The bench thread

[Yelling At Clouds]

Since the Martinez and Nuñez threads are getting cluttered with speculation on who the odd men out will be, I figured I'd start a new thread for discussion of precisely that.

If you'd asked me a couple of weeks ago, I would have assumed that the Sox had a mostly-set bench: Holt, because of his track record, would probably have to really be terrible to lose his gig, and then there were four other guys who couldn't be optioned. Three of them - Brentz, Marrero, and Leon - fit obvious bench roles, and the fourth, Swihart, has been adding versatility and is generally a guy who it would suck to lose for nothing. Add a guy like Lin or Hernandez to fill in for Pedroia, and they're good to go.

Now with Nuñez and JD on board, things are more complicated. At the very least, either Moreland or Hanley has to sit more often and carrying three multi-position infielders seems ... sub-optimal. So who stays? Who goes?

(I recognize there is also the possibility of trading Bradley or Benintendi, but let's not get into that right now.)

 

[bosockboy]

Educated guess:

Ramirez/Moreland
Swihart
Marrero
Leon

Marrero gone when Pedroia returns.

Holt traded, Brentz DFA.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

How soon would we need to clear Brentz’s roster spot? Is there a realistic chance of showcasing him in spring training and potentially getting something of small value for him in a trade? Catching depth or relief depth with options?

 

[Harry Hooper]

Educated guess:

Ramirez/Moreland
Swihart
Marrero
Leon

Marrero gone when Pedroia returns.

Holt traded, Brentz DFA.

No need to lock the thread, but that likely covers it.

 

[JimD]

If Swihart is indeed capable of functioning as the backup catcher and Brentz shows any promise at all in ST or the early season games, I'd rather keep Brentz and his potential power and send Leon packing.

 

[MikeM]

If we aren't going to trade Bradley and really are keeping one of Moreland and Hanley on the full time bench, I still think the odds that a healthy Holt makes that final 4 cut keep going up given he can reasonably cover the OF as well.

Ramirez/Moreland
Holt
Marrero
Leon

Marrero gone once Pedroia returns.

Swihart traded for a depth piece with options and Brentz either going with him or DFA.

 

[bosockboy]

If Swihart is indeed capable of functioning as the backup catcher and Brentz shows any promise at all in ST or the early season games, I'd rather keep Brentz and his potential power and send Leon packing.

I think Swihart as a 3rd catcher is pretty valuable when they will have pinch hitters like Ramirez, Moreland and Nunez on the bench.

 

[grimshaw]

It's unlikely, but If Marco Hernandez is healthy, really hits and shows that he isn't a black hole then he could beat out Marrero and Nunez could spell Bogaerts at short. Most of us think Deven is gone when Pedey comes back anyhow so what does another month or so matter?

They may just go with the best showings in spring too rather than worry too much about hoarding marginal players. Though the complete lack of catching options makes me think Swihart and Leon both stick around.

DD seems to like Brentz too. From the GM meetings back in November regarding who the 4th outfielder could be:

"Right now, we'll have Bryce Brentz do that job for us," Red Sox president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski said Tuesday from the General Managers Meetings in Orlando, Fla. "We always, in our own mind, felt that [he would get a chance] if he could get to that time at the end of the year where we could protect him. We're looking at him. He has a leg up. We're not really looking to go sign somebody at this time."

I don't know if Martinez changes things or not. I would guess he wouldn't play much outfield.

 

[nvalvo]

So much depends on how Swihart and Holt look. Both of them have had absolute garbage numbers recently due to lingering injuries. If they both look healthy, I’m guessing Swihart gets the nod. He’s a bit cheaper in a season where we’re toeing the CBT penalty line, and potentially even more flexible positionally with his ability to play C.

 

[MikeM]

So much depends on how Swihart and Holt look. Both of them have had absolute garbage numbers recently due to lingering injuries. If they both look healthy, I’m guessing Swihart gets the nod. He’s a bit cheaper in a season where we’re toeing the CBT penalty line, and potentially even more flexible positionally with his ability to play C.

Is Swihart the one coming in to man an OF spot in the event you want to make an in-game switch without cringing or invoking the DH rule? Do those instances actually number less then the projected times the appeal of having a 3rd catcher might come into play?

IDK, to me it isn't as clear cut as simply liking the idea of Swihart's already fairly dated upside potential.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

I really hope we hold on to Brentz but I'd also like to see that kid end up in Oakland or Tampa with a starting gig at the same time.
Swihart
Hanley
Leon
Marrero

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I think Swihart as a 3rd catcher is pretty valuable when they will have pinch hitters like Ramirez, Moreland and Nunez on the bench.

This echoes what I’ve been thinking. Moreland and Swihart really do a good job complementing each other as bench pieces.

Catcher (Vazquez/Leon) really is the only part of the lineup which needs a PH. Moreland provides a high-quality bat off the bench for whoever starts, while Swihart can pinch-run and play catcher afterward. Or, if either poor slugger on the team (JDM/Hanley) hits a 2B in the 8th/9th, Cora can PR Swihart and then use Moreland afterward. And Marrero provides a higher quality defensive 2B/SS/3B than any of the other options.

When Pedroia is out and Nunez is the 2B starter, the bench really should be Moreland, Swihart, Marrero, and the backup catcher. It would be great if the Sox could stock two arms able to pitch 2-3 innings, and therefore allow the team to carry a 5-man bench and only 6 relievers. Johnson and Wright (Elias until EdRo returns) may be exactly what the team needs to do this.

Of course, the elephant in the room is how much Benintendi improves against LHP. The Sox could keep Brentz around as a fifth bench bat, if they’re worried about that.

 

[joe dokes]

Isn't a healthy Hernandez a better player than Marrero?

 

[Merkle's Boner]

Isn't a healthy Hernandez a better player than Marrero?

Agreed. I posted in another thread, but I'd be very surprised if Marrero beats out Marco, and I would not be terribly surprised if Marco ends up getting more ABs than Nunez.

 

[AB in DC]

When Pedroia is out and Nunez is the 2B starter, the bench really should be Moreland, Swihart, Marrero, and the backup catcher.

Again, the problem here is that there's no backup outfielder if someone gets hurt. Do you really want to see Ramirez or Swihart running toward the LF wall again? Or move Martinez there and force the pitcher to come in and hit, with one fewer PH available? Given that Nunez starts the season at 2B, I don't think he'd be getting enough OF reps to be a viable option.

I think what we're looking at is Brentz and Holt competing for the 4th OF slot, which leaves the bench at:

- Moreland,
- Swihart/Leon
- Brentz/Holt/??
- Whichever infielder is keeping Pedroia's seat warm

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I don't understand the fear of Swihart playing the outfield. Because he had a freak injury while playing there in 2016? Big deal. He's a perfectly reasonable option as a 4th OF/utility player on this roster.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Agreed. I posted in another thread, but I'd be very surprised if Marrero beats out Marco, and I would not be terribly surprised if Marco ends up getting more ABs than Nunez.

Hernandez said just last week that he can't even swing a bat on consecutive days without pain, according to PeteAbe as quoted on Marco's FG page. That makes it seem highly unlikely he'll break camp with the team, especially since he has options left. It wouldn't necessarily surprise me to see him take over Marrero's role before the year is over, but I think it'll be a while, and it will get complicated when Pedey comes back, since at that point in order for there to be room on the roster for Marco, either one of the catchers or Brentz has to go.

Unless, of course, Hanley is traded or released in the meantime.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I don't understand the fear of Swihart playing the outfield. Because he had a freak injury while playing there in 2016? Big deal. He's a perfectly reasonable option as a 4th OF/utility player on this roster.

Wait, you mean the injury wasn't the 100% inevitable and foreseeable consequence of the unprecedented folly of moving a catcher to the outfield? Stop the presses!

 

[Rasputin]

If Swihart is indeed capable of functioning as the backup catcher and Brentz shows any promise at all in ST or the early season games, I'd rather keep Brentz and his potential power and send Leon packing.

Yeah, I don't think it's all that likely that they keep both Swihart and Leon. I also don't want Martinez to be the 4th outfielder.

Mind you, I'd like to have a third catcher, but with Nunez, there's less need for the utility guy to play third which makes Holt--if he's not toast--a much more palatable option.

I think almost any combination you can come up with has a reasonable chance of happening.

 

[joe dokes]

Hernandez said just last week that he can't even swing a bat on consecutive days without pain, according to PeteAbe as quoted on Marco's FG page. That makes it seem highly unlikely he'll break camp with the team, especially since he has options left. It wouldn't necessarily surprise me to see him take over Marrero's role before the year is over, but I think it'll be a while, and it will get complicated when Pedey comes back, since at that point in order for there to be room on the roster for Marco, either one of the catchers or Brentz has to go.
.

I missed that.

Is Martinez playing 25-35 games in the OF really out of the question? If it is, then they might need more than him and Swihart. That's really Holt's ace in the hole. He's a very competent OF (by my eyes, anyway).

 

[MikeM]

I don't understand the fear of Swihart playing the outfield. Because he had a freak injury while playing there in 2016? Big deal. He's a perfectly reasonable option as a 4th OF/utility player on this roster.

I don't know if has anything to do with "fear" as much as it is pointing out the surrounding logic in going with the guy who from a more tangible POV offers this team (as constructed) more, and that you really don't have any defensive reservations on in that spot period.

 

[AB in DC]

Wait, you mean the injury wasn't the 100% inevitable and foreseeable consequence of the unprecedented folly of moving a catcher to the outfield? Stop the presses!

Baseball players aren't chess pieces that can be moved around the board at a moment's notice. If Swihart is going to be the 4th OF, then he'll need a lot of practice in spring training before we can count on his as being playing competent defense. All that extra time in the OF means less time for him to grow into a catcher role. He's out of options now, so we're at the point where the Sox need to make a decision one way or other about how Swihart is going to help the franchise. Either he's going to be a Chris Young type back-up OF and occasional PH, or he's going to be a catcher. He can't be both.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Is Martinez playing 25-35 games in the OF really out of the question?

The exact number might be tough to predict, but he will certainly get some starts out there. If nothing else, it's a given that he'll start in road games vs. NL teams, especially vs. LHP, but probably even vs. RHP. My guess is that he'll replace Benintendi vs. LHP, and move Beni over to CF to replace JBJ vs. RHP. So that's 10 starts right there. He'll probably also get some OF starts to rest Beni and/or JBJ vs. tougher LHSP at home or in AL road games. That turns into 25-35 starts pretty quickly, I think.

Brentz might get some of the home/AL starts vs. LHSP, but my guess is that they'll keep Brentz (if he's on the team at all) in more of an injury backup/PH role and give most of the starts to JDM to keep him happy, since we know he likes to play the OF. It's not like Brentz is a defensive wizard.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I missed that.

Is Martinez playing 25-35 games in the OF really out of the question? If it is, then they might need more than him and Swihart. That's really Holt's ace in the hole. He's a very competent OF (by my eyes, anyway).

This outfield conundrum is where having a 5-man bench would really help. Brentz would provide the team not only with RH bench power, but also could cover both corner outfield spots adequately.

I think the team will shed one of Holt or Leon when all is said and done. The $2MM savings from either one allows the team more flexibility to address whatever bullpen hole arises during the season.

 

[joe dokes]

The exact number might be tough to predict, but he will certainly get some starts out there. If nothing else, it's a given that he'll start in road games vs. NL teams, especially vs. LHP, but probably even vs. RHP. My guess is that he'll replace Benintendi vs. LHP, and move Beni over to CF to replace JBJ vs. RHP. So that's 10 starts right there. He'll probably also get some OF starts to rest Beni and/or JBJ vs. tougher LHSP at home or in AL road games. That turns into 25-35 starts pretty quickly, I think.

Brentz might get some of the home/AL starts vs. LHSP, but my guess is that they'll keep Brentz (if he's on the team at all) in more of an injury backup/PH role and give most of the starts to JDM to keep him happy, since we know he likes to play the OF. It's not like Brentz is a defensive wizard.

Sounds logical. But by "out of the question" I poorly phrased what I meant ---- is he so bad that 25-35 games is a bad idea.?

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

Leon worked really closely with Sale last year almost to the point of being a personal catcher for him. I know Sale's an adult and a professional, but I'd be trying to keep him happy if I were management.

 

[MikeM]

I think the team will shed one of Holt or Leon when all is said and done. The $2MM savings from either one allows the team more flexibility to address whatever bullpen hole arises during the season.

I'm really far from this board's biggest Leon fan, but at the end of the day I just can't see them messing with his relationship to this pitching staff in the name of chasing down Swihart's once-upon-a-time upside.

His spot in this spring's final 4 is a current given imo.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Sounds logical. But by "out of the question" I poorly phrased what I meant ---- is he so bad that 25-35 games is a bad idea.?

Over the past two years, by UZR/150 he's been the worst outfielder in MLB to play at least 1000 innings out there. And by a substantial margin: he's almost 4 runs worse than the next worst guy. DRS is a little kinder, but only a little, and partly because it's a counting stat and he's played fewer innings than the three guys (McCutchen, Kemp and Span) who are worse.

OTOH, he put up positive numbers just three years ago. So probably injuries have played a role there.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Mentioned this in the minor league thread .. what is the status on Rusney Castillo's contract? I have seen reports that they can no longer bury him in Pawtucket in order to save the 10m tax hit?

If that is true - and his 10m is already being included in their payroll in regards to the LT - then Castillo certainly has to be an option as a 4th OF. I'd prefer him to Brentz in that scenario. He'd have to be added to the 40man roster. If its not true, then that ship has sailed and has sunk somewhere off of Bermuda.


If they carry a 4 man bench (post Pedroia return) then its 6 or 7 guys for 4 spots

Locks:
Nunez
Moreland

Bubble:
One of Leon/Swihart*
One of Holt/Lin/Marrero*/Castillo (see above)/the loser in the backup C competition

* out of options

Have I forgotten someone? Marco Hernandez?

Edit: added Marrero , removed Brentz

 

[tonyarmasjr]

I'm really far from this board's biggest Leon fan, but at the end of the day I just can't see them messing with his relationship to this pitching staff in the name of chasing down Swihart's once-upon-a-time upside.

His spot in this spring's final 4 is a current given imo.

Agree with this. Though I'd like them to find some way to try to chase down that upside of Swihart. I think that means they have to find him at least one other position than C, with an eye toward transitioning to a Vazquez/Swihart split in 2019 or beyond. Easier said than done, but the low bar Leon sets can hopefully be jumped over.

 

[Rice4HOF]

Well, Bryce Brentz won’t be on it

 

[jon abbey]

I'm really far from this board's biggest Leon fan, but at the end of the day I just can't see them messing with his relationship to this pitching staff in the name of chasing down Swihart's once-upon-a-time upside.

His spot in this spring's final 4 is a current given imo.

FWIW, I have thought all winter (based on nothing) that NY would jump on Leon as a Romine upgrade if BOS releases him.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Baseball players aren't chess pieces that can be moved around the board at a moment's notice. If Swihart is going to be the 4th OF, then he'll need a lot of practice in spring training before we can count on his as being playing competent defense. All that extra time in the OF means less time for him to grow into a catcher role. He's out of options now, so we're at the point where the Sox need to make a decision one way or other about how Swihart is going to help the franchise. Either he's going to be a Chris Young type back-up OF and occasional PH, or he's going to be a catcher. He can't be both.

He played competent defense in LF two years ago without a ton of practice (a few games in Pawtucket before the call-up). If it's a matter of putting him out there late in a game because of an injury or pinch hitting situation that creates a need, I don't think it will matter if he's primarily working as a catcher or a utility player, he should be able to handle himself just fine.

If it's a matter of more long term fill-in due to a DL stint, maybe he isn't the answer (and the solution is playing Martinez and DHing Hanley or someone else). But if he's on the roster in any capacity, I don't think Alex Cora needs to hesitate a bit to use Swihart in the outfield if the need arises.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Over the past two years, by UZR/150 he's been the worst outfielder in MLB to play at least 1000 innings out there. And by a substantial margin: he's almost 4 runs worse than the next worst guy. DRS is a little kinder, but only a little, and partly because it's a counting stat and he's played fewer innings than the three guys (McCutchen, Kemp and Span) who are worse.

OTOH, he put up positive numbers just three years ago. So probably injuries have played a role there.

How the hell is McCutchen one of the three worst outfielders in the league. Fuck that stat if that's how it ranked Cutch. He's not awesome... but there's something seriously wrong with that.....

 

[The Mort Report]

How the hell is McCutchen one of the three worst outfielders in the league. Fuck that stat if that's how it ranked Cutch. He's not awesome... but there's something seriously wrong with that.....

I was going to post the same thing. I know its not an exact science and rating defenders is still very difficult, but I think defense, especially in the OF, is easily measured by pass the eye test. We can see the routes, the jumps, the throws. There is not much hard to judge things like pitch framing or anything like that.

As to the bench, I believe we will see 5 guys out of ST. Remember the beginning of the season has more off days than normal, so there is little need for a 5th starter the first couple times through. This also lines up with Eduardo targeting an end of April return date. I could see them optioning a guy from the BP, bring Wright along(assuming he's allowed to play), and give ER spot to an OF. This way the team gets more time to see if Swihart can handle to OF while having another option.

The fan in me would love to see Castillo get a chance, but the Red Sox seem to love having one late 20's non prospect white dude who has a little power he showed off playing for a North Dakota semi professional softball league last year

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

The fan in me would love to see Castillo get a chance, but the Red Sox seem to love having one late 20's non prospect white dude who has a little power he showed off playing for a North Dakota semi professional softball league last year

Yes, this is exactly why Castillo has been kept in the minors.

 

[joe dokes]

Starting with 6 straight days out of the chute, with no days off. Seems unusual and might affect the 1st week roster makeup. e Start in a dome cuts out the 2nd day rain date makeup.

 

[The Mort Report]

Yes, this is exactly why Castillo has been kept in the minors.

Wait its not? My other thought was it because he hasn't shown much and was off the 40 man roster so his contract didn't count on the team payroll... but that's just taking myself waaay too seriously to believe that!

Starting with 6 straight days out of the chute, with no days off. Seems unusual and might affect the 1st week roster makeup. e Start in a dome cuts out the 2nd day rain date makeup.

Really? My bad I should have checked. That's so strange though for what we normally see. In that case I could see it constantly changing between 4 and 5 guys for the first month. Id put the over under on the change at 5

 

[Pozo the Clown]

Manager Alex Cora said prior to Thursday's doubleheader that Swihart will focus on catching, playing the outfield and serving as designated hitter over the next week or so. He didn't have a timetable for when Swihart would start seeing time in the infield.

"Versatile enough that you never know in an extra inning game, you pinch-run and somebody gets hurt, and then that can help him (versatility) wise," Cora said.

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2018/02/the_plan_for_blake_swiharts_pl.html#incart_river_index

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Marco Hernandez won't be playing at all this spring after a follow-up procedure on his shoulder to remove hardware. Looks like the soonest he'll be back is probably May or June. Seems like this solidifies the battle for the utility infield spot as a Holt vs Marrero one.

 

[chawson]

File under February, but Swihart’s looking pretty squeezed.

Re-establishing him as a prospect/viable major league asset would go a long way toward extending this team’s window. I suppose they could swap him for a pitcher with a similar story — like a former top prospect that’s stalled out a bit — but I’m not sure who that would be.

 

[bosockboy]

File under February, but Swihart’s looking pretty squeezed.

Re-establishing him as a prospect/viable major league asset would go a long way toward extending this team’s window. I suppose they could swap him for a pitcher with a similar story — like a former top prospect that’s stalled out a bit — but I’m not sure who that would be.

Probably doesn’t preclude him from being a Swiss Army knife type player.

 

[chawson]

Probably doesn’t preclude him from being a Swiss Army knife type player.

Seems like a waste. 100 or 150 PAs from him as a Swiss Army knife won’t tell us anything about his true ability, nor will it tell other teams, and then we’d be in the same spot next year with him slotted as the team’s 25th man without knowing anything about what he can do.

Not sure how it happens, but I’d love for him to get 300 PAs with us this year.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Seems like a waste. 100 or 150 PAs from him as a Swiss Army knife won’t tell us anything about his true ability, nor will it tell other teams, and then we’d be in the same spot next year with him slotted as the team’s 25th man without knowing anything about what he can do.

Not sure how it happens, but I’d love for him to get 300 PAs with us this year.

The way it happens is probably due to injuries. The more positions he's seen as an option to play, the better his chances of finding more playing time due to any injury to a position player. An injury to an outfielder could open playing time for him in LF. An injury to an infielder might given him a chance at 3B (or 2B as was hinted at barely a week ago). And of course, an injury to Leon or Vazquez gives him a shot behind the plate.

At this point, it all comes down to how much confidence Cora and Dombrowski have in his ability to play anywhere on the diamond. And I imagine that confidence will be gained or lost with how he performs in spring training, particularly at the plate. If he hits, he sticks, IMO.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

File under February, but Swihart’s looking pretty squeezed.

I don't think this really changes his status, because I don't think it was ever realistic to imagine the team making him their only backup catcher. There are too many unresolved questions about his defense. If he has a place on the team, it's as a supersub.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

The way it happens is probably due to injuries. The more positions he's seen as an option to play, the better his chances of finding more playing time due to any injury to a position player. An injury to an outfielder could open playing time for him in LF. An injury to an infielder might given him a chance at 3B (or 2B as was hinted at barely a week ago). And of course, an injury to Leon or Vazquez gives him a shot behind the plate.

At this point, it all comes down to how much confidence Cora and Dombrowski have in his ability to play anywhere on the diamond. And I imagine that confidence will be gained or lost with how he performs in spring training, particularly at the plate. If he hits, he sticks, IMO.

The signing of Nunez, the ability of Marrero to play any defensive infield position, and the presence of Lin in AAA combine to mean that Swihart doesn’t need to play anywhere on the diamond. Really, if he only shows competence in LF and RF in addition to catcher, then he adds significant value to the current roster. So long as he hits MLB pitching and is able to run.

The fact the Sox have no catching prospects in AA/AAA makes keeping Swihart around as injury insurance fairly important as depth, assuming he stays healthy.

 

[Jerry’s Curl]

Pete Abraham on Twitter
Three walks, a triple and a double for Blake Swihart in two days. Results aside, that he is running like he did before the ankle injury is a good sign for the #RedSox

 

[chawson]

Video of Swihart and Barfield going yard today.

This is February and hit off AA pitcher Jose Mesa, but Jeremy Barfield’s swing looks extremely Edwin Encarnacion.

 

[nvalvo]

Pete Abraham on Twitter
Three walks, a triple and a double for Blake Swihart in two days. Results aside, that he is running like he did before the ankle injury is a good sign for the #RedSox

After another double, another walk, and now a HR, I think he's only made one out. So his slashline is something like .800/.888/2.200, for a 3.088 OPS, if I did the math right.

 

[uk_sox_fan]

He struck out and flied out in the Twins game (1 for 3 with a 2b, run and a BB) so he’s been out twice. Also the box scores have him with 2 doubles rather than a 2b and a 3b. I have him slashing .600/.714/1.600 for a far more pedestrian 2314 OPS.

More importantly, if he does manage to hit and play well this Spring it opens up the entire bench for Cora. The ability to PH at will for Vazquez/Pena in high leverage situations could be a very important asset this year assuming the 3 catchers stay healthy and the insurance of having a third MLB-ready catcher already on hand if one of them doesn’t is as valuable as it is rare in my opinion. It could be that all the hand-wringing about not trading Blake when his value was highest might have been for naught.

I can see the “I ︎ Swi︎ “ t-shirts selling like hotcakes come August...