The Cardinal in the Computer System

E5 Yaz

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steveluck7 said:
FWIW, that wasn't Passan's tweet. It was linked on the first page of this thread. it was somebody named Scott Newport tweeting at Jeff Passan
 
Exactly
 
https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/610833822280646656
 

E5 Yaz

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From Passan's story on this:
 
 
If this was simply the manifestation of rogue Cardinals analysts, $50,000-a-year guys rummaging through another team’s database for giggles, it’s more a black eye for the Cardinals than a gut shot. Of course, that presupposes that the low-level staffers not only stole the information from the Astros but didn’t reveal the hack to anybody else in the organization. Which is possible, yes, if not altogether likely.
The nightmare for the Cardinals would be if knowledge of the information reached higher levels. The second anybody in any position of power knew of the breach and did not report it to Major League Baseball or authorities, he or she not only would be helping cover up a crime but implicitly endorsing it by continuing to employ those under investigation, which the Cardinals still do.
Should the allegations prove true and the brainchild of a higher-up official, the fallout would be immense. The idea of the Astros falling victim to a Cardinals-sanctioned skunkworks projectwould make Spygate look like an innocent home video, and MLB would have no choice but to hammer the organization with a penalty unlike any before seen.
 
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-real-threat-for-cardinals-is-how-high-investigation-could-reach-191525747.html
 

Norm Siebern

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 Belichick and Larussa are long time bestest buddies. Of course, somehow this will be blamed on the evil hooded genius.
 
http://m.mlb.com/cutfour/2015/01/23/107271666/super-bowl-countdown-bill-belichick-wears-a-tony-la-russa-jersey-and-stares-into-your-soul
 
 
 
I eagerly await the pitchforks and torches from the media. If Mad Dog, ESPN, et al  dont hyperventilate over this (hack, not an absurd Belichick/Larussa connection) they are massive hypocrites.
 
 
edited for clarity, in case anyone thought I was serious about a Belichick/Larussa connection.
 

RedOctober3829

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CaptainLaddie said:
I have to think if this was just a few low-level guys making $50k that this wouldn't have been an 11-months-so-far investigation.
Right.  Either a higher level official ordered this or turned their heads and allowed it to happen.  Either way, if any high level FO people even knew about it they are screwed.  This isn't deflating footballs or taping signals.  This could be jail time.
 

Seels

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I'd love to be outraged by this but have no conceivable idea what the advantage to this would possibly be. Did the Cardinals need help beating the Astros  ?
 

Norm Siebern

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Seels said:
I'd love to be outraged by this but have no conceivable idea what the advantage to this would possibly be. Did the Cardinals need help beating the Astros  ?
 
The Astros have a remarkable amount of talent in their minor league system, and as is seen this year they are excellent talent evaluators. That anyone would want to tap into that abiliy makes a lot of sense. I wish the Red Sox could evaluate young talent as well as the Astros.
 

E5 Yaz

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Seels said:
I'd love to be outraged by this but have no conceivable idea what the advantage to this would possibly be. Did the Cardinals need help beating the Astros  ?
 
Although competitive advantage isn't the largest part of this, consider:
 
Part of what was stolen was scouting reports. Say the Astros have scouting reports on Cardinals opponents that would add to what St. Louis already has. That could be an edge.
 
Part is what the Astros apparently offered in trade talks to other teams. That gives the Cardinals a fuller idea of what is on the table.
 
Most importantly, though, is that this is a federal case. The punishments could be both federal and sport sanctioned.
 
It's a big deal
 

Seels

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Norm Siebern said:
 
The Astros have a remarkable amount of talent in their minor league system, and as is seen this year they are excellent talent evaluators. That anyone would want to tap into that abiliy makes a lot of sense. I wish the Red Sox could evaluate young talent as well as the Astros.
I'm not sure any amount of hacking is going to give a team as many high end picks as the Astros have had in recent years. This is kind of ilke the Rays of 6-7 years ago...
 

Norm Siebern

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Seels said:
I'm not sure any amount of hacking is going to give a team as many high end picks as the Astros have had in recent years. This is kind of ilke the Rays of 6-7 years ago...
 
True, but you still have to evaluate the talent, and past the first few rounds. Any kind of knowledge as to what another team values, judges, sees and decides is going to be a competitive advantage for another team. 
 

DJnVa

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Seels said:
I'd love to be outraged by this but have no conceivable idea what the advantage to this would possibly be. Did the Cardinals need help beating the Astros  ?
 
The articles say that they thought Luhnow took proprietary data with him when he left.
 
But you don't see any benefit to getting into a rivals network and seeing what they think? Maybe they are after the same player at the deadline and see what is being offered. Who knows, but to say you have no idea what advantage there may be?
 
 
Also, another article I read says the hack was traced to the home of a Cardinals employee. I haven't seen that anywhere else yet.
 

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caminante11 said:
Isn't this the same Astros that had their internal messages about players leaked a while back?
 
I'm listening on ESPN now, and apparently this is exactly what started the investigation. The Astros thought it was some hacking group, but it turns out it was the Cardinals. Oops.
 

DJnVa

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Ed Hillel said:
 
I'm listening on ESPN now, and apparently this is exactly what started the investigation. The Astros thought it was some hacking group, but it turns out it was the Cardinals. Oops.
 
And in that release of info last year, other teams private discussions were released, which means it's not just the Astros who will be pissed off.
 
 

GBrushTWood

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Norm Siebern said:
 
The Astros have a remarkable amount of talent in their minor league system, and as is seen this year they are excellent talent evaluators. That anyone would want to tap into that abiliy makes a lot of sense. I wish the Red Sox could evaluate young talent as well as the Astros.
 
Seels said:
I'm not sure any amount of hacking is going to give a team as many high end picks as the Astros have had in recent years. This is kind of ilke the Rays of 6-7 years ago...
 
I would say capturing all of the trade proposals that every other Major League Team is offering the Astros for their players is a major advantages in trade negotiations, amongst other baseball activities.
 
For example, per the leaked documents last year, it appears Luhnow requested at least Webster, Bogaerts, De La Rosa, or Cecchini from Cherington in a potential Bud Norris trade 2 years ago. I believe Cherington said no to all of those guys. However, if Cherington said yes to 1, and the Cardinals somehow intercepted that in the middle of discussions, then conceivably the Cardinals could have lurched in and made a competing offer. Tough to truly quantify, but it raises this type of question.
 
The key point for me is we need to understand a lot more facts before beating off to the outrage porn in front of us:
 
1) How many intrusions occurred? When did they happen? Dates/timestamps needed. These should be logged somewhere. If it's 1 Cardinals analyst logging in once during the winter, meh. If it's a few people tapping in 2-3x/day over a long range, very incriminating.
2) Who in St. Louis knew this was going on? Currently unclear who was aware/who was not. I imagine FBI will have all of the Cardinals emails to pour through.
3) What other data was stolen? Was it just trade banter? Scouting reports? Proprietary formulas? 
 
It could be pretty serious offenses committed by St. Louis, but again, I think we need to see more information. Obviously that won't stop most from casting their judgments today. Particularly in the sports media, per usual.
 

Gunfighter 09

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The FBI involvement and threat of serving time probably means that the DeWitts aren't going to be able to offer some "$50K a year staffer" a couple of Arby's franchises in Montana to take the fall for this, so I imagine MLB is going to get the truth from the fed's investigation. 
 
I am fascinated by what the potential punishments could be in this case. You can take the bullshit penalties the NFL just leveled on New England (large $ and two high draft picks) and compare it to the Joe Smith contract penalty the Timberwolves paid last decade (3 x #1 draft picks) and that would be a starting point if the GM or ownership was aware. 
 
Obviously anyone loosely connected to this is looking at a very long (potentially lifetime) suspension. Assuming the worst case is true, what is a fair punishment for the franchise that doesn't start a fight with the union?  
 
- Losing an entire draft + additional premium round picks? The picks would have to be redistributed to other teams to ensure the same number of players are drafted.
-A gigantic ($10Mish) fine for the franchise?
-Some sort of salary cap, with the fine amount getting distributed to the Union? 
-A postseason ban?
-Does Houston rate a greater share of the punishment (like draft picks) since they were the most direct victims (though not the only victims) of this nonsense? 
 
Frankly, MLB could levee all five of these penalties, and, once again, assuming worst case, I would think it was reasonable. 
 

curly2

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Laser Show said:
Finally some delicious Cardinals schadenfreude
 
This is good, but it can't match The Cardinal Way fundamentals shown on the bases by Jeff Suppan in 2004 and Kolten Wong in 2013.
 

Mooch

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This database system is pretty much the entire nerve center of the Astros organization, and everyone in the Cardinals front office knew exactly what they were tapping into. This is an enormous story that absolutely DWARFS any of the Pats stuff:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-16/my-time-with-the-architect-of-the-astros-ground-control-database

The money quote: 
If the Cardinals had access to the Astros’ valuation system, they could obviously do an immense amount to undermine them, from drafting players they desire to undercutting them in trade deals to knowing their game plans ahead of time when the two teams faced off. In terms of corporate espionage, it’s tantamount to stealing the secret formula for Coke. In terms of professional sports, it makes a deflated football look like jaywalking.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Seels said:
I'd love to be outraged by this but have no conceivable idea what the advantage to this would possibly be. Did the Cardinals need help beating the Astros  ?
 
What if the Astros were a top end team, would that change your opinion or is it a joke because it's the Astros?
 
If the Yankees were found to be breaking into Fenway (or an actual successful team's offices) and stealing all their records, would you be more or less offended?
 
Outside of rigging games through officials or blowing them intentionally, I'm not sure what is a worse offense in sports than this. 
 

GBrushTWood

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Gunfighter 09 said:
 Assuming the worst case is true, what is a fair punishment for the franchise that doesn't start a fight with the union?  
 
- Losing an entire draft + additional premium round picks? The picks would have to be redistributed to other teams to ensure the same number of players are drafted.
-A gigantic ($10Mish) fine for the franchise?
-Some sort of salary cap, with the fine amount getting distributed to the Union? 
-A postseason ban?
-Does Houston rate a greater share of the punishment (like draft picks) since they were the most direct victims (though not the only victims) of this nonsense? 
 
Frankly, MLB could levee all five of these penalties, and, once again, assuming worst case, I would think it was reasonable. 
 
I don't see how that question can be answered without more facts. The only facts so far are:
 
1) A shitload of private Astros information was publicly leaked last year (unclear who leaked it)
2) There is evidence to suggest someone(s) associated with the Cardinals accessed the Astros private ERP/business system
3) The FBI is investigating the incident
 
Everything else is speculation at this point. I feel the punishment should fit the crime. It's unclear what exactly the crime really is and who was involved.
 

soxhop411

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“@phampel: Bob Costas tells me outcome of #STLCardinals hacking scandal will be ”relatively benign“ & w/out lasting negative consequences. More to come”
 

soxhop411

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“@phampel: Costas: ”We have no idea where (hacking scandal) will fall but my gut notion is that it’s closer to least damning than most.“ #StlCardinals”
 

Seels

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NortheasternPJ said:
 
What if the Astros were a top end team, would that change your opinion or is it a joke because it's the Astros?
 
If the Yankees were found to be breaking into Fenway (or an actual successful team's offices) and stealing all their records, would you be more or less offended?
 
Outside of rigging games through officials or blowing them intentionally, I'm not sure what is a worse offense in sports than this. 
I don't know, I mean it's hacking. I can see why it's important to do something about it...but...like the stuff on the field still needs to happen.
 
Don't get me wrong I'll enjoy seeing an organization that harbored Tony Larussa eat some shit, but I just have some reservations about the actual on field effect of this. The Astros of this era were going to be shitty either way, same with the Cardinals.
 

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soxhop411 said:
“@phampel: Bob Costas tells me outcome of #STLCardinals hacking scandal will be ”relatively benign“ & w/out lasting negative consequences. More to come”
 
 
 

Ed Hillel

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Fucking Costas. The stuff that was leaked is already 100 times worse than what the Pats are accused of in Deflategate.
 

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natpastime162 said:
They had a master list of every password he used during his 8 years with the Cardinals.  That could be 1-3 passwords or 400.  I guess I'm not paranoid enough if this is how I should always act when creating new passwords. I still try to use different alphanumeric and special character passwords each time (probably some overlap), but it looks more and more like password security is an illusion.  Just cold comfort to help people sleep at night.
 
 

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Seels said:
I don't know, I mean it's hacking. I can see why it's important to do something about it...but...like the stuff on the field still needs to happen.
 
Don't get me wrong I'll enjoy seeing an organization that harbored Tony Larussa eat some shit, but I just have some reservations about the actual on field effect of this. The Astros of this era were going to be shitty either way, same with the Cardinals.
 
Isn't this in effect saying that front offices don't matter? Sure, the Astros were going to be shitty, but knowing what their front office is doing and what other offers are being made out there could change the trades that get made, and could change therefore the future state of the Astros and Cardinals.
 

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ivanvamp said:
I honestly don't think it will end up creating a furor.  I think any media or national venting and rage will be directed at the front office and ownership, and I don't think anyone really will say that somehow Michael Wacha isn't as good as he really is because of these hacks.  
 
This will definitely taint Michael Wacha's legacy....The only thing we can be sure of is that the Cardinals hack the right way....I can't wait to see the next installment of Hackgate.....massive sarcasm alert. 
 

DJnVa

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soxhop411 said:
“@phampel: Bob Costas tells me outcome of #STLCardinals hacking scandal will be ”relatively benign“ & w/out lasting negative consequences. More to come”
 
Bob, stop reading Sharks of Vegas.
 

E5 Yaz

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Deadspin examines the legal angle
Any Cardinals employee involved in the alleged hacking could up to five years imprisonment, along with monetary fines potentially reaching into the hundreds of thousands of dollars per offenseGiven the fact that the alleged super genius hackers did so in their own house, with a very traceable IP address, they could be looking at enormous sentences.
 
http://www.atlredline.com/st-louis-cardinals-hackers-facing-serious-federal-jail-1711805877


 
 

Bigpupp

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How many offenses would they be looking at facing? If they only logged in once, would they be looking at one offense or one for each page (or file) they accessed?

Also, if they were able to gain access to medical records, could they be also looking at HIPPA violations from this?
 

NortheasternPJ

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Bigpupp said:
How many offenses would they be looking at facing? If they only logged in once, would they be looking at one offense or one for each page (or file) they accessed?

Also, if they were able to gain access to medical records, could they be also looking at HIPPA violations from this?
 
HIPAA (not HIPPA) only covers the organization holding the records, doesn't have any impact on the ones doing the hacking, other laws take care of them. The Astros could be facing HIPAA violations though depending on the situation and what they have implemented. It's a stretch though. 
 

finnVT

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Naive legal question.... given MLB's organizational structure, anti-trust exemption, etc, would this really be treated like corporate espionage, or is the better analogy one branch of a company hacking another (within the same company, i.e., MLB)?  
 

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finnVT said:
Naive legal question.... given MLB's organizational structure, anti-trust exemption, etc, would this really be treated like corporate espionage, or is the better analogy one branch of a company hacking another (within the same company, i.e., MLB)?  
The clubs are separate entities. So, no different from McDougal's "hacking" (if you can call it that) into McDonald's proprietary recipe database.
 

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How long before Cafardo downplays this because it's just, you know, data.  Stuff is useless.  Baseball is evaluated with the eyes, not with Excel spreadsheets.
 
But if it gave the Cards an advantage on defensive shifts... BRING DOWN THE HAMMER OF THOR!
 

Rovin Romine

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Bigpupp said:
How many offenses would they be looking at facing? If they only logged in once, would they be looking at one offense or one for each page (or file) they accessed?

Also, if they were able to gain access to medical records, could they be also looking at HIPPA violations from this?
 
Good question.  There's probably a few cases out there on this.  
 
As a thumbnail sketch - basically it's a crime to access anything of value, and it's a separate crime to access if damage results from the access.  Here, it seems a given that proprietary information was taken without permission.  So it's only a question of who did the taking, how the taking occurred, and what was done with the stuff that was taken. 
 
The level of organizational involvement is going to be the real driver here, I believe.  I'm also pretty sure that there's going to be an electronic trail to follow.  If this really was done by hypothetical low level $50K guys on their off hours, it's a fair bet they'll roll.  If those hypothetical low level guys forwarded that information up the organizational chain, their attorneys will probably try to cut deals for them based on their cooperation.  If the Cardinals *used* any of the data in any way, they're very likely screwed.  If they went back for more data at any point after they used any initial data they obtained, they're 100% screwed. 
 
The Cards may have something of a defense if they didn't use the data in any way, or didn't harm the Astros directly, but I think it's a fairly easy argument to make that harm occurred.  The Cards, as an entity, can't "unknow" the data.  The Cards compete directly with the Astros for a limited number of FAs, Draftees, etc. 
 
I'd guess their only real hope would be that the Astros also did something that wasn't kosher and they don't really want that coming out either. 
 

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Dick Pole Upside said:
How long before Cafardo downplays this because it's just, you know, data.  Stuff is useless.  Baseball is evaluated with the eyes, not with Excel spreadsheets.
 
But if it gave the Cards an advantage on defensive shifts... BRING DOWN THE HAMMER OF THOR!
"We'd like to think that what the Cardinals did is worse than the Patriots,that it compromised the integrity of the game. But did it? Does information in a computer affect the outcome of a baseball game? Did the Cardinals win games because of it? Who knows. One former AL East GM said that he "doesn't think so.""
 

DJnVa

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Laser Show said:
"We'd like to think that what the Cardinals did is worse than the Patriots,that it compromised the integrity of the game. But did it? Does information in a computer affect the outcome of a baseball game? Did the Cardinals win games because of it? Who knows. One former AL East GM said that he "doesn't think so.""
 
This is the enlightened thinking running front offices today.
 

Rovin Romine

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Laser Show said:
"We'd like to think that what the Cardinals did is worse than the Patriots,that it compromised the integrity of the game. But did it? Does information in a computer affect the outcome of a baseball game? Did the Cardinals win games because of it? Who knows. One former AL East GM said while frantically deleting emails that he "doesn't think so.""
 

ifmanis5

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johnmd20 said:
Yeah, this is a huge story and it's a major scandal, involving the FBI. The media is going to go crazy on this one.
They won't and they already haven't. Costas is a good example of the reaction. It'll be a meh and moving on.
 

finnVT

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ivanvamp said:
I honestly don't think it will end up creating a furor.  I think any media or national venting and rage will be directed at the front office and ownership, and I don't think anyone really will say that somehow Michael Wacha isn't as good as he really is because of these hacks.  
Wacha was drafted in 2012.  Luhnow left for Houston in Dec, 2011.  This obviously doesn't impact Wacha's own legacy, but what if the Cardinals drafted him based on a scouting report they pulled from the Astros db?  You don't think that would affect the perception of the Cards's success based on their ability to identify talent?