Who belongs in the Basketball Hall of Fame?

Sox and Rocks

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moondog80 said:
Draymond is the same guy he's always been. The same alpha-dog intensity that turned him from a 2nd round pick to a HOFer with 4 rings who will retire with over $250 million in career earnings manifests itself in bad ways too, and it's showing more as the skill of both him and his teammates fades. It's not a switch he can just turn on and off.
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Draymond Green a Hall of Famer?

I mean, earlier in this thread there was a post about him not even lasting in this league on a different team. That was extreme, but so is calling him a HOFer. The truth is in the middle as usual. He's a terrific defender, no doubt, but he doesn't have the all around game to be a HOFer. He's a role player who, like other role players on championship teams, has a skill set that fits perfectly to augment and cover the skills and weaknesses of the real Alphas he has and continues to play with. And even if he was/is more than that, his being a piece of shit would be an impediment for such an honor.
 
Euclis20

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Sox and Rocks said:
Draymond Green a Hall of Famer?

I mean, earlier in this thread there was a post about him not even lasting in this league on a different team. That was extreme, but so is calling him a HOFer. The truth is in the middle as usual. He's a terrific defender, no doubt, but he doesn't have the all around game to be a HOFer. He's a role player who, like other role players on championship teams, has a skill set that fits perfectly to augment and cover the skills and weaknesses of the real Alphas he has and continues to play with. And even if he was/is more than that, his being a piece of shit would be an impediment for such an honor.
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Ben Wallace is in the HOF. Draymond is a lock.
 
Kliq

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Yeah there are a bunch of guys that were lockdown defenders on great teams in the Hall of Fame, Rodman, Satch Sanders, KC Jones, come to mind. And Draymond is not an offensive zero--his screens and his playmaking off of the pick-and-roll are huge parts of the Warriors offense.

Draymond is a difficult player to evaluate because much the same way Curry's shooting ability has a transcendent impact on the offensive end of the floor, it also makes Draymond a much more effective player. The range of Curry's shooting is such that it offers a ton of space for Draymond to catch the ball out of the PnR, turn and go to the basket and make the right pass either to a player in the dunker spot, or kick it out to a shooter on the wing. And he's really, really good at making that decision.

If Draymond wasn't on the Warriors, he probably wouldn't have a HoF case, but he would still be at a minimum, a perennial DPOY candidate and a good screener and secondary playmaker for a team.
 
HomeRunBaker

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Sox and Rocks said:
Draymond Green a Hall of Famer?

I mean, earlier in this thread there was a post about him not even lasting in this league on a different team. That was extreme, but so is calling him a HOFer. The truth is in the middle as usual. He's a terrific defender, no doubt, but he doesn't have the all around game to be a HOFer. He's a role player who, like other role players on championship teams, has a skill set that fits perfectly to augment and cover the skills and weaknesses of the real Alphas he has and continues to play with. And even if he was/is more than that, his being a piece of shit would be an impediment for such an honor.
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HoFamer for sure as a key piece to a generational team that changed the game. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion of him on the floor but this decline that everyone is talking about isn't there. Hes the Warriors 2nd most important player as he was last year except for the Klay explosion nights. They are a shell of themselves when he's in street clothes, 6-12 over last two years with zero identify and very soft.
 
Euclis20

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Dahabenzapple2 said:
Is Andre Iguodala a HOFer?
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Probably not, because his accomplishments are a fraction of Green's. Draymond has literally 4x as many all-star appearances and 4x as many all defense teams. Iggy has the Finals MVP that Green doesn't have, but the latter once won DPOY. Draymond has a legit argument as the 2nd most important part of the Warriors' dynasty, Iguodala is 5th among players, and we can debate his value compared to guys like Kerr and Myers. Iguodala isn't in the same league as Green.
 
Dahabenzapple2

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Iggy was great as a young player with the Sixers

Not his fault it wasn’t a championship team

Not saying he’s a HOFer. He’s not and if Draymond wasn’t on the Warriors he wouldn’t sniff the HOF either.
 
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Devizier

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Yeah; Draymond gets in with the Satch Sanders path open to him. I’d argue that Ben Wallace was a cut above those guys.
 
slamminsammya

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Wallace was maybe a more dominant defender but Draymond was/is a fantastic offensive player, just terrible at the one thing that fans look at which is scoring.
 
Kenny F'ing Powers

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slamminsammya said:
Wallace was maybe a more dominant defender but Draymond was/is a fantastic offensive player, just terrible at the one thing that fans look at which is scoring.
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Wallace was a fantastic defender, but he also gets a little nudge because of the persona. The hair, the defense. The blocks from a short big man. He was a large personality for that timeframe.
 
Euclis20

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Wallace was also a terrific rebounder, leading the league several times. For his position, Draymond has never been better than adequate in that regard.

Dahabenzapple2 said:
Iggy was great as a young player with the Sixers

Not his fault it wasn’t a championship team

Not saying he’s a HOFer. He’s not and if Draymond wasn’t on the Warriors he wouldn’t sniff the HOF either.
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That's probably true, but it's hard to argue that Draymond didn't make the most of his situation. 2nd or 3rd best player on a dynasty team is a significantly more impressive accomplishment than a borderline all-star on a borderline playoff team, which was what Iggy was in his prime with Philly.
 
lovegtm

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People who think Draymond isn't a HoFer don't get just how good he is defensively. He is/was really, really special on that end.
 
ManicCompression

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lovegtm said:
People who think Draymond isn't a HoFer don't get just how good he is defensively. He is/was really, really special on that end.
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100%. For years, being able to put him at C was a cheat code. As much as he benefits from Curry, it’s possible the warriors of the last ten years are a slightly better version of the Blazers without Draymond. He’s an absolute lock for HoF (personality and violent temperament notwithstanding) and calling him a “role player” totally disregards how much he disrupts the game.
 
Dahabenzapple2

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If Jimmy Butler & Kahwi Leonard are not HOFers ahead of Draymond Green, I’ll be…..

These dudes (especially Kahwi) are championship number one dudes.

Kevin Love on the other hand?!?!?!
 
CaptainLaddie

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Dahabenzapple2 said:
Kevin Love on the other hand?!?!?!
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He'll end up with at least 15k points, 9k boards, 2k assists, 550+ steals, and 350+ blocks. 20 guys in NBA history have done that -- the 5 that aren't in the HOF are:

- LeBron (he's in)
- Shawn Marion (he's in)
- Elton Brand (I'd say he's 50/50 to get in based on his NBA totals and his NCAA awards)
- Otis Thorpe (no)
- Kevin Love

That's it. It's possible he goes the Thorpe route, but realistically, it's more likely that's he's in based on he was part of the Cleveland team that won the title and that he was one of the best passing big men of his generation. Injuries (both physical and mental) took a serious toll.

The BBHOF is a huge hall, and they count college stuff way more seriously than the other HsOF do (it's why if Horford wins an NBA title, I think he's a lock for the BBHOF considering his college career). I see Love as a 50/50, or something close to it.
 
Euclis20

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CaptainLaddie said:
He'll end up with at least 15k points, 9k boards, 2k assists, 550+ steals, and 350+ blocks. 20 guys in NBA history have done that -- the 5 that aren't in the HOF are:

- LeBron (he's in)
- Shawn Marion (he's in)
- Elton Brand (I'd say he's 50/50 to get in based on his NBA totals and his NCAA awards)
- Otis Thorpe (no)
- Kevin Love

That's it. It's possible he goes the Thorpe route, but realistically, it's more likely that's he's in based on he was part of the Cleveland team that won the title and that he was one of the best passing big men of his generation. Injuries (both physical and mental) took a serious toll.

The BBHOF is a huge hall, and they count college stuff way more seriously than the other HsOF do (it's why if Horford wins an NBA title, I think he's a lock for the BBHOF considering his college career). I see Love as a 50/50, or something close to it.
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Is Marion in? I always liked him (I think of Marion every time I see Tatum lock in on defense) and I think he was the unsung glue that really elevated the Nash/Stoudemire Suns teams (on both ends), but he's the sort of player that wouldn't have a chance to make the baseball or football HOFs. He's borderline for the NBA - 4 all star games, 2 all-nba (both 3rd team), no all defense teams, never led the league in anything, won one title as a role player with Dallas near the end of his career. Those milestone counting stats mean less in the NBA than similar basic stats do in other sports, I don't know if Marion has enough of a story to get in. I'd be a lot more bullish on his chances if Phoenix had ever broken through and won a title.
 
CaptainLaddie

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Euclis20 said:
Is Marion in? I always liked him (I think of Marion every time I see Tatum lock in on defense) and I think he was the unsung glue that really elevated the Nash/Stoudemire Suns teams (on both ends), but he's the sort of player that wouldn't have a chance to make the baseball or football HOFs. He's borderline for the NBA - 4 all star games, 2 all-nba (both 3rd team), no all defense teams, never led the league in anything, won one title as a role player with Dallas near the end of his career. Those milestone counting stats mean less in the NBA than similar basic stats do in other sports, I don't know if Marion has enough of a story to get in,
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17k points, 10k rebounds. The only guys in NBA with those numbers not in the HOF are Lebron, Dwight, Marion, Thorpe, Willis, and ZBo. Marion's got a career 124.9 WS, and there's exactly 10 guys with at 120+ WS not in the HOF -- LeBron, CP3, KD, Harden, Howard, Steph, Vince, Marion, Chauncey, and Buck Williams. Those first nine are all HOF guys, to me.
 
Euclis20

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The NBA HOF is a really big tent, hard to really argue against it. Bref gives him a 75.6% chance, feels right. I think Billups [rightfully] gets in first.
 
snowmanny

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CaptainLaddie said:
17k points, 10k rebounds. The only guys in NBA with those numbers not in the HOF are Lebron, Dwight, Marion, Thorpe, Willis, and ZBo. Marion's got a career 124.9 WS, and there's exactly 10 guys with at 120+ WS not in the HOF -- LeBron, CP3, KD, Harden, Howard, Steph, Vince, Marion, Chauncey, and Buck Williams. Those first nine are all HOF guys, to me.
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Buck Williams was so good from the moment he came in the league. Helped turn the Nets completely around as a rookie. He peaked early and wasn’t great all that long and I’m not arguing he’s a HOFer, but he was HOF level for several years including right out of the gate.
 
Kliq

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CaptainLaddie said:
He'll end up with at least 15k points, 9k boards, 2k assists, 550+ steals, and 350+ blocks. 20 guys in NBA history have done that -- the 5 that aren't in the HOF are:

- LeBron (he's in)
- Shawn Marion (he's in)
- Elton Brand (I'd say he's 50/50 to get in based on his NBA totals and his NCAA awards)
- Otis Thorpe (no)
- Kevin Love

That's it. It's possible he goes the Thorpe route, but realistically, it's more likely that's he's in based on he was part of the Cleveland team that won the title and that he was one of the best passing big men of his generation. Injuries (both physical and mental) took a serious toll.

The BBHOF is a huge hall, and they count college stuff way more seriously than the other HsOF do (it's why if Horford wins an NBA title, I think he's a lock for the BBHOF considering his college career). I see Love as a 50/50, or something close to it.
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Love also might get credit for the fact that he sacrificed a lot of his personal numbers for team success when he went to Cleveland.
 
CaptainLaddie

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snowmanny said:
Buck Williams was so good from the moment he came in the league. Helped turn the Nets completely around as a rookie. He peaked early and wasn’t great all that long and I’m not arguing he’s a HOFer, but he was HOF level for several years including right out of the gate.
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Before my time, but there's not a lot of guys who make back to back ASG as a rookie and 2nd year player. Doesn't matter the era.
 
Euclis20

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Kliq said:
Love also might get credit for the fact that he sacrificed a lot of his personal numbers for team success when he went to Cleveland.
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Love also should get credit for his play at the end of game 7 in the 2016 finals. 99% of the credit seems to go to Kyrie (for his 3 pointer over Curry) or Lebron (for his chase-down block on Iguodala), but as good as those plays were, they were both cases of great players doing what they do best. Right after Kyrie hit his 3 pointer to give Cleveland the 3 point lead in the final minute, Love stayed with Curry on a switch for about 10 seconds and forced him into a difficult shot that he missed. This was the best shooter of all-time in his absolute prime (let's ignore for a minute that he probably wasn't 100% healthy), unable to get a good shot off against a slower power forward that was always best known for his offense and rebounding. Love's defense on that play was every bit as impressive for me as what Kyrie and Lebron had done earlier:

Skip to 1:27:40:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoVTttvKfRs
 
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