The Nation's Tears: Volume II

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TheoShmeo

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It really is true about the Colt's organization's bitterness. Polian was on Mike and Mike this morning and the discussion was around the current labor agreement and some of it's issues. The subject of Kirk Cousins comes up and Polian says "He is now being paid more than the best QBs in the game. Guys like Andrew Luck, Derek Carr, Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers, and Eli".

No mention of Brady.
Good. Their tears and irrationality are delicious.

My biggest regret about last Sunday's Sox game -- other than the score -- is that I let some loud MFY fans see how I annoyed I was.

That we can openly see the depth of the ex-Colts' bitterness is a great gift. And it does nothing to lower thinking humans' esteem for Brady and Belichick. To the contrary, the silliness only crystallizes the conclusions.
 

GregHarris

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Luck's int rate is nearly a full point higher than his peers. One of the best in the game?
 

Curt S Loew

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H78

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It really is true about the Colt's organization's bitterness. Polian was on Mike and Mike this morning and the discussion was around the current labor agreement and some of it's issues. The subject of Kirk Cousins comes up and Polian says "He is now being paid more than the best QBs in the game. Guys like Andrew Luck, Derek Carr, Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers, and Eli".

No mention of Brady.
I really don't get how anyone could hate the Jets, Ravens, or Broncos more than the Colts.

The Colts, far and away, no questions asked, are my most hated NFL franchise. Everything from NoiseGate, to "Suck for Luck," to HeatGate, to the stupid dome, to Curtis Painter, to that moronic punt formation two years ago, to Bill Polian softening up the passing game to help his own offense, to Tony Dungy and his holier-than-thou demeanor, to Irsay's "Rated R" Bruce Wayne lifestyle, to Vinatieri's defection, to Peyton Manning's stupid commercials and HGH use, to that fluky Super Bowl win over the hapless Bears, to their godawful location in the state of Indiana, to openly giving up on their attempt at a perfect season because they were afraid of being the second team to go 18-1, to convincing the league to give them a Super Bowl (In Indi-fucking-anapolis!) to their initial and cowardly denial of greasing the skids on Deflategate...

I mean, how can you hate any franchise more than those fucking losers in Indianapolis?
 
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H78

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Seriously - non-Colts and non-Pats fans, when forced to choose, root for that loser franchise over the Patriots?

Every time I see someone root for the Colts over the Patriots that have no loyalty to either team the first thing that comes to mind is "they don't actually pay any attention to what happens in the NFL."
 

Prodigal Sox

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Good. Their tears and irrationality are delicious.

My biggest regret about last Sunday's Sox game -- other than the score -- is that I let some loud MFY fans see how I annoyed I was.

That we can openly see the depth of the ex-Colts' bitterness is a great gift. And it does nothing to lower thinking humans' esteem for Brady and Belichick. To the contrary, the silliness only crystallizes the conclusions.
Oh absolutely. Three years ago it would have pissed me off. Today I just laugh at the ridiculousness of the positions they take. And enjoy the saltiness.
 

InstaFace

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Former Colts management can not get over their hatred of the Pats.

MMQB did an "all time draft" that was 25 rounds of picking the best players ever to build teams along with a 1 round draft for coaches.

Polian was in this draft and had the third pick in the coach round. BB was still on the board and he went with Marv Levy and Tony Dungy (because he could not pick just one) ...

For note, BB was the next pick (by King) before being traded.
You can pretty well defend the selections of Lombardi and Walsh previous to BB. What you can't defend - other than Polian's idiocy - is Paul Brown falling to 10th, behind Noll, Landry, Gibbs, even Coryell. If BB had the first pick I bet you he'd pick Brown.
 

BuellMiller

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You can pretty well defend the selections of Lombardi and Walsh previous to BB. What you can't defend - other than Polian's idiocy - is Paul Brown falling to 10th, behind Noll, Landry, Gibbs, even Coryell. If BB had the first pick I bet you he'd pick Brown.
and that's not even close to the dumbest thing about that draft. (Fouts punting Ray Guy 4th overall, 5 picks before Brady). Also, Fouts taking Jan Stenerud in the 4th round.
And don't even get me started with Turney trading Andre Tippett and a draft pick for a lower pick and a lesser LB (Robert Brazile)
 

Leather

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Seriously - non-Colts and non-Pats fans, when forced to choose, root for that loser franchise over the Patriots?

Every time I see someone root for the Colts over the Patriots that have no loyalty to either team the first thing that comes to mind is "they don't actually pay any attention to what happens in the NFL."
The Colts' bitterness stems from the fact that everything was drawn up for them to be a dynasty from 2001-2010, and they came away with it all with 1 SB win and 1 SB loss. There was no tragic circumstance, in fact things went pretty much according to plan on a micro level; it's just that the Patriots came out of nowhere to rip what the Colts felt was their manifest destiny away and make them look mostly foolish in the process. The story of The Colts in the Manning era is not "How many Super Bowls did they win?", it is "How many times were they able to beat the Patriots?" They were going to be the 1980s 49ers and came away closer to the 1980s Dolphins, instead.

And rather than just admit "Hey, you know, we were good but we were up against possibly the best dynasty of all time", it's easier to just make funny faces and invent your own alternative history based on fantasy. That tact has the added benefit of appeasing the home town fans who would otherwise be asking tough questions like: "So why are we making the same mistakes 15 years later?"
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The Colts are also currently seeing their window with Luck come closer to closing. They figured they had gotten themselves another Manning and that naturally SB wins would follow, but with Luck they've only gone 3-3 in the playoffs, gotten smeared by the Pats twice in the postseason, and have missed the playoffs the last two years while Luck has taken a tremendous beating.

There are a lot of "should haves" at work in Indy these days.
 

Nator

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The Colts' bitterness stems from the fact that everything was drawn up for them to be a dynasty from 2001-2010, and they came away with it all with 1 SB win and 1 SB loss. There was no tragic circumstance, in fact things went pretty much according to plan on a micro level; it's just that the Patriots came out of nowhere to rip what the Colts felt was their manifest destiny away and make them look mostly foolish in the process. The story of The Colts in the Manning era is not "How many Super Bowls did they win?", it is "How many times were they able to beat the Patriots?" They were going to be the 1980s 49ers and came away closer to the 1980s Dolphins, instead.

And rather than just admit "Hey, you know, we were good but we were up against possibly the best dynasty of all time", it's easier to just make funny faces and invent your own alternative history based on fantasy. That tact has the added benefit of appeasing the home town fans who would otherwise be asking tough questions like: "So why are we making the same mistakes 15 years later?"
This pre-ordination of the Colts is what has shaped so much of the NFL media coverage of the Patriots. The Colts were the chosen ones, with the franchise saving 1st round pick legacy QB at the helm running an aesthetically pleasing offense.

In 2001, it was still cool, since the Pats were a feel good story toppling a giant in the Superbowl. There was still time for Manning to fulfill his destiny.

In 2003 & 2004, it stopped being funny. The Patriots disrupted The Colts well choreographed dance routine by repeatedly smashing them in the face with a sack full of hot nickels. The Patriots didn't just disrupt The Colts, they disrupted the professional football industry, and still continue to do so. They could quite possibly be the team of the decade for consecutive decades.
 

BigSoxFan

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Quite possibly? I think the Pats are the team of the last two decades and it's not really close. They made 4 SBs in the 00s and won 3. And the season they lost they went 18-1. In the 2010s (is that what we call it?), they've been to 3 SBs and have won 2. They've had a first round bye in all 7 years and have averaged a 13-3 regular season. Barring injury, this is looking like another 12-14 win season.
 

tims4wins

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Quite possibly? I think the Pats are the team of the last two decades and it's not really close. They made 4 SBs in the 00s and won 3. And the season they lost they went 18-1. In the 2010s (is that what we call it?), they've been to 3 SBs and have won 2. They've had a first round bye in all 7 years and have averaged a 13-3 regular season. Barring injury, this is looking like another 12-14 win season.
I have noted it elsewhere, but if the Pats win the title next year, they will be the first team to win 3 titles since 2000... and also the second team. They would have 6 and no one else would have 3. Insane.
 

loshjott

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Quite possibly? I think the Pats are the team of the last two decades and it's not really close. They made 4 SBs in the 00s and won 3. And the season they lost they went 18-1. In the 2010s (is that what we call it?), they've been to 3 SBs and have won 2. They've had a first round bye in all 7 years and have averaged a 13-3 regular season. Barring injury, this is looking like another 12-14 win season.
Yes, if one of the other winners this decade wins at least 2 of the next 3 they have a case. But even that would depend on the Pats falling off a cliff 2017-19 reg seasons. Of course if, say, Seattle wins the next 3 in a row which would be unprecedented, they'd win the history books.
 

Nator

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Quite possibly? I think the Pats are the team of the last two decades and it's not really close. They made 4 SBs in the 00s and won 3. And the season they lost they went 18-1. In the 2010s (is that what we call it?), they've been to 3 SBs and have won 2. They've had a first round bye in all 7 years and have averaged a 13-3 regular season. Barring injury, this is looking like another 12-14 win season.
The decade is not over, is all I was trying to say. Who knows, maybe the Jaguars win out for the decade.
 

TFP

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I really don't get how anyone could hate the Jets, Ravens, or Broncos more than the Colts.

The Colts, far and away, no questions asked, are my most hated NFL franchise. Everything from NoiseGate, to "Suck for Luck," to HeatGate, to the stupid dome, to Curtis Painter, to that moronic punt formation two years ago, to Bill Polian softening up the passing game to help his own offense, to Tony Dungy and his holier-than-thou demeanor, to Irsay's "Rated R" Bruce Wayne lifestyle, to Vinatieri's defection, to Peyton Manning's stupid commercials and HGH use, to that fluky Super Bowl win over the hapless Bears, to their godawful location in the state of Indiana, to openly giving up on their attempt at a perfect season because they were afraid of being the second team to go 18-1, to convincing the league to give them a Super Bowl (In Indi-fucking-anapolis!) to their initial and cowardly denial of greasing the skids on Deflategate...

I mean, how can you hate any franchise more than those fucking losers in Indianapolis?
Somehow Marvin Harrison literally shooting someone still flies under the radar, even among the most ardent of Colts haters. What a trick that guy pulled convincing everyone he was actually a decent human being.
 

Dollar

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Quite possibly? I think the Pats are the team of the last two decades and it's not really close. They made 4 SBs in the 00s and won 3. And the season they lost they went 18-1. In the 2010s (is that what we call it?), they've been to 3 SBs and have won 2. They've had a first round bye in all 7 years and have averaged a 13-3 regular season. Barring injury, this is looking like another 12-14 win season.
I thought it was obvious that the Pats had already clinched this designation, and for some reason I had misread his post as saying that, were it not for the Patriots, the Colts may have become the team of the decade in consecutive decades. Like, had the Pats not knocked out the Colts in 03, 04, and 07, as well as 2013 and 2014, maybe the Colts could have taken advantage and won a handful of championships. It makes me smile just thinking about it.
 
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loshjott

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I thought it was obvious that the Pats had already clinched this designation, and for some reason I had misread his post as saying that, were it not for the Patriots, the Colts may have become the team of the decade in consecutive decades. Like, had the Pats not knocked out the Colts in 03, 04, and 07, as well as 2013 and 2014, maybe the Colts could have taken advantage and won a handful of championships. It makes me smile just thinking about it.
The Chargers actually knocked off the Colts in the 07 post season divisional round. I mean as bad as 2007 ended - if the defending champion Colts had come to Fox and beaten the undefeated Pats in the AFCCG to get back to the SB a year after that monstrosity in Indy and after the Pats loaded up on offense to win by the new rules - that would have been even worse than Tyree.
 

BuellMiller

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The Chargers actually knocked off the Colts in the 07 post season divisional round. I mean as bad as 2007 ended - if the defending champion Colts had come to Fox and beaten the undefeated Pats in the AFCCG to get back to the SB a year after that monstrosity in Indy and after the Pats loaded up on offense to win by the new rules - that would have been even worse than Tyree.
I like to think that the Colts knew they had no chance, and so they bowed out to get started on vacation early, and avoid the embarrassment of going up against an all time great team. Like the Lakers in 86. So, they really did "beat them," from a certain point of view. </kenobi> (Although, who knows, it's not like the Patriots blew out the Chargers, who were featuring Darth Tomlinson on the bench after three touches (for 6 yards), and Rivers playing with 1 healthy ACL.)
 

BigSoxFan

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I like to think that the Colts knew they had no chance, and so they bowed out to get started on vacation early, and avoid the embarrassment of going up against an all time great team. Like the Lakers in 86. So, they really did "beat them," from a certain point of view. </kenobi> (Although, who knows, it's not like the Patriots blew out the Chargers, who were featuring Darth Tomlinson on the bench after three touches (for 6 yards), and Rivers playing with 1 healthy ACL.)
It took everything the Pats had in the regular season to beat Indy that year. And that was when the Pats were fresh and playing well. Of course, no chance that Indy picks off Brady 3 times in Foxboro. SD's defense did an amazing job that game and held Welker to 7/56 and Moss to 1/18. Faulk was the leading receiver that day at 8/82 because Brady was constantly having to dump it off. The warning signs for the SB were all there.
 

InstaFace

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The Chargers were out for blood, a year after we ended their 14-2, #1-seed season in one of the more startling overachievement moments in the Belichick era (with a big help from Troy Brown). Their level of intensity in the 2007 AFCCG could be anticipated. I'm not sure it portended much about how much better the Giants would be than in 4 weeks prior.
 

BigSoxFan

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The Chargers were out for blood, a year after we ended their 14-2, #1-seed season in one of the more startling overachievement moments in the Belichick era (with a big help from Troy Brown). Their level of intensity in the 2007 AFCCG could be anticipated. I'm not sure it portended much about how much better the Giants would be than in 4 weeks prior.
Huh? It wasn't the level of intensity - every AFCCG game has high intensity - it was the revelation that our OL was showing cracks and that our vaunted passing game was able to be neutralized. In a season where Moss posted a 98/1493/23 regular season line, he posted this in the playoffs:

1/14/0
1/18/0
5/62/1

Not even 100 yards in 3 playoff games. The same issues that we had in Foxboro in January continued in the SB.
 

loshjott

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Huh? It wasn't the level of intensity - every AFCCG game has high intensity - it was the revelation that our OL was showing cracks and that our vaunted passing game was able to be neutralized. In a season where Moss posted a 98/1493/23 regular season line, he posted this in the playoffs:

1/14/0
1/18/0
5/62/1

Not even 100 yards in 3 playoff games. The same issues that we had in Foxboro in January continued in the SB.
This is like a Yammer post from 9 yrs ago.

Del Rio game planned against Moss in the divisional round and that 1/14/0 line was largely irrelevant in Brady's 26-28/262/3/0 underneath dissection of the Jags defense. Del Rio dared Brady to get frustrated and throw over the top and he never did. 26-28.

Granted the SD game was more of a portent....
 

BigSoxFan

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This is like a Yammer post from 9 yrs ago.

Del Rio game planned against Moss in the divisional round and that 1/14/0 line was largely irrelevant in Brady's 26-28/262/3/0 underneath dissection of the Jags defense. Del Rio dared Brady to get frustrated and throw over the top and he never did. 26-28.

Granted the SD game was more of a portent....
Which was my entire point. SD game showed some cracks. They did not play well against a really good and physical defense. Agree that the Jags game was a bit different but I included it to show the entire playoff performance.
 

Salva135

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This pre-ordination of the Colts is what has shaped so much of the NFL media coverage of the Patriots. The Colts were the chosen ones, with the franchise saving 1st round pick legacy QB at the helm running an aesthetically pleasing offense.

In 2001, it was still cool, since the Pats were a feel good story toppling a giant in the Superbowl. There was still time for Manning to fulfill his destiny.

In 2003 & 2004, it stopped being funny. The Patriots disrupted The Colts well choreographed dance routine by repeatedly smashing them in the face with a sack full of hot nickels. The Patriots didn't just disrupt The Colts, they disrupted the professional football industry, and still continue to do so. They could quite possibly be the team of the decade for consecutive decades.

Well said. Peyton was the chosen one, a skinny 6th round pick out of Michigan was never supposed to be part of the NFL story. As for why the Colts aren't hated compared to the Pats, that's how it makes logical sense to us for the reasons H78 pointed out, but fans rarely think that way. Brady and BB will always be elitist East-West Coaster "arrogant cheaters" and the Colts, Polian, Peyton and Dungy will always have the country-boy "aw shucks, we're just trying to play the game the right way" perception. Details simply don't matter in the court of public NFL opinion. I would even go so far as to suggest that the average, casual NFL fan believes the Patriots are responsible for destroying the game with all of their rule-bending, nefarious ways that prevent 31 boy scout teams from winning more often.
 

pappymojo

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Indianapolis fans somehow blame the Patriots for the rule changes (point of emphasis) that the Colts pushed through the competition committee. Don't click on the link.

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2015/01/15/top-10-reasons-colts-fans-should-hate-the-patriots/21780473/

Being an outsider to Indy, I haven't lived the rivalry like many of you have. So I sent an email to a group of my friends who are Colts fans and asked why they hated the Patriots so much. Many of the responses aren't fit for print, but one theme kept popping up.

"Manhandling receivers every play since refs won't call it every play."

"Holding so much they had to change the rules."

"Taking so much advantage of defensive holding that they caused an avalanche of rule changes that makes watching football nearly unbearable."

"Their cheating gets rules to change, i.e. holding."

Like this?


Or this?

Maybe this?

You get the idea.
Please note that every photo provided shows a Colts receiver who is touching the ball. Not saying that there wasn't interference in those plays. Just saying that the photos do not show interference.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Dungy's envy and bitterness make me happy.

Between Pats wins and Obergefell decision I imagine Tony hasn't had a fully good year in a while.
 

luckiestman

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Pastor Tony is such a piece of shit. I wonder how many times Peyton tea bagged his fucking Pharisee forehead.
 

scottyno

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Brady is the 5th best modern QB

Well yeah because according to him Brady has only had 1 great offense while Peyton has had 12. I guess the 4th 11th and 12th most points in nfl history weren't great enough offenses, never mind the other half dozen seasons where they were great but not historically elite.
 

Super Nomario

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Well yeah because according to him Brady has only had 1 great offense while Peyton has had 12. I guess the 4th 11th and 12th most points in nfl history weren't great enough offenses, never mind the other half dozen seasons where they were great but not historically elite.
In fact, Brady's Pats averaged 28.2 PPG in his starts, Manning's teams 27.2.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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This is like a Yammer post from 9 yrs ago.

Del Rio game planned against Moss in the divisional round and that 1/14/0 line was largely irrelevant in Brady's 26-28/262/3/0 underneath dissection of the Jags defense. Del Rio dared Brady to get frustrated and throw over the top and he never did. 26-28.

Granted the SD game was more of a portent....
That Del Rio game plan may have been the worst game plan I've ever seen - it was the football equivalent of relying on Kevin Youkilis to chase 3-0 pitches a foot off the plate. They put up almost no pass rush and gave receivers about a 10 yard cushion all day, and then double and triple teamed Moss. It was incoherent.



As to Tony Dungy and 'the gays' - Michael Sam is the tip of the iceberg. Dungy spent a couple of years doing key-note speeches for anti-LGBTQ hate groups, and pushing conversion therapy (and then his gay son killed himself). He's a generally despicable person.
 

uk_sox_fan

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So looking at Montana's career vs Brady's, it's illustrative to see what Joe Cool would have had to have done after he retired to bring his stats up to match Brady's to-date. If Brady never played another game, Montana would have to play 4 1/2 more seasons and posted the following:
4 x 15-1 seasons plus 6-1 in a final partial season before hanging it up.
To equal Brady's playoff win-loss game totals he'd have to reach the Conf Championships in all 4 years, win 3 of them and go 2-1 in the Superbowl.

His regular season passing stats would have to pick up as he'd need to pass 40 time per game and increase his yd/g from his career avg of 247 to 296 over those 71 games. He'd also need to throw more TDs (increasing from 1.7/gm to 2.6) and fewer INTs (dropping from 13.6 per 16 gm season down to under 3)

In the playoffs he'd need to improve yardage a bit more drastically. In the 11 extra playoff games he'd need to up his passing from 32/gm to 54 and keep his same completion %age (62.7%). He'd need to post 51 more yd/gm (302 vice 251) though he'd need to toss one fewer TD every 2 1/2 games and keep the same INT rate (0.9/gm).

So basically, Montana would have had to extend his career by over 25% and upped his production while posting near-perfect seasons every year and having Brady-like playoff success each year. And that's before what Tom Terrific is due to add in the next (few?) years.
 

Bergs

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As to Tony Dungy and 'the gays' - Michael Sam is the tip of the iceberg. Dungy spent a couple of years doing key-note speeches for anti-LGBTQ hate groups, and pushing conversion therapy (and then his gay son killed himself). He's a generally despicable person.
Agreed 100% as to the bolded. Is there any actual evidence his son was gay, though? First time I've seen that stated as fact.
 

snowmanny

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So looking at Montana's career vs Brady's, it's illustrative to see what Joe Cool would have had to have done after he retired to bring his stats up to match Brady's to-date. If Brady never played another game, Montana would have to play 4 1/2 more seasons and posted the following:
4 x 15-1 seasons plus 6-1 in a final partial season before hanging it up.
To equal Brady's playoff win-loss game totals he'd have to reach the Conf Championships in all 4 years, win 3 of them and go 2-1 in the Superbowl.

His regular season passing stats would have to pick up as he'd need to pass 40 time per game and increase his yd/g from his career avg of 247 to 296 over those 71 games. He'd also need to throw more TDs (increasing from 1.7/gm to 2.6) and fewer INTs (dropping from 13.6 per 16 gm season down to under 3)

In the playoffs he'd need to improve yardage a bit more drastically. In the 11 extra playoff games he'd need to up his passing from 32/gm to 54 and keep his same completion %age (62.7%). He'd need to post 51 more yd/gm (302 vice 251) though he'd need to toss one fewer TD every 2 1/2 games and keep the same INT rate (0.9/gm).

So basically, Montana would have had to extend his career by over 25% and upped his production while posting near-perfect seasons every year and having Brady-like playoff success each year. And that's before what Tom Terrific is due to add in the next (few?) years.
The Montana argument basically boils down to 1) he had 1989, during which the 49ers blew out everyone in the playoffs to a +100 point differential and looked invincible, and Brady never had that; 2) he won a national title at Notre Dame; 3) it's basically impossible to make an argument for Elway, Marino, Bradshaw or Manning and the answer is not Brady so ergo Montana.
 

edoug

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What would Brady do with Jerry Rice, John Taylor and Roger Craig? Montana is the prime example of a system quarterback. Still he did come through when they needed him to.
 

Ed Hillel

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What would Brady do with Jerry Rice, John Taylor and Roger Craig? Montana is the prime example of a system quarterback. Still he did come through when they needed him to.
What's crazy is Montana NEVER gets called a "system QB," like Brady, yet Montana's heir was also top 5 on that list.
 
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