The Alex Cora Difference

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Cora/Red Sox don't seem to be doing things much differently or better than the rest of the league. If anything, they may have taken slightly more often. Average 3-0 AB (balls in play) is 8.5; Sox have 7. Average number of walks is 82.7; Sox have 109.

League averages on 3-0 are .367/.939/.867
Sox are .286/.957/.714
All I can say is: Yes.

And in the process, Cora removed a whole "thing" for players and coaches to even worry about--something that apparently did almost nothing, and yet has churned up all this discussion.

That is the point, yes.
 

joe dokes

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What I'm saying is, disirregardless of the signal or lack of signal or nonexistence of one, statistically speaking, they're all still taking, basically.

I'm learning to like Cora more and more.
I think you meant "undisirregardless."
 

joe dokes

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Back to the thread title. From the NYT:

Stanton, who has played in 82 straight games and has not had a day off since May 29, has been stuck on 299 career home runs since Aug. 18 and has just six hits in his last 37 at-bats. He agreed that his body, which has been hobbled by a hamstring strain, might benefit from a day off.

“But we’re beat up right now and I’ve got to be a staple in there and help try to push us through this hard time,” Stanton said. “We’re all tired, we’re all beat up, but everyone else is playing the same game. We need a push. Not always from me every night, but if I’m out there I feel I have a chance to help us.”
 
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teddywingman

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Last night in the 11 run inning, Cora pushed all the right buttons. Yes, it's easy to say now, but those decisions seemed right in real time. Swihart pinch hitting for Sandy? Yes. Brock Holt for Pearce? Yes. Beni bunting to put a runner on third with one out? That one I wasn't sure about, but I could see the reasoning. A sac-fly would put them up 3.

Anyway. It obviously looks like great management after the result.
 

ookami7m

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Last night in the 11 run inning, Cora pushed all the right buttons. Yes, it's easy to say now, but those decisions seemed right in real time. Swihart pinch hitting for Sandy? Yes. Brock Holt for Pearce? Yes. Beni bunting to put a runner on third with one out? That one I wasn't sure about, but I could see the reasoning. A sac-fly would put them up 3.

Anyway. It obviously looks like great management after the result.
The radio team at least (was driving home from work) seemed to think that Beni bunted on his own there.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The radio team at least (was driving home from work) seemed to think that Beni bunted on his own there.
I think they're right. Bunting with no outs and a runner already in scoring position, after five straight base hits (and four runs giving the team a two run lead), makes no sense strategically. It hands the defense an out unnecessarily. Benintendi has been in a bit of a slump, there's a tough lefty on the mound, I could see him trying to do something on his own there because he didn't like his chances swinging away.
 

joe dokes

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I think they're right. Bunting with no outs and a runner already in scoring position, after five straight base hits (and four runs giving the team a two run lead), makes no sense strategically. It hands the defense an out unnecessarily. Benintendi has been in a bit of a slump, there's a tough lefty on the mound, I could see him trying to do something on his own there because he didn't like his chances swinging away.
The way he moved in the box, I thought he was trying for a hit by pushing it up the 3rd base line, knowing that "failure" would at least move the runner.
 

teddywingman

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The radio team at least (was driving home from work) seemed to think that Beni bunted on his own there.
That was just confirmed by Cora in his pregame interview on the radio (he wasn't asked about). It just came up in discussing the 7th last night, he said something like, "Yeah the guys have been giving Benny a little bit of a hard time since he made all three outs in the inning. But one was a productive out, Benny, knowing where his swing was, laid down the bunt..."
 
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Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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That was just confirmed by Cora in his pregame interview on the radio (he wasn't asked about). It just came up in discussing the 7th last night, he said something like, "Yeah the guys have been giving Benny a little bit of a hard time since he made all three outs in the inning. But one was a productive out, Benny, knowing where his swing was, laid down the bunt..."
Very subtle way of Cora making sure everyone knows that he didn't call the bunt.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Looking at the "Scoring" page for the Sox in BBref, I noticed an interesting nugget: The Sox' best run prevention innings this year have been the 5th, 6th and 9th (2.44, 3.28, and 3.18 RA/9 respectively).

This interests me because the 5th and 6th are innings where you would expect runs allowed to spike. It's where tired starters and the weakest part of your bullpen converge. And aside from the 1st inning (when the best hitters in the lineup are always up), those are indeed the two innings with the highest OPS MLB-wide. Hitters in general tend to feast on 5th- and 6th-inning pitching. But when they're facing the Sox, the feast turns to famine.

Maybe this is explainable by the fact that we have a veteran starting rotation and (believe it or not) a pretty deep bullpen. But I have to think it speaks well of Cora's bullpen management. Somehow he seems to have an effective pitcher on the mound for that part of the game more often than his peers.
 

tbrown_01923

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Cora has been pretty quick with Johnson and Velazquez pulling them before the 5th where they might be showing signs of fatigue OR before the fatigue becomes a problem. Shouldn't our top three should be expected to be better than average through 5?
 

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Cora has been pretty quick with Johnson and Velazquez pulling them before the 5th where they might be showing signs of fatigue OR before the fatigue becomes a problem. Shouldn't our top three should be expected to be better than average through 5?
Average gets hammered. So yes, but is that good enough?
 

patoaflac

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Cora has been pretty quick with Johnson and Velazquez pulling them before the 5th where they might be showing signs of fatigue OR before the fatigue becomes a problem. Shouldn't our top three should be expected to be better than average through 5?
The problem today was bringing Pom.
 

tbrown_01923

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I don't know. I was just posing a theory for Savins observation that the sox's 5/6 innings are some of their better innings.
 

joe dokes

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Cora is giving Pom multiple chances to prove he still has value. He will not make that mistake in October.
That is (or was) the big picture. I think the micro-picture was that he looked serviceable in his last few relief appearances, including an increased velocity that most seemed to think was the minimum requirement for usefulness in relief. And in the 5th yesterday, given the bullpen usage the previous 2 days, it was either him or Cuevas.
I'm sure we'll see him again before the season is out, but I don't see how he even sniffs a post-season roster.
 

Byrdbrain

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Yeah as I pointed out in the gamethread yesterday and eventually regretted, Pom hadn't sucked for a couple weeks before yesterday's game. At that point in the game, certainly in a game that the Sox weren't going all out to win, going with him was the right thing to do.

Cuevas was the other option and based on what we've seen of him he clearly isn't any kind of answer.
 

Jim Ed Rice in HOF

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I have no data, but those seem like good innings for the offense as well. 2nd/3rd time through the order they seem to hit their stride.
Sox scoring runs by inning:
5 - 114
7 - 97
6 - 89
1 - 82
3 - 80
4 - 76
2 - 75
8 - 72
9 - 60
extra - 21

To round out Savin's numbers here are the Sox pitching runs by inning:
1 - 77
4 - 68
3 - 67
8 - 65
2 - 62
7 - 59
6 - 51
5 - 43
9 - 41
extra - 10
 
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SirPsychoSquints

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I have no data, but those seem like good innings for the offense as well. 2nd/3rd time through the order they seem to hit their stride.
The Sox's best innings by runs scored per inning - the spread from their 3rd best to their worst is only .12 runs:
  1. 5th (.81)
  2. 7 (.69)
  3. 6 (.63)
  4. 9
  5. 1
  6. 3
  7. 4
  8. 2
  9. 8 (.51)
The Sox's best innings, as a % above the AL's runs scored per inning:
  1. 5th (57% better)
  2. 7 (42%)
  3. 9 (35%)
  4. 3 (21%)
  5. 6 (20%)
  6. 2 (15%)
  7. 1 (6%)
  8. 4 (negative 1%)
  9. 8 (negative 5%)
The league-wide splits are (obviously) tighter than the Sox team splits, with 1/4/6/8 in a virtual tie around .54 runs/innings, and 2/3/7/9 around .47, with the 5th in the middle at .51. This makes sense, as the top of the order is more likely in those high scoring innings than in those low scoring innings - plus the 9th has closers.

Edit: The reason our inning distribution is different is likely simply because we turn our lineup over faster - our top of the lineup more likely in the 3rd and 5th and less likely in the 4th, for example.
 

Clears Cleaver

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Pretty incredible that the Sox WORST inning for run differential is the first when they likely have Betts, Benny and jdm batting. Maybe speaks more to the pitchers first inning struggles.

Also outscoring opponents by 19 runs in the ninth despite having opponents hit in the ninth nearly 30 times more is crazy

Pythag still has the Astros as a better team and Astros are -8 on luck whereas Sox are +5. I still think the Astros staff is still better suited for seven game series but these are two elite teams if they are fortunate enough to meet in the ALCS.
 

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OK, so there was a lot of confusion yesterday and speculation about Cora's choices about who played and who say and if he was even trying to win the game. I would like to offer an explanation that has not yet been considered.

Cora was honoring the 100 year anniversary of the Charles Montgomery Burns Stratagem.

Some of you may know it by another name:


That's right, on this day, in 1918--a year of some note to some of you--marks, while not the earliest incidence of this early application of sabermetrics, the September 6 World Series game against Chicago certainly offers one of the earlier, most significant, and certainly most intensive applications of this cunning approach.

1918-sep 6 54-55 01.jpg

1918-sep 6 56-57 01.jpg

1918-sep 6 58-59 01.jpg

Of course, there is no game today on this, the official anniversary. Cora, obviously aware of this despite the fact that he--brilliantly, in my opinion--approaches every interview as though he just showed up today for the first time, isn't sure what's up, is still looking for his locker, but sure, they gonna play hard, &tc. prepared us for the marking of this important day--one so hallowed that the Red Sox themselves are abstaining from the game they so love--by benching three players.

See, Cora knows.

 

In my lifetime

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Cora has been very disciplined in making sure players including pitchers get rest throughout the season. It is a very long season and this decision hopefully will pay off during the playoffs. It also got me thinking that a 6 man regular season rotation is on the horizon. Why not just build in the rest on a regular schedule? In addition, many teams have little chance to compete for a playoff spot, so why not protect your players a little more and potentially extend their careers. Other teams are hoping to extend their seasons in the playoffs and a 6 man rotation saves wear and tear over this long haul.

So I would expect that teams do one of two things: continue moving pitching counts significantly lower or start to move to 6 man rotations. This also has the potential of necessitating the need of a larger roster and maybe will give the owners something to help move the next CBA forward - an extra roster spot. That should be something the PA would want very badly and would take out the sting of the tax threshold, which is getting harder.
 

Reverend

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Cora has been very disciplined in making sure players including pitchers get rest throughout the season. It is a very long season and this decision hopefully will pay off during the playoffs. It also got me thinking that a 6 man regular season rotation is on the horizon. Why not just build in the rest on a regular schedule? In addition, many teams have little chance to compete for a playoff spot, so why not protect your players a little more and potentially extend their careers. Other teams are hoping to extend their seasons in the playoffs and a 6 man rotation saves wear and tear over this long haul.

So I would expect that teams do one of two things: continue moving pitching counts significantly lower or start to move to 6 man rotations. This also has the potential of necessitating the need of a larger roster and maybe will give the owners something to help move the next CBA forward - an extra roster spot. That should be something the PA would want very badly and would take out the sting of the tax threshold, which is getting harder.
I wonder if another possible innovation might stem from rethinking the value of the "21 out pitcher" versus having more guys you only put through the order twice but pitch more often? This could also lead to greater investigation into different kinds of versatility with respect to pitchers.

Like, maybe you find out Sale can go ever three games if he's only going twice through the order. Does that have more value than trying to go the distance every five? If so, it might make sense to rework the order around Sale's schedule rather than insist on pitching in order. Like, even on a five man, it might go:
1,2,3,1,4,5,1,2,3,1,4,5,1

And then so forth as you figure out what other pitchers can do. Like, maybe you have two of these guys?
1,2,3,1,2,4,1,2,5,1,2,3

Of course, then you see how far apart between starts your 3-5 are, and maybe you start thinking about hybrid starters-relievers?

Now, these numbers are all made up, but I wonder if a lot of value isn't being left on the proverbial table or out on the field or wherever people leave their value these days simply by mindlessly adhering to a notion of order that doesn't necessarily perform any important baseball function.

Well... there's keeping players happy, of course. But beyond that.
 

TheoShmeo

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Warning: anyone who worries about karma issues etc., look away.

With the magic number at 9, I’m assuming the Sox will clinch the AL East in the next week to 10 days. Doing so at the Toilet would be more than sweet.

But even if it takes two weeks, there will still be a lot of season left before the ALDS. How Cora handles both giving guys playing time and time off, and avoiding the team getting rusty (think of the Rockies in 2007 with the long break between the NLCS and the WS, for example), will be fascinating. Knowing Cora, he’ll have a plan and it will be well thought out.

I get it, this is a high class problem. Still, it’s one that I’m looking forward to seeing him navigate.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I'm not sure Cora does much different after they clinch than he's been doing all season. I mean, even as they've been grinding a bit in the last few weeks, it's not like he's been riding the key guys into the ground. Just since 9/1, a span of nine games with two scheduled off-days, every position player has been given at least one day off. Granted, a couple of them got into games late when they didn't start (like the final day in Atlanta), but on the whole, no one should really be running on fumes. I expect the day after they clinch to be a AAAA type lineup...Tito and Farrell both liked to do that...but other than that, I doubt much will change in terms of playing time for the regulars. Cora's been balancing rest with keeping guys sharp all year...clearly it's effective.

As far as the pitching goes, I could see skipping Price and Porcello once since they're the only ones who've been grinding every five day since the All Star break (save for Price getting hit by that line drive). Sale needs to be built up and ERod had six weeks off so he should be good to go. The high-use relievers (Kimbrel, Kelly, Hembree, Barnes) are easy enough to stay away from to give them a break.

What I'm hoping to see is they ease up a bit between the two Yankee series (@Cleveland and home against Baltimore) and get whatever rest they want to get then, then go pretty much full bore on the final weekend. Play those games like they count for something even if they don't, because there's four days off after that.
 
Jun 9, 2011
56
I'll preface this by saying that I absolutely love Cora and his overall approach to this job, how could you not? His demeanor and approach with the media is fantastic and his players clearly love playing for him. There is no one else I would rather have at the helm.

That said, there was one thing that popped up over the weekend that sort of rubbed me the wrong way. There is no way to quantify the impact, but it is a little 'annoying' (for lack of a better word) that he is still incredibly close to the players on the team that is undoubtedly the biggest obstacle in the way to winning a championship this season. The Astros could not be more comfortable playing in Fenway. From the come back on Friday, to the pretty convincing victory on Saturday and the 5-1 comeback Sunday, it was very clear who was playing on their heels and who was attacking. That's not usually what you expect when a team comes to Fenway.

I understand that they won a championship together and there will always be that bond, especially given that Cora is a awesome guy and most of the players on the Astros seem like normal, down to earth guys. No problem with that whatsoever. I just don't think he needs to be so outwardly buddy-buddy during the season. I think the division lead has given him some leeway, but imagine if we had a 2 game lead at the time and he was dapping up Bregman on Sunday while wearing an LSU jersey during BP after the Astros had their way with us in games 1 and 2. I don't think that would really fly with anyone. Most likely an overreaction, I just don't think it HELPS the Red Sox that the Astros look into our dugout and see their best buddy. Just my opinion, but that should probably be dialed back a bit during the season.
 

InstaFace

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Our manager, he's too popular with players, everyone seems to like him! Now I really hate him. I only want guys leading my team who have no charisma or loyalty, and leave burned bridges behind them wherever they go.

---

Look, you want someone whose camraderie and empathy for the other guys hurt the team, look no further than Grady Little on June 27th and, consequently, 28th, 2003. That was the day he lost what little remaining support or optimism he had on SoSH (already microscopic after the previous year's misrule).

On the 27th was one of the halcyon days of the early-2000s big-basher lineup. We were up 10-1, against the eventual World Champion Marlins, before we'd made an out; Damon scored 3 times that first inning, after which the score was 14-1. We scored in 7 of our 8 at-bats that day, winning 25-8. It was a cacophonous, joyous romp, the kind of day that turns first-time Fenway visitors into lifelong fans.

After the game, Grady Little felt bad. He was personal friends with Marlins manager Jack McKeon, and... well, I'll just quote the article.
So it was no surprise Saturday afternoon when Little, the Boston Red Sox manager, sought out his Marlins counterpart to apologize for his team's behavior in Friday's 25-8 laugher at Fenway Park.

The two managers chatted on the field for about five minutes near the end of Red Sox batting practice. Little made it clear he disapproved as much as McKeon did of the piling-on Boston did in the late innings.

"Jack knows me and I know him," said Little, who addressed the issue with several members of his team as well. "You see some stuff on the field sometimes that you can't believe. That certainly was the case [Friday] night."

McKeon was critical of the way several Red Sox tried to score from third on short fly balls with the game clearly in hand. Todd Walker, for instance, was thrown out at home with a 21-5 lead in the seventh.

"A lot of times we do a whole lot of assuming," Little said. "I didn't want that to happen here. We make mistakes when we lose a close game and sometimes we make mistakes in a game like that."

Red Sox owner John Henry wasn't so sure. Told of Little's apology, the former Marlins owner shook his head in amazement.

"Grady apologized?" he said. "I disagree with that. That's old school. What about the fan who pays $50 and gives up his Friday night to come out here? Don't we owe it to our fans to play hard all the time?"

Henry mused that perhaps next time the Red Sox should put a disclaimer on the scoreboard: "We're not trying anymore."
The game the next day, which will live in managerial infamy, saw another offensive eruption, 7 in the 6th, that put us up 9-2. Grady goes and make some defensive replacements, because we'd clearly gotten enough runs, no need to get more or embarrass anyone, right? So, a clearly-tired Tim Wakefield had gutted through 7 innings, the last 5 of them scoreless, but was sent out there again in the top of the 8th. As Grady, we may presume, watched with approval, Wakefield proceeded to give up 3 straight singles, followed by a 3-run HR that brought it to 9-6. Finally, there was Exit Wakefield, Enter Timlin - groundout, strikeout, inning over.

Next inning, same score, save situation, right? Well, in comes arguably our worst reliever, who had been given game-finishing responsibilities that year and done shakily at best - and also had logged 5 two-inning appearances within the previous month. Nobody wanted Brandon Lyon out there, except the guy whose vote counted. With 2 on and 2 out, up comes Ivan Rodriguez, who knocks in a run, followed by Mike "Annus Mirabilis" Lowell, cleanup hitter and MVP vote-getter, who promptly puts it over the fence for a 10-9 lead. That held up through the bottom of the 9th, and we lose.

In the aftermath, it was clear Grady had taken his foot off the gas, so as not to put up an embarrassing scoreline two days in a row. The effect was to pull defeat from the jaws of victory - which, given a 7-run lead in the 8th inning, took some doing. "Make Grady Apologize" became a battle cry around SoSH for years. And not least, it clearly cost him some of the owner's good faith, too.

You want to tell me Cora's done anything that would compromise his team's chances of winning, you're gonna need to come up with more than just "the other team looks in the dugout and sees a friend". I mean, wouldn't they want to not make a friend sad? Wouldn't he know their tendencies particularly well, while they're less likely to know his? Just seems like an absurdly small nit to pick, even by SoSH standards.
 
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Jun 9, 2011
56
Our manager, he's too popular with players, everyone seems to like him! Now I really hate him. I only want guys leading my team who have no charisma or loyalty, and leave burned bridges behind them wherever they go.

---

Look, you want someone whose camraderie and empathy for the other guys hurt the team, look no further than Grady Little on June 27th and, consequently, 28th, 2003. That was the day he lost what little remaining support or optimism he had on SoSH (already microscopic after the previous year's misrule).

On the 27th was one of the halcyon days of the early-2000s big-basher lineup. We were up 10-1, against the eventual World Champion Marlins, before we'd made an out; Damon scored 3 times that first inning, after which the score was 14-1. We scored in 7 of our 8 at-bats that day, winning 25-8. It was a cacophonous, joyous romp, the kind of day that turns first-time Fenway visitors into lifelong fans.

After the game, Grady Little felt bad. He was personal friends with Marlins manager Jack McKeon, and... well, I'll just quote the article.


The game the next day, which will live in managerial infamy, saw another offensive eruption, 7 in the 6th, that put us up 9-2. A clearly-tired Tim Wakefield had gutted through 7 innings, the last 5 of them scoreless, but was sent out there again in the top of the 8th. As Grady, we may presume, watched with approval, Wakefield proceeded to give up 3 straight singles, followed by a 3-run HR that brought it to 9-6. Finally, there was Exit Wakefield, Enter Timlin - groundout, strikeout, inning over.

Next inning, same score, save situation, right? In comes arguably our worst reliever, who had been given game-finishing responsibilities that year and done shakily at best - and also had logged 5 two-inning appearances within the previous month. Nobody wanted Brandon Lyon out there, except the guy whose vote counted. With 2 on and 2 out, up comes Ivan Rodriguez, who knocks in a run, followed by Mike "Annus Mirabilis" Lowell, cleanup hitter and MVP vote-getter, who promptly puts it over the fence for a 10-9 lead.

In the aftermath, it was clear Grady had taken his foot off the gas, so as not to put up an embarrassing scoreline two days in a row. The effect was to pull defeat from the jaws of victory - which, given a 7-run lead in the 8th inning, took some doing. "Make Grady Apologize" became a battle cry around SoSH for years. And not least, it clearly cost him some of the owner's good faith, too.

You want to tell me Cora's done anything that would compromise his team's chances of winning, you're gonna need to come up with more than just "the other team looks in the dugout and sees a friend". I mean, wouldn't they want to not make a friend sad? Wouldn't he know their tendencies particularly well, while they're less likely to know his? Just seems like an absurdly small nit to pick, even by SoSH standards.
If my post was an overreaction, I'm not even sure what to classify this response as. Relax, man. Is Cora really so far beyond reproach that even a minor critique is met with this reaction? No where did I say I want a manager with no charisma or loyalty and that burns bridges everywhere they go. I quite literally said the exact opposite, so that was one wild leap you made. I said I love Cora's demeanor and there is no one else I would want managing this team. If the pregame stuff on Sunday was against a team that was not our chief competition for the WS this year that just came into Fenway and took the first two games of the series while making Fenway look like a second home, I wouldn't have batted an eye. The Astros look entirely too comfortable at Fenway, and anything that can be done to change that should be considered. Unless you think the Red Sox should be content to sit there and take it like they did last year in the ALDS.

You then go on to bring up Grady Little as an example of someone who let his personal relationships get in the way of winning baseball games. So you are saying this happens from time to time in baseball, wouldn't that lend credence to my skepticism around Cora's in-season buddy buddy relationship with the Astros? Let me be clear, I do not think or believe for a second that Cora would intentionally do anything to hurt the teams' chances. I just don't see how it helps at this point in the season. Maybe you are right and he is Jedi mind tricking the Astros into losing so they don't make him sad, that is some next level managing. Results did not back your theory up this weekend, however.
 

Reverend

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If my post was an overreaction, I'm not even sure what to classify this response as. Relax, man. Is Cora really so far beyond reproach that even a minor critique is met with this reaction? No where did I say I want a manager with no charisma or loyalty and that burns bridges everywhere they go. I quite literally said the exact opposite, so that was one wild leap you made. I said I love Cora's demeanor and there is no one else I would want managing this team. If the pregame stuff on Sunday was against a team that was not our chief competition for the WS this year that just came into Fenway and took the first two games of the series while making Fenway look like a second home, I wouldn't have batted an eye. The Astros look entirely too comfortable at Fenway, and anything that can be done to change that should be considered. Unless you think the Red Sox should be content to sit there and take it like they did last year in the ALDS.

You then go on to bring up Grady Little as an example of someone who let his personal relationships get in the way of winning baseball games. So you are saying this happens from time to time in baseball, wouldn't that lend credence to my skepticism around Cora's in-season buddy buddy relationship with the Astros? Let me be clear, I do not think or believe for a second that Cora would intentionally do anything to hurt the teams' chances. I just don't see how it helps at this point in the season. Maybe you are right and he is Jedi mind tricking the Astros into losing so they don't make him sad, that is some next level managing. Results did not back your theory up this weekend, however.
I've seen this happening a few times and, as a fan, I think we should get out in front of this:

Can we not confuse excitement and enthusiasm about the team and the sport with someone being upset?

Reasonable people may disagree, but I find it very frustrating when some people, for whatever reason, finds themselves telling other people to stop having some good, clean, baseball fun here.



Here's to looking forward to a glorious final stretch of Cora* continuing to blow our minds. And I like reading reactions like @InstaFace --mostly because I see the emotion as connected the subject matter--Cora, the Red Sox, baseball--than as to any specific poster.

This doesn't have to be personal. It's baseball. :)


*I am convinced that Cora is a ninja. This would explain much of the confusion here, I believe.
 
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Red(s)HawksFan

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Let me be clear, I do not think or believe for a second that Cora would intentionally do anything to hurt the teams' chances. I just don't see how it helps at this point in the season.
It really doesn't hurt either. In fact, it's utterly meaningless that he's chummy with some guys on the other side of the field, whether it's pregame, during the game, postgame or in the off-season. Every team has players/coaches who have played/coached on other teams. As a result, every player or coach in the league has friends in every clubhouse. The days of zero fraternization between teams have been gone since the advent of free agency.

The Astros look comfortable in Fenway because they're a damn fucking good team. With their talent, they should and do look comfortable anywhere they play. I don't think Cora giving them the cold shoulder would make a lick of difference in how comfortable they feel in the ball park. What will make them look less comfortable is the Red Sox outplaying them, which isn't impacted by whether or not the manager hugs their third baseman during BP or not.
 

TheoShmeo

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If my post was an overreaction, I'm not even sure what to classify this response as. Relax, man. Is Cora really so far beyond reproach that even a minor critique is met with this reaction? No where did I say I want a manager with no charisma or loyalty and that burns bridges everywhere they go. I quite literally said the exact opposite, so that was one wild leap you made. I said I love Cora's demeanor and there is no one else I would want managing this team. If the pregame stuff on Sunday was against a team that was not our chief competition for the WS this year that just came into Fenway and took the first two games of the series while making Fenway look like a second home, I wouldn't have batted an eye. The Astros look entirely too comfortable at Fenway, and anything that can be done to change that should be considered. Unless you think the Red Sox should be content to sit there and take it like they did last year in the ALDS.

You then go on to bring up Grady Little as an example of someone who let his personal relationships get in the way of winning baseball games. So you are saying this happens from time to time in baseball, wouldn't that lend credence to my skepticism around Cora's in-season buddy buddy relationship with the Astros? Let me be clear, I do not think or believe for a second that Cora would intentionally do anything to hurt the teams' chances. I just don't see how it helps at this point in the season. Maybe you are right and he is Jedi mind tricking the Astros into losing so they don't make him sad, that is some next level managing. Results did not back your theory up this weekend, however.
Your complaint seems to boil down to how friendly Cora is before and after games.

On some level, I’m sympathetic. Seeing Papi backslap A-Rod and other MFYs before games made me throw up a little in my mouth. I much preferred the Bill Lee attitude. He truly hates Craig Nettles and showed some friends of mine Nettles’ playing card from his wallet, which he still keeps there so he can sit on Nettles at all times. There was no smiling and pre-game handshakes in those days.

But that attitude is no longer prevalent, whether it’s free agency, the times, the higher percentage of Latin American players who came up together or a combination of all of the above and, likely, other factors.

As a result, I don’t think pre-game fraternization is particularly unique to Cora or changing any time soon.

Do you think Cora manages differently against the Astros? If so, and you could point to specifics, I think your point would resonate a lot more.
 
Jun 9, 2011
56
Do you think Cora manages differently against the Astros? If so, and you could point to specifics, I think your point would resonate a lot more.
No, definitely not. My main criticism or concern really is that Houston is incredibly comfortable in Fenway and that needs to somehow change, in my opinion. As others have pointed out, that's likely due to the Astros being incredibly good as opposed Cora's relationship management with opposing players. I stand corrected. Certainly wasn't trying to rain on anyone's fun, this has been such a great season and Cora's approach has been refreshing.
 

geoduck no quahog

not particularly consistent
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Astros record at Fenway last year was 4-2.

They're just a really good team.

They're also the best road team in 2018.

No need to look for other explanations.
 

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
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No, definitely not. My main criticism or concern really is that Houston is incredibly comfortable in Fenway and that needs to somehow change, in my opinion. As others have pointed out, that's likely due to the Astros being incredibly good as opposed Cora's relationship management with opposing players. I stand corrected. Certainly wasn't trying to rain on anyone's fun, this has been such a great season and Cora's approach has been refreshing.
Baseball isn't hockey or football. There's no real way to make the visiting team "uncomfortable", other than to play well: hit the ball, throw the ball, catch the ball.
 

FinanceAdvice

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Apr 1, 2008
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Albany, NY
I was very disappointed when Tito left. Or should I say run out of town? With Farrell it was a disaster with 2013 an outlier. I have nothing but praises for Alex Cora. To me he's great at people skills and is a Players manager. Should be strong consideration for Manager of the Year.
 

TheoShmeo

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No, definitely not. My main criticism or concern really is that Houston is incredibly comfortable in Fenway and that needs to somehow change, in my opinion. As others have pointed out, that's likely due to the Astros being incredibly good as opposed Cora's relationship management with opposing players. I stand corrected. Certainly wasn't trying to rain on anyone's fun, this has been such a great season and Cora's approach has been refreshing.
That wasn't an issue for me. Pointing out potential issues with Cora doesn't detract from my enjoyment in the least. In my case, that he over the course of the season sometimes sat multiple regulars at the same time wasn't optimal, yet I know that they've done exceptionally well with that and am cognizant of the need to rest guys. Saying that shouldn't make anything less enjoyable for other posters and at the same time, doesn't mean that I don't think Cora is a very strong manager. I can't think of anyone I would rather have, actually. I just have an issue that some share and many do not. In any event, I don't agree with your original post on this for the reasons several posters have noted but I'm actually glad you raised it.
 

InstaFace

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I could have gone with a two-liner. I thought everyone who didn't have the event traumatically burned into their lizard brain, though, might appreciate the retelling of a real manager-is-fraternizing-with-the-enemy story.

You then go on to bring up Grady Little as an example of someone who let his personal relationships get in the way of winning baseball games. So you are saying this happens from time to time in baseball, wouldn't that lend credence to my skepticism around Cora's in-season buddy buddy relationship with the Astros? Let me be clear, I do not think or believe for a second that Cora would intentionally do anything to hurt the teams' chances. I just don't see how it helps at this point in the season. Maybe you are right and he is Jedi mind tricking the Astros into losing so they don't make him sad, that is some next level managing. Results did not back your theory up this weekend, however.
Oh god, you're serious about this. Look, let's just agree that the gestalt of Cora's abilities is a huge positive for the team, in a number of definable ways, and also that such skills are intertwined with his high EQ and any positive effects of that (and there are many) come alongside any negative effects of that (if indeed there are any), and can't be easily identified as having a root cause or series or decisions we can point to.

We have an array of decisions that are analyzable by thoughtful fans, pretty much anyone here.

Tactical:
- Lineup choices
- Starter hook
- Bullpen usage
- PHing choices
- Play-call choices

Strategic:
- Injury management and conservatism
- Media communication, setting tone, shielding players, maintaining positivity
- Player rest and season-long planning around health risk management
- Player trades and acquisition advice (obviously jointly with DDski)
- Player personality, motivation and morale management

You could quibble with a few or add some other minor ones but I think those are the main tasks. And I don't see a particular weakness in any of them with Cora, so inventing something else to complain about seems like the very definition of petty.

Oh, and most importantly:
I stand corrected. Certainly wasn't trying to rain on anyone's fun, this has been such a great season and Cora's approach has been refreshing.
In case it wasn't clear: this is all of us having fun. This is why we're here.

 
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Jun 9, 2011
56
We have an array of decisions that are analyzable by thoughtful fans, pretty much anyone here.

Tactical:
- Lineup choices
- Starter hook
- Bullpen usage
- PHing choices
- Play-call choices

Strategic:
- Injury management and conservatism
- Media communication, setting tone, shielding players, maintaining positivity
- Player rest and season-long planning around health risk management
- Player trades and acquisition advice (obviously jointly with DDski)
- Player personality, motivation and morale management

You could quibble with a few or add some other minor ones but I think those are the main tasks. And I don't see a particular weakness in any of them with Cora, so inventing something else to complain about seems like the very definition of petty.

Oh, and most importantly:

In case it wasn't clear: this is all of us having fun. This is why we're here.
I did not invent Alex Cora's close relationship with many members of the Astro's organization, that is a thing. I simply raised the question if it concerned anyone else with respect to the Astros comfort in Fenway. Didn't bother anyone else, so I guess there is nothing to see here. I am not sure why that warranted a full on defense of Cora's managing abilities. He's been nothing short of excellent. I think it's more than fair to question a manager's approach to something, albeit small, while still fully supporting them and acknowledging that they are doing a fantastic job. The Red Sox and the Astros are neck and neck this year, any potential ALCS match up is going to be decided by the cumulative effect of a number of small things. The Astros comfort in Fenway will likely be one of them, but I do agree that is definitively more a function of them being an awesome team as opposed to anything Alex Cora can control.

My "rain on anyone's fun" comment was in response to Reverend's comment that he finds it "very frustrating when some people, for whatever reason, finds themselves telling other people to stop having some good, clean, baseball fun here." I believe that was directed at me, and it really wasn't my intention. FWIW, I have been a reader of SoSH since prior to the Thanksgiving of 2003, I just have never posted much at all- clearly. I do understand the general tone of the board and am here because I live in Yankee territory and Sox fans/discussion are tough to find.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Mar 26, 2005
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Good article on Cora and analytics here: https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/09/28/how-alex-cora-changed-culture-red-sox-regarding-analytics/X3DnKNLfmZRtKAmCIQ701H/story.html. Snippet:

Perhaps most notably, Cora has been an agent of change for the Red Sox regarding information and analytics, the areas most often caricatured as corrosive to the modern manager. He has been a catalyst for the increased integration of data into the team’s preparation and game management, pushing the envelope beyond even what the front office expected.

Such a development was part of the allure of hiring Cora after his year as bench coach for the 2017 World Series champion Houston Astros. In the words of Boston president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski, a manager’s potential application of analytics was “a large part of our interview process.”
 

Reverend

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Good article on Cora and analytics here: https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/09/28/how-alex-cora-changed-culture-red-sox-regarding-analytics/X3DnKNLfmZRtKAmCIQ701H/story.html. Snippet:

Perhaps most notably, Cora has been an agent of change for the Red Sox regarding information and analytics, the areas most often caricatured as corrosive to the modern manager. He has been a catalyst for the increased integration of data into the team’s preparation and game management, pushing the envelope beyond even what the front office expected.

Such a development was part of the allure of hiring Cora after his year as bench coach for the 2017 World Series champion Houston Astros. In the words of Boston president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski, a manager’s potential application of analytics was “a large part of our interview process.”
This sounds to me in a lot of ways that much of the increased leverage they feel they are getting is from not the new more advanced analytics themselves, but in how the information is conveyed and how they go about getting buy in.

Specifically, Cora sounds like a cross between Saul Alinsky and the Dread Pirate Roberts. I don't know where he learned this stuff or if he's just a natural, but he is using some very sophisticated people techniques--and the difference between coaching to a young team versus a veteran team as with the comparison to Farrell may be especially pronounced here.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
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Jul 10, 2007
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The wrong side of the bridge....
Good article on Cora and analytics here: https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/09/28/how-alex-cora-changed-culture-red-sox-regarding-analytics/X3DnKNLfmZRtKAmCIQ701H/story.html. Snippet:

Perhaps most notably, Cora has been an agent of change for the Red Sox regarding information and analytics, the areas most often caricatured as corrosive to the modern manager. He has been a catalyst for the increased integration of data into the team’s preparation and game management, pushing the envelope beyond even what the front office expected.

Such a development was part of the allure of hiring Cora after his year as bench coach for the 2017 World Series champion Houston Astros. In the words of Boston president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski, a manager’s potential application of analytics was “a large part of our interview process.”
It fascinates me that we now have a manager who's an analytics enthusiast, and a general manager who's open to using them but views them from a more old-school perspective. It's Tito/Theo, but in reverse.
 

Reverend

for king and country
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So I've read that Cora was reckless last night in playing to retain some pen for Price's start tonight, and I've read that he did poorly in only playing for the one game with no plan for the series.

Which is it, now?
 

uncannymanny

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So I've read that Cora was reckless last night in playing to retain some pen for Price's start tonight, and I've read that he did poorly in only playing for the one game with no plan for the series.

Which is it, now?
Both.
 

oumbi

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Jun 15, 2006
4,167
So I've read that Cora was reckless last night in playing to retain some pen for Price's start tonight, and I've read that he did poorly in only playing for the one game with no plan for the series.

Which is it, now?
Would you please share some specifics on this "reckless" thinking/actions? Was he drinking and managing? Texting and picking relievers? Not looking both ways before crossing the foul line when on the way to talk with a pitcher?

Also, I think his original plan may have included having Wright ready in the bullpen for game one, saving certain other relievers for game two. Suddenly, plan A may have gone out the window and he had to use available relievers not reserved to tonight's game.

So, while I know zero and am only guessing here, Cora might have not been reckless and he might have been following a larger plan for the series.