The evolution and evaluation of Jamie Collins

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

The Pats defense is 1st in points but haven't played any good offenses except Pitt's and even then they faced Jones at QB instead of the Rapist. So it's really hard to tell their quality, although in my book leaving Denver with a win and 3 points allowed is a good day for any team.

As for Collins, I haven't watched full Browns games much but from what I saw yesterday he was dogging it pretty good against Buffalo. But they're 0-14 and have nothing else so that's unfair to judge too.

The Patriots schedule has - through no fault of theirs - been astonishingly easy this year. The AFC East did its usual Buster Keaton-esque house collapse around the Patriot foundation (in fairness, the Dolphins have looked good at times, and the Bills have had about 3 games where they have looked like they don't belong in the XFL, but generally, not good), then the Pats got the Steelers without Ben, Denver in the midst of a death spiral, and while the Seahawks played out of their gourds against them, it was a home game.

That doesn't take anything away from what they have done, you win the games on your schedule. But it is interesting given that, at the beginning of the season their schedule looked pretty tough.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Well, I think it's a tad tougher than has been portrayed at times. Getting Pitt with Jones was a break, but playing on the road in Arizona without your starting QB is tough, even if Arizona's been a disappointment this year. Playing in Denver at any time is very difficult. Miami's 9-5, beating them with your backup and then your 3rd-stringer in at QB is impressive. Houston's 8-6 and the Pats shut them out with Brissett (admittedly, Osweiler's terrible, but the team itself isn't trash). Any win against the Ravens is a good one, etc.

The games against LAR, NYJ, SF, CIN, and BUF were all against trash opponents though. And yeah, we're talking about defense so perhaps having Jimmy and Jacoby in at QB isn't germane to the conversation.

 

[Royal Reader]

The Patriots schedule has - through no fault of theirs - been astonishingly easy this year. The AFC East did its usual Buster Keaton-esque house collapse around the Patriot foundation (in fairness, the Dolphins have looked good at times, and the Bills have had about 3 games where they have looked like they don't belong in the XFL, but generally, not good), then the Pats got the Steelers without Ben, Denver in the midst of a death spiral, and while the Seahawks played out of their gourds against them, it was a home game.

That doesn't take anything away from what they have done, you win the games on your schedule. But it is interesting given that, at the beginning of the season their schedule looked pretty tough.

There are what, three good (as in arguably top 10) non-Brady QBs in the AFC? Two of them weren't on the slate (and one of those won't make the postseason) and the one who was missed the game through injury. Seems like the worst QB on the NFC side who's still alive is Cousins.

Oakland seems like the biggest threat because they've got an above average QB and a good pass rush. Not sure there's anyone pre SB where both Brady and the defense playing an average game for them should be enough, though.

 

[EricFeczko]

When measured by points allowed the Pats' defense has pretty consistently outperformed its DVOA ratings; I'm sure in part this results from defense and special teams but the bend but don't break philsophy--which will lead to a lot of plays that are successful per DVOA--is a culprit.

Actually, it has more to do with a low turnover rate per drive. The patriots rank towards the bottom of the league in turnover rate per drive. The patriots have been good at limiting opponent scoring but have not benefited from many turnovers.
DVOA tends to rate turnovers more highly compared to EP, where the patriots are in the top ten.

 

[MainerInExile]

I think when the trade was made, we thought about Elandon Roberts too much and not enough about Shea McClellin and Van Noy. Roberts seems to be a running-game-only LB, so while he has his place, McClellin and Van Noy are playing a lot, and playing well. And they're talented guys, who have good measurables. I guess I'm saying the freaking out was overdone from the start, because of the "replacing him with a rookie 6th-rounder" stuff.

 

[RedOctober3829]

#Browns Jamie Collins, set to be a free agent, said the losing is a factor but likes his teammates and he'll stay if the money is right

 

[ifmanis5]

#Browns Jamie Collins, set to be a free agent, said the losing is a factor but likes his teammates and he'll stay if the money is right

What a complete loser. Playing your way off the perennial SB contender to play in Cleveland if 'the money is right.' No wonder he's gone.

 

[soxhop411]

#Browns Jamie Collins, set to be a free agent, said the losing is a factor but likes his teammates and he'll stay if the money is right

Of course he would stay if the money is right. It's all about the $$$$$$ for most players.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

As it should be.

 

[CantKeepmedown]

Of course he would stay if the money is right. It's all about the $$$$$$ for most players.

Be interesting to see, if you took a poll of players, what the responses would be.

A. 15M guaranteed and your team will be in the playoffs on a regular basis. 9-11 wins a year.

B 30M guaranteed and your team will rarely, if ever even contend. You'll average 4-6 wins a year.

I assume 90+% of players would take option B? More? Less?

Obviously both options are life changing money. I guess it depends how long your career is going to be. I suppose anyone could take 3-5 years of losing for that amount of money.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

As it should be.

Yeah, I have never understood anyone who thinks that this should not be priority 1, 1a and 1b for a football player.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Be interesting to see, if you took a poll of players, what the responses would be.

A. 15M guaranteed and your team will be in the playoffs on a regular basis. 9-11 wins a year.

B 30M guaranteed and your team will rarely, if ever even contend. You'll average 4-6 wins a year.

I assume 90+% of players would take option B? More? Less?

Obviously both options are life changing money. I guess it depends how long your career is going to be. I suppose anyone could take 3-5 years of losing for that amount of money.

The average career in the NFL is less than 5 years. It is a sport that regularly grinds talented humans in and out and a career can be flourishing at 2:46 on a Sunday and over at 2:47 the same day.

It's entertainment and yes, every player talks about how awesome the culture is in the place they just signed, and how they want to win, but at the end of the day these guys work their asses off to put food on the table and the "I love it here!!!" message is as hollow in Foxboro as it is in San Diego, Philadelphia, Miami, or wherever else the check gets signed. Junior Seau going to the Patriots once he had made his money and wanted a shot at a ring made sense, his tradeoff was small. But expecting guys like Malcolm Butler or Richard Sherman to take hometown discounts because you like their team a lot is irrational.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Any player who would willingly sacrifice $15M guaranteed just to be a "winner" is a moron. You have to get your money while you can in this league.

 

[DJnVa]

The Pats defense is 1st in points but haven't played any good offenses except Pitt's and even then they faced Jones at QB instead of the Rapist. So it's really hard to tell their quality, although in my book leaving Denver with a win and 3 points allowed is a good day for any team.

This is true of course. But the worst offense in the NFL this year has scored 218 points (the Rams) and #2 is Cleveland at 240. The Pats have allowed 236. So while the schedule was easy, it was Rams/Browns every week easy, and they essentially allowed as many points as those 2 doormats scored.

On average, they've turned every team they played into the scoring offense of the Cleveland Browns.

 

[DJnVa]

Any player who would willingly sacrifice $15M guaranteed just to be a "winner" is a moron. You have to get your money while you can in this league.

No problem with what he said, but it seems that would be something that's better left unsaid, because "hot takez!!!!"

 

[Al Zarilla]

This is true of course. But the worst offense in the NFL this year has scored 218 points (the Rams) and #2 is Cleveland at 240. The Pats have allowed 236. So while the schedule was easy, it wasn't Rams/Browns every week easy, and they essentially allowed as many points as those 2 doormats scored.

On average, they've turned every team they played into the scoring offense of the Cleveland Browns.

Waren't that shoulda been a wasn't there?

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Be interesting to see, if you took a poll of players, what the responses would be.

A. 15M guaranteed and your team will be in the playoffs on a regular basis. 9-11 wins a year.

B 30M guaranteed and your team will rarely, if ever even contend. You'll average 4-6 wins a year.

I assume 90+% of players would take option B? More? Less?

Obviously both options are life changing money. I guess it depends how long your career is going to be. I suppose anyone could take 3-5 years of losing for that amount of money.

I think the only guys who pick A are guys who already made their money on rookie deals/1st FA contract. If you've put enough away, you can afford to care how thet team is doing---but it's nuts to assume other guys who haven't yet hit that payday ascribe a great deal of value to winning.

 

[ifmanis5]

A player is also his brand.

What's Collins' worth both now and after he is done playing by being paid in Cleveland versus possibly being a Super Bowl MVP or a star player on a team that is always shown in prime time? How many endorsement deals, covers of magazines or media gigs will he get by staying in Cleveland? Not saying he's guaranteed all those things with the Pats but it's part of the equation that has value, too. Does Bruschi or Harrison get those TV gigs by taking the money and playing with some generic team? Players should also be thinking about their long term goals and revenue possibilities.

 

[Marciano490]

A player is also his brand.

What's Collins' worth both now and after he is done playing by being paid in Cleveland versus possibly being a Super Bowl MVP or a star player on a team that is always shown in prime time? How many endorsement deals, covers of magazines or media gigs will he get by staying in Cleveland? Not saying he's guaranteed all those things with the Pats but it's part of the equation that has value, too. Does Bruschi or Harrison get those TV gigs by taking the money and playing with some generic team? Players should also be thinking about their long term goals and revenue possibilities.

Have you heard my man Jamie talk?

 

[ifmanis5]

Have you heard my man Jamie talk?

I have. I also realize he wants no part of football life or anything else after football. But for a lot of other players it's a huge factor. Also, you don't need to talk to get a shoe deal or a Gatorade spot.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

I have. I also realize he wants no part of football life or anything else after football. But for a lot of other players it's a huge factor. Also, you don't need to talk to get a shoe deal or a Gatorade spot.

Dude. Outside of Brady and Gronkowski there really hasn't been a ton of Patriots cashing big checks on endorsement deals on the national stage over the past 15 seasons. Collins and players like Collins are as likely or possibly more likely to get the local tv and radio ads being big fish in small pond as they are having stood on the podium.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

I am still bitter that I never got the chance to buy Dan Koppen isotoners.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Dude. Outside of Brady and Gronkowski there really hasn't been a ton of Patriots cashing big checks on endorsement deals on the national stage over the past 15 seasons. Collins and players like Collins are as likely or possibly more likely to get the local tv and radio ads being big fish in small pond as they are having stood on the podium.

Yeah I was stunned when I saw a Jerod Mayo ad for Old Spice. Didn't think anyone outside New England knew who he was.

Even if potential endorsement deals should be factored in, unless you're a Brady/Gronk level superstar the value of them is marginal.

 

[DJnVa]

Malcolm Butler is in a new Papa John's spot with Antonio Brown.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Malcolm Butler is in a new Papa John's spot with Antonio Brown.

It's pretty good too

 

[bradmahn]

Malcolm Butler is in a new Papa John's spot with Antonio Brown.

And Wes Welker (SK energy drink), Julian Edelman (Puma), and Danny Amendola (Gillette) have all had national endorsement deals, too.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

And Wes Welker (SK energy drink), Julian Edelman (Puma), and Danny Amendola (Gillette) have all had national endorsement deals, too.

I have seen none of those guys endorsing any of those products on my tv or radio. Regional ads.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Then you missed them.

Amendola had an ad campaign series for Gillette Fusion, print and TV, with Clay Matthews and Victor Cruz (amongst others ). https://www.ispot.tv/ad/7bGX/gillette-fusion-proglide-high-tech-gear

Edelman also did a national campaign for Puma (http://nep.247sports.com/Bolt/Julian-Edelman-stars-in-new-PUMA-commercial-38533312) and is featured on their website along with Usain Bolt, Arsenal FC, etc (fucking Rihanna?) http://us.puma.com/en_US/sports/sports/training/edelman.

I dont know wtf SK energy drinks are, but Welker had a national ad for Depends (of all things), with Demarcus Ware and Clay Matthews.
Those aren't regional.

 

[Marciano490]

Hmm look at all those good looking white dudes getting national ads. I like Jamie's chances!

 

[amarshal2]

I have seen none of those guys endorsing any of those products on my tv or radio. Regional ads.

Welder did a Depends national ad. The butler one is national too.

Edit: and I've seen Edelman for puma a bunch but it's possible that wasn't on tv out here that I saw it. I think it was though

 

[amarshal2]

Hmm look at all those good looking white dudes getting national ads. I like Jamie's chances!

There's definitely a white guy bias but there's also a wide receiver bias. Julian keeps facial hair which is tough for Gillette and Jordy would have exceeded the white Packers player quota filled by Clay.

Danny Amendola come on down!

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Then you missed them.

Amendola had an ad campaign series for Gillette Fusion, print and TV, with Clay Matthews and Victor Cruz (amongst others ). https://www.ispot.tv/ad/7bGX/gillette-fusion-proglide-high-tech-gear

Edelman also did a national campaign for Puma (http://nep.247sports.com/Bolt/Julian-Edelman-stars-in-new-PUMA-commercial-38533312) and is featured on their website along with Usain Bolt, Arsenal FC, etc (fucking Rihanna?) http://us.puma.com/en_US/sports/sports/training/edelman.

I dont know wtf SK energy drinks are, but Welker had a national ad for Depends (of all things), with Demarcus Ware and Clay Matthews.
Those aren't regional.

Ummmmm......,,with the exception of Edelman's "Patriot website" Puma bit, all of those ads were ensemble ads where the Patriot cited were at best second, at worst fourth tier guys...,,,,usually behind Clay Matthews. I am going to hold to my point that these aren't bringing in "I'm changing my mind about which franchise I'm going to" money.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Is Vince Wilfork in a brief bit in those Dr. Pepper ads?

 

[pappymojo]

Depends could have a wonderful advertisement featuring Jamie Collins in a Browns uniform.

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

Any player who would willingly sacrifice $15M guaranteed just to be a "winner" is a moron. You have to get your money while you can in this league.

Shhhh....don't let this guy near Tom Brady!

 

[Ed Hillel]

I don't think I'd hire Jamie Collins to shill my products. Guy doesn't exactly exude excitement:

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

Depends could have a wonderful advertisement featuring Jamie Collins in a Browns uniform.

Malcom Brown wouldn't do a shitty job in that role.

 

[bradmahn]

I have seen none of those guys endorsing any of those products on my tv or radio. Regional ads.

I live in CA and I've seen their ads here (Welker's on a billboard, no less).

 

[Curt S Loew]

Is Vince Wilfork in a brief bit in those Dr. Pepper ads?

Yes. And he does the Castrol ad that's on ALL the time.


Interesting that I've seen more of Vince on TV since he's been a Texan than when he was a Patriot.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Shhhh....don't let this guy near Tom Brady!

Ha, cute.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

Depends could have a wonderful advertisement featuring Jamie Collins in a Browns uniform.

Spot opens with..."Ever wonder what happens when an NFL Pro-Bowler shits the bed"

 

[ifmanis5]

‘Get That Money, Girl’ is about as Hot Take-y as it gets.
Your salary is old thinking. Your brand is new thinking.
Brands have far more potential value.
Your salary has a short window. Your brand is a lifetime.
Your salary is literally capped by the league and kept artificially low. Your brand is limitless and can be sold repeatedly on open markets for whatever amounts you are savvy enough to leverage.
Your salary is an entryway to eyeballs. You brand cashes in on your worth.
The money you make from salary during your playing years should be dwarfed by the money you earn as spinoffs into auxiliary marketing fees and licenses into perpetuity; or for other career opportunities that may hold more value than just strictly income.
The value of your brand and longterm financial opportunities should be the true goal of every player in the league, regardless of position.
Salaries are for suckers, brands are for wealth. Even the Kardashians know this. Every player in professional sports should be thinking about longterm worth over salaries.

 

[InstaFace]

That's true for, at best, the top 10% of players in the league. The vast majority are fungible and never acquire anything resembling a brand, not for lack of creativity or good advice but for lack of opportunity.

 

[allstonite]

Yeah Jamie Collins was never going to become a "brand" unless maybe he was a perpetual DPOY candidate and even then there's already JJ Watt who is basically a marketers wet dream.

In the NFL it should be 100% about getting as much as possible and getting out as healthy as you can because a) injury and quality of life history and b) fuck the owners

 

[BigSoxFan]

‘Get That Money, Girl’ is about as Hot Take-y as it gets.
Your salary is old thinking. Your brand is new thinking.
Brands have far more potential value.
Your salary has a short window. Your brand is a lifetime.
Your salary is literally capped by the league and kept artificially low. Your brand is limitless and can be sold repeatedly on open markets for whatever amounts you are savvy enough to leverage.
Your salary is an entryway to eyeballs. You brand cashes in on your worth.
The money you make from salary during your playing years should be dwarfed by the money you earn as spinoffs into auxiliary marketing fees and licenses into perpetuity; or for other career opportunities that may hold more value than just strictly income.
The value of your brand and longterm financial opportunities should be the true goal of every player in the league, regardless of position.
Salaries are for suckers, brands are for wealth. Even the Kardashians know this. Every player in professional sports should be thinking about longterm worth over salaries.

This is simply just not true for the overwhelming majority of NFL players and it's not "hot takey" at all. Sure - Brady can sacrifice salary but what about a guy like Hightower? Should he give up 10-15M in guaranteed money for the opportunity to play with the Patriots? How does he get that back after he's done?

 

[Old Fart Tree]

Yeah, it's a ridiculous comment.

 

[Zedia]

I just saw Stephen Gostowski in a national Pespi commercial. What the hell?

 

[soxhop411]

I just saw Stephen Gostowski in a national Pespi commercial. What the hell?

 

[McBride11]

Ya, Ghost, Edelman, Brady, Butler all in national ads (Ive seen in Pitt and Sea). Others in the past. I think BB preventing marketing deals is pretty overblown. Do your job.

 

[bakahump]

UPS has failed to utilize the various Browns in Football.

"Antonio imagine Tearing threw a secondary, maybe a spin and a stiff arm, arriving in the end zone and giving a cute kid in glasses the football with a "A special delivery for Max!" Cue Voice over about UPS......finally fade out with Antonio saying "What Can Brown do for YOU!""

"Malcolm follow me here .....slow motion of you using a rip move to seperate and get through the Double team. The QB Tries to avoid him but you grab him and bring him down with a perfect form tackle. As you get up you say "UPS Ground Baby! WHOOOO!" Voiceover about UPS Dependability....finally fade out with you in our three Point....maybe We can see your breath in the cold air and you looking intensively at the camera saying "WHAT CAN BROWN DO FOR YOU!"

"Josh...imagine you didnt beat your wife....."