Tyrone wants to fire Farrell

[bankshot1]

Its not Farrel's fault Ortiz retired, and that Panda/X/Hanley/Mitchy etal have not picked up the power slack in the middle of the line-up

And its not his fault that Kelly, who catchs a lot of shit here, but who had become a pretty good 8th inning guy, pulled his hammy and went down 3 weeks ago, and which to my mind screwed up the bullpen and led to some tough losses.

And there are lots of of game left and there is no time like the present to kick it into a higher gear.

 

[Doctor G]

The problem I have with Farrell is inconsistency in offensive approach. Theycare aggressive on the base paths, and patient at the plate. How often does Farrell credit offensive success to maintaining our approach. The only good two strike hitter was Bogaerts. Coincdently he is the one whose power has disappeared.

I would rather see fewe hitters hitting with two strike counts.

 

[grimshaw]

I subscribe to your thesis.

This team has a failed roster - that isn't Farrell's fault. I'm not really a Farrell guy but he isn't costing this team too many extra wins that anyone else in his spot would.

The construction of this team is subpar imo. That's on management.

I disagree. 7 of the 9 guys in the lineup were returning from a complete juggernaut offense and the only position to upgrade was DH with some aging bat. Encarnacion has been good, but that would have hamstrung the roster and gotten very close to the luxury tax.

3b has been rehashed ad nauseum - that part of it was definitely poor roster management but 3 guys got hurt.

Pitching (bullpen in particular) could not have worked out any better considering their two top set up guys got hurt.

 

[grimshaw]

The biggest thing which none of us can put our finger on is the volatility from year to year during the Farrell era:

How do you assess Farrell's roll in:
Rick Porcello going bleh, to Cy Young to meh.
Or Hanley going from awful, to solid, to meh at best.
Or with Chris Young going from the perfect platoon bat to liability.
Or Sandoval being the worst player in baseball after being a solid regular
And good Buchholz vs. bad Buchholz
Or Victorino, Napoli and Peavey dying after the 2013 season
Or Xander's Jekyl and Hyde
Or the whiffs on catcher development and 5 non-aces
Or Pedey's health issues
Or being the best baserunning team in baseball, to whatever this years version is with better personnel.
Or Papi saving his best for last.
Most importantly going first, to two years in last, to first, to underachieving Golden State Warriors.

By any reasonable logic it is a mixture of aging, overachieving, underachieving, luck, mental and physical preparedness, miscommunication. coaching and receptiveness to coaching. If it is the latter three, then maybe it is time for a change, but only the front office knows that.

 

[uk_sox_fan]

I find it extraordinary that people want to fire Davis (let alone Farrell). If you blame him for the offense underperforming recently then don't you have to give him credit for the improvements the offense made in his first two seasons with the club?

E.g. JBJ and XB posted OPS+ numbers in 2013 and 2014 of 68/49 for JBJ and 87/83 for Xander. Since then JBJ has posted 119/118/106 and Xman 107/111/96. Dusty went from 115/99 to 112/117/109 despite the effects of aging. Even Chris Young went from 82/95 to 109/121/89. Betts became a superstar on his watch, Papi defied Father Time, León exploded on the scene from nowhere and even Mitch Moreland took a huge leap up before breaking his toe.

Of course there's the flip side with Panda (who is pretty hard to pin on Davis) and Hanley (who when he has struggled it's usually been related to injury) and he hasn't been able to do anything much for Vaz, but all in all I think his complete body of work is pretty impressive (if you use the same criteria - change in batters' performances from previous seasons - that you're using to criticise the guy)

The bottom line is this. When you fire a guy who has done good work for years and has had a tough couple of months what are you trying to accomplish? Do you really want everyone trying a brand new approach at the plate that they haven't trained for and aren't familiar with as you head down the stretch? Do you want to create a "nobody's safe" atmosphere in the clubhouse when your competitors are cultivating teamwork and cohesion? What makes you think the next guy has a magic formula that will work? And if no one can work with him what do you do then?

The only time since 2003 that I would advocate replacing a coach/manager in-season was with Bobby V (I despised Grady Little and John McNamara for that matter, but if I'm being honest it wouldn't have made sense to can them midseason either) but Bobby was such an exceptional misfit that I think he shows how bad things need to be before it makes sense to create that much disruption.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Farrell is playing the hand he's been dealt.

Aren't all managers?

Kirk Gibson was also playing the hand he was dealt with the D-Backs for a few years but got relieved of his duties. Same with Chip Hale. Same with Matt Williams in Washington. Now, apparently, Arizona got the right guy in Lovullo. The Nats are doing fine with Dusty Baker, to the probable amazement of some here. Ironic that there are two teams in the NL that have made a dramatic positive turnaround this year: the D-backs with Lovullo, who was ours, and the Rockies with a guy who was probably the most popular on SOSH as a replacement if they went outside to get rid of Farrell, Bud Black.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

They're 8 games over .500 with a $200 million payroll(mediocre). He's managed for 7 seasons with win totaling 81, 73, 97, 71, 78, 93, and currently 56. 50% of the seasons he's managed have been 70 win seasons. His most successful season was 5 seasons ago. Short of an ALCS victory he's 100% done in Boston.

This is such a weak argument. His years in Toronto don't really matter because he didn't have good rosters there. It's not like the teams were drastically underperforming their Pythag records. In 2011 they were 2 games under and had a pretty crappy pen. That team has 4 regulars with below league average bats. In 2012 they finished a game above their Pythag with 7 players who were below a 100 OPS+.

Those were bad teams.

Click for a more detailed breakdown of the 2013-2015 Sox. Summary below.

Spoiler

With the Red Sox he's had two division titles and a World Series win in his first four years. But that doesn't tell the whole story. In 2012 the Red Sox hit the reset button hard. They committed to a long rebuild and to developing a new young core. That process was supposed to take 2-3 seasons, but they got really lucky and Cherington hit on basically every move that winter. Career years out of Victorino and Koji, a better than expected season out of Gomes, Napoli had a big year and his hip didn't collapse, Stephen Drew panned out for that year... hell, even Mike Carp was huge for them. Everything worked and they drastically outperformed expectations.

Then, in 2014 the bulk of that group regressed back toward expectations and some of them declined a bit, leaving the Sox as more of the middling team they were expected to be in 2013. And all the while, the kids were still developing. They were STILL a rebuilding team in 2014, so it shouldn't be surprising that they weren't that good. So at mid-season they sold and had a worse 2nd half than their 1st, finishing with the 7th pick in the draft (which became Benintendi, btw).

2015 was the first season where Cherington thought they might be ready to start buying in on longer term pieces and he signed Hanley and Panda in the winter. Obviously Panda was a bad idea. Hanley was defensible and has been decent overall, but Panda pushed him to LF where he was atrocious and in 2015, he was pretty worthless. They signed Rusney later that year, and he was bad as well. They also tried that "who's the ace?" rotation thing that didn't work much better than signing Pablo.

So Farrell had a team that was looking like it's new core could be on the cusp (but wasn't quite there), that added some questionable to bad major league talent and, surprise, they had a shitty 1st half (.472 win percentage) and sold on Napoli, but mostly rode it out. The kids, who weren't quite ready to start the year, started clicking as a core in the second half and they finished the season much stronger (.493) and left us with hope for 2016.

How either of those two seasons are the fault of the manager is beyond me. But they followed up with a 2016 where the additions of Kimbrel and Price were enough that they won another division title despite the rotation being crushed by injuries and underperformance in the pen after Kimbrel.

TL;DR

So we have two winning seasons (the first of which was wildly better than anyone had a right to expect) and two down years during a period where they weren't supposed to be that good in the first place. Now we have a team a half game out of 1st even after an atrocious month of July. So that's 2.5 successful/winning seasons in his first 4.5 years. You'll forgive me if I insist on something more than this to convince me that Farrell is on the verge of being fired.

As long as this team makes the playoffs, I think he's back. If they make the ALDS, he's absolutely the manager in 2018. And I'm not really a big Farrell fan. If they think they can upgrade in the winter and go in another direction, I'm not going to shed any tears. But the Farrell hate around here is preposterous.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

While it may have been more prevalent decades ago, I suspect managers aren't doing much with individual players on fundamentals or mechanics, especially in-season. As such, if players are underperforming their potential, its because they are having issues with mechanics or are injured or its simply random performance volatility. To the extent that its fixable, the players are more responsible for that than a manager. Different coaches may make a difference but I strongly suspect each MLB hitter or pitcher works with their "guy" and not necessarily the team coach on those fixes (as a side note, its staggering how many ex-ballplayers make a decent living off of kids playing youth, high school and college baseball).

Furthermore, baseball is a sport where firey speeches may look great and may, at the margin, refocus a player or two. However if a hitter cannot make adjustments to hit a certain type of pitch or if a pitcher cannot hit their spots, motivational talks aren't going to do anything to fix that.

In short, a manager's main jobs are line-ups (in conjunction with the FO as we know now), in game strategy, managing the clubhouse, working with the FO and dealing with the media. Its fair to take issue with Farrell for any those things but unless he is actively pissing players off ala Valentine, he really shouldn't be held responsible for individual performance.

 

[soxin6]

I usually think back to 2015 when I think about Farrell. While Farrell was managing the Red Sox, they went 50 - 64 (.439). While Lovullo was managing the team, they went 28 - 20 (.583). Was it that the kids just turned it on or was it that Lovullo was a better manager than Farrell. My guess is that it is a little of both, but I had hoped they would move Farrell into the front office and make Lovullo the manager that offseason.

I don't think that making the playoffs is enough for Farrell to keep his job. There is also no guarantee that they are able to make the playoffs and that will certainly lead to Farrell being fired.

 

[UncleStinkfinger]

They need to just do it. They've conceded first so there is a decent excuse. Farrell won't be here soon enough, so lets just get on with it.

 

[Moviegoer]

...In short, a manager's main jobs are line-ups (in conjunction with the FO as we know now), in game strategy, managing the clubhouse, working with the FO and dealing with the media. Its fair to take issue with Farrell for any those things but unless he is actively pissing players off ala Valentine, he really shouldn't be held responsible for individual performance.

Even though he's better this year than in previous years, he's still terrible with in game decisions, adding to the long list of dubious at best calls on a pretty regular basis.
And with the Eck/ Price incident, he appears to be pretty bad controlling the clubhouse, otherwise he should have cut that off from happening—if he even knew it was brewing beforehand, which would also be a failure if he hadn't.
He seems to do well with the FO and with the media at least. But even if he was as slick as an antebellum Senator with his bosses and journalists, it hardly would make up for his glaring deficiencies in the two areas you list where he is undeniably bad.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

They need to just do it. They've conceded first so there is a decent excuse. Farrell won't be here soon enough, so lets just get on with it.

You think being a half game out of the division lead and having the 4th best record in the AL is a valid excuse for firing a manager?

Good lord. Please stop polluting this board with this incessant nonsense.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

The bottom line is this. When you fire a guy who has done good work for years and has had a tough couple of months what are you trying to accomplish? Do you really want everyone trying a brand new approach at the plate that they haven't trained for and aren't familiar with as you head down the stretch? Do you want to create a "nobody's safe" atmosphere in the clubhouse when your competitors are cultivating teamwork and cohesion?

Who has done good work for years? Farrell? He's had as many 70 win seasons as he's had 90 win season. One of his 70 win seasons he missed the a chunk of the 2nd half when he went in for treatment so in reality it's more like 50 wins. That team went on a nice run. They get to the playoffs last year and were completely overmatched. He's had 2 good seasons managing the Sox 2 disasters and this season is a WIP. Why people are almost claiming he's a good manager I'll never understand.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You think being a half game out of the division lead and having the 4th best record in the AL is a valid excuse for firing a manager?

Good lord. Please stop polluting this board with this incessant nonsense.

On the surface no. You're correct. But you can't sit here and say the team hasn't underperformed in a huge way. This team is on a major slide. This team is the worst team in baseball since the beginning of the ASB. That's alarming. They really need to come out of the next two games with wins. Otherwise they then slide to the 2nd WC spot and potentially almost being passed by Tampa. Like it or not with this payroll the team should be performing a lot better.

 

[E5 Yaz]

You think being a half game out of the division lead and having the 4th best record in the AL is a valid excuse for firing a manager?

Good lord. Please stop polluting this board with this incessant nonsense.

Forget it, Snod. It's SoSHtown

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Who has done good work for years? Farrell? He's had as many 70 win seasons as he's had 90 win season. One of his 70 win seasons he missed the a chunk of the 2nd half when he went in for treatment so in reality it's more like 50 wins. That team went on a nice run. They get to the playoffs last year and were completely overmatched. He's had 2 good seasons managing the Sox 2 disasters and this season is a WIP. Why people are almost claiming he's a good manager I'll never understand.

Scroll up. The 70 win seasons argument is garbage and I explained why in some detail.

On the surface no. You're correct. But you can't sit here and say the team hasn't underperformed in a huge way. This team is on a major slide. This team is the worst team in baseball since the beginning of the ASB. That's alarming. They really need to come out of the next two games with wins. Otherwise they then slide to the 2nd WC spot and potentially almost being passed by Tampa. Like it or not with this payroll the team should be performing a lot better.

They're on a cold streak. No argument there. But teams have them all the time. Even good teams. They hadn't lost more than 3 straight all year until recently. And you are never as bad as your cold streaks just like you are never as good as your hot streaks.

If you think there is anything other than a 0% chance that Farrell could be fired at any point before the last two weeks of the season (and even then, only if they've fallen completely out of contention), I don't know what to tell you. But the chances they fire Farrell any time soon are exactly 0%. Suggesting anything else is a petulant tantrum mixed with some hefty wish casting.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Forget it, Snod. It's SoSHtown

You've got a nasty reputation, Mr. Yaz. I like that.

 

[soxin6]

They need to just do it. They've conceded first so there is a decent excuse. Farrell won't be here soon enough, so lets just get on with it.

If the Sox were to do what you suggest, who becomes the manager? To fire the manager when the team is 1 game out of first means that you have someone to bring in that would instantly propel them to a winning streak. If you don't have that, there is no point in firing Farrell.

 

[joe dokes]

You've got a nasty reputation, Mr. Yaz. I like that.

Some people say he a cruel dude.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Some people say he a cruel dude.

He's ruthless. He's crude.

 

[redsox2020]

People truly believe the team is underperforming because Farrell isn't giving enough rah rah speeches or intimidating players into being All Stars? Sure that works great in the movies, but let's not overestimate the real world impact. And if we're gonna make these kind of claims, can we at least back them up with some evidence?

 

[Harry Hooper]

The biggest thing which none of us can put our finger on is the volatility from year to year during the Farrell era:

How do you assess Farrell's roll in:
Rick Porcello going bleh, to Cy Young to meh.
Or Hanley going from awful, to solid, to meh at best.
Or with Chris Young going from the perfect platoon bat to liability.
Or Sandoval being the worst player in baseball after being a solid regular
And good Buchholz vs. bad Buchholz
Or Victorino, Napoli and Peavey dying after the 2013 season
Or Xander's Jekyl and Hyde
Or the whiffs on catcher development and 5 non-aces
Or Pedey's health issues
Or being the best baserunning team in baseball, to whatever this years version is with better personnel.
Or Papi saving his best for last.
Most importantly going first, to two years in last, to first, to underachieving Golden State Warriors.

Let's give this a shot:

Porcello - 2016 was his career year. It happens.
Hanley - Physical issues drive his results
Young - Blah hitter as position player, fine hitter as PH, but strangely struggles in DH role?
Buchholz - Struggles may have started with a physical issue where he faced a dilemma: pitch effectively and aggravate his neck/shoulder problem, or change his motion to avoid irritation and pitch less effectively.
Victorino - Arrived as a ticking time bomb - Pete Reiser v. 2.0 - and burned up his remaining fuse.
Napoli - Not really dead in 2014
Peavey - no idea on him
Bogaerts - Worrisome Aug/Sept in 2016, fatigue cited as a factor but seemed to give away too many ABs for his talent level
Catcher Development - Historically an organizational strength, no idea
Pitcher Development - Historically not an organizational strength, no news
Pedroia - What Artis Gilmore told Larry Bird
More aggressive baserunning - Right idea for 2017 club's offense, but not great execution
Papi - sui generis
First to Last to First - If you can't finish first... Organizational philosophy was to strip-mine struggling club for future assets, but not great execution.

OK, you can link Ferrell to Young {stop putting him at DH}, and some portion of the blame pie for catcher development {role in Swihart saga?}, baserunning, and last-place finishes. You fire a manager who is one game out of 1st place, though, and the only replacements who will take the job will likely be desperate candidates such as BobbyV.

 

[grimshaw]

That's all reasonable. I'm basically saying that an unusual amount of strange shit has happened where player performance hasn't matched expectations, and trying to apportion blame to everything that has gone wrong over the past 5 seasons is futile. It is still coming down to managing players personalities and the clubhouse more than anything. I wouldn't fire him this late in the season.

 

[joe dokes]

People truly believe the team is underperforming because Farrell isn't giving enough rah rah speeches or intimidating players into being All Stars? Sure that works great in the movies, but let's not overestimate the real world impact. And if we're gonna make these kind of claims, can we at least back them up with some evidence?

He'll never top this, so why bother?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Scroll up. The 70 win seasons argument is garbage and I explained why in some detail.



They're on a cold streak. No argument there. But teams have them all the time. Even good teams. They hadn't lost more than 3 straight all year until recently. And you are never as bad as your cold streaks just like you are never as good as your hot streaks.

If you think there is anything other than a 0% chance that Farrell could be fired at any point before the last two weeks of the season (and even then, only if they've fallen completely out of contention), I don't know what to tell you. But the chances they fire Farrell any time soon are exactly 0%. Suggesting anything else is a petulant tantrum mixed with some hefty wish casting.

So the 2015 season where they were absolutely horrible didn't count? Did they overachieve in 2013? I don't think you'll find a sane person that would disagree. That was one of those years where everything clicked. Even still that was on paper a team that probably wins 80-82 games. The following year they underperformed a little. The year after Farrell and Ben thought Hanley in LF would be a great idea. He was the right manager at the right time in 2013. In 2017 he isn't. The team needs to show improvement this year and right now there's been none.

If this gets worse and I mean say losing 2 out of 3 in their next 3 series then they're going to have to start considering it. Problem is I'm not sure they have anyone on staff that would be an upgrade. Would need to bring someone in from the outside.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

So the 2015 season where they were absolutely horrible didn't count? Did they overachieve in 2013? I don't think you'll find a sane person that would disagree. That was one of those years where everything clicked. Even still that was on paper a team that probably wins 80-82 games. The following year they underperformed a little. The year after Farrell and Ben thought Hanley in LF would be a great idea. He was the right manager at the right time in 2013. In 2017 he isn't. The team needs to show improvement this year and right now there's been none.

If this gets worse and I mean say losing 2 out of 3 in their next 3 series then they're going to have to start considering it. Problem is I'm not sure they have anyone on staff that would be an upgrade. Would need to bring someone in from the outside.

I don't think I need a day or two; you're dumber than you think I think y'are.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I don't think I need a day or two; you're dumber than you think I think y'are.

Here's a question. What has Farrell done that warrants him staying past this year? Because I'm going to be steadfast in that the team needs a new voice and you're going to be in the corner of he's the guy for this team.

 

[uncannymanny]

I love it when it gets to the "you can't say", "prove me wrong" stage.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Here's a question. What has Farrell done that warrants him staying past this year? Because I'm going to be steadfast in that the team needs a new voice and you're going to be in the corner of he's the guy for this team.

He's been the manager of two division winners in four years, one of which was in a season they weren't expected to win at all, has a WS ring with the club, has the team squarely in the playoff hunt this year and consistently gets votes of confidence from the front office.

What have you got besides "they were bad in those years they weren't supposed to be very good in anyway"?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I love it when it gets to the "you can't say", "prove me wrong" stage.

Team is dangerously close to falling into 3rd in the division and has had the worst record in baseball since right before the break. At some point the manager has to take some of the blame.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Team is dangerously close to falling into 3rd in the division and has had the worst record in baseball since right before the break. At some point the manager has to take some of the blame.

So a three week sample?

Yeah, I think we're done here.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

He's been the manager of two division winners in four years, one of which was in a season they weren't expected to win at all, has a WS ring with the club, has the team squarely in the playoff hunt this year and consistently gets votes of confidence from the front office.

What have you got besides "they were bad in those years they weren't supposed to be very good in anyway"?

He's also been the manager of two underachieving teams and potentially a 3rd. Yes I get that 2014 wasn't supposed to be a playoff year but it was a massive let down regardless. 2015 was awful and the only reason that they got close to .500 always Farrell had to take a leave of absence and the team played with heart. Having a team in playoff contention is great provided you don't have a 200 million dollar payroll. Media reports of the players not liking him has leaked out this season. No actual team leader. No accountability for anyone on this team. Letting Hanley dictate his playing time at 1st this year when Moreland should be glued to the bench. I mean other than that I guess he's done a great job this year.

 

[tims4wins]

Two errors, a wild pitch, and a passed ball this inning. JF, leader of men

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

So a three week sample?

Yeah, I think we're done here.

It's going on almost a month for this year. Again the Sox are no lock to even make the playoffs when they could have easily given themselves some distance against NY and TB. I mean you think Farrell is great and I respect your opinion. I just don't see it given the roster assembled, the budget the team has and the results shown thus far.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

It's going on almost a month for this year. Again the Sox are no lock to even make the playoffs when they could have easily given themselves some distance against NY and TB. I mean you think Farrell is great and I respect your opinion. I just don't see it given the roster assembled, the budget the team has and the results shown thus far.

I have not argued that Farrell is great. I won't, either. Because I don't think he is. But arguing he is going to be or needs to be fired before the end of the season is incredibly dumb. Basing it on their record since the break is staggeringly so.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Two errors, a wild pitch, and a passed ball this inning. JF, leader of men

Stuff like that happens.

 

[j44thor]

Two errors, a wild pitch, and a passed ball this inning. JF, leader of men

Tampa Bay has had two of the worst plays all year last two days where two infielders watched a groundball go by them. One directly costing a game and the other contributing heavily to loss . Kevin Cash probably didn't want that to happen but no amount of coaching can fix stupid.

 

[PaSox]

So on top of what everybody is wondering what DD is going to do at the trade deadline, he has also had the time to figure out who the manager will be when he decides to fire JF

 

[joe dokes]

Has Herrera gotten into Saturday nights game yet?

 

[oumbi]

Two errors, a wild pitch, and a passed ball this inning. JF, leader of men

You might have posted in the wrong thread. This thread is about Farrell and his coaching. Your points aren't.

 

[Al Zarilla]

I have not argued that Farrell is great. I won't, either. Because I don't think he is. But arguing he is going to be or needs to be fired before the end of the season is incredibly dumb. Basing it on their record since the break is staggeringly so.

Snod, you have your heels dug in further on this one than anyone since the Japanese up until "Fat Man" was dropped on Nagasaki. I think you're right though. He won't be canned this season barring a scandal or a team revolt or something. 10 game losing streak, maybe they think about it. After all Dombrowski came out back in May, it must have been, when the team was around .500 for awhile, and defended Farrell and said pretty adamantly he wasn't going anywhere.

 

[oumbi]

Just to completely derail this thread for one post, the government of Japan had offered to surrender to the US as early as June, 1945 through the Russian government. Their sole condition was that the emperor not be humiliated after the surrender. The US turned this overture down.

WWII-Japan digging its heels in is a poor analogy here.

Now back to baseball.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Just to completely derail this thread for one post, the government of Japan had offered to surrender to the US as early as June, 1945 through the Russian government. Their sole condition was that the emperor not be humiliated after the surrender. The US turned this overture down.

WWII-Japan digging its heels in is a poor analogy here.

Now back to baseball.

Tell that to the tens or hundreds of thousands of allied troops that died in the Pacific in 1945, before that, when Japan was obviously done.

 

[Reverend]

Tell that to the tens or hundreds of thousands of allied troops that died in the Pacific in 1945, before that, when Japan was obviously done.

I'm not sure anyone wants to extend the logic of this arc.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

People truly believe the team is underperforming because Farrell isn't giving enough rah rah speeches or intimidating players into being All Stars? Sure that works great in the movies, but let's not overestimate the real world impact. And if we're gonna make these kind of claims, can we at least back them up with some evidence?

Outside of 2013, his teams have pretty consistently underperformed their preseason projections. Its possible that the projections are the issue, and that most of his players have been worse than we thought they were - its also possible that something he does (or doesn't do) doesn't lead to him getting optimal performance out of his players.

There have been way too many collapses under him, and way too many "the team just isn't playing the way it should". At some point, he either needs to take some responsibility that hes causing this, or it needs to be clear that hes not good enough to stop this stuff.

He won a World Series - and that's a great thing - but if he hadn't - we wouldn't be talking about whether the Red Sox should fire him - we'd be talking about whether he should be a manager anywhere, at all, ever again.

 

[Harry Hooper]

He won a World Series - and that's a great thing - but if he hadn't - we wouldn't be talking about whether the Red Sox should fire him - we'd be talking about whether he should be a manager anywhere, at all, ever again.

Is this post from November 2015? The 2016 season happened, and the Red Sox won the division. A manager with 2 division titles and a World Series win in 4 years can probably get another managing gig.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Outside of 2013, his teams have pretty consistently underperformed their preseason projections. Its possible that the projections are the issue, and that most of his players have been worse than we thought they were - its also possible that something he does (or doesn't do) doesn't lead to him getting optimal performance out of his players.

There have been way too many collapses under him, and way too many "the team just isn't playing the way it should". At some point, he either needs to take some responsibility that hes causing this, or it needs to be clear that hes not good enough to stop this stuff.

He won a World Series - and that's a great thing - but if he hadn't - we wouldn't be talking about whether the Red Sox should fire him - we'd be talking about whether he should be a manager anywhere, at all, ever again.

This post reeks of revisionist history. They outperformed their pre-season projections in both 2013 and 2016 (most had them in the high 80's for wins).

In 2014 they certainly came in under, but that was mostly recency bias since the 2013 so drastically over performed and reset expectations for a number of players they had acquired in the 2012-2013 winter. Those guys regressed and some declined, and they pulled the plug in July, pushing the season end win total down even further than they were on pace for. If you want to put some of that on the manager, fine, but they were in year two of what was supposed to be a rebuild. It shouldn't be that shocking, in retrospect at least, that they were a crappy team that year

2015 however, they were expecting to get about 4 more wins out of each of Hanley and Pablo than they got. They were projected to finish somewhere in the mid 80's and ended up with 78 wins. I guess you could say that Hanley and Panda falling off a cliff that year (and for good in Panda's case) is Farrell's fault, but you'd have a hard time convincing me that that was actually the case.

As usual, the case for firing Farrell really just boils down to "I don't like him" without a lot of substance behind it. The wins and losses argument is tired and fairly easy to punch holes in. At best you have two seasons over projections and two under, with a world series title and two division titles under his belt. That's, at worst, a decent manager, not a bad one.

Of course, this is the same fan base that used to complain about Tito, so this isn't surprising. Not pointing the finger at you specifically regarding Tito, just making a general comment there.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Don't know the basis of some of these stats, but:

By "1st Order Pythagorean": actual vs projected (wins):

Yankees .544 - .610 (-6.9)
Indians: .533 - .603 (-5.1)
White Sox: .392 - .432 (-4.1)
Red Sox: .538 - .560 (-2.4)

Twins: .485 - .432 (+5.5)
O's: .481 - .433 (+5.0)
Royals: .534 - .500 (+3.5)

By "3rd Order Pythagorean"

Yankees (-9.8)
Indians (-7.5)
A's (-3.2)
White Sox (-2.9)
Rays & Tigers (-2.7)
Astors (-0.9)
Mariners (0.0)
Angles (+0.5)
Red Sox (+1.8)

{Diamondbacks: either -5.4 or -3.3)

Under one stat, the Red Sox are the 4th-worst AL performers (behind the Yankees and Indians). Under the other, they're 10th worst (or 5th best) and positive.

In all cases, they are out-performing the Diamondbacks.

Management?

 

[8slim]

Everytime a "Fire Farrell" thread comes up I think the same thing... I don't understand being either passionately pro-Farrell or passionately anti-Farrell. To me he's just...there. He's a replacement level manager. A team can win a World Series with him and finish dead last with him.

Basically, if the Sox had 30 more home runs this year he'd be a much better manager.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I would like him more if he thought a bit more out of the box. The bullpen blew an 8th inning lead yesterday without using their best reliever and that's so frustrating to see. I know Farrell and Kimbrel talked and Kimbrel prefers to go only 1 inning, but the whole game was on the line and Kimbel never got into the game. It seems so unnecessarily wasteful.

And yeah most other managers would do the same thing; Yost lost the game Satruday in extras without bringing his closer in. But that doesn't make any of them right.