Tyrone wants to fire Farrell

[Al Zarilla]

I would like him more if he thought a bit more out of the box.

Like Francona last year in the post-season. Sure, it didn't hurt having a stud like Andrew Miller to go with a very good closer, Cody Allen, but Tito could have used Miller as "just an eighth inning guy" instead of bringing him in as early as the the fifth inning. Maybe it was even earlier. I don't see Farrell doing what Tito did, even if he had Miller.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Farrell used Ziegler in a variety of relief roles last year, ranging from closing in the absence of Kimbrel to 7th-inning appearances. He might do the same with Reed.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Tito used Okijima and Papelbon in 2007 much the same way he used Miller and Allen in 2016. The only significant difference was the Sox won more blow-out games that gave them the wiggle room to not have to overuse their relief aces. Look at Game 2 against the Rockies...Schilling got one out in the 6th before Okajima came in to finish that inning, pitch the 7th, and get two outs in the 8th before giving way to Pap. Farrell was there for that. I'd imagine he'd have done the same thing were it his call to make.

It's what any manager would do when in do-or-die games where he has two reliable bullpen arms and the rest is flotsom.

 

[joe dokes]

Like Francona last year in the post-season. Sure, it didn't hurt having a stud like Andrew Miller to go with a very good closer, Cody Allen, but Tito could have used Miller as "just an eighth inning guy" instead of bringing him in as early as the the fifth inning. Maybe it was even earlier. I don't see Farrell doing what Tito did, even if he had Miller.

Just quick and dirty, but he used Lackey in relief in one 2013 WS game, and Uehara into the game in the 8th in another. He also used Uehara in the 8th in at least 3 other playoff games. in the chances he's had, he was flexible in the playoffs with the pitching he had.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Sure, all of that happened (Farrell relief moves) but Tito left everybody flabbergasted by his moves last post season. He was like managing in a higher league. Bochy's use of Bumgarner in the 2014 World Series game 7 was another sensational play. I guess I've been spoiled by watching those guys and Bill Belichick. Farrell, IMO, is mediocre at best. Google MLB manager polls and you'll see he comes out middle of the pack +/- a few positions. FWIW.

 

[joe dokes]

Sure, all of that happened (Farrell relief moves) but Tito left everybody flabbergasted by his moves last post season. He was like managing in a higher league. Bochy's use of Bumgarner in the 2014 World Series game 7 was another sensational play. I guess I've been spoiled by watching those guys and Bill Belichick. Farrell, IMO, is mediocre at best. Google MLB manager polls and you'll see he comes out middle of the pack +/- a few positions. FWIW.

I dont think we disagree. Tito had 1 good starter and a unique weapon in Miller. He had no choice but to do what he did, but Miller was arguably cooked by the time they got to game 7.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Sure, all of that happened (Farrell relief moves) but Tito left everybody flabbergasted by his moves last post season. He was like managing in a higher league. Bochy's use of Bumgarner in the 2014 World Series game 7 was another sensational play. I guess I've been spoiled by watching those guys and Bill Belichick. Farrell, IMO, is mediocre at best. Google MLB manager polls and you'll see he comes out middle of the pack +/- a few positions. FWIW.

He left everyone flabbergasted because he overused Miller(including a second inning while up 7-1 in the 4th game) and burned him out by the end of the series. And by starting mediocre pitchers Bauer and Tomlin on short rest, which didn't work.
The lack of objectivity about Francona around here--now that he's gone--is astounding.

Everyone manages differently in the post-season. By the World Series 2013, Farrell basically had Taz and Koji in the bullpen, and had to figure out how to make that work. He did--higher level stuff, I guess

 

[Al Zarilla]

There were 5 full days off between the last ALCS game and the first World Series game. Maybe Miller was somewhat gassed. Who knows.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

The 7-1 game was Game 4 of the World Series. If a Red Sox manager had wasted his best resource in that situation, this place would have exploded.

 

[barbed wire Bob]

The 7-1 game was Game 4 of the World Series. If a Red Sox manager had wasted his best resource in that situation, this place would have exploded.

And, Miller was brought in to face the 7-8-9 hitters.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN201610290.shtml

 

[judyb]

It did seem like a mistake to use the starters on short rest when Merritt gave them enough to get a win and Kluber didn't seem the same on short rest in the ALCS.

 

[ItOnceWasMyLife]

This team is woefully under-performing the reasonable offensive expectations set out for them at the beginning of the year, save Bradley I suppose. Maybe Chili Davis should be the one under the microscope? It seems the relationship of the younger players is pretty close with him. Maybe seeing him lose his job would wake a few of them up. Either that or stop putting NyQuil in the gator-aid buckets.

Not that I'm a big fan of JF. I seriously doubt the Sox win another WS with Farrell in command, but Jack McKeon isn't walking through that door this year.

 

[Moviegoer]

Weren't all these things said about Chili Davis now the same exact things said about the last hitting coach?

 

[Al Zarilla]

The 7-1 game was Game 4 of the World Series. If a Red Sox manager had wasted his best resource in that situation, this place would have exploded.

And, Miller was brought in to face the 7-8-9 hitters.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN201610290.shtml

When Miller started warming up, it was probably 3-1, maybe 4-1 Indians. Tito's rule, and also Farrell's now is if a guy warms up, you use him.

 

[barbed wire Bob]

When Miller started warming up, it was probably 3-1, maybe 4-1 Indians. Tito's rule, and also Farrell's now is if a guy warms up, you use him.

Then why use him two innings?

 

[Al Zarilla]

Then why use him two innings?

That's a good question.

 

[shaggydog2000]

Weren't all these things said about Chili Davis now the same exact things said about the last hitting coach?

Hitting coaches are basically like a live chicken. If you need to wake up the bats, just sacrifice one to the baseball gods. Probably works the same percentage of time.

 

[keninten]

This team is woefully under-performing the reasonable offensive expectations set out for them at the beginning of the year, save Bradley I suppose. Maybe Chili Davis should be the one under the microscope? It seems the relationship of the younger players is pretty close with him. Maybe seeing him lose his job would wake a few of them up. Either that or stop putting NyQuil in the gator-aid buckets.

Not that I'm a big fan of JF. I seriously doubt the Sox win another WS with Farrell in command, but Jack McKeon isn't walking through that door this year.

It will be Jim Leyland

 

[the1andonly3003]

Hitting coaches are basically like a live chicken. If you need to wake up the bats, just sacrifice one to the baseball gods. Probably works the same percentage of time.

We say the same about all hitting coaches. Smart hitting coaches will move on before this catches up to him (Mark Maguire perhaps?).

I'm still not convinced that JF needs to go now. Wanted to get rid of this clubhouse distraction, but too bad he had an un-tradeable contract.

 

[begranter]

Give him the boot, give him the boot! I've been on this train since they kept him on post-cancer. What exactly in his resume warrants Farrell keeping his job? To me 2013 felt so much more about the players rallying around the city than the manager pulling the team. This may be unfair of me, but even if you give him credit for that year baseball is a what have you done for me lately situation.

-Only once has a John Farrell team over-achieved vs its expected pythag - his first year in Toronto as a .500 club. Every other year as a manger they have underachieved vs their projected pythag record. Filtering out the Lovullo games in 2015 (which actually helps Farrell) and Farrell averages an 82-80 achieved record vs a 85-77 expected pythag.
-The 2017 team has a lack of accountable leadership. Since the Price/Eck incident (I'm as sick of hearing about it as you are) the Red Sox have the worst record in the majors. The inability to block out the noise and focus on the game is astounding. It's easy to blame the players for their actions, but ultimately it's the manager's job to keep everyone in check and focused on the game. It's clear Farrell hasn't done that. In many ways, this is the most damning.
-Even when the team was in first place earlier this year, the consensuses seemed to be that they were underachieving on the field. I agree with this assessment and think it reflects primarily on the manager for not getting the most out of his players.
-Last year in the playoffs, it was clear to me the team was not prepared appropriately. The young players were clearly pressing in all three games and they got steamrolled by an Indians team missing the majority of their starting rotation.

In recent memory there are a handful of decisions that top my list of Red Sox mistakes. Not re-signing Beltre and instead trading Rizzo for Gonzalez, hiring Bobby Valentine to be the 2012 manager, signing Pablo without a weight clause/contract insurance, and keeping John Farrell as manager after the disastrous 2014 and 2015 seasons are my top 4. Certainly there is some hindsight attached to this, but at least in the other 3 management recognized a sunk cost and cut bait. It's time to do the same with Farrell.

It wouldn't hurt to give the team a jolt and light a fire under their asses either.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Mo Vaughn in the 1995 ALDS vs. Cleveland: .000/.067/.000 with 7 K in 15 PA

Mo Vaughn in the 1998 ALDS vs. Cleveland: .412/.444./.882 with 2 HR in 19 PA

Young players pressing in their first taste of the postseason is par for the course.

 

[Adrian's Dome]

Mo Vaughn in the 1995 ALDS vs. Cleveland: .000/.067/.000 with 7 K in 15 PA

Mo Vaughn in the 1998 ALDS vs. Cleveland: .412/.444./.882 with 2 HR in 19 PA

Young players pressing in their first taste of the postseason is par for the course.

Or, you know, those are just insanely small sample sizes. Every single player in the majors will go through an 0-for-15 every so often alongside nailing down an 8/19 on occasion. You can't judge anything based off cherry-picked 15-20 PA samples, playoffs or not.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

It will be Jim Leyland

Leyland I don't think would be in any conversation for manager in the future. Would be interesting though.

 

[lexrageorge]

I would like him more if he thought a bit more out of the box. The bullpen blew an 8th inning lead yesterday without using their best reliever and that's so frustrating to see. I know Farrell and Kimbrel talked and Kimbrel prefers to go only 1 inning, but the whole game was on the line and Kimbel never got into the game. It seems so unnecessarily wasteful.

And yeah most other managers would do the same thing; Yost lost the game Satruday in extras without bringing his closer in. But that doesn't make any of them right.

Whenever a situation like this comes up, it illustrates the never ending conflict between managing the season and managing to win a single game.

In the playoffs, where every game counts, it makes perfect sense to follow the Designated Relief Ace model; your best reliever should be in the game during the highest leverage situations, even if it's the 7th inning.

During the regular season, it's far more difficult to bring in the best reliever in the 8th inning for a number of reasons. Until a manager successfully uses a different model for the entire season, the regular season closer usage is extremely unlikely to change. But at least Farrell does actually bring in Kimbrel in a tied game in the 9th or 10th inning, a simple concept that managed to escape that super managerial genius known as Buck Showalter.

Some folks have brought up Francona's usage of Miller last playoffs. Keep in mind that Farrell never got any similar opportunities:

Game 1: Sox were already down 5-3 by the 5th inning. Koji pitched the bottom of the 8th when it was 5-4, but the Sox went meekly in the top of the 9th.

Game 2: No need to discuss that one any further.

Game 3: Kimbrel did pitch the top of the 9th with the Sox trailing by 1 run.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Or, you know, those are just insanely small sample sizes. Every single player in the majors will go through an 0-for-15 every so often alongside nailing down an 8/19 on occasion. You can't judge anything based off cherry-picked 15-20 PA samples, playoffs or not.

If you saw the '95 ALDS, you need not depend on the law of large numbers too conclude that Mo was trying to hard to make an impact and swinging at crap.


Or, as Mo put it himself:

Vaughn said he has watched videotapes of his at-bats from the '95 series and had no trouble spotting the problem.

``I wasn't in a good hitting position,'' Vaughn said. ``I tried to take the game over rather than let the game come to me. You've got to go through the hype of the playoffs to learn what it's about. I learned. Having been through it once, I understand that.''

Vaughn said he did not have one quality at-bat against the Indians. When he was pitched outside, he attempted to pull the pitch rather than hit it to the opposite field.

``I was trying to pull everything,'' he said. ``I wanted to carry the team.''

Courant

 

[redsox2020]

If you saw the '95 ALDS, you need not depend on the law of large numbers too conclude that Mo was trying to hard to make an impact and swinging at crap.


Or, as Mo put it himself:



Courant

In hindsight, it's easy to criticize poor performances and praise positive ones. And as a player, it's arguably beneficial to adopt this mindset. That doesn't necessarily make the analysis true, though.

 

[Adrian's Dome]

In hindsight, it's easy to criticize poor performances and praise positive ones. And as a player, it's arguably beneficial to adopt this mindset. That doesn't necessarily make the analysis true, though.

Exactly. Hindsight is always 20/20.

We've seen plenty of young players come right in and light it up in big spots, more than enough to put a dent in any kind of argument about youth being a massive factor in playoff performance, especially if the "evidence" is 15-20AB sample sizes.

 

[shaggydog2000]

Attribution and false pattern matching are part of how human brains make sense out of randomness. It's how you get fake home remedies, gods, and witchcraft. Lets not pretend that just because an athlete says something about his performance it is true, and that tiny sample sizes are predictive or true representations of the underlying probabilities involved.

 

[the1andonly3003]

So, do we still want to fire Ferrell? I mean, the rookies bailing out the team in the late innings is a fluke right?!

 

[richgedman'sghost]

Well if Devers does not hit the living daylights out of a Chapman fastball and 10D get a clutch hit in the 10th, we might be having a different discussion today.

Sent from my SM-G920V using SoSH mobile app

 

[PedroSpecialK]

Farrell sending Willis out to talk to Reed, then trying to pull Reed after the next pitch, only to be reminded that he has to wait until the end of the at bat, was pretty brutal to watch.

Probably not the best thing for Reed's psyche either.

 

[uncannymanny]

Well if Devers does not hit the living daylights out of a Chapman fastball and 10D get a clutch hit in the 10th, we might be having a different discussion today.

Sent from my SM-G920V using SoSH mobile app

Wow, so you're saying the players play the game and not the manager?!

 

[bankshot1]

I think Farrell is a so-so game day manager, and does some head scratching shit, and he looked bad with last night's Reed screw-up, but too many people here mirco-analyze the handful of head scrathchers, and seem to overlook the other gazillion decisons he has to make every day to get 25+ guys to play well, or at least well enough to be in 1st by 5 1/2 games.

He's a got a a lot of young players playing well and prepared. Does he get credit for sitting 10D and lettting him re-focus, or getting Devers into the game last night? Or they are winning extra inning games at an iimpressive pace, with his players playing hard. We seem to forget that shit.

If you want to blame him for dumb shit, that fine with me, but credit him for the good shit too.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

I still don't understand why Barnes was left in.

With men on 1st and 2nd (1 Out), Farrell/Willis had to see that Barnes was having trouble finding the plate. Then he walked Sanchez to load the bases.

Farrell went with the strikeout pitcher instead of the ground ball pitcher (who should have been ready, regardless). I get it. Frazier is a great K-candidate. The K came one batter too late (Gregorius).

It shouldn't have gotten to the point of needing a strikeout. Reed should have been in with 1st and 2nd one out. It's why Reed was obtained.

I don't give two shits about Farrell's mound-visit mistake. I'm more curious why he didn't trust Reed in the 8th. I'm not one who thinks last night's game was a critical win or loss - so the clear message that Reed's not trusted is curious.

Yes, Reed didn't look good again. So what - it's August. This guy has to be put into critical situations now in order for the team to see what's there.

 

[uncannymanny]

I think Farrell is a so-so game day manager, and does some head scratching shit, and he looked bad with last night's Reed screw-up, but too many people here mirco-analyze the handful of head scrathchers, and seem to overlook the other gazillion decisons he has to make every day to get 25+ guys to play well, or at least well enough to be in 1st by 5 1/2 games.

He's a got a a lot of young players playing well and prepared. Does he get credit for sitting 10D and lettting him re-focus, or getting Devers into the game last night? Or they are winning extra inning games at an iimpressive pace, with his players playing hard. We seem to forget that shit.

If you want to blame him for dumb shit, that fine with me, but credit him for the good shit too.

1000x this. I'm not sure there's a soul on this board that loves Farrell, just many that are annoyed with the incessant whining that has infected this board wrt the manager and made this a worse place to discuss baseball.

They're on pace to win 90+ games for the 3rd out of 5 years he's been here. The 2 years they won above 90 they've been to the ALCS and won the WS.

Oh and I've yet to see any of the whiners actually do any work and break down where Farrell stands among other MLB managers. I guess it's easier just to whine.

 

[Max Power]

They're on pace to win 90+ games for the 3rd out of 5 years he's been here. The 2 years they won above 90 they've been to the ALCS and won the WS.

Since when does getting bounced in three straight games count as getting to the ALCS?

Farrell was absolutely terrible at his bullpen management for the entire series. The only person in the world who didn't know Barnes was going to give up a run last night was Farrell, while Kimbrel nearly didn't get into a game. The bullpen is the place where a manager has the most control of the on-field performance and it's by far his worst skill.

 

[lexrageorge]

1000x this. I'm not sure there's a soul on this board that loves Farrell, just many that are annoyed with the incessant whining that has infected this board wrt the manager and made this a worse place to discuss baseball.

They're on pace to win 90+ games for the 3rd out of 5 years he's been here. The 2 years they won above 90 they've been to the ALCS ALDS and won the WS.

Oh and I've yet to see any of the whiners actually do any work and break down where Farrell stands among other MLB managers. I guess it's easier just to whine.

I think you had a typo.

But your bottom line is very much spot on. Some of us here remember the Francona days (or "Francoma"), where he was regularly accused of attempting to "steal outs", or unnecessarily rest his closer, or inserting random bad reliever into high leverage situation, or having random bad batter hit cleanup on Sunday's. This was even after 2 World Series wins.

Farrell is now the target du jour. And the moves the opposing managers make never get questioned. Especially Maddon and Showalter, even though they make their share of head scratching moves in the depths of the regular season.

 

[TheoShmeo]

The following may dip into psychbabble but we know that Farrell's strength is supposed to be clubhouse management (as opposed to in game strategy, where even his fans can't get beyond adequate). And the Price and Pedrioa incidents arguably screamed out for some deft clubhouse touch that seems wanting in each case.

So now DD acquires Addison Reed, who manages to cough up a win on Friday night. On Sunday night, with a chance to tell Reed that Farrell still believes in him, the manager in the 8th inserts the shaky Matt Barnes with predictable results, and then botches a panicky removal attempt of Reed after two batters in the 9th.

So what is Reed thinking now? Is he pissed at the manager? Maybe a pissed Reed is a better Reed. He has been mediocre thus far so this might be a fortunate turn of events.

But I dunno, I would rather that Mr. Clubhouse was handling a potential late inning weapon with the expertise that JF is often credited with having.

 

[uncannymanny]

Since when does getting bounced in three straight games count as getting to the ALCS?

Farrell was absolutely terrible at his bullpen management for the entire series. The only person in the world who didn't know Barnes was going to give up a run last night was Farrell, while Kimbrel nearly didn't get into a game. The bullpen is the place where a manager has the most control of the on-field performance and it's by far his worst skill.

Yes I messed that playoff record up. Regardless, they won 2 out of 3 and nearly swept their division rival who is leading the wild card race, in their building. You cannot use Kimbrel in every tight situation over a 162 game season. He'd have 150ip already if he was deployed by the game threads.

It always falls back to "everyone knew" or "you can't tell me" blah blah blah. Like I said, do the fucking work to show it or just stop whining.

 

[Max Power]

Yes I messed that playoff record up. Regardless, they won 2 out of 3 and nearly swept their division rival who is leading the wild card race, in their building. You cannot use Kimbrel in every tight situation over a 162 game season. He'd have 150ip already if he was deployed by the game threads.

It always falls back to "everyone knew" or "you can't tell me" blah blah blah. Like I said, do the fucking work to show it or just stop whining.

Kimbrel had three days off before the series started. You think he needed more rest?

What "fucking work" do you want me to do? Go back in time, become the Red Sox manager, and pull Barnes after he let two guys on? Barnes had a good game on Friday, so sure, let him start a clean inning. But when he can't get the ball over the plate, hyper-selective Brett Gardner of all people bails him out by chasing, two runners are on, and knowing his terrible home-road splits, there's no rational explanation for leaving him in. And that doesn't even get into his embarrassing attempted removal of Reed. Farrell shit the bed and had a 20 year old stud clean it up for him.

 

[uncannymanny]

I'd like to see the ones complaining with constant, sweeping hyperbole actually back up their assertions. We go through this several times a week, someone points out reasons or stats and the anti-Farrell brigade throws up posts like this in response.

He's so bad? Show me compared to other managers. Show me with stats. Show me the players saying they don't like him.

It's super easy to complain they should've used their closer after each of the 70 losses they'll have this season, but you can put him in all of those games.

And of course, what he doesn't do is always assumed 100% effective :eye roll:

 

[Dummy Hoy]

Leaving Barnes in was tough...it's still August, but you've got a chance to really kick the Yanks back down and you can't be letting someone work through it. Barnes couldn't find the plate except to lob BP fastballs in- Devers' unreal heroics aside, that should have cost them that game.

 

[uncannymanny]

So Mookie didn't cost them anything? Just JF's bullpen management, right?

 

[Max Power]

Farrell can't control Mookie's error. He can control who's pitching in the 8th inning with 2 on and one out.

 

[uncannymanny]

He can control baserunning error (or so I hear) but not fielding errors?

 

[smastroyin]

For my part, my criticism of Farrell is much more on the "leader of men" side than the tactical side. Tactical moves are too hard for us to understand with limited information, and since every manager seems to make loads of them, I don't see it as distinguishing.

But, on Farrell's watch we have seen one very expensive player self-immolate (Panda), and another on his way to (Price). While he has had some success with a couple of young players, he has also had a bunch of failures. This is all normal, not all prospects work out, but it doesn't really count in his favor as doing some magic we don't know about behind the scenes. I find the arguments about the team achievements pretty laughable, though. One of those years they didn't win 90 games they went out and spent like they intended to, and the ship crashed and burned. So maybe Farrell is just a front-runner or whatever but I think he's mostly a JAG. It's hard to do better than a JAG and it's really easy to do worse, so I understand the argument for keeping him when things are going well. But I also don't think he's good enough to rally around and oppose a change for change's sake.

 

[uncannymanny]

I'm not sure leader of men is accurate either. I think his best quality is insulating the clubhouse from the media and taking the heat so players can focus on their jobs, which he does with more grace than the media and some fans deserve.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Who are we saying Farrell should have brought in and when? I have a general sense that he was not great last night, but this is always so vague and hindsight. What, specifically, was the right move?

Kimbrel after the Judge single? Reed to start the 8th? Barnes should never pitch close and late on the road? Without this specificity, these discussions are way too easy and usually point in one direction.

In game threads at least, it's always based on such squishy evidence that usually is "told you so" in hindsight -- like "Kimbrel sucks in non-saves," or "Barnes can't pitch on the road." I feel like these discussions really lack specificity and are often made without a complete analysis of what players were left on the scorecard.

 

[Murby]

I'd like to see the ones complaining with constant, sweeping hyperbole actually back up their assertions. We go through this several times a week, someone points out reasons or stats and the anti-Farrell brigade throws up posts like this in response.

He's so bad? Show me compared to other managers. Show me with stats. Show me the players saying they don't like him.

It's super easy to complain they should've used their closer after each of the 70 losses they'll have this season, but you can put him in all of those games.

And of course, what he doesn't do is always assumed 100% effective :eye roll:

The eye roll is adorable.

As the Supreme Court once pointed out, you know obscenity when you see it. I have watched enough baseball that I know a bad manger when I see it.

Your bitching and whining about the bitching and whining is just as silly. Given how this team has fared, I'm okay leaving Farrell, but that doesn't mean he's a good manager. It might mean he's been lucky and blessed with excellent talent that can make up for his tactical deficiencies. All managers make mistakes, including Showalter and Maddon, but the multi-year sample is quite impressive with Farrell.

 

[snowmanny]

He can control baserunning error (or so I hear) but not fielding errors?

There's a difference between a missed play and a bad decision. JBJ failing to throw to third on the go-ahead sacrifice fly is more troubling than Mookie dropping one ball out of a thousand; even Dwight Evans dropped an easier fly ball against the Yankees in a tighter pennant race once upon a time.
How much of the mental errors are actually reflective of poor coaching is up for debate, but it's reasonable to wonder.