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Tyler Thornborg Injury Watch

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by Trautwein's Degree, Mar 20, 2017 at 4:59 PM.

  1. Trautwein's Degree

    Trautwein's Degree a Connecticut bicycle attorney in General Motor's Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    As reported by Ian Browne of MLB.com on Saturday, Red Sox manager John Farrell is already talking about replacements for Thornburg in the eighth inning if he isn’t ready for the start of the season, naming Joe Kelly as a prime candidate. Thornburg hasn’t pitched in a Spring Training game since March 1; he allowed seven earned runs in 1.1 spring innings before being shut down. Link
    The article goes on to make a great point. The Red Sox have spent an awful lot on relievers that haven't helped them or have under performed under Dombrowski.

    In light of questionable reliever trades, it’s also worth bringing up the haul that the San Diego Padres got from the Red Sox for closer Craig Kimbrel. The centerpiece of the deal was outfielder Manuel Margot, who is currently ranked No. 23 on MLB.com’s Top 100 Prospects list. The package also included minor-league prospects Logan Allen, Carlos Asuaje, and Javier Guerra. Kimbrel was good, but not his usual dominant self in his first season with the Red Sox, recording 31 saves with a 3.40 ERA and missing time in the middle of the season with a knee injury.

    In total, the Red Sox have traded away nine players for what’s supposed to be the top-three spots in their bullpen (plus Elias). That’s a lot to give up for three pitchers who have all had their share of injury issues in recent years.
    Bullpen depth could be the achilles heal of this team. It's worth keeping an eye on Thornborg's progress or lack of progress. Given that he hasn't pitched in 3 weeks it is hard to imagine he breaks camp with the Sox.
     
  2. Rasputin

    Rasputin Will outlive SeanBerry Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Bullpen depth could be the achilles heal of every team, even those with outstanding bullpens. Bullpen arms--with very few exceptions--are inherently unpredictable. Thornburg isn't likely to start the season with the big club. Carson Smith won't start the season with the big club.

    You'd probably want Kelly and Barnes to be the fourth and fifth options rather than the second and third, but it's not like they're disastrous options.
     
  3. RIrooter09

    RIrooter09 Member SoSH Member

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    Which is why trading away top prospects for them is usually a fool's errand. Our last two GM's have been too quick to deplete the farm system in order to acquire "proven" relievers. You'd think Dombrowski would have learned his lesson from the Smith trade, but Thornburg appears to be a complete re-hash of that situation. Building a bullpen has always been Dealin' Dave's Achilles heel.
     
  4. grimshaw

    grimshaw the new rudy SoSH Member

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    It's a mixed bag right now, IMO, but I don't think Ian Brown dug too deep when he just threw out the 9 players thing. I thought Kimbrel was an overpay at the time - or at least a misuse of resourcces, but Margot may be the only one of the four to play regularly. Asuaje is already 25 and has only played a few games in the majors, and no guaranteed spot this year . . . on the Padres., and Guerra ops'd .under .600 last year.

    Craig wasn't the Kimbrel from the NL East, but I'll take my chances with him.

    The Ziegler deal was great. The Abad deal hasn't helped them, but they gave up nothing of consequence and he costs them peanuts on the cap. Wade Miley was awful last year.

    If Thornburg had some wear and tear in the medicals, on top of what they did to get Pomeranz and Smith, then I would criticize that a whole lot more, but it's way too early to tell on Tyler yet.

    Dubon and Margot are the two to watch before we can decide how much DD thought he was giving up.
     
    #4 grimshaw, Mar 20, 2017 at 5:32 PM
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017 at 5:45 PM
  5. Rasputin

    Rasputin Will outlive SeanBerry Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Going into the season with a shallow bullpen is also a fool's errand. Every single thing you can do in regards to a bullpen is a fool's errand. That's just how it works.
     
  6. OurF'ingCity

    OurF'ingCity lurker

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    I think you can fairly criticize the Thornburg trade for giving up too many prospects for a player with an already-established injury history, but don't see how it's a "complete re-hash" of the Smith trade, as the Red Sox only gave up a middle-tier starter in Wade Miley and a C-level prospect and Smith, to my knowledge, had shown no signs that he was in danger of a serious injury.

    You can criticize the Dombrowski approach, but not sure any other strategy is any more likely to produce a good bullpen - if you never trade for relievers and purely promote in-house you are risking not having enough viable options when necessary, and if you just try to go bargain-shopping you run the risk of just having a crappy bullpen even if everyone does stay healthy. At least the Dombrowski approach carries a high upside. Whether that upside is worth what it costs is, of course, the key question and one that I'm not sure is answerable.
     
  7. DeadlySplitter

    DeadlySplitter Member SoSH Member

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    Smith's TJ was pretty foreseeable, but this offseason conditioning difference for Thornburg is bizarre.

    Also we know what Travis Shaw is. If Dubon doesn't pan out, we really didn't lose anything in the trade.
     
  8. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    The linked article has a lot of questionable assertions, and the writer loses a ton of credibility when he asserts the Red Sox shoulder program somehow caused Thornburgh's injury.

    Margot plus minor league fodder is exactly what you need to give up if you want to get a proven relief ace. The alternative is to either find one on the free agent market or hope one of your prospects can turn into one. None of those approaches is risk free, and last I looked Kimbrel played a pretty significant role in the Sox winning the AL East.

    And, yes, Carson Smith is a trade you'd do all over again, as I'm not convinced anyone could have predicted he would have blown out his elbow when he did.
     
  9. TonyPenaNeverJuiced

    TonyPenaNeverJuiced Member SoSH Member

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    If Kelly pitches like he did as a RP last year, I have no problem with him being option #2 in the pen.
     
  10. MikeM

    MikeM Member SoSH Member

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    Let's not forget the fact that we are also currently sitting on 3 starting outfield options. All of which have multiple years of team control left, and none that I'd personally want to see the Sox move in favor of making playing time room for Margot.

    Outside the prospect people that really love those ranking #'s just to have/hug them, I don't see much of a "really wish we had this one back" factor surrounding that particular trade.
     
  11. johnnywayback

    johnnywayback Member SoSH Member

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    Sorry, but this drives me nuts. The people bothered by the Kimbrel trade (both at the time and now): 1) worried that Kimbrel's peripherals had begun to decline and that he was becoming a very good, but no longer top-shelf, reliever; 2) shared the industry-wide opinion that the package we gave up was a significant overpay -- that we should have been able to get Kimbrel for, say, just Margot, Guerra, and a third piece of no consequence, and that if the Padres balked at that, we should have walked away. The idea isn't that we wanted to "have/hug" our ranking #s, it's that we wanted to have those assets available for other trades. If we hadn't traded Logan Allen for Kimbrel, he could have been part of the Sale package instead of Victor Diaz. If we hadn't traded Asuaje, we might still have Dubon.

    Somewhat back on topic: All pitchers carry heightened injury risk, which should be priced in. Which is why we got Carson Smith for a vastly less talented pitcher. And which is why we got Tyler Thornburg (whom I will forever think of as THORNBORG) for three guys who didn't project to start for a first-division team. It sucks if he got hurt in the shoulder program, and maybe it suggests that we need to take another look at how pitchers are onboarded, but I don't think it points to a failure on Dombrowski's part the same way Kimbrel's continuing decline does.
     
  12. Trotsky

    Trotsky Member SoSH Member

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    I just hope that if Kelly can turn into the dominant lefty bullpen ace we all think and hope he can be... that DD inks him to a long-term contract at around $10million per year. Letting Miller go (I get that the trade netted a potential ace.. but I think we could have opened the pocketbooks a little more and got him for what the Yankees offered... was a major mistake on Ben's part and I fear DD doing the same when we finally develop a dominant BP arm
     
  13. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I'm 103% certain that this won't happen
     
  14. JohntheBaptist

    JohntheBaptist Member SoSH Member

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    I have some really bummer news, man.
     
  15. The Filthy One

    The Filthy One Member SoSH Member

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    Though, to be fair, if I had to put money on one pitcher on the Sox roster suddenly deciding to throw with the other arm, Kelly would be it.
     
  16. Rice4HOF

    Rice4HOF Member SoSH Member

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    There already one amphibious pitcher in the league (Venditte), why not another one?
     
  17. Ramon AC

    Ramon AC Member SoSH Member

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    Trotsky wishes everyone was a lefty.
     
  18. HriniakPosterChild

    HriniakPosterChild Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    When did Venditte last breathe water?
     
  19. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    He's in Philly now; he might as well sleep with the fishes
     
  20. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I know we're supposed to be avoiding one liners and contentless posting, but holy fuck. This is good.
     
  21. Trotsky

    Trotsky Member SoSH Member

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    I meant it as in which side of the pitcher from the catchers perspective duh!
     
  22. Rice4HOF

    Rice4HOF Member SoSH Member

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    I thought it was common knowledge?
     
  23. Hendu for Kutch

    Hendu for Kutch Member SoSH Member

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    He IS a submariner...

    Anyone heard anything on how Thornburg's sim game session went yesterday?
     
  24. HriniakPosterChild

    HriniakPosterChild Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Shame on me for not seeing that.
     

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