulting low level analog outputs to you (it users them internally to power the laughably inadequate internal stereo speakers or it offers external powered speaker outputs, generally 10 or 20 watts tops, for just 2 external stereo speakers).
 
The solution is a device like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Analog-Audio-Decoder-Converter/dp/B0057UNPVO/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t/185-4923648-1987669
 
These are not too popular, there are a bunch of boxes at half this price that decode TOSlink to 2 channel analog, including one that Monoprice sells that must be avoided, they will not decode 5.1 digital and only provide stereo output. Most people give up and simply buy a low end receiver with a TOSlink input that provides more stable/flexible decoding and amps, which then allows them to use passive speakers.
 
It's also possible to add a sound card to a computer which has TOSlink input, feed the TV output to it, let it decode and grab your analog outputs. At one time companies like M Audio offered very high quality audio cards for use in PCs, they have abandoned that market, the remaining companies in the soundcard market are all totally gamer oriented but there are plenty of cards in the $80/$100 range that include TOSlink input and offer 5.1 or even 7.1 analog outputs. The analog outputs will all be miniplug so you'll be using a mess of miniplug to rca adapters.
 
This all should be simpler, but sadly it's not.  If there are any other options I have overlooked, Sumner will remind me of what I missed

 

[crystalline]

That is very useful. Thanks.

 

[SumnerH]

If the question is about whether you can skip a surround receiver:  Essentially, the DVD or broadcast program has a surround-encoded audio stream; that needs to be decoded into the 6 (or 8 for 7.1, or whatever) separate audio line-level streams.  Or to stereo.  Stereo decoding is easy and license-free, and most TVs do have line-level stereo outs (the red and white RCA plugs).
 
Most TVs do not have a 5.1 or 7.1 surround decoder built in, so they can't have line-level surround output.  They do an optical pass-through of the still encoded surround signal through a SPDIF cable (TOSlink or coax) or send it over HDMI or similar.  Some PVRs and computer setups have onboard surround decoding with line-level outputs (my computer takes HDMI input from the TV and does the surround decoding itself in the PVR software).  Some DVD/Bluray players also have built-in decoders with line-level outputs; if they have recording capabilities, you can sometimes feed the TV through that input to get surround decoding (that's fairly rare).  
 
There are also external surround DACs that are much smaller than a receiver that you can plug in a TOS or other input and get line-level RCA outputs from if you don't need an amplifier or other receiver features (things like this will take TOSlink or coax inputs and provide 3 RCA line-level outputs); this one also has a USB power port and AUX in so you can run your phone/tablet/mp3 player through the speakers easily.
 

 

[Couperin47]

Yeah
 

If the question is about whether you can skip a surround receiver:  Essentially, the DVD or broadcast program has a surround-encoded audio stream; that needs to be decoded into the 6 (or 8 for 7.1, or whatever) separate audio line-level streams.  Or to stereo.  Stereo decoding is easy and license-free, and most TVs do have line-level stereo outs (the red and white RCA plugs).
 
Most TVs do not have a 5.1 or 7.1 surround decoder built in, so they can't have line-level surround output.  They do an optical pass-through of the still encoded surround signal through a SPDIF cable (TOSlink or coax) or send it over HDMI or similar.  Some PVRs and computer setups have onboard surround decoding with line-level outputs (my computer takes HDMI input from the TV and does the surround decoding itself in the PVR software).  Some DVD/Bluray players also have built-in decoders with line-level outputs; if they have recording capabilities, you can sometimes feed the TV through that input to get surround decoding (that's fairly rare).  
 
There are also external surround DACs that are much smaller than a receiver that you can plug in a TOS or other input and get line-level RCA outputs from if you don't need an amplifier or other receiver features (things like this will take TOSlink or coax inputs and provide 3 RCA line-level outputs); this one also has a USB power port and AUX in so you can run your phone/tablet/mp3 player through the speakers easily.
 

 
I saw that one too, the problem is it's not at all clear if most of these devices at these prices are actually using legit Dolby or DTS chips. They carefully do not display the licensed logos anywhere, are all made in China by companies none of us have ever heard of, and more than a few reviews say whatever they are outputting, it isn't true decoding. These companies also seem to come and go rather quickly, fully half of the boxes listed on Amazon are discontinued and the quantities available are tiny.  All the higher end decoder boxes seem to have disappeared also from the marketplace, as have all the higher end audio sound or mixer cards for PCs.
 
As an example, this beauty is selling from a ton of Chinese/HK dealers on eBay for anywhere from $40 to $110. It does have the logos so I'm quite sure they are legit...riiight. I believe real Dolby/DTS chips run over $15 so the odds this contains them are rather low. My guess is these boxes output something like Dolby Pro Logic ersatz 5.1.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-Dolby-DTS-AC-3-Optical-SPDIF-to-Analog-Audio-Gear-Sound-Decoder-5-1-/271844890982?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4b37d966
 
At the absurd end, first generation Legit Dolby Digital receivers are dumped on eBay for pennies:
 
These all typically are first generation true Dolby Digital, have 1 or 2 optical inputs, no HDMI of any sort, but 5 full amplifiers. I know it's a huge hulking beast, and you'll be cursed with excellent amps. I see tons of this stuff going for even less every day...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-RX-V461-5-1-Channel-500-Watt-Receiver-/191562374436?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c9a01dd24&nma=true&si=z1U99o%252BXxTfY7O7o2f%252Fu%252Fj4GEls%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

[SumnerH]

I saw that one too, the problem is it's not at all clear if most of these devices at these prices are actually using legit Dolby or DTS chips. They carefully do not display the licensed logos anywhere, are all made in China by companies none of us have ever heard of, and more than a few reviews say whatever they are outputting, it isn't true decoding.

That one in particular does true DTS/DD decoding, but the interface sucks--there's a 2.0/5.1 output toggle button, but it's not marked so you don't know which mode you're in. You can fairly easily test it with a known 5.1 track, make sure that you're getting all the channels through the right speakers, and then put it in the correct state and tape a cover over the button so it never gets pushed again, but it's a slight PITA. And there's no option for 5.0/4.1/4.0 or other outputs, and no fine-grained bass management control (things that higher-end surround decoders will give you). Like most surround decoders, DD tends to be pretty boomy on the low-end--DTS sounds just fine, and is pretty standard these days anyway.

OTOH it's a much lower power draw than a typical receiver, and has a much smaller form factor.

 

[Couperin47]

and just to make matters worse, was speaking to a friend who's a dealer this afternoon: a new wrinkle.. last 18 months many low end TVs now have TOSlink outputs that ONLY stream 2 channels, even if the TV is getting full 5.1 Dolby via an HDMI input, it only passes 2 channel via the optical out, so you have no way to obtain a 5.1 stream from the TV.
 
sigh

 

[Van Everyman]

My introduction to surround was somewhat serendipitous. I bought a home last year that had a projector screen tv installed in the living room with in-ceiling speakers behind where the sofa sits. It also has four built-in (L+R and surround) in the master bedroom (the previous owners definitely loved television).

So naturally I had to fill out the systems, but on a bit of a budget seeing as I just bought a home. My approach has been to incrementally get the living room setup up to speed using decent but mid-priced stuff with the idea that I can move it to the master bedroom if I want to upgrade. First I bought an Onkyo TX-NR525 receiver because it had a fair amount of functionality for a competitive price (and was reviewed well in CNET as I recall). I've made do with somewhat crappy front speakers and bought a Definitive Technology center channel for about $220. No sub as of yet. Have my eye on some Bowers and Wilkins 685 S2s for the stereo pair – these will stay in the living room so I'm willing to stretch there if need be but I also don't want to show up the surrounds too badly.

Last few days as a bunch of surround titles have arrived in the mail I've been trying to optimize the living room – I can't direct the surrounds toward my ears (they are in-ceiling facing the floor) and my center has to sit on the floor but I've tried to angle the L+R and center toward my listening position.

Mostly I'm stoked using this for music mixed in surround – who knew this was such a thing? I bought Remain In Light by Talking Heads (the polyrhythms kill), the three Flaming Lips 5.1 mixes (Soft Bulletin, Yoshimi, and Mystics which is much more suited to 5.1 than stereo IMO), as well as a David Crosby album and Todd Rundgren. Addictive shit!

 

[SumnerH]

Have my eye on some Bowers and Wilkins 685 S2s for the stereo pair

B&W make great speakers. Up there with Vandersteen, Magnapan, and Paradigm for stuff that's fantastic and not too pricey for the quality. The monoprice stuff is nearly as good and very cheap. Klipsch was great too, in the old days, though they've slipped a bit recently- some of their stuff is still on that level if you're careful, but they make some junk as well nowadays.

 

[Couperin47]

B&W make great speakers. Up there with Vandersteen, Magnapan, and Paradigm for stuff that's fantastic and not too pricey for the quality. The monoprice stuff is nearly as good and very cheap. Klipsch was great too, in the old days, though they've slipped a bit recently- some of their stuff is still on that level if you're careful, but they make some junk as well nowadays.

 
Klipsch tried to become a force: they bought out my beloved Mirage, which also brought them Energy, their other nameplate. They also bought out Jamo, the Danish speaker company. They also acquired Mondial which made the high end Aragon & Acurus components. As they started to fail they killed the electronics, then finally sold out to Vox (the renamed Audiovox...yeah the maker of crap car stereo).  Vox has killed Mirage, Energy, and what remains, under the Klispch name seems to be a mix of what were old Klipsch and Energy designs and newer cheap models that are unimpressive.
 
Monoprice just started shipping 2 floorstanding speaker models. There is some history here: a few years ago Monoprice started selling a 6 piece home theater package (5 speakers & a sub) that looked suspiciously like a perfect knockoff of a similar Energy package. It quickly became clear the knockoff was so perfect because some even shipped with literature that identified the speakers as Energy. Mirage sued Monoprice and these disappeared. So Monoprice has always been really good at finding those Chinese factories that already have experience at making real quality stuff and some of them are idle now that Vox has killed so many lines...

 

[SumnerH]

Monoprice just started shipping 2 floorstanding speaker models. There is some history here: a few years ago Monoprice started selling a 6 piece home theater package (5 speakers & a sub) that looked suspiciously like a perfect knockoff of a similar Energy package.

I haven't heard the Monoprice knockoff, but that Energy Take system is pretty awesome sounding for a mini-speaker system.

 

[Couperin47]

I haven't heard the Monoprice knockoff, but that Energy Take system is pretty awesome sounding for a mini-speaker system.

 
http://www.cnet.com/news/klipsch-monoprice-settle-patent-dispute-over-speakers/

 

[SumnerH]

http://www.cnet.com/news/klipsch-monoprice-settle-patent-dispute-over-speakers/

Yeah, I read about it at the time.

 

[LoweTek]

Um, AFAIK the only 5.1 you're going to get out of a TV optical connection is over the air (antenna) audio. I believe it is an HDMI spec violation to pass through the 5.1 signal originating from an HDMI connected source. Everything other than OTA must be down-mixed to 2.0.
 
That and Paradigm. Nothing better IMO.

 

[Van Everyman]

That Monoprice 5.1 system for $184 is almost hard to believe. I am seriously tempted.

 

[Couperin47]

That Monoprice 5.1 system for $184 is almost hard to believe. I am seriously tempted.

 
Understand the current system is not the clone of the Energy Take Classics.  Otoh there's a decent chance it's actually made by the same folks in China, just not slavishly utilizing all the Energy components. C/Net actually likes this even more than the withdrawn Monoprice clone:
 
http://www.cnet.com/products/monoprice-10565/
 
These are larger and plainer boxes, and that size has given them the opportunity to sound "bigger and better"...and they do. What I can say confidently is that there's nothing out there at even twice the price that is anywhere near as good. These sound like real serious speakers, not a sound bar.

 

[SumnerH]

Um, AFAIK the only 5.1 you're going to get out of a TV optical connection is over the air (antenna) audio. I believe it is an HDMI spec violation to pass through the 5.1 signal originating from an HDMI connected source. Everything other than OTA must be down-mixed to 2.0.
 

 
This isn't quite right. HDMI per se says nothing about TOSlink and other technologies, but HDCP allows content to indicate what restrictions it requests.  But there are only 2 things are really required for compliance: no high-quality digital output of HDCP-flagged video content, and no high-quality digital audio output of DVD-Audio content.  Manufacturers are required to make a good-faith effort to prevent piracy of HDCP-flagged content, but there are significant major players (e.g. Sony, Toshiba, and Vizio) who allow full optical surround output from external HDMI devices.  Some of them have vested financial interest in external surround setups (they manufacture sound bars or the like), so are unlikely to change that policy any time soon.
 
And you can easily discard HDCP anyway; lots of sub-$20 HDMI splitters drop the HDCP flags (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/ViewHD-Port-Powered-Splitter-1080P/dp/B004F9LVXC) which is perfectly legal if it's done for interoperability purposes and not for the purpose of infringing copyright.  Run things through that before they go into your TV and you'll drop HDCP restrictions on the surround output (but note that some TVs just don't do optical 5.1 output anyway, for cheapness/laziness reasons--the 3 brands I mentioned above have a decent record of supporting it but individual models may vary).
 
There's also nothing special about OTA in principal vs not-OTA sources; any source can indicate it wants HDCP protection.  OTA sources can request it (with cooperating TVs) and individual BluRay, DVDs, or cable/satellite programs (or whatever) can decide whether they want it or not.

 

[Couperin47]

 
This isn't quite right. HDMI per se says nothing about TOSlink and other technologies, but HDCP allows content to indicate what restrictions it requests.  But there are only 2 things are really required for compliance: no high-quality digital output of HDCP-flagged video content, and no high-quality digital audio output of DVD-Audio content.  Manufacturers are required to make a good-faith effort to prevent piracy of HDCP-flagged content, but there are significant major players (e.g. Sony, Toshiba, and Vizio) who allow full optical surround output from external HDMI devices.  Some of them have vested financial interest in external surround setups (they manufacture sound bars or the like), so are unlikely to change that policy any time soon.
 
And you can easily discard HDCP anyway; lots of sub-$20 HDMI splitters drop the HDCP flags (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/ViewHD-Port-Powered-Splitter-1080P/dp/B004F9LVXC) which is perfectly legal if it's done for interoperability purposes and not for the purpose of infringing copyright.  Run things through that before they go into your TV and you'll drop HDCP restrictions on the surround output (but note that some TVs just don't do optical 5.1 output anyway, for cheapness/laziness reasons--the 3 brands I mentioned above have a decent record of supporting it but individual models may vary).
 
There's also nothing special about OTA in principal vs not-OTA sources; any source can indicate it wants HDCP protection.  OTA sources can request it (with cooperating TVs) and individual BluRay, DVDs, or cable/satellite programs (or whatever) can decide whether they want it or not.

 
Yes, both my Panny Plasmas pass full 5.1 from their optical out, originally I fed them from my cable box to the TVs and the TVs to the optical in of the receivers I was using. These days I have a receiver with HDMI switching for the big plasma.

 

[Couperin47]

Monoprice sale thru 6/3
http://www.monoprice.com/pages/proaudiosale?cl=res&utm_source=150602_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=pro_audio_sale_banner&utm_campaign=150528_proaudiosale
 
The 8" powered studio monitors are  $163/pair and the 5" versions are $110/pair.
Their 10" powered sub is $143.
 
There are also a pair of 3" powered speakers, calling these monitors is more than a bit of a stretch, they are ideal computer speakers and at $50 (plus shipping)
are likely to be seriously better than most 'computer speakers'.
 
Note these prices do NOT include shipping.