Toronto hires Cherington
- Thread starter tims4wins
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Considering the overwhelming majority of the current team are products of Theo and Dave, I'm not exactly shaking in my boots. We'll all be fine.
I'm happy for Ben. Seems like a really good guy. I'm not sure if this moves the needle overall but it helps the organization especially since they are on the cusp of losing EE and Bats. I look at his time in Boston as someone who loved player development but was gun shy to make a move to fill a hole when needed. He's perfect for that kind of organization though where he's going to be under zero pressure day 1 and he can slowly bring along prospects to restock the 25 man roster.
In a big market like Boston or NY he's middle of the road.
In a big market like Boston or NY he's middle of the road.
So when do we trade Tazawa for Donaldson?
I kid. Happy for Ben, who seems like a good guy and has real talent at, at least, some aspects of the game.
Why are some people upset?
I kid. Happy for Ben, who seems like a good guy and has real talent at, at least, some aspects of the game.
Why are some people upset?
Ben basically had the same job under Theo that he was just hired for, so he's pretty good at it.
I mean, this is great for Cherington, but I don't see him as the sort of generational talent that means we'll see a change in the balance of power in the AL East because of this move.
Can we send them back Farrell, too? Donaldson would be fair compensation.
In all seriousness, this is a good landing spot for Ben, and he will probably do well in this role. The Jays have a solid front office.
In all seriousness, this is a good landing spot for Ben, and he will probably do well in this role. The Jays have a solid front office.
Yeah, I'm not seeing the 'fuck fuck fuck' aspect of this. Good for him, but the guy isn't going to turn them into a juggernaut. Lots of people contributed to the farm system he gets credited for. If he can recreate that, good on him and it would likely lead to another GM job. Only (small) fear is he steals some staff.
My Blue Jays fan friend has been ripping Mark Shapiro since the day he arrived in Toronto. He's convinced that Shapiro wants to blow up this team because it's not 'his' team, and rebuild it to his liking with his own fingerprints on it. If Ben didn't want to work under Dombrowski, it doesn't sound like working under Shapiro will be any easier - quite the opposite.
Don't think anyone in this thread is saying he was terrible. But he also wasn't Pat Gillick, Theo, or a handful of other guys I would worry about a divisional opponent hiring. He made good moves and bad, like any other GM (as you note), but that's kind of irrelevant since that's not what he's being hired for. He did a great job running the minor league, but that's a title that has a lot of people below him doing a lot of legwork and one can't assume he can walk in and replicate that.
In short, the sky isn't falling. So "fuck fuck fuck" I find to be a wee bit of an overreaction.
Is Toronto not a big market? I guess hockey will always be king but this isn't like going to Pittsburgh.
Any argument that begins with "he wasn't terrible" demonstrates why this move should not concern Red Sox fans. You're absolutely right, but not being terrible shouldn't be the benchmark of a GM, and it doesn't suggest a skill set that will negatively impact the Sox within the division.
Edit: What Poutine said.
we should be concerned about the farm system he is about to build, while DD trades this one away and leave it barren by the middle of next season
Toronto has over 3 million in attendance this year, they have a national TV deal with their parent company broadcasting all 162 games reaching over 35 million people. They also have been trying their best here in the Maritime Provinces to convince the young people to become Blue Jay followers by holding numerous skill camps and other caravans. In other words trying to cut in to the traditional Red Sox following that exists in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. They are indeed a major market.
You mean like he had the opportunity to do this year (for Sale) and declined to do so? Pretty sure if he didn't splash the pot at that time odds are pretty good that fear is unfounded.
They also have to take in Canadian money and pay out in American for salaries. That can affect things. But Toronto is a very big city, and their "region" is pretty much a whole country. Sure, their TV ratings are padded with Elk and beavers, but woodland creatures buy stuff too.
I wish him as much success up there as he had down here. And by that I mean that I hope he grows a rooftop garden and doesn't develop any pitching whatsoever.
What does this have to do with Cherington? Is it that they'll have plenty of money to sign the next sandavol?
When he steals Sawdaye and Romero I'll start to get concerned. BC isn't responsible for the farm anymore than Jobs is for the iPhone. There's a large network underneath that deserves the credit that the head receives, as any business.
As to your DD remarks, they are beyond reactionary and superficial. The farm system won't rank as high next year because players have graduated. The ones he has traded were blocked and/or overrated (Kimbrel deal), possibly were a flash or were at least very far away and yet still a good trade (Pomeranz deal) or completely inconsequential (every other deal he's made). This has been covered, DD has very rarely traded a prospect that turns out to burn him in the long run.
Try to have something backing your position up and it will help.
His trades were Good to Meh - but his FA signings turned from Good to Disastrous, Porcello and Hanley excepted.
2012-13 Cherrington would give me pause. 2012-2015 does not bother me in the slightest.
I can't fault Cherington for leaving; he wanted "the big job" and was passed over. Either he hoped Sam Kennedy would get the President job and he could be the top dog in Baseball Ops, or he wanted to be President of Baseball Operations - either way, it was a crushing disappointment to have someone like Dombrowski brought in to be his supervisor.
But he is in the exact same job situation in Toronto as he would have been in Boston; reporting to a President of Baseball Operations who has strong ideas about what the major league roster should look like. Is Cherington better off managing Toronto's AAA shuttle and scouting potential middle relievers or would he have been better off sublimating his ego – "sucking it up and dealing" – and working with Dombrowski?
It is debatable. I think quitting in Boston is now an issue that he has to overcome in any future job opportunities. He'll need to answer an owner who asks "Why didn't you want to stay on in Boston?" It isn't a disqualifier - but it is an issue he'll have to address. Had he stayed in Boston, he'd get a slightly different question but an easier to answer one: "why didn't you leave?"
If he wants to earn the job he clearly wants - a President of Baseball Ops role - he has to (now) start (over) from the bottom. He'll be working on Toronto's AAA and minor league transactions, scouting for middle relievers, supervising the amateur scouts, and bringing ideas for the major league roster to Shapiro. That's the exact same role he would have had in Boston. Is Shapiro a better boss than Dombrowski? I dunno the answer to that. Shapiro is definitely "easier" to work for because he wasn't imported to "take your job" the way Dombrowski was.
Either way, good luck to Cherington. He's gonna need it, because he'll need to replicate his success in Boston with Toronto for several season in order to get a shot at the job he really wants. Had he stuck it out in Boston, I think he might have gotten some looks for President from Minnesota this offseason, based on the "turn around."
It's also likely that Ben decided, after a year out of the game, that he was OK playing Jed to Shapiro's Theo in Toronto. Maybe the time off convinced him that being second banana was alright after all.
I don't think that's right.
This year in Boston is showing how good Cherington is at building a farm.
Top President/GM jobs are high-talent jobs that are scarce. If you don't get one right away you go get another job and wait for an opportunity. That's what Cherington is doing. He'll get a shot at a top job eventually.
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What are you on about? Minnesota is currently looking for a top dog; Cherington didn't get a sniff for that job and his "strengths" would seem to align with their need.
I think Cherington would have gotten that interview in Minnesota had he sucked it up and dealt with Dombrowski for this year. But he chose not to. And that is now on his resume and is something owners are going to weigh heavily when considering whether he he should get an interview. He has to re-build his reputation in Toronto, working under a strong President of Baseball Ops.
Cherington gets little or no credit at all for Sox players playing well after he left the job. That's not how this works.
Barring extra information you might have, in my view nothing Cherington has done is disqualifying. At that experience level, it can be totally appropriate to leave after an outside candidate is brought in. And it depends on info we don't have. We can agree to disagree.
As for Minnesota, some rumors say Cherington declined to interview because their FO is a mess.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/09/multiple-front-office-candidates-have-declined-opportunity-to-interview-with-twins.html
What does that mean? Cherington didn't trade the prospects Theo drafted. He gets props for that, and for drafting/signing Moncada, Devers, Benintendi, Espinoza but did he truly "build" a farm? He was successful, but it's not like he came into the system in 2013 and loaded it up with good prospects, nor lateraled what we had for better fitting pieces (in terms of prospects). It's looking thin right now, especially in terms of pitching.
No way.
I'm not even sure that ordinary working folks are expected to take a demotion in stride. Maybe you suck it up and report for work in the short run because you need the paycheck, but you should be polishing your resume and looking for a new opportunity, even if it's lateral to your new (demoted) position, because the powers that be obviously aren't enamored of you. If you're still in that reduced role a year later, you're going to get some tough questions about that in your next job interview.
Executives certainly aren't expected to stick around following a demotion. In fact, it's rare that someone at BC's level of responsibility is even offered a demotion; usually, they are just fired. If BC had chosen to stay on, it might not have been a career-killer, but it would certainly have raised eyebrows and required explanation in all future job interviews. Choosing to leave is the expected decision; any tactful explanation he gives for that decision will be just fine.
Please show your work, re: demotion. He was reporting to a President who, per the owner, "runs the Red Sox" and was so notoriously hands-on that the previous wunderkind decamped for Chicago rather than keep working for him for a few years in exchange for his dream job. Cherington was asked to stay in the same role, with basically the same responsibilities, reporting to a new boss. He was not "demoted."
I would have quit if I were Cherington. I am in no way arguing that professional pride is not a factor; Cherington wanted the promotion, he did not get it, and rather than stay in the same role, he quit. He was not demoted.
As for the quoted section, he'll definitely get asked why he chose to quit rather than be a team player. As I said, it won't be a deciding factor question in a future interview - but it will be asked and he better have a good answer that is better than "I didn't want to work with Dave."
I see this type of comment a lot around here and I don't really get it.
Lucchino was the President and CEO of the Red Sox, looking after the business side and also sticking his nose into baseball ops when he felt like it (in other words, "having a hand in baseball operations", as this Boston Herald article says). The "runs the Red Sox" comment means running the organisation, not just - or necessarily - the on-field team. Lucchino didn't build the Red Sox baseball teams when Theo or Ben were there. He was not the architect of the teams. He could overrule when he wanted to (and obviously did on certain occasions, Valentine being an obvious one), but his other responsibilities were so vast that baseball ops was just one part of what he did.
Dombrowski is different. He is the President of Baseball Operations and all his work is baseball ops and none business. He is a GM with a new and fancy title. He is responsible for the team the Red Sox put on the field. Most of Lucchino's old job has gone to Kennedy, and some of it to Dombrowski. Do you really think that Lucchino was as hands-on in baseball ops on a day-to-day basis as Dombrowski is? Or put another way: if the Red Sox win the WS this year, who will get credit for building the WS winner? The answer is Dombrowski. But the answer for 2004/07/13 is not Lucchino. It's Theo and Ben.
So Cherington was not asked to stay in the same role. His original role was as a GM under a nosy President. The new role offered was essentially as an assistant GM. It was absolutely a demotion as I see it.
Sure. But I look at it the same way that it's looked at in say the NBA. They've never really grabbed a big free agent in the last 20 or so years unless you consider BJ Ryan as a top prize which back then he was. I don't think the media will be dissecting every move Ben makes like Boston media did. Northeast baseball fans are the most rabid out there.
I would understand your point if BC was offered the same role, just with another layer between him and ownership. But that's so obviously not the case that I'm having trouble responding to your point -- titles aside, you don't really believe that Mike Hazen has the same job that Theo Epstein once did, do you?
DD is doing the job that BC (and Theo before him) once did, perhaps with a bit of LL's old job thrown in. Maybe DD has more authority than his predecessors did, or maybe Henry and Werner are more active now that LL is gone.
I guess this comes down to what level of autonomy you think Theo had. That he now resides in Chicago as opposed to remaining with the team he grew up rooting for, and the team he was personally assured by the owner he would "run" when Larry retired - suggests to me that Larry had much more involvement than you're crediting to his account.
I personally don't think Theo or Ben had much, if any, autonomy while working under Larry. They may have been free to manage the Pawtucket Shuttle. They may have been free to decide on fringe, "lottery ticket", low-cost free agents. They may have had autonomy on which middle relievers to pursue. I think that's why Theo left and I think that's why Ben didn't want to work "under" another strong President. They did not have autonomy to pursue and sign "big money" free agents. They did not have autonomy to make big trades - involving big contracts - without Larry.
I'm totally open to considering evidence that Larry was not running the Red Sox, but I gotta tell you - I have reams of evidence he was, right down to a quote from his boss saying exactly that. Similarly, I am totally open to someone - anyone - giving me a source stating that Dombrowski is a micro-manager on Larry's level, or that he was going to "demote" Cherington.
Dombrowski would not have had to demote Cherington himself, as his very hiring at the top of baseball operations was already enough to demote Cherington.
Here's a quote from Dombrowski from USA Today showing how Cherington's role would have changed:
"As president of baseball operations, you have control over making deals, and the final say in hiring. I understand it would be a transition with him (Cherington)."
Some media reporting of the story with my emphasis in bold:
Sports on Earth: The Red Sox hired someone above Cherington, which, in effect, meant a demotion.
Grantland: Dombrowski had offered to keep him as the team’s GM, but Cherington, who’d been with the franchise since 1999, opted to step down instead since the move essentially removed his power.
Boston Globe: Why embarrass Cherington with what essentially would be a demotion?
USA Today: To be technically correct, Cherington could have stayed in his job, in title only. Yet to suddenly go from being the man in charge to asking whether Dombrowski wanted cream or sugar in his coffee, he couldn't accept the demotion and still look at himself in the mirror each morning.
That's... not evidence of a "demotion." Cherington didn't have final say in hiring (hi Bobby!) and he didn't have control over making deals. Learning to work with Dombrowski instead of Lucchino would have been a "transition."
In effect, no. Cherington HAD someone over him, and would have again. That's not a demotion. (link goes to the definition of the word)
Well, this is promising. But since there's no details about what "power" is being removed - and since I've already explicitly stated that Cherington did not have the power to sign big money FA or make trades or hire managers ... what are we talking about?
Again, this is useless. He was not re-titled "Dombrowski's Coffee Boy" or "Farm Director." Cherington retained his title. He retained many of his previous responsibilities.
There has yet to be one iota of proof he was "demoted."
Well, technically correct is the best kind of correct.
But what was Cherington "in charge of" before Dombrowski was hired? Anyone got a link detailing that? Or is this yet another round of "anything good was Ben (or Theo), anything bad was Larry"? Have we not played that game so many times before?
Again, if someone has a source saying "Cherington was responsible for X, Y, and Z - in that, he did not report to or need Lucchino's consent or approval" - I am ready, willing, and looking forward to it. But allow me to save you the time - no such thing exists. Any "autonomy" that Cherington had was a fiction - largely created by people who don't like, and don't want to credit Lucchino. BC reported to LL. He had ideas he took to Lucchino for approval. He had a trade worked out with another team? Run it by Larry before calling it into the league office.
Unless Dombrowski explicitly told him "you will not speak to anyone outside the organization without my express written consent"... then I don't know what we're even talking about this for. BC could have had the same role under DD than he had under LL. He chose not to. That's a reasonable choice. But I'm not going to pretend that LL wasn't the most hands-on, "runs the Red Sox" boss in this history of bosses - especially when BC wouldn't have had his General Manager title without Theo chafing under the same operating agreement and leaving because he didn't have autonomy from Larry. There's no way on earth John Henry gave BC the autonomy he would not grant Theo, even at the very end. Larry ran the Red Sox. Now Dave runs the Red Sox. Ben just worked here and he could have done the same things for Dave that he did for Larry. End of story.