The Raiders relocation thread (3/27 viva Las Vegas Raiders!!!)

WayBackVazquez

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When you wrote "worse," and suggested that more LA-based fans of other teams would travel to Vegas than Inglewood to see their teams, I thought you meant you though that was likely and that it was actually worse for the Chargers. Sorry for the nitpick.

I get it, you love the Raiders, and think (purely objectively) the Chargers will fail in L.A. I'm sure you're right.
 

Dehere

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You are correct that home field advantage will be close to non-existent. Tourists will plan their trips to Vegas around when their home team comes to visit. But, except for a small number of highest rollers, those tourists will pay for their own tickets. The days of getting everything comp'd are largely over - casinos are really using lots of sophisticated analytics to really try hard to only comp stuff when it's profitable.
This was one of my first thoughts too. In some sense the Las Vegas Raiders will never play a home game.

On another point upthread I think what you might see is LVR home games taken off the board but road games stay on so that in the event they played in a Super Bowl out of state the books would still be able to do their usual SB business.

I hope it happens. Makes the whole league more fun. Remember fun?
 

Gunfighter 09

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When you wrote "worse," and suggested that more LA-based fans of other teams would travel to Vegas than Inglewood to see their teams, I thought you meant you though that was likely and that it was actually worse for the Chargers. Sorry for the nitpick.

I get it, you love the Raiders, and think (purely objectively) the Chargers will fail in L.A. I'm sure you're right.
This is what I wrote:

This would be terrible for the Chargers. The Raiders would keep their SoCal fans, blunting the Chargers growth. Worse, imagine you are an LA based Pats fan and the Pats have the AFC West, with games in Vegas and LA. Are you going to to drive to Inglewood to see the Pats in Kroenke world, or are you going to make a weekend out of it and see your team in fucking Vegas?
My baseline assertion in both threads is that the Raiders would have been a much better pick for the LA slot than the Chargers and that owner popularity was a terrible metric to base the choice on for the NFL. Of course, you live in LA and might have met both of the Charger fans who live there, so who knows, maybe you and Jerry Jones are right.

But, to be clear, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the second team to fail in LA. The fucking Clippers make money hand over fist and just sold for $2B. The Chargers will double in value the moment they move to LA and they will make more money long term than in San Diego, though the initial debt load will be severe.(The article spells it out well: http://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2016/1/18/10784714/san-diego-chargers-stadium-inglewood-economic-potential-money-spanos) That said, if the Raiders move to someplace closer and more accessible to their SoCal fans than Oakland, like Vegas or San Diego, that will hurt the hypothetical LA Chargers quite a bit, potentially shrink those revenue numbers and postpone the date the Chargers make their money back. The Chargers are hoping the Raiders stay in the bay area and they can get the kids of those SoCal Raider fans to wear powder blue. If dad is driving (or IflySWAing) them to games in Vegas or San Diego to watch the Raiders, which is easier and probably more frequent than the trip up the 5 to Oakland, that isn't happening at quite the same rate.

Fortunately for the hypothetical future of a hypothetical Vegas football team, and bad for the potential LA Chargers, the draw of Vegas will get many of those fans in the seats of the hypothetical Vegas stadium. But, point granted, the transplant audience that likes to make fun of people who might potentially be fat (or at least sweaty) on the internet will skip on the hassle of going to Vegas and go to Kroenke world instead.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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Nothing's a straight line walk in Vegas. A half mile in reality is probably double that or more. I stayed at the Mirage for a conference at Caesars (right next door) and it took me 15 minutes to get from my hotel room to the conference each day.
That's only because you don't visit Vegas multiple times a year for the past 2 decades :)
 

DegenerateSoxFan

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Nothing's a straight line walk in Vegas. A half mile in reality is probably double that or more. I stayed at the Mirage for a conference at Caesars (right next door) and it took me 15 minutes to get from my hotel room to the conference each day.
I used to go to Vegas more often when I lived out in Arizona, and when some newbie who was going for the first time would ask me what was the most important thing to bring with them, my answer was always unequivocal: comfortable shoes.
 

HriniakPosterChild

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I can see a downside to this. The casinos would buy up season tickets and then give them to the out of town fans staying in the casino hotel and playing at the casino tables. Tough to build a fan base or a home field advantage when every week half the fans in the stands are comp'd high rollers who are rooting for the visiting team.
I'm not the kind of guy who casinos would comp, so help me understand why they would give away tickets that would drive people out of their building. I understand comping tickets to the Cirque show in your own theater (or Penn & Teller or whoever), but would they really give away tickets that would keep you away from the tables for 3 or 4 hours?
 
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JimBoSox9

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I'm not the kind of guy who casinos would come, so help me understand why they would give away tickets that would drive people out of their building. I understand comping tickets to the Cirque show in your own theater (or Penn & Teller or whoever), but would they really give away tickets that would keep you away from the tables for 3 or 4 hours?
Their goal is generally about getting your business for your next trip, not the next 6 hours, when you're into higher-level comps.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Their goal is generally about getting your business for your next trip, not the next 6 hours, when you're into higher-level comps.
Although it would be pretty awesome if they had luxury boxes with a blackjack or baccarat table in the corner so that high rollers could stay in action during the game.

Sure, the NFL would never go for that...but still.
 

Oil Can Dan

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I'm not the kind of guy who casinos would come, so help me understand why they would give away tickets that would drive people out of their building. I understand comping tickets to the Cirque show in your own theater (or Penn & Teller or whoever), but would they really give away tickets that would keep you away from the tables for 3 or 4 hours?
The hosts just want you to be happy with them so you continue to bring your business their way. There are multiple options and it's competitive, so tickets are definitely thrown around all over. The players know the game - if they're getting tix, limos, rooms and food/bev comps then they'll be sure to have a respectable amount of time on the tables with a healthy avg bet. It's all part of the game.
 

Marciano490

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Ahh, the old 12:30AM DP.
Took me a minute to figure what you meant here given the subject matter.

And, no gauntlet. Was just like $500 for the hour but the hour only includes her time. 300 extra to get off once she started doodling with his pecker. At least that's how he tells it. I was having scrambled eggs.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Took me a minute to figure what you meant here given the subject matter.

And, no gauntlet. Was just like $500 for the hour but the hour only includes her time. 300 extra to get off once she started doodling with his pecker. At least that's how he tells it. I was having scrambled eggs.
Those could have been the worst scrambled eggs in history and you still made the better choice.
 

koufax32

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SoSH: Where pedantic talk of NFL relocation politics inevitably devolves into first person tales of whack-a-doodle.
 

Al Zarilla

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3. Having worked there a few times, any level of outdoor physical activity in the Vegas summer is going to cover you in sweat such that you feel disgusting when you are tying to gamble, eat or party. That's seems like a really weird place to question someone's physical prowess.
Even thought it's a dry heat, as dry as it gets in this country? I know what you mean though, having walked between casinos there on August days when it was 108, and you don't want to go very fast. So, a retractable roof stadium like the University of Phoenix and Chase Field stadiums, is of course an absolute necessity.

When I first saw this thread about a team in Vegas, I wondered about enough people to support it. Then I looked up the population in greater Las Vegas and at 2 million, I guess that's plenty. Also, you've got that runway called Route 15 from LA to Las Vegas. You won't get many fans from the counties that surround Las Vegas because they're all very sparsely populated. 2 million plus LA probably makes it though.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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I used to go to Vegas more often when I lived out in Arizona, and when some newbie who was going for the first time would ask me what was the most important thing to bring with them, my answer was always unequivocal: comfortable shoes.
And for a bald ass mofo like me, sun screen. I'm not a hat guy.

And Cafe Lux is the perfect place to go lick your wounds after you've been cleaned out at the Rock of Ages black jack table.
 

dbn

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I believe a lot of people fly from LA to LV, too. I've only driven, but I guess there must be plentiful inexpensive flights. I've often wondered why there hasn't been a high-speed rail line connecting the two, but the flight thing is usually the reason people give me.
 

DegenerateSoxFan

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I believe a lot of people fly from LA to LV, too. I've only driven, but I guess there must be plentiful inexpensive flights. I've often wondered why there hasn't been a high-speed rail line connecting the two, but the flight thing is usually the reason people give me.
Back in the day (the 90s), Southwest used to have $29 one-ways from LA to LV, Phoenix to LV, Phoenix to LA. Many an Arizona and SO Cal college student hopped on those all the time. No idea whether they still have deals like that. That was back when you could find $5 blackjack tables everywhere in Vegas
 

lithos2003

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Back in the day (the 90s), Southwest used to have $29 one-ways from LA to LV, Phoenix to LV, Phoenix to LA. Many an Arizona and SO Cal college student hopped on those all the time. No idea whether they still have deals like that. That was back when you could find $5 blackjack tables everywhere in Vegas
I just checked and depending on day/time it's as low as $41 each way from LAX to Vegas, so yeah still cheap.
 
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So the below actually happened. Mark looks quite dapper relative to the other guy in the picture.
His politics may be odious, but I probably don't have to tell you that you could scarcely hand-pick a better guy to be the money partner for your team. Even leaving aside his national political influence (and the fact that he's from Boston!), Sheldon Adelson is as savvy a businessman as they come, with a consistent midas touch when it comes to entrepreneurship. My friends in ops at Harrah's have said he's regarded as a sane, almost down-to-earth Steve Wynn. Frankly, anyone who can buy off most of the Chinese government to get licenses in Macau, and then not get prosecuted under the FCPA, is a pretty smooth operator. Biggest trick the devil ever pulled, etc.

No sports experience, of course, but Adelson's track record with the Sands, COMDEX before that, and his various other ventures suggests that he's the hands-off type who empowers people to run his stuff, holds them accountable, and then stays out of it. I wouldn't be worried about a Dan Snyder / Jerry Jones type scenario.

One popular theory that is being kicked around Raiders fans is that if the NFL successfully freezes Davis out of both LA and Las Vegas, Mark might decide he wants to fight about it, specifically to get to Vegas. The thinking is that with a guy like Adelson behind him, and the fact that the NFL would be forcing him to give up an opportunity for a free stadium, Davis might have a chance of winning in court. No to mention the fact that by pissing off Adelson, the NFL risks US Congress suddenly becoming interested in PED use by NFL players and the concussion risk of playing football.
Now that's an interesting perspective. I guess it depends on the GOP retaining control of Congress, and other billionaire owners not leveraging their own political muscle. But if Mark (Marc?) is prepared to give up enough equity to Adelson to get the full use of his rolodex, that would be a seriously far-sighted, mature move on his part. So many sports owners would rather be king than be rich. Davis is prepared to become second banana to get his team the money it needs. Deal with the devil or not, that's some guts.
 

simplyeric

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Where were you when my stepbrother was getting an $800 hj at the Venetian while I sat alone at the cafe lux?
So you had no luck no luck at the whore house and you're preoccupied with the HJ your brother is getting, and your thought is 'if only PP could have been there instead of scrambled eggs...'
Interesting.
 

Marciano490

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So you had no luck no luck at the whore house and you're preoccupied with the HJ your brother is getting, and your thought is 'if only PP could have been there instead of scrambled eggs...'
Interesting.
I like PP. He has a mastiff and he's a good cook. It was the first time I ever ate alone in public and it was lonely.
 

doc

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Can we change the title to Fear and Loathing with the Raiders
 

Ed Hillel

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Couldn't the Rams have just moved to Vegas and saved the time and effort?
 

Vegas Sox Fan

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I'm on record as saying this is unlikely but if Davis is really ready to commit if the council approves the tourist tax this could have legs. The council recently approved a similar tax to be routed to the development of a downtown soccer stadium and they had much less commitment from MLS. Davis was in town a few weeks ago touring the UNLV football stadium. Capacity there is 40,000 which is only 10,000 less than University of Minnesota where the Vikings played this year. It is feasible they could play there while waiting for construction of the new stadium.
 

Gunfighter 09

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There is a weird thing going on where the two halves of the Raiders' fan base will fight like heck over whether the Raiders belong in LA or the Bay Area but all agree that Vegas would be really cool.

I would not be surprised if this is one of many reasons that a very Fan sensitive owner like Mark Davis finds Vegas more appealing than being Kroenke's tenant in LA. If Cole is right, and Davis really has backing from Kroenke and Jerrah for Vegas as Vinny Bonsengior has reported, then I would not be at all surprised if the Raiders move when the current lease is up in 2018. They would play at Boyd for a couple years and then move into the new stadium on the strip which Davis would probably have design input on, unlike Kroenkeworld in Inglewood.

The current stadium only seats 55K, so a step down to 40K seats would not be terribly prohibitive. They were going to play in the Home Depot Center (<30k seats) if Carson would have happened and offer current Oakland Season ticket holders first shot at seats there, so I bet Mark is confident he could sell most of those 40K seats to current season ticket holders. We certainly would buy seats in Sam Boyd.
 

mauf

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Ha! Remember the NFL that for decades fought even the appearance of associating or consorting with gambling? What terrible league run by idiots.
Times have changed. Now that so much gambling action has moved online, having a team in Vegas wouldn't alter the league's risk materially.
 
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DegenerateSoxFan

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There is a weird thing going on where the two halves of the Raiders' fan base will fight like heck over whether the Raiders belong in LA or the Bay Area but all agree that Vegas would be really cool.

The current stadium only seats 55K, so a step down to 40K seats would not be terribly prohibitive. They were going to play in the Home Depot Center (<30k seats) if Carson would have happened and offer current Oakland Season ticket holders first shot at seats there, so I bet Mark is confident he could sell most of those 40K seats to current season ticket holders. We certainly would buy seats in Sam Boyd.
Saw a number of Grateful Dead shows there in the early '90s. Ahhh...Vegas. Perfectly cromulent venue to get things started. Raiduhs to Vegas - this has to happen. And enough with the horseshit about concerns with being associated with gambling (cough, cough, injury lists). This needs to happen.
 

Ed Hillel

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Gun, as a fan, wouldn't there be a concern about so many players living in or by Las Vegas? It seems like a lot could go poorly.
 

JimBoSox9

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Gun, as a fan, wouldn't there be a concern about so many players living in or by Las Vegas? It seems like a lot could go poorly.
I disagree. Vegas has the most highly developed and sophisticated industry in the known world around making sure rich people avoid bad consequences (for a price).
 

Oil Can Dan

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That's true, but there's still a ton more temptation in Vegas than just about any other NFL city. The hosts will try to take care of you so long as you remain a profit center, but that can change quickly.

That said I hope the Raiders in Vegas happens. A perfect match.
 

Gunfighter 09

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Gun, as a fan, wouldn't there be a concern about so many players living in or by Las Vegas? It seems like a lot could go poorly.
I certainly do worry for poor Aldon Smith if they move to Vegas, those concerns are legitimate. With that said, many of those concerns exist in Los Angeles. I would hope that the Raiders invest well in a good security team to help players avoid those kind of issues.

At the same time, while I am fairly certain you will see the Vegas Raiders in the top half of the league in behavior/program offenses, I also think Vegas would create a significant home field advantage as visiting teams deal with trying to keep really rich 24 year olds trapped in a Vegas hotel on a Saturday night.