The Game Goat Thread: Wk 4 vs Panthers

Bergs

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I don't necessarily disagree but when the infraction is very minor and the guy still comes out of his break fine, where do you draw the line? You could call illegal contact on at least 1/2 the pass plays in the NFL.
It would be one thing if the WR fell down or stopped running but his head moved (no review ever showed if it was embellished or not) and he stayed right in stride. Gronk gets more contact on at least 1/2 his routes run and gets a call roughly 3% of the time.
This is a nuanced position that perfectly encapsulates most fans' expectations of NFL officiating.
 

H78

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I don't necessarily disagree but when the infraction is very minor and the guy still comes out of his break fine, where do you draw the line? You could call illegal contact on at least 1/2 the pass plays in the NFL.
It would be one thing if the WR fell down or stopped running but his head moved (no review ever showed if it was embellished or not) and he stayed right in stride. Gronk gets more contact on at least 1/2 his routes run and gets a call roughly 3% of the time.
This, I think, is a fair counter-argument. Because he does, and my guess as to why the refs let it slide is they try to give the defense some leeway to cover such a massive, athletic guy. But if they are indeed doing that, they should be consistent about calling it on both sides because officiating shouldn't be treated as some kind of "size equalizer."

But speaking strictly of what is and what isn't an infraction, hitting a guy in the head is against the rules, and a particular point of interest to the league due to lawsuits presented to them by the players. So when they get ticky-tacky about headshots, it's hard to blame them. I mean all of us - virtually everyone that posts in BBTL - has at some point in time skewered the league regarding their varying levels of ineptitude when it comes to managing concussions and player safety. So when they turn around and actually do something to help mitigate the number of headshots in the game, it feels wrong and pretty hypocritical to sit back and lay into them for doing so.

They have concerns regarding an issue (brain injuries) that's of far greater importance than the outcome of any one football game, and both the players and most fans have been the driving force behind getting the league to address those issues (by doing things like enforcing penalties against headshots). It's hard - at least for me - to get upset with the league for enforcing rules that involve protecting players. We demanded it. They're responding. It is what it is.
 

E5 Yaz

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Everyone losing their mind about Gilmore should at least be comforted by the fact that he is being accountable:

Mike Reiss ESPN Staff Writer
Stephon Gilmore on his playing style: "I'm going to keep playing aggressive. Refs are going to call it sometimes. Sometimes they're not."
 

H78

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Mike Reiss ESPN Staff Writer
Stephon Gilmore on his playing style: "I'm going to keep playing aggressive. Refs are going to call it sometimes. Sometimes they're not."
Why would Gilmore put that out there?

He's basically daring the league to keep calling it. Come on man, just say you screwed up and shut your mouth.
 

DJnVa

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It's what the Seahawks said for years. That on the whole they get away with it more than they get called.

I hope it's just communication and we look back at this late in the year and laugh.
 

E5 Yaz

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Why would Gilmore put that out there?

He's basically daring the league to keep calling it. Come on man, just say you screwed up and shut your mouth.
Agreed. It's a really stupid thing to say
 

twibnotes

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What Gilmore says in interviews is pretty far down the growing list of concerns
 

soxin6

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The entire secondary was bad. There were supposedly going to be elite and they have been putrid.
Allen is not a good punter and they need a replacement
 

BaseballJones

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Yes. The receiver's head nearly snapped off his shoulders.
Oh stop. That's such an exaggeration. His head moved some but it was for about a half second. Should it have been a penalty? Eh.... questionable. I'll say yes but we all know that kind of thing very often doesn't get called.

Was his "head nearly snapped off his shoulders"? Uh.... no. Not remotely close to being egregious.

Maybe you were posting that in jest. I hope so.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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No. I'm just saying that "calls away from the action shouldn't be called" is stupid as a general rule.
I don't see why it's not something that the rules committee- who tinker the rules every single off-season- couldn't take a look at and distinguish between hands to the face in the trenches or at the point of attack and hands to the face like Gilmore's that were off the ball and didn't impede the play. They already distinguish between running into and roughing the punter, there used to be major and minor facemasking (for better or worse). They also have points of emphasis every year, so as much as you can say all rules anywhere on the field need to be enforced equally, that's not how it works in practice. (Hands to the face was just called in the Philly v. Chargers game. Nose tackle shoved the center's head and neck back with great force. That shouldn't be the same penalty as Gilmore tickling Funchess' chin strap. It just shouldn't be.)

Someone mention in the game thread that maybe this was something in pre-game that Rivera may have brought up with the refs. I bet a close look at Gilmore's game tape would show him to be a habitual hands to the face guy. Funchess was nodding his head before the second flag even hit the ground as if he was saying "Got'em". His post-game quotes don't really show a guy who's going to change his ways anytime soon.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Anyone watching that game knows the Patriots defense was atrocious, and has been all year. This is not a novel position. However, not also acknowledging the roles the refs played in the outcome of this game is basically ignoring a huge part of what happened, so I fail to understand the "don't blame the refs" sentiment. The D sucked, but they did enough to win this game, and had two drives kept alive on calls that are made maybe 10% of the time they happen on the field, and then they gave Carolina an extra 5 yards, and a first down to run 3 more plays and get even closer, for their game winning field goal.

I said it in the game thread, and I'll say it here. I don't care about the calls made against the Patriots. I care about the non-calls made the other way. If the "rules are the rules" and we just have to accept that, then why is Devin Funchess allowed to put two hands into the chest of a defender and extend his arms while he pushes him, but Gronk and Amendola can't make any contact with a defender without getting hit with OPI? On Russell Sheperd's one catch of the game, it looked like there were 3 Panthers in the same area colliding with each other to make the catch. He was one of them. The other two were offensive lineman. The play was 5-6 yards down the field. Where was the ineligible receiver call? The Panthers got called for one fucking penalty today. ONE. And it was the defensive pass interference on Gronk that they basically called because they absolutely had to, or the house would have come down. You mean to tell me that not one Patriot pass rusher got held? Not one Panther had his hands find their way into the facemask of a Patriot? You mean to tell me they didn't false start at least once? None of that happened?

If bullshit ticky tack calls that decide games are something we have to swallow, then I want everyone to have to swallow them. And it just doesn't feel like that happens when it comes to Patriots games.
 

heavyde050

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Anyone watching that game knows the Patriots defense was atrocious, and has been all year. This is not a novel position. However, not also acknowledging the roles the refs played in the outcome of this game is basically ignoring a huge part of what happened, so I fail to understand the "don't blame the refs" sentiment. The D sucked, but they did enough to win this game, and had two drives kept alive on calls that are made maybe 10% of the time they happen on the field, and then they gave Carolina an extra 5 yards, and a first down to run 3 more plays and get even closer, for their game winning field goal.

I said it in the game thread, and I'll say it here. I don't care about the calls made against the Patriots. I care about the non-calls made the other way. If the "rules are the rules" and we just have to accept that, then why is Devin Funchess allowed to put two hands into the chest of a defender and extend his arms while he pushes him, but Gronk and Amendola can't make any contact with a defender without getting hit with OPI? On Russell Sheperd's one catch of the game, it looked like there were 3 Panthers in the same area colliding with each other to make the catch. He was one of them. The other two were offensive lineman. The play was 5-6 yards down the field. Where was the ineligible receiver call? The Panthers got called for one fucking penalty today. ONE. And it was the defensive pass interference on Gronk that they basically called because they absolutely had to, or the house would have come down. You mean to tell me that not one Patriot pass rusher got held? Not one Panther had his hands find their way into the facemask of a Patriot? You mean to tell me they didn't false start at least once? None of that happened?

If bullshit ticky tack calls that decide games are something we have to swallow, then I want everyone to have to swallow them. And it just doesn't feel like that happens when it comes to Patriots games.
Very well articulated. Even though the defense was very bad, they did enough to at least get Brady an opportunity to try and drive the offense down the field for the winning score.
I am also mostly upset with the inconsistency in the officiating (it is a league wide issue). I am glad you pointed out the physicality of Funchess that went uncalled, but the Pats players can't breath on a defender without a flag.
It reminds me so much of Peyton Manning in Denver when his receivers ran picks it was just great routes, but when the Pats did it, it was getting away with something.
 
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Very bizarre stuff. Collingsworth, before the first game of the season, was on air telling everyone how scary it was but NE was actually better than last year's Super Bowl team. I got to admit, I kind of bought into it.

To me the last two games have shown something that has always been a bug in the defensive system, an inability to contain rushing QBs. That said, Cam looked horrendous to start the season. NE's D is terrible so far this year.
 

Garshaparra

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Goat for this game, and this season, is the front office - Belichick and company.

As constructed, the team is turning every game into a coin flip. (#1 offense + #32 defense) / 2 = average team. Front office mistakes in drafting, free agency and resigns have left the team with significant holes. To their credit, they've partially patched holes via trades, but when you're looking at two straight years of bad drafts, there's only so much coachin' up they can do with other teams' castoffs.

2015 landed them four starters: Malcom Brown, Trey Flowers, Shaq Mason and Malcolm Butler.
2016 landed them one starter: Joe Thuney
2017 landed them no starters, though they'll get Brandin Cooks for 2 years by trading their 1st round pick, so maybe call that .5 starters?

That's a pretty terrible track record.

I do believe they'll beat NYJ and MIA twice, and can beat BUF once. I expect they'll go 2-4 against the rest of the field (wins vs. LAC/TB. losses vs. PIT/OAK/DEN/ATL). 9-7, most likely looking at a wild card rather than the division crown.
 

BaseballJones

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Pats will figure a lot of this out and finish 11-5 with the #4 seed or 12-4 with the #2 seed. And by then they will be playing well enough that they'll be a team nobody wants to face in the playoffs.

Do not despair, Pats Nation.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Brady and BB are too good not to right this, but it will take time. If they can stay relatively healthy could be similar to 2005 where everything was coming together before Champ Bailey
 

H78

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Oh man, 9-7 feels too low. They'll fix the secondary; maybe not to the point that they actually realize their potential, but likely into a formidable unit. Even if that means sitting Gilmore and signing someone off the street (Revis?).

I see more of an 11-5 team (maybe 12-4 if Gilmore finally graduates from the playbook), at worse 10-6, that wins the division but doesn't make it past the second round. Buffalo, Miami, and the NYJ will all be 8-8, or worse, teams. Then, maybe they get a Denver or Tennessee or Miami or something at home and squeeze by, but as they stand today, they'd probably get crushed in KC or Pittsburgh.

But the fact that it's only Week 4 is the good thing about the NFL; what you see today, among contenders, is rarely what you see by Week 17. Let's hope they can shake this off and still squeeze into a two seed or something.

It appears there's no real dominant team in the NFL this year, in either conference. KC is probably the closest thing we've seen to one, but they still feel like a team that can be slowed down offensively and be exposed in the passing game defensively.

Whoever wins SB52 won't be one of the all-time great teams, so it's too soon to count the Patriots out just yet.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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That's a pretty terrible track record.
You're cherry picking. Several starter quality guys from last year's draft are injured. Their top pick from this year is injured. Getting four starters from a draft class is pretty damned good draft. And most importantly the league office concocted a ludicrous story about deflated balls that took away several draft picks.
 

mcpickl

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Goat for this game, and this season, is the front office - Belichick and company.

As constructed, the team is turning every game into a coin flip. (#1 offense + #32 defense) / 2 = average team. Front office mistakes in drafting, free agency and resigns have left the team with significant holes. To their credit, they've partially patched holes via trades, but when you're looking at two straight years of bad drafts, there's only so much coachin' up they can do with other teams' castoffs.

2015 landed them four starters: Malcom Brown, Trey Flowers, Shaq Mason and Malcolm Butler.
2016 landed them one starter: Joe Thuney
2017 landed them no starters, though they'll get Brandin Cooks for 2 years by trading their 1st round pick, so maybe call that .5 starters?

That's a pretty terrible track record.

I do believe they'll beat NYJ and MIA twice, and can beat BUF once. I expect they'll go 2-4 against the rest of the field (wins vs. LAC/TB. losses vs. PIT/OAK/DEN/ATL). 9-7, most likely looking at a wild card rather than the division crown.
Probably could've workshopped this post a bit.

Malcolm Butler was 2014. He played a fairly big role in that Seattle Super Bowl.

Besides maybe factoring in they haven't had a first round pick the last two years, due to the Cooks trade and commissioner theft, it's kinda wild you've already ruled out the young kids of the last two years out as rookies. You've seen enough of Malcolm Mitchell, Vincent Valentine, Jonathan Jones, Derek Rivers, Antonio Garcia, Deatrich Wise Jr., and Adam Butler amongst others to know they can't be NFL starters already?

You must have an incredibly keen eye for evaluating talent.

Also willing to bet you any amount of money they win the division.
 

Garshaparra

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I'll leave the first draft with the Butler error unedited. I screwed up and skipped David Andrews as a starter.

You're cherry picking. Several starter quality guys from last year's draft are injured. Their top pick from this year is injured. Getting four starters from a draft class is pretty damned good draft. And most importantly the league office concocted a ludicrous story about deflated balls that took away several draft picks.
I wondered if I was cherrypicking, but no, I don't think I am.

2016: Malcolm Mitchell, Ted Karras, Vincent Valentine - not a starter among them.
2017: Wise has become the 3rd down rushing back, but he's it.

And yes, I absolutely submit that Deflategate lost the team two key draft picks, but Goodell didn't make Belichick draft so many 2nd round busts, almost all in the secondary.
 

DJnVa

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Malcolm Mitchell was a contributor to a Super Bowl winning team, and exactly how many draft choices for 2017 do you expect to make an impact on what was the best team in the league coming in?
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Pro-football-reference has V Valentine as the starter for two games last year. I don't think it's really a stretch to say that he could be starting over the JAGs filling up space at the DT position now.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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Probably could've workshopped this post a bit.

Malcolm Butler was 2014. He played a fairly big role in that Seattle Super Bowl.

Besides maybe factoring in they haven't had a first round pick the last two years, due to the Cooks trade and commissioner theft, it's kinda wild you've already ruled out the young kids of the last two years out as rookies. You've seen enough of Malcolm Mitchell, Vincent Valentine, Jonathan Jones, Derek Rivers, Antonio Garcia, Deatrich Wise Jr., and Adam Butler amongst others to know they can't be NFL starters already?

You must have an incredibly keen eye for evaluating talent.

Also willing to bet you any amount of money they win the division.
Is your expectation to get more than one or two "starters" per draft? That's wayyyy to optimistic.
 

Van Everyman

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A friend of a friend wrote this:

"Did you see the Duane harmon clip after saying they've already simplified it. Doesn't bode well for gillmore. Also believe there is stiill bad blood in secondary with gillmore signing. They're not a tough tight group like last year. Missing Logan ryan: also something up with McCourty. He's a shell of self."
 

Bongorific

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The communication/simplification isn't just the DBs. I'm seeing the front seven look confused, frazzled, and unsure all way up to the snap more often than I'm used to.
That’s the reason to be somewhat hopeful. It’s not that the secondary is too unskilled to make the close plays. They are instead absolutely BLOWING coverages and giving teams wide open huge plays.

While no guarantee they’ll fix it, it’s easier to fix that than a lack of talent.
 

H78

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McCourty just needs to get the guys together for legs and eggs at the Foxy Lady
 

Super Nomario

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That’s the reason to be somewhat hopeful. It’s not that the secondary is too unskilled to make the close plays. They are instead absolutely BLOWING coverages and giving teams wide open huge plays.

While no guarantee they’ll fix it, it’s easier to fix that than a lack of talent.
Honestly, it is kind of both. They obviously had the couple drives where they had coverage breakdowns and let a guy wide open, but it's not like they were all that effective in the drives where they actually covered people.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Patricia needs to be better. Poor execution happens. This game and the Kansas City game seemed to have a team not prepared. Specifically, they were thinking too much and not recognizing offenses so we're confused about their assignments based on the reads. By the time they got their reads right, the balls had already been snapped. This was not the Panthers exploiting matchups or being tricky repeatedly. There was some of that, but not all of it. This was guys failing basic football 101. If the scheme is too complicated for them, make it simpler until they have it. Straight defensive schemes get exploited by good players but they don't get beat because they don't know where to stand. That is first practice week stuff. This can't get much worse and Patricia's job is to put these guys in position to make plays. Make it a little more vanilla and let someone make an athletic play.

I'm also really disappointed by how unprepared they seemed for a mobile QB despite having one last week too. Part of that is that when the dam is leaking elsewhere you only have so much you can stop.

On the refs, after reading everything, I think bambino has it right. The question for me is not so much where on the field the penalties occurred but disbelief that, given the low tolerance standard that seemed in play, the Panthers really played penalty free football (other than the one PI).
 

BigSoxFan

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Goats

1) Gilmore: Big FA signing giving the Pats Carl Crawford level production. I’m pretty nervous that this may be an awful contract but we’ll see. The talent is there but will we ever see it? Really wish we had spent that money on Bouye.

2) Rest of the secondary: I mean, what the fuck? When scrubs like Funchess are tearing you a new one, you have completely failed. I’m not smart enough to know what they’re doing wrong but, whatever it is, just fix it already. I miss the days of proper positioning but not looking back for the ball or making plays. This whole “leave guys 15 yards wide open” thing is getting old fast.

3) Running Game: Not really a goat in the spirit of this thread but, if I’m not mistaken, the Pats RBs longest run of the season is Gillislee in Week 1 for 16 yards. Would be nice if these guys could contribute some more big plays. Everything is falling on Brady and the passing game right now, which the RBs are admittedly contributing in.

GOATS

1) Brady: 1400 yards 10 TDs/0 INTs. Nearly engineered yet another comeback but this time didn’t get the opportunity at the end. One of the positives of watching a team with such a putrid defense is that we get to watch this guy sling it all game. Hopefully the OL can protect him all year.

2) WRs: Hogan/Amendola continue to make tons of plays in the passing game. Hogan had a bad drop in the 4th for what should have been a TD but Amendola picked him right up. Cooks could have had another TD as well today.

3) Flowers: Receiving tons of attention from OLs but still making plays. Need someone else to be a consistent playmaker alongside him.
 

Stitch01

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Patricia needs to be better. Poor execution happens. This game and the Kansas City game seemed to have a team not prepared. Specifically, they were thinking too much and not recognizing offenses so we're confused about their assignments based on the reads. By the time they got their reads right, the balls had already been snapped. This was not the Panthers exploiting matchups or being tricky repeatedly. There was some of that, but not all of it. This was guys failing basic football 101. If the scheme is too complicated for them, make it simpler until they have it. Straight defensive schemes get exploited by good players but they don't get beat because they don't know where to stand. That is first practice week stuff. This can't get much worse and Patricia's job is to put these guys in position to make plays. Make it a little more vanilla and let someone make an athletic play.

I'm also really disappointed by how unprepared they seemed for a mobile QB despite having one last week too. Part of that is that when the dam is leaking elsewhere you only have so much you can stop.

On the refs, after reading everything, I think bambino has it right. The question for me is not so much where on the field the penalties occurred but disbelief that, given the low tolerance standard that seemed in play, the Panthers really played penalty free football (other than the one PI).
Harmon said in the postgame they've already dumbed down the game plan and made it very vanilla. Still can't execute it. That's partly on the coaches too, but they've done what you suggested in your first paragraph.
 

DJnVa

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This is the GOAT thread so....

Brady on pace for:

5600 yards, 40 TDs, 0 INTs.

I mean, I know that won't last, but it might have to this year to get into playoffs.
 

reggiecleveland

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Hard to believe after the KC game that Brady is best part of the team. They are almost 1-3 but he has played well enough to be a bad call away from 3-1.