The terribly mediocre Lakers

Cesar Crespo

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#3 for D'Angelo Russell (assuming Ball to LAL at 2)? Would you do that? Based on what I'm hearing, Philly isn't really enamored with their options at 3.
Russell is polarizing too. He's still only 21 and does some things you like, but I don't think I make that trade. I guess if you are convinced he can be a PG and/or his shooting is going to improve. The fact the Lakers decided to sit him and start Jordan Clarkson to prove a point says something too. Does Russell really have that much value around the league he would go for a top 5 lottery pick?
 

BigSoxFan

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Russell is polarizing too. He's still only 21 and does some things you like, but I don't think I make that trade. I guess if you are convinced he can be a PG and/or his shooting is going to improve. The fact the Lakers decided to sit him and start Jordan Clarkson to prove a point says something too. Does Russell really have that much value around the league he would go for a top 5 lottery pick?
I'm not a huge Russell fan but he may be a better fit in Philly as a secondary ball handler. His shooting needs to get better but I think some of that is shot selection. He has shot 35% from 3 point land the past 2 years so pretty solid there.
 

cheech13

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Russell is polarizing too. He's still only 21 and does some things you like, but I don't think I make that trade. I guess if you are convinced he can be a PG and/or his shooting is going to improve. The fact the Lakers decided to sit him and start Jordan Clarkson to prove a point says something too. Does Russell really have that much value around the league he would go for a top 5 lottery pick?
I've heard that Dallas has interest but doesn't want to give up the #9 pick to get him. My guess is he could snag a lottery pick, but not something in the top five.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm not a huge Russell fan but he may be a better fit in Philly as a secondary ball handler. His shooting needs to get better but I think some of that is shot selection. He has shot 35% from 3 point land the past 2 years so pretty solid there.
Seems like trading down for Monk would make the most sense for Philly. If on draft night the Lakers don't take Ball, maybe that Sixers pick becomes more valuable and a team like Sacramento or Minnesota would move another asset of value to move up from 5 or 7 to get him. I doubt the Kings would do 5+10 for 3 though. Although the Rockets once traded 13, 18 and 23 for 7.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I've heard that Dallas has interest but doesn't want to give up the #9 pick to get him. My guess is he could snag a lottery pick, but not something in the top five.
OTOH, I'd trade the 9th pick for him all day if I were the Mavs. I'm not sure they'll get a player with more upside than Russell at 9. Gamble that he takes a step forward and even if he doesn't, he probably ends up better than who is selected at 9 anyway. If I were Sacramento, I'd move the 10 for him too.
 

LondonSox

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I'd probably rather have Frank for 4 years cheap than Russell for 2.
I think there will be a decent player around at 9, but the price and control likely is more helpful.
I think Russell is talented still so if people wanted to it's certainly not unreasonable
 

sezwho

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Seems like trading down for Monk would make the most sense for Philly. If on draft night the Lakers don't take Ball, maybe that Sixers pick becomes more valuable and a team like Sacramento or Minnesota would move another asset of value to move up from 5 or 7 to get him. I doubt the Kings would do 5+10 for 3 though. Although the Rockets once traded 13, 18 and 23 for 7.

Pretty sure Danny beat that offer not so long ago. Philly is going to be fun to watch whichever of these picks they end up with...health permitting (as usual) its going to be hard for them not to win some games.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Pretty sure Danny beat that offer not so long ago. Philly is going to be fun to watch whichever of these picks they end up with...health permitting (as usual) its going to be hard for them not to win some games.
I wonder how much of that is actually true, and if it is true, what the 6 picks were. 4 could have "potentially" been 1st round picks. Which picks? I think Danny knew what he had with the Nets pick.

Funnily enough, Kaminksy was a much better from 3 point range in the 2nd half last year and might actually end up being useful.
 

Gunfighter 09

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So the Lakers are apparently at an impasse over whether to draft Ball or Jackson:

The Los Angeles Lakers surprised everyone when they brought Kansas one-and-done wing Josh Jackson back for a quickly scheduled second private workout following 24-hours of rumors over whether or not they had promised to take him second overall in the 2017 NBA Draft.


News quickly followed that the Lakers would be bringing UCLA guard Lonzo Ball — who was previously the odds-on favorite to be selected by the Lakers — back for a second workout with the team.

It turns out these flurry of workouts aren’t a coincidence, but rather appear to be a larger, last-ditch effort by the Lakers to figure out which player they ultimately want to stake their future on.

Broderick Turner of the Los Angeles Times reports that “the Lakers are split over whether to use their No. 2 pick in the NBA draft on Ball or Jackson,” and that the team has “been having a healthy debate on which course to take because they are intrigued by the talents of both players.”


With all of the smoke over the last few days, it’s clear that the Lakers are at a fork in the road (or are just going to insane lengths to make us think they are).
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2017/6/14/15798954/la-lakers-draft-rumors-lonzo-ball-josh-jackson-nba-reports-news-ucla-kansas-split

I don't think they could go wrong either way, but the decision leads to a really interesting conversation about what would be better in today's NBA. Assuming they all reach projections when in four years when they hit their mid twenties, would you rather have two guards who are great passers, excellent in transition and very good to great shooters who are long, but somewhat limited defensively in Russell and Ball? Or would they be better off with two long forwards who are high effort guys that can switch endlessly on defense who can also shoot on the other end in Ingram and Jackson?

I think the pair of athletic forwards is the way to go, since it seems to be much easier in 2017 to find PGs. But, if they really do know that Paul George is coming next year, the pair of guards is probably the better answer from a roster construction standpoint.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I don't think they could go wrong either way, but the decision leads to a really interesting conversation about what would be better in today's NBA. Assuming they all reach projections when in four years when they hit their mid twenties, would you rather have two guards who are great passers, excellent in transition and very good to great shooters who are long, but somewhat limited defensively in Russell and Ball? Or would they be better off with two long forwards who are high effort guys that can switch endlessly on defense who can also shoot on the other end in Ingram and Jackson?

I think the pair of athletic forwards is the way to go, since it seems to be much easier in 2017 to find PGs. But, if they really do know that Paul George is coming next year, the pair of guards is probably the better answer from a roster construction standpoint.
I don't know how a team can look at today's NBA and think they can win with subpar defenders like Russell and Ball. I teams are going to run PnRs to get one of them in a mismatch and then the entire defense breaks down. Even the 'Zards - whose guards are as talented offensively as any two in the league - are finding out that they can't beat the Cs, much less the Cavs or the Ws, with guards who can't fight through PnRs and don't really make the necessary rotations all of the time.

On a side note, the Pacers passed up on Kawhi because they thought they were set at the 3 with George and Granger. If Jackson and Ingram turn out who they are supposed to be, it's not going to be an issue having PG, JJ, and Ingram on the floor at the same time just because (as you note) how versatile they are defensively.
 

Cesar Crespo

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How long is Ball anyway? I see his wingspan ranging from 6'6 to 7'0. 6'6 for a guy who is 6'6 isn't that great but for a PG it is. 7'0 is another level all together.
 

Gunfighter 09

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I hate this fucking trade for the Lakers. Giving up on 21 year old talent in the hope of landing 34 year old LeBron next summer is fucking stupid. I still think Russell is going to be a multiple time all star, and it is huge risk to get rid of that young, cost controlled talent to risk it all on Lonzo Ball and Magic's fucking charm.

They really have to hope they get Paul George for the two late first round picks and one of Randall/Clarkson this summer, giving him Bird rights. That would turn the spring / summer dealings into:

Russell + Randle/Clarkson + Lou Williams = One year of Lopez + Paul George and dumping the Mozgof contract

Which would put them in position next summer to stretch the horrible Deng deal, and try to deal Nick Young (incredible that he outlasted Russell in LA) as an expiring contract and have room for close to two maxes to go with PG. That isn't horrible. But it only works if Magic/Pelinka get a LeBron or Westbrook or Boogie to go with George and have Ingram and Ball both get close to their potential.

I would love to know how much of this is Kobe whispering in Pelinka's ear and how much was Magic getting rid of the previous regime's guys.
 

nighthob

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I hate this fucking trade for the Lakers. Giving up on 21 year old talent in the hope of landing 34 year old LeBron next summer is fucking stupid. I still think Russell is going to be a multiple time all star, and it is huge risk to get rid of that young, cost controlled talent to risk it all on Lonzo Ball and Magic's fucking charm.

They really have to hope they get Paul George for the two late first round picks and one of Randall/Clarkson this summer, giving him Bird rights.
I'm guessing that the next shoe to drop is Indiana agreeing to eat the terrible Deng contract in exchange for #2 and one of the forwards. That would leave the Lakers approximately $55 million in cap space to put talent around PG next summer, which wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I hate this fucking trade for the Lakers. Giving up on 21 year old talent in the hope of landing 34 year old LeBron next summer is fucking stupid. I still think Russell is going to be a multiple time all star, and it is huge risk to get rid of that young, cost controlled talent to risk it all on Lonzo Ball and Magic's fucking charm.

They really have to hope they get Paul George for the two late first round picks and one of Randall/Clarkson this summer, giving him Bird rights. That would turn the spring / summer dealings into:

Russell + Randle/Clarkson + Lou Williams = One year of Lopez + Paul George and dumping the Mozgof contract

Which would put them in position next summer to stretch the horrible Deng deal, and try to deal Nick Young (incredible that he outlasted Russell in LA) as an expiring contract and have room for close to two maxes to go with PG. That isn't horrible. But it only works if Magic/Pelinka get a LeBron or Westbrook or Boogie to go with George and have Ingram and Ball both get close to their potential.

I would love to know how much of this is Kobe whispering in Pelinka's ear and how much was Magic getting rid of the previous regime's guys.
Much of it is Magic putting HIS stamp on the team by moving the previous administrations personnel sooner rather than later. Another part is that Russell has not only been erratic on the floor, which is expected of a young PG, but that he has quickly earned the reputation as an undeserving prima donna who doesn't have the necessary work ethic to take his game up several notches. The third is that Magic may really really like Lonzo Ball's game as his ball movement and passing is a throwback to Magic's time. Naturally the 4th part which is the priority is to have the opportunity to bring George on ASAP and LeBron next summer......I feel too many people here are not taking this as a legitimate possibility. I'm almost thinking it is not only a possibility but now that Gilbert is again running LeBron out of town as an actual probability.
 

Gunfighter 09

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Ball as primary lead guard on a bad team will be VERY interesting.
I suspect it will be a disaster with a lot of highlight moments
I suspect you will get plenty of moments to laugh at a 20 year old rookie point guard this upcoming season.

Point guards, especially tall ones, take time to develop. That is yet another flaw in this move. Russell showed notable improvement in his two years and was already two years deep into the development process that was working, but the Lakers threw that investment away yesterday. Ball will likely have a similar development timeline and that doesn't seem to mesh well with what the Lakers are trying to do by grabbing James/George/Westbrook deep into their primes.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Why would they even need Ball if Westbrook is there? Or maybe that's your point, that Ball is future trade bait. I tend to think Ball would fit in well on a team with 2 dominant scorers though. He'd just have to hit open 3s and keep the ball moving.

I like the deal for both teams. At the very least, Russell gives Nets fans a reason to watch next year and some glimmer of hope. He was somewhat stagnant last year but he did improve as a play maker. For the Lakers, it frees up salary and makes them a better team this year, potentially screwing the Celtics in the process. I also think Brook Lopez would be a really good fit on a team with Paul George and LeBron James. It would be a nightmare for teams to defend. Seems like a better fit than Westbrook anyway, but that's not nearly enough to cover the difference in talent. I'm not sure how well Westbrook and James would play off each other though. Whereas Lopez can block some shots while being able to score inside or beyond the arc.
 

LondonSox

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I meant more this year.
If (pretty big one) LeBron and PG come I agree he'd be a good complementary piece.

But unless they both want to come the pitch without the other is poor.

It also shows how damaging signing bad free agents can be.
That mosgov move cost them Russell.
Because a total lack of a plan
 

JakeRae

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Can someone explain why Lebron would want to leave Cleveland to play on a worse Lakers team that has a much tougher road to the finals? Lebron, George, and scrubs is not as good as the Cavs team is currently and Ball isn't developing in time to make a difference during what is left of Lebron's prime.
 

BigSoxFan

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Can someone explain why Lebron would want to leave Cleveland to play on a worse Lakers team that has a much tougher road to the finals? Lebron, George, and scrubs is not as good as the Cavs team is currently and Ball isn't developing in time to make a difference during what is left of Lebron's prime.
A move to LA would be about off the court stuff. Guy is trying to build up his brand to an MJ like level. Playing in a bigger market and being in LA helps all that. He obviously gets plenty of exposure in Cleveland but being the "King of LA" or whatever would be even better for him.

And secondly, he probably wouldn't mind sticking it to Dan Gilbert one more time. LeBron has already brought a championship to Cleveland so I don't think he would have as big of an issue leaving this time.
 

cheech13

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Can someone explain why Lebron would want to leave Cleveland to play on a worse Lakers team that has a much tougher road to the finals? Lebron, George, and scrubs is not as good as the Cavs team is currently and Ball isn't developing in time to make a difference during what is left of Lebron's prime.
Everything regarding Lebron to LA seems to stem from this article that appeared on the Ringer after the NBA Finals: https://theringer.com/2017-nba-finals-lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-los-angeles-lakers-clippers-25e353094845

There are no direct sources or quotes, but more credible journalists like Woj have alluded to James desire to play in LA. I think it's possible, but many are getting a little over their skis in acting like this is a foregone conclusion. Lebron has a huge house in Brentwood and he and his wife have intimated that they'd like to be out in LA full time, but I don't think that necessarily means he'd jeopardize the last few years of his prime if the Lakers or Clippers don't make the most basketball sense.
 

cheech13

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Also, Cleveland looks like a tire fire today because Griffin got canned in the most unceremonious way possible, but if Billups as President brings along a highly regarded or credible GM and the team finalizes a deal for George or Butler in the next few days then a lot of that talk will go away. What will matter most is how good this year's Cavs team is.
 

bankshot1

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I've nothing against LeBron, and he can orchestrate his career however he wants and if he wants to be King of LA I can only hope its as a Clipper, as anything that puts the Lakers remotely closer to a championship irks me.
 

bakahump

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Going to LA would be perfect. Not only will James need to beat the Warriors and Spurs before getting a chance at another title but then whomever the East sends. (Granted the eastern Team could be of lesser quality but the might have HCA to help pull off a slight upset.)
 

bankshot1

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If the current Celtics rebuild timetable is premised on 1) LeBron aging and 2) Warriors making some tough payroll decisions, over the next 3 years, then if LeBron goes to LA, he will probably get beaten in the WCF, and the Celts path to the Finals might be accelerated but end in an ugly ass-kicking a couple of times in the Finals.

and I'm mostly being facetious.

mostly
 

bakahump

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Oh no Doubt.
A positive though would be a tougher Western Conference might mean HCA for an east team.
My point was that:
1. LBJ would need to pull off a pretty good upset to beat at least 1 of GSW or SA. (not to mention the other good teams out west). Not a given but at least plausible.
2. They would then need to beat the Eastern Conference Champs.
3. Those Eastern Conference Champs MIGHT have HCA due to playing in an the easier conference and not having other "really good" teams beating them up on them on a daily basis during the regular season (unlike the Western Champs).
4. HCA Could help a "Very good" Eastern Conf Champion beat a "Very Good" Western Conf Champion (which is was an LAL James team would be).
5. Eastern HCA or Not the GSWs most likely walk all over everyone else.

Basically adding LBJ to LA makes it a tougher west. And that makes another LBJ championships more difficult. It also makes life more difficult for all the Really good Western teams (and 1 Super Team).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Can someone explain why Lebron would want to leave Cleveland to play on a worse Lakers team that has a much tougher road to the finals? Lebron, George, and scrubs is not as good as the Cavs team is currently and Ball isn't developing in time to make a difference during what is left of Lebron's prime.
I think you are forgetting Ingram. Assuming minimal progression from Ingram, I would take LBJ, PG, and Ingram over LBJ, Irving, and Love against GSW (not for the regular season but the regular season doesn't matter). LBJ, PG, and Ingram are long enough defensively to give GSW some problems.

Also, CLE is totally capped out right now and likely isn't getting better; at least the Lakers will have some young players who can grow - Ball, Zubac, possibly Clarkson or Randle, and Nance Jr.

Both Ingram and Ball would really benefit from playing with LBJ and PG.

While it would certainly depend on how the Lakers filled out their roster, it is not that difficult for me to see how the Lakers become bona fide contenders if they get PG and LBJ.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I think you are forgetting Ingram. Assuming minimal progression from Ingram, I would take LBJ, PG, and Ingram over LBJ, Irving, and Love against GSW (not for the regular season but the regular season doesn't matter). LBJ, PG, and Ingram are long enough defensively to give GSW some problems.

Also, CLE is totally capped out right now and likely isn't getting better; at least the Lakers will have some young players who can grow - Ball, Zubac, possibly Clarkson or Randle, and Nance Jr.

Both Ingram and Ball would really benefit from playing with LBJ and PG.

While it would certainly depend on how the Lakers filled out their roster, it is not that difficult for me to see how the Lakers become bona fide contenders if they get PG and LBJ.
He's also forgetting Lopez or someone else if they are able to move Deng. Pretty sure I read where if they trade for George this year, they can come pretty close to signing 2 max guys. Cousins/James/George would be pretty sick. Lopez/James/George is a pretty good trio too.
 

cheech13

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He's also forgetting Lopez or someone else if they are able to move Deng. Pretty sure I read where if they trade for George this year, they can come pretty close to signing 2 max guys. Cousins/James/George would be pretty sick. Lopez/James/George is a pretty good trio too.
This isn't close to correct. The Lakers would have to stretch Deng, renounce Lopez, renounce Randle and move Clarkson without taking back any salary to get in the range of signing just James and George to max deals. There are different ways to get there, especially if they can get someone to eat the Deng contract outright, but it won't be enough to keep Lopez or add anyone else of significant value if they are intent on keeping Ingram and Ball.
 
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cheech13

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You are probably right but he doesn't say anything about not bringing back Lopez.
The previous tweet before that indicated that they'd have to renounce Brook as well.


Renouncing Brook would get them in range of signing George, but they'd still have to shed $35+ million to fit James in.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I meant more this year.
If (pretty big one) LeBron and PG come I agree he'd be a good complementary piece.

But unless they both want to come the pitch without the other is poor.

It also shows how damaging signing bad free agents can be.
That mosgov move cost them Russell.
Because a total lack of a plan
I don't really believe this is true. Mozgov is a serviceable big on a comparable contract to other serviceable 5's and easy to move. The Lakers prior administration had a plan to surround it's young players with some veterans like Mozgov and Deng to hopefully speed up the maturation process similar to the Wizards early in Wall's career when they acquired Ariza, Nene and Okafor during a small window when they woudn't be competing for the playoffs.

The problem was that once Magic took over the plan changed when the leadership changed and he didn't want Russell as his main horse, nor does he likely want any of the holdovers around.
 

Tony C

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I think the problem wasn't that the plan changed, it was that the plan needed to change because signing Mozgov and Deng was an awful idea.
I suspect you will get plenty of moments to laugh at a 20 year old rookie point guard this upcoming season.

Point guards, especially tall ones, take time to develop. That is yet another flaw in this move. Russell showed notable improvement in his two years and was already two years deep into the development process that was working, but the Lakers threw that investment away yesterday. Ball will likely have a similar development timeline and that doesn't seem to mesh well with what the Lakers are trying to do by grabbing James/George/Westbrook deep into their primes.
He did show improvement, but let's be realistic -- he was benched and then moved to off guard. For a guy who was lauded for his on court intelligence and vision coming into the draft he displayed very little of that. I think Russell will end up being a solid player, but the Lakers made the right call in using him as a chip in dumping the Mozgov contract. It isn't that the new regime doesn't want holdovers, but that they had to choose which holdovers to keep or not. They probably made the right choice.
 

Swedgin

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I think the problem wasn't that the plan changed, it was that the plan needed to change because signing Mozgov and Deng was an awful idea.

He did show improvement, but let's be realistic -- he was benched and then moved to off guard. For a guy who was lauded for his on court intelligence and vision coming into the draft he displayed very little of that. I think Russell will end up being a solid player, but the Lakers made the right call in using him as a chip in dumping the Mozgov contract. It isn't that the new regime doesn't want holdovers, but that they had to choose which holdovers to keep or not. They probably made the right choice.
Lowe and Arnovitz discussed Russell on latest Lowe Post, Arnovitz alluded to a lot of negative commentary from people in the Laker's organization (whom he respects) regarding Russell. I believe one of the observations was along the lines of "how much more can we dumb down the offense". There was also reference to poor work ethic etc.
 

Tony C

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Yep. It is a cautionary tale in re high draft hopes in that -- as someone alluded to above (or in a different thread) -- he was being lauded when drafted for being the opposite of how he's now being tagged. I do wonder if bad attitude/bad habits may have had something to do with the whole team despising him for his Nick Young/Iggy A shenanigans. He brought it on himself, of course, but still couldn't have been easy for a young kid. It's why maybe being exiled to Brooklyn could be the best thing for him -- perhaps a bit of anonymity will help get him back on track?
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Going to be really tough for this team to stay out the cellar in what is now an even more loaded West. Minnesota has improved a ton, and the Suns and Kings seem to be very active in free agency. If it bears fruit LA becomes the clear worst team in the conference, while, ideally, all the crappy East teams rack up enough wins against each other to stay ahead.

As SoSH's resident tank reporter, this season might kill me.
 
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BigSoxFan

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Going to be really tough for this team to stay out the cellar in what is now an even more loaded West. Minnesota has improved a ton, and the Suns and Kings seem to be very active in free agency. If it bears fruit LA becomes the clear worst team in the conference, while, ideally, all the crappy East teams rack up enough wins against each other to stay ahead.

As SoSH's resident tank reporter, this season might kill me.
Celtics should tank this year. I don't want to choose between Doncic, Ayton, and Porter. I want them ALL!
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Celtics should tank this year. I don't want to choose between Doncic, Ayton, and Porter. I want them ALL!
"The number 3 pick in the 2018 NBA draft goes to...


The number 2 pick in the 2018 NBA draft goes to...


And finally, the moment you've all been waiting for. The number 1 pick in the 2018 NBA draft goes to...



Congratulations to all of tonight's lotto winners."
 

jmm57

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Somewhere in a similar thread from yesteryear there is a longing for lottery luck to grab Harry Giles or Skal Labissier at the top of the next year's draft.
 

DJnVa

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Somewhere in a similar thread from yesteryear there is a longing for lottery luck to grab Harry Giles or Skal Labissier at the top of the next year's draft.
Why are you the way you are?

It doesn't matter who ends up being the top prospects when it rolls around--we still have a chance at 2 of them. Or trading up to get one we really want.