Yo, Adrian

[E5 Yaz]

Jeff Howe‏ @jeffphowe 40m40 minutes ago
With Adrian Peterson, from what I understand, the Pats didn't get to the point today where they were willing to make an offer. He's gone.

Jeff Howe‏ @jeffphowe 39m39 minutes ago
Belichick has the freedom to host players, even those as controversial as Peterson, for scouting purposes (check the knee, for example).

Jeff Howe‏ @jeffphowe 38m38 minutes ago
If Belichick genuinely wanted to sign Peterson, he'd have to run it by Robert Kraft. I'd be surprised if Kraft would OK that.

 

[Stitch01]

That played out in a way that makes sense. BB has always respected players that reached greatness, so if ADP wants to visit/ADP gets to visit, but didnt really make sense for this roster.

Interesting to note given Jimmy G discussions that Howe thinks Kraft does have final say/veto power for certain roster decisions.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Very fair perspective.

But what will you do if they sign him, and he scores two TDs in the Super Bowl? Will you cheer? This is a serious question.

I agree 100% this is a serious question. As a complete hypocrite fan I'll cheer the Patriots and not Peterson. Maybe it's because I'm older but I rooted for Corey Dillon in the day but couldn't root for Wil Cordero. Maybe it's just getting older or more exposure now but I've have much less tolerance for it than I used to.

They just won the Super Bowl I really don't want a child abuser on the team. I haven't been happy when Bill has brought in abusers recently so this isn't an isolated case.

 

[BigSoxFan]

That played out in a way that makes sense. BB has always respected players that reached greatness, so if ADP wants to visit/ADP gets to visit, but didnt really make sense for this roster.

Interesting to note given Jimmy G discussions that Howe thinks Kraft does have final say/veto power for certain roster decisions.

How do we know what BB's thoughts are? If I'm remembering correctly, I don't think Burkhead got an offer during his visit. I think it's very likely the Pats don't make an offer but don't think we can read into it one way or the other.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Interesting to note given Jimmy G discussions that Howe thinks Kraft does have final say/veto power for certain roster decisions.

But we were told here that BB makes the final call. Are you saying the guy that owns the team might actually have some say??? Odd.

 

[Stitch01]

How do we know what BB's thoughts are? If I'm remembering correctly, I don't think Burkhead got an offer during his visit. I think it's very likely the Pats don't make an offer but don't think we can read into it one way or the other.

We can't 100 percent know anything, but a visit without an offer makes an offer less likely to be forthcoming and l, IMO, Peterson on the Patriots doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Van Everyman]

Dennis Lehane with a slightly weird Globe op-ed on this subject:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/04/03/adrian-peterson-abused-his-son-why-would-patriots-want-sign-him/AGt54HOQydAkHNdxVzF0hI/story.html

 

[moondog80]

Dennis Lehane with a slightly weird Globe op-ed on this subject:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/04/03/adrian-peterson-abused-his-son-why-would-patriots-want-sign-him/AGt54HOQydAkHNdxVzF0hI/story.html

Apparently Dennis Lehane is a bit of an asshole.

Let us put aside the egregious level of megalomania and its correlative overuse of the exclamation mark in those words. Let us forgive Adrian his terrible grammar

 

[lexrageorge]

Well, AP's tweet is a bit disturbing given that it was immediately after the accusations were first aired to the public.

 

[sezwho]

If he were willing to sign the incentive laden deal...I still don't want the abuser even though there is more context around his situation than first appears. As a side note, I'm hopeful that more people realize that while abuse may have turned them into the man they are, thats not necessarily a good thing. Definitely not a regular watcher, but Friday night tykes makes me shudder.

Back on topic, I think that the greatest structural weakness of BBs (definitely best of all time so don't get it twisted) system is on the lines. He has finally adapted the d-line profile away from the 400lb two gapping behemoths to take pressure of the secondary and put it back on the QB. However, and I acknowledge we have had some tough guards on occasion, the offensive line remains largely one dimensional. I think its conscious resource optimization, and finding the right profile for Scar to coach up, but for years I have seen them as very strong pass blockers but typically poor run blockers. I just watch and didn't play or coach, so would really love a more educated opinion here...or just flame war, whatever.

The end result is it means the RB often has to do it all. I actually think Blount is much maligned and nobody looks good when the DE/DT is wrapped around his ankles in the backfield. So, even though I don't want to cheer for AP I do wish BB would spring for a stud RB and see what could happen. Maybe wish casting, but perhaps a healthy Dion Lewis will give me that chance?

 

[dbn]

I don't pay as much attention as I'd like to watching the run blocking, but I did notice how well Mankins run-blocked in his last season with the Patriots. Of course, they then traded him for Tim Wright and a 4th round pick (that became Trey Flowers, so Mankins helped win SB LI, in a way).

 

[MillarTime]

"No, Adrian"

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

But we were told here that BB makes the final call. Are you saying the guy that owns the team might actually have some say??? Odd.

Belichick bringing Peterson in to kick the tires isn't exactly strong evidence for your position. Unless you think BB likes wasting his own time.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Belichick bringing Peterson in to kick the tires isn't exactly strong evidence for your position. Unless you think BB likes wasting his own time.

Yeah, actually it is, when your position is that both of us are speculating and someone who actually does have inside knowledge of the relationship agrees with my completely logical and reasonable position.


if you've ever been at all successful in any position, when you go to the decision maker and boss to get his approval, you come armed with as much ammo as you can. You've done your research and especially in a case like this, you make your argument as air tight as you can. If this were a 27 yo Peterson - and not one that is coming of injury and is 32 - you just fucking sign him if you have complete control. When you want to do it despite it flying in the face of the comments Kraft just made about Mixon last week - which should tell you more about the whole stance you're taking, unless you think Kraft was being a puppet for BB when he said those things - you need to at least make the case that he's still a viable RB, which is up for debate. BB kicks the tires on a lot of guys every year, bringing in AP for an hour long workout and tour of the locker room doesn't even hint that he has final say, precisely as Howe states.

But keep on thinking that Kraft got where he is today by answering to his employees.

 

[lexrageorge]

It's fairly reasonable to assume the Belichick has been allowed to bring in whomever he wants for a workout. That would be consistent with Kraft's previous statements that Belichick handles all football matters.

However, it's also reasonable to assume that Kraft expects that Belichick keeps Kraft informed of such moves when it involves a higher profile and controversial player such as Peterson; I cannot imagine Kraft would want to learn from the press that AP is coming in for a workout.

It's also reasonable to assume that Kraft may have ultimate veto power, and while that power is unlikely to ever come to play, it could happen if Kraft feels the PR hit to bring in a guy like AP is just not worth the on field contributions. But I have to believe the two would probably have a discussion first and come to agreement on whatever decision is made; the two have been working together for 17 years, so I'm fairly certain Belichick understands the expectations that Kraft has with regards to roster decisions. I'm fairly convinced the relationship between BB and Kraft goes well beyond what was shown in the heavily edited A Football Life episode.

Both Aqib Talib and Haynesworth have suited up for NWE, so it's clear that both Kraft and BB are more than willing to look past poor behavior if they feel the player will help them win on the field. But those 2 examples do not mean that there are no limits to what Kraft will accept. AP could very well be a bridge too far; Ray Rice likely would be. Pacman Jones never even got a workout despite some folks on both the talk shows and this forum clamoring for the Pats to bring him in.

As noted above, the AP point is mostly moot; it's likely that he doesn't have enough left in the tank for the discussion to even take place between BB and Kraft.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

Yeah, actually it is, when your position is that both of us are speculating and someone who actually does have inside knowledge of the relationship agrees with my completely logical and reasonable position.


if you've ever been at all successful in any position, when you go to the decision maker and boss to get his approval, you come armed with as much ammo as you can. You've done your research and especially in a case like this, you make your argument as air tight as you can. If this were a 27 yo Peterson - and not one that is coming of injury and is 32 - you just fucking sign him if you have complete control. When you want to do it despite it flying in the face of the comments Kraft just made about Mixon last week - which should tell you more about the whole stance you're taking, unless you think Kraft was being a puppet for BB when he said those things - you need to at least make the case that he's still a viable RB, which is up for debate. BB kicks the tires on a lot of guys every year, bringing in AP for an hour long workout and tour of the locker room doesn't even hint that he has final say, precisely as Howe states.

But keep on thinking that Kraft got where he is today by answering to his employees.

One thing I've learned about successful people is that they're usually not smug condescending pricks. But I guess there are exceptions.

Anyway, I entered the discussion when someone said Kraft wouldn't allow Belichick to bench or trade Brady, even if Brady was playing so poorly he was tanking the season. I find that (especially not allowing the benching) preposterous.

I'm sure Belichick picks his battles, like we all do. And it's unlikely a marginal roster decision like Peterson would lead to any lines being drawn in the sand. But do you think BB got where he was by letting owners meddle with his roster decisions?

I'll concede that Kraft has final roster say in the sense he can just fire Belichick if they disagree strongly enough.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

One thing I've learned about successful people is that they're usually not smug condescending pricks. But I guess there are exceptions.

Anyway, I entered the discussion when someone said Kraft wouldn't allow Belichick to bench or trade Brady, even if Brady was playing so poorly he was tanking the season. I find that (especially not allowing the benching) preposterous.

I'm sure Belichick picks his battles, like we all do. And it's unlikely a marginal roster decision like Peterson would lead to any lines being drawn in the sand. But do you think BB got where he was by letting owners meddle with his roster decisions?

I'll concede that Kraft has final roster say in the sense he can just fire Belichick if they disagree strongly enough.

My comment wasn't intended to be a "smug condescending prick", it was meant to draw a parallel. If you took it as such, apologies, but maybe you're reading too much into it.

Decisions like trading Tom Brady or signing AP aren't "meddling". Those are franchise altering decisions that impact the bottom line, the fanbase and the brand. It's not like I'm suggesting that Kraft is checking in on who's on the practices squad. He's not Jerry Jones and I, nor anyone else, has suggested as much. But to think BB is going to walk into Kraft's office and say "I'm trading TB and I'm drafting Mixon, I don't give a shit what you think, if you don't like it, fire me" and that Kraft would cowtow, is ridiculously naive IMO. That's not how relationships that have lasted this long work, nor is it how any good organization operates. Nor is it how someone like Kraft works.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

My comment wasn't intended to be a "smug condescending prick", it was meant to draw a parallel. If you took it as such, apologies, but maybe you're reading too much into it.

Decisions like trading Tom Brady or signing AP aren't "meddling". Those are franchise altering decisions that impact the bottom line, the fanbase and the brand. It's not like I'm suggesting that Kraft is checking in on who's on the practices squad. He's not Jerry Jones and I, nor anyone else, has suggested as much. But to think BB is going to walk into Kraft's office and say "I'm trading TB and I'm drafting Mixon, I don't give a shit what you think, if you don't like it, fire me" and that Kraft would cowtow, is ridiculously naive IMO. That's not how relationships that have lasted this long work, nor is it how any good organization operates. Nor is it how someone like Kraft works.

I completely agree with your second paragraph and never meant to convey anything resembling the bolded. (Although I do believe BB in general has final say on the roster, and also that there are places he would draw the line if Kraft interfered.)

 

[Stitch01]

One thing I've learned about successful people is that they're usually not smug condescending pricks. But I guess there are exceptions.

Anyway, I entered the discussion when someone said Kraft wouldn't allow Belichick to bench or trade Brady, even if Brady was playing so poorly he was tanking the season. I find that (especially not allowing the benching) preposterous.

I'm sure Belichick picks his battles, like we all do. And it's unlikely a marginal roster decision like Peterson would lead to any lines being drawn in the sand. But do you think BB got where he was by letting owners meddle with his roster decisions?

I'll concede that Kraft has final roster say in the sense he can just fire Belichick if they disagree strongly enough.

Yeah, i doubt Kraft ever orders BB to play Brady if he's playing badly, that seems like a bridge too far.

To me that's different than "Hey Bob, Brady was a very good QB again this year and led us on another deep playoff run, but we're gonna ship him to Arizona and make the move to Jimmy G"

FWIW, I also doubt that Kraft would interfere if BB said "Hey Brady is 41, so I want to franchise Jimmy even though he isnt going to play next year. QB is that important and Jimmy is that good". I dont think the Pats will do that, but I expect Kraft would sign off on that.

 

[Super Nomario]

In Patriot Reign, Michael Holley paints a picture where Kraft largely defers to Belichick but is far from hands-off in the day-to-day activities:

Kraft believed in giving managers their space, but he did not believe in giving any manager carte blanche. He wasn't going to let Parcells wall him off in football operations while "the suits" did their jobs elsewhere. As an owner, he was going to ask business questions. And as a football fan who had paid more for a team than anyone before him, he believed that he was entitled to have his football questions answered. It was his team."

Holley contrasts Parcells' attitude with Belichick's willingness to have in-depth conversations with both Robert and Jonathan Kraft, even as DC. He also quotes Belichick as praising Kraft's "outstanding business sense" and adding "it helps the coach so much to have a resource like that."

Also see Belichick's comments in his press conference when they announced cutting Aaron Hernandez:

After consultation with ownership, we acted swiftly and decisively. Robert [Kraft] and his family and I, since I got here in 2000, have always emphasized the need for our team and our players and our organization to represent the community the right away both on and off the field. We’ve worked very hard together over the past 14 years to put together a winning team that’s a pillar in the community. I agree 100 percent with the comments that Robert has already made on the situation; I stand behind those as well. This case involves an individual who happened to be a New England Patriot. We certainly do not condone unacceptable behavior and this does not in any way represent the way that the New England Patriots want to do things.

It seems clear to me that a) Belichick and Kraft are aligned as a general matter on the values and principles they have as far as what kind of players they will employ or not employ based on off-field stuff. I imagine Belichick consulted with Kraft about Peterson. I imagine he would have to consult with him on Mixon, but I also imagine that he wouldn't even ask on Mixon because they've already decided in advance that violence against women is a no-no (per public statements from Robert, Myra, and Jonathan Kraft). b) Belichick talks with Kraft about a lot of stuff, some of which Kraft has purely a fan-type interest in (and presumably zero input) and some of which he has legitimate business input. For contracts, we have heard of Robert working on Brady's deal and I believe Jonathan is also involved in some contract discussions.

The Patriots are more than half of Kraft's net worth. He's the one who's cutting the checks. Obviously he needs to be part of the discussion when Belichick is talking about handing Stephon Gilmore tens of millions of guaranteed dollars. And it certainly seems like the relationship is working well for everybody.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account @RapSheet 3m3 minutes ago
Barring a dramatic shift, Adrian Peterson is not expected to have a deal with prior to the draft. Teams involved will continue to monitor.