The 16 Most Important People in the Patriots' Dynasty

[tims4wins]

Thought about posting in Celebrating What Is, but new topics!

Robert Mays at the Ringer posted this article today
https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/8/9/16116862/new-england-patriots-dynasty-most-important-figures

Their ranking:
16) Mo Lewis
15) Moss
14) Law
13) Bruschi
12) McCourty
11) Willie
10) DH
9) Edelman
8) Gronk
7) Kraft
6) Scar
5) Troy Brown
4) McDaniels
3) Vinatieri
2) Brady
1) BB

Personally, I think this list is too player heavy. Randy Moss never won a title with the Pats. McCourty is a very good player but I don't see how he is the 12th most important guy in this run.

In no particular order I think I would have
Kraft
BB
Scar
Josh
Patricia
Weis
RAC
Pioli
Caserio
Mangini (guess it depends on definition of importance, but Spygate)
Brady
Mo Lewis
Troy Brown
Vinatieri
Edelman (just vital to these last two titles)

Obviously my list is very heavy on front office / coaching and light on players. Curious how others would slice this.

Edit: Ernie Adams may deserve a spot on there. And as NortheasternPJ points out, Rehbein

 

[NortheasternPJ]

I don't think you can have a list without Dick Rehbein on it. Depending on who you believe he either pushed hard to get Brady or was the deciding factor in drafting him. You could also argue Bill Parcels or Woody Johnson deserve to be on there somewhere.

 

[kenneycb]

I think Moss deserves consideration since he was the guy that finally made people shut about what would happen if Brady had Peyton-like weapons.

Note that I love Randy Moss and cannot discuss him rationally, so my judgment may be clouded.

 

[moondog80]

I know Mo Lewis is more of a fun pick, but does anyone else recall reading that the coaching staff had already reached the conclusion that the switch to Brady was inevitable that season, maybe soon after the Jets game?

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Sorry for the stupid question, but I'm blanking on who RAC is?

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Romeo Crennel

 

[loshjott]

I know Mo Lewis is more of a fun pick, but does anyone else recall reading that the coaching staff had already reached the conclusion that the switch to Brady was inevitable that season, maybe soon after the Jets game?

It's one thing to say that after the fact and quite another to bench a healthy Bledsoe who had just signed the largest QB contract in history and who Kraft considered "like a son." (I looked and can't find a link to that actual quote). It would have made the Kosar contratemps in Cleveland look like a walk in the park. So, yes, I think Mo Lewis deserves to be on the list.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

If a safety is going to make the list it has to be Rodney, who IMO was way more crucial to the two titles he won than McCourty has been to his two, nothing against McCourty. Go back and watch Three Games to Glory 2 and 3. Rodney is everywhere, seemingly in on every big play in those two post-seasons, on teams that were much more reliant on dominating defense than McCourty's teams.

Interesting thing to think about, but I would include Rodney Harrison and Vince Wilfork on my list. I probably wouldn't include Scar and I'd have fewer coaches and probably no front office people. I find it really hard to know how good any of the individual coaches are on their own vs. in BB's system.

 

[Curt S Loew]

It's one thing to say that after the fact and quite another to bench a healthy Bledsoe who had just signed the largest QB contract in history and who Kraft considered "like a son." (I looked and can't find a link to that actual quote). It would have made the Kosar contratemps in Cleveland look like a walk in the park. So, yes, I think Mo Lewis deserves to be on the list.

That's because he said that about Brady.

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

That's because he said that about Brady.

He said it about Bledsoe as well.

 

[Buck Showalter]

Romeo Crennel

And Charlie Weis

 

[Super Nomario]

Kraft too low (should be top three). McCourty and Hightower should be behind Law and Bruschi, respectively. And Deion Branch (Super Bowl MVP!) should be on there somewhere. Welker, too.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Kraft too low (should be top three). McCourty and Hightower should be behind Law and Bruschi, respectively. And Deion Branch (Super Bowl MVP!) should be on there somewhere. Welker, too.

Totally agree. Kraft, BB, Brady are the top three. Everyone else comes after that.

 

[Buck Showalter]

1. Belichick
   
2. Brady
   
3. Kraft
   
4. Vinatieri
   
5. Crennel
   
6. Weis
   
7. Josh
   
8. Patricia
   
9. Bruschi
   
10. Law
    
11. Edelman
    
12. Gronk
    
13. Pioli
    
14. Hightower
    
15. McGinest
    
16. Pete Carrol (for being incompetent on both sidelines)

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

BB, Brady and Kraft top 3. I'd move Scar up. Higher than 6. And Vince should be on there. Only one other than Brady who bridges the gap from 1st 3 SBs to most recent wins. No Super Bowls, but some damn good years in between.

 

[tims4wins]

1. Belichick
   
2. Brady
   
3. Kraft
   
4. Vinatieri
   
5. Crennel
   
6. Weis
   
7. Josh
   
8. Patricia
   
9. Bruschi
   
10. Law
    
11. Edelman
    
12. Gronk
    
13. Pioli
    
14. Hightower
    
15. McGinest
    
16. Pete Carrol (for being incompetent on both sidelines)

I like this a lot but doesn't Troy Brown have to be on there?

 

[Curt S Loew]

He said it about Bledsoe as well.

I don't doubt it, just that the more recent quotes are about Brady. Thought he may be thinking of that.

 

[steveluck7]

Is there any possibility that Parcells deserves a spot? Brought BB to NE and thus exposed him to RKK. On top of that, his hiring and tenure changed the way the organization was viewed and performed. They weren't the woeful bottom-dwellers anymore.

 

[pappymojo]

Surprised Richard Seymour isn't listed. I don't know that the Patriots win their first three rings without him.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

I know Mo Lewis is more of a fun pick, but does anyone else recall reading that the coaching staff had already reached the conclusion that the switch to Brady was inevitable that season, maybe soon after the Jets game?

Didn't someone debunk this recently saying that the story was a myth? I tried Googling it, but didn't find it.

 

[moondog80]

Didn't someone debunk this recently saying that the story was a myth? I tried Googling it, but didn't find it.

Possibly. My memory is that I read it in either Patriot Regin or the Halberstam book, but that could be wrong.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Possibly. My memory is that I read it in either Patriot Regin or the Halberstam book, but that could be wrong.

It's been repeated for years. I'm not sure if it was Weis or someone else who debunked it in the last 1-2 years. I'll find it later when i get back on my computer.

 

[Time to Mo Vaughn]

Crazy to me that no one has mentioned Matt Light as the starting LT from 2001 - 2011. That's a long time of stability at a critically important position.

 

[LaszloKovacks]

1. BB
2. Brady
3. Kraft
4. Vinatieri
5. Pioli
6. Bruschi
7. McD
8. Weis
9. Edelman
10. Harrison
11. Seymour
12. RAC
13. Hightower
14. Law
15. Caserio
16. Gronk

 

[loshjott]

I don't doubt it, just that the more recent quotes are about Brady. Thought he may be thinking of that.

No, I was referring to Bledsoe. The point is I think there's no way a healthy Bledsoe is benched in 2001 in favor of a 6th round pick given the huge contract and the close relationship with the owner (that yes of course developed with Brady over time also). Belichick wasn't a genius yet and I just don't know if he could have pulled it off.

 

[Curt S Loew]

No, I was referring to Bledsoe. The point is I think there's no way a healthy Bledsoe is benched in 2001 in favor of a 6th round pick given the huge contract and the close relationship with the owner (that yes of course developed with Brady over time also). Belichick wasn't a genius yet and I just don't know if he could have pulled it off.

Oh, I know you were referring to Bledsoe. Just thought you may have been thinking of Kraft's comments about Brady.

 

[Reverend]

If a safety is going to make the list it has to be Rodney, who IMO was way more crucial to the two titles he won than McCourty has been to his two, nothing against McCourty. Go back and watch Three Games to Glory 2 and 3. Rodney is everywhere, seemingly in on every big play in those two post-seasons, on teams that were much more reliant on dominating defense than McCourty's teams.

Interesting thing to think about, but I would include Rodney Harrison and Vince Wilfork on my list. I probably wouldn't include Scar and I'd have fewer coaches and probably no front office people. I find it really hard to know how good any of the individual coaches are on their own vs. in BB's system.

I've always felt like Rodney was the perfect injection of physicality and swagger at just the right time as some of the other stallwarts were aging a bit in a way that allowed them to cement and maintain the team culture in that regard such that it persisted going forward. To the extent that we are made to believe that the team culture is critical to their success, it seems Rodney should be included as that mark is arguably still evident on the team today.

 

[Stitch01]

No, I was referring to Bledsoe. The point is I think there's no way a healthy Bledsoe is benched in 2001 in favor of a 6th round pick given the huge contract and the close relationship with the owner (that yes of course developed with Brady over time also). Belichick wasn't a genius yet and I just don't know if he could have pulled it off.

I think it could have happened in 2001, but probably with the team already going nowhere.

Also Vinatieri....HOF, all time great, and the Snow Bowl kick (and arguably the Tenn Divisional game kick) were both all timers

That said...waaaaaaay too high on these lists for a kicker that was was here for 1/3 of the dynasty

 

[sheamonu]

I know Mo Lewis is more of a fun pick, but does anyone else recall reading that the coaching staff had already reached the conclusion that the switch to Brady was inevitable that season, maybe soon after the Jets game?

Definitely reported as fact in Charlie Pierce's book "Moving the Chains". The "after the Jets game" part was unlikely but in a book that was very well sourced he left no doubt that this was a move that was on the cards and that Damon Huard, by acting as go between when Bledsoe returned, was instrumental in keeping the peace within the team.

 

[m0ckduck]

Maybe it's more edifying to have a NE-players-only ranking. I get that it was cute in the context of an article to be able to put Mo Lewis, McDaniels and others in there... but it's really hard to debate, say, Kraft vs. Scar vs. Troy Brown (whom the Mays article put in consecutive order) in terms of who contributed more to the current Pats era.

Also... some of these rankings have a reverse recency-bias, no? I like the props for the older players... but I suspect that if we do this list in ten years, Edelman and Gronk will be significantly higher towards to the top based on current accomplishments alone than they are currently.

 

[Ale Xander]

James Orthwein for only offering Kraft $75 million to buy out the lease, the denial of which causing the team to stay and making the Kraft purchase inevitable.

Ernie Adams certainly belongs.

The ticketing rep that sold Kraft his first season tickets.

 

[Ale Xander]

1. BB
2. Kraft
3. Brady







4. Pioli
5. Weis
6. Scar
7. Troy Brown
8. Vinatieri
9. Ernie Adams
10. RC
11. Ty Law
12. Big Willie Style
13. Bruschi
14. Gronk
15a.Edelman
15b. Vrabel
15c. James Orthwein

 

[OurF'ingCity]

Maybe this is just my ignorance but #4 for Pioli seems super high given that the front office has still been great after his departure, which suggests his role maybe wasn't as important as we thought when he was the de facto GM or at least co-GM with Belichick.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Maybe this is just my ignorance but #4 for Pioli seems super high given that the front office has still been great after his departure, which suggests his role maybe wasn't as important as we thought when he was the de facto GM or at least co-GM with Belichick.

Completely agree. Also a bunch of the key players on the first three championship teams pre dated both BB and Pioli.

And Orthwein is an asinine pick. If you are going to go that route you have to include Billy Sullivan and Michael Jackson.

 

[InstaFace]

Also Vinatieri....HOF, all time great, and the Snow Bowl kick (and arguably the Tenn Divisional game kick) were both all timers

That said...waaaaaaay too high on these lists for a kicker that was was here for 1/3 of the dynasty

Do you think we win both those super bowls without him? Do you think we attract the level of talent we did (Dillon, Harrison, etc) if we don't win them?

 

[tims4wins]

Yeah I would argue that Vinatieri's greatness has been overblown, but the importance he had to the dynasty is kind of hard to quantify. 2001 doesn't happen without him, possibly not 2003, then who knows what becomes of the dynasty?

 

[Stitch01]

Do you think we win both those super bowls without him? Do you think we attract the level of talent we did (Dillon, Harrison, etc) if we don't win them?

Depends on who the kicker was, but 2001 probably not, 2003 yes (Vinatieri had a bad year in 2003), yes I think both Harrison and Dillon end up here anyways. I think even if they went 8-8 in 2001 (and they could have gone 8-8, that team caught every break under the sun) the Pats end up where they are today, just with one fewer ring.

Again, Im not putting him down. He should be going to the HOF. He's a New England legend. The Snow Bowl is never going to stop being awesome. But he's showing up as like the third or fourth most important person to the Pats run on these lists. He's a kicker who was here for 5 of 17 seasons. He's a bigger key to the Pats run than someone like Seymour playing all pro DT for the same time period he was here? Or Bob Kraft? Or even the tenured OL like Light/Koppen/Mankins/Solder?

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

I was kind of surprised to not see Mankins on there. I'd have thought Pioli would be there as well. As to the coaching/front office nominations, Weis and Crennell were barely here for much of it, though their time was beneficial. Caserio is a glorified scout and cap manager, as far as we know anyway. Mcdaniels deserves a lot of credit IMO, but Patricia has no business on such a list. He's a great coordinator, but his tenure has not exactly been marked by defensive dominance and I question how much more input BB has on defensive schemes than offensive.

 

[TheoShmeo]

I was kind of surprised to not see Mankins on there. I'd have thought Pioli would be there as well. As to the coaching/front office nominations, Weis and Crennell were barely here for much of it, though their time was beneficial. Caserio is a glorified scout and cap manager, as far as we know anyway. Mcdaniels deserves a lot of credit IMO, but Patricia has no business on such a list. He's a great coordinator, but his tenure has not exactly been marked by defensive dominance and I question how much more input BB has on defensive schemes than offensive.

I would be very surprised to see Mankins on the list. Make no mistake, he was a great Patriot but he was not a member of a SB champion and he did not have his best game against the Giants in the Game That Shall Not Be Mentioned. Sixteen just isn't a lot of spots and I think he's a relatively easy omission.

Separately, I don't exactly know how to view Caserio and Pioli in that I don't know where BB begins and they end. My gut, however, is that Bill's plate is very full and that both guys were/are very important to the team's success.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Again, Im not putting him down. He should be going to the HOF. He's a New England legend. The Snow Bowl is never going to stop being awesome. But he's showing up as like the third or fourth most important person to the Pats run on these lists. He's a kicker who was here for 5 of 17 seasons. He's a bigger key to the Pats run than someone like Seymour playing all pro DT for the same time period he was here? Or Bob Kraft? Or even the tenured OL like Light/Koppen/Mankins/Solder?

I'm with you here. I don't think he's in the top 15, let alone the top 5.

Kraft is #1, because without him, BB never has the autonomy that has allowed him to do what he has done.
2. BB
3. Brady.
4. Ernie Adams
5. Scar.


Past that, I'm not sure - some list of Light, Seymour, Wilfork, Mayo, McCourty, Law, Gronk, Edelman, Welker, Rodney, Bruschi, Troy Brown, maybe Nink.

 

[InstaFace]

Ernie Adams? #4?

The guy is a great utility player for BB's coaching creativity. Photographic memory. An auxiliary brain. But let's not go crazy here.

 

[Kliq]

To supplement this Simmons has a podcast up of him and some friend/comedic writer whose name escapes me and they go over the Top 25 wins of the BB/Brady era. 100 minutes just going over awesome games, forgotten plays and heroes and overall bad ass play from Brady and brilliant decision making by Bill. A highly enjoyable podcast everyone should try and listen to.

 

[Bowhemian]

Ernie Adams? #4?

The guy is a great utility player for BB's coaching creativity. Photographic memory. An auxiliary brain. But let's not go crazy here.

But.....Pink Stripes!!

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Is there any possibility that Parcells deserves a spot? Brought BB to NE and thus exposed him to RKK. On top of that, his hiring and tenure changed the way the organization was viewed and performed. They weren't the woeful bottom-dwellers anymore.

It's a shame that Parcells appears on comment #18.

His hire brought back a fundamental change in how this franchise was viewed. It also led to the hire of BB. He's in my top 10, if not top 5.

 

[tims4wins]

Ernie Adams? #4?

The guy is a great utility player for BB's coaching creativity. Photographic memory. An auxiliary brain. But let's not go crazy here.

Ernie Adams is a really hard one. There has been so much talk over the years of the Patriots knowing their opponents' plays... the Pats are so well prepared, so well organized, have such good game plans on all sides of the ball... we can't know for sure, but there is a chance that he is the most important guy behind BB / TB / Kraft. On the flip side, there is a chance that he isn't nearly as important as any of the top 50 players of the era. We just don't know enough.

 

[Van Everyman]

Malcolm ... no?

Not only a huge part of two titles but made probably the biggest play in the history of the game upon which one of those titles rested.

 

[BillWarDamnEagleJay]

...Also... some of these rankings have a reverse recency-bias, no? I like the props for the older players... but I suspect that if we do this list in ten years, Edelman and Gronk will be significantly higher towards to the top based on current accomplishments alone than they are currently.

In ten years Jonathan Kraft will be on the list (kind of surprised that the Kraft entry isn't "Krafts"). And one can only hope that Garoppolo or Brissett is on here as well

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

1. Brady
2. BB
3. Kraft
4. Matt Light
5. Troy Brown
6. Edelman
7. Rodney
8. Law
9. Wilfork
10. Hightower
11. Bruschi
12. Seymour
13. Faulk
14. Volmer
15. Butler
16. Varitek splits the uprights

I have Brady over BB because I don't think BB does a run anything like this without Brady. And then BB over Kraft because any other coach doesn't do this regardless of the support from the top.

No other coaches, coordinators, or front office because people have come and gone (with the exception of Ernie?) and BB just plugs in new ones. I guess you could say the same about slot receivers and left tackles, but it seems different.

 

[InstaFace]

To supplement this Simmons has a podcast up of him and some friend/comedic writer whose name escapes me and they go over the Top 25 wins of the BB/Brady era. 100 minutes just going over awesome games, forgotten plays and heroes and overall bad ass play from Brady and brilliant decision making by Bill. A highly enjoyable podcast everyone should try and listen to.

here's the link. I generally take a dim view of Simmons these days, but any Patriots fan listening to this will be laughing out loud about once every minute or two. It's pretty well done, by the standards of "two guys talking about sports for two hours".

 

[TheoShmeo]

Malcolm ... no?

Not only a huge part of two titles but made probably the biggest play in the history of the game upon which one of those titles rested.

Agreed. In addition to making perhaps the greatest single play in Pats history (Adam's Snow Bowl game tying kick raises its hand too), he was great down the stretch in SB 49 and his coverage on the 3rd and 33 in SB 51 made Ryan's window to Gabriel impossibly small. If Ryan had completed that pass, the Falcons likely make it a two score game and also likely win the game. Yep, Butler has only played in three seasons but he was a vital contributor to two SB wins.