Full Version: SoSH Hall of Fame thread IV: 2011 The Future!
1990 is up and the deadline is the Sunday after Thanksgiving to give everyone a little more time.
URI, you couldnt have stuck the "F." in his name? 
Salvatore Leonardo Bando
College: Arizona State
Some relevant stats:
4 time All Star, 3 time top-5 MVP (1971, 1973, 1974)
1031 BB career, 91st all time
3 times top-10 OPS+, 5 times top-10 RBI
Most RBI, American League (1968-1977)
Reggie Jackson ... 928
Sal Bando ... 871
Carl Yastrzemski ... 863
George Scott ... 776
Boog Powell ... 711
9 post-season series: .245/.328/.409, 5 HR, 13 RBI, 21 R
Career EQA: .286
Seasons WARP3 7+: 1969, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978
Seasons WARP3 6-7: 1968, 1970, 1971, 1975
Defense at 3B (career): Rate2 - 98, RAR2 - 203, RAA2 - -33
In 1979 Sal pitched 3 relief innings for the Brewers. Allowed 2 runs on 3 hits, no walks.
After retiring, Sal went on to become the Brewers GM.
From The Baseball Page:
At the age of 25, Bando appeared to have a chance at a Hall of Fame career, but like many of his A's supporting players, he petered out in his 30s. Despite that, he was a very good player who drew walks, had good power and fielded well at the hot corner. He was considered by many experts and teammates to be the glue that held the 1970s A's together.
Bando was the best position player in the league, according to MVP voters who placed him second to teammate Vida Blue. Bando hit .271 with 24 homers and 94 RBI, which doesn't sound too great today, but in that league it was very good.
In the 1973 World Series, A's owner Charlie Finley lost his mind. After his second baseman Mike Andrews made two errors against the Mets, Finely tried to release the infielder. The commissioner stepped in and stopped him and in response to the attack on hits teammate, Bando wore a black arm band to show his solidarity. The rest of the A's followed his lead.
From Wikkipedia (take it for what it's worth):
Bando was named the Milwaukee Brewers General Manager on October 8, 1991.
Due to a variety of reasons (including low payroll, bad free agent signings and poor amateur drafts) Bando managed to build only one winning team in seven plus years as GM, the 1992 Brewers. That team ended the season with 92 wins and 70 loses under the only manager Bando ever hired in his tenure as GM, Phil Garner.
One of the lowlights of his tenure happened after that 1992 season, when the club did not offer fan favorite, career Brewer, and future Hall of Famer Paul Molitor salary arbitration until the 11th hour. Molitor signed a free-agent deal with the Toronto Blue Jays. This was noted by some as one of the worst public relations blunders in Brewers history.
Bando held his position as GM until August 12, 1999. He was reassigned within the organization and replaced by former Atlanta Braves assistant GM Dean Taylor.
From Baseball Library:
Bando was a power-hitting third baseman and co-captain of the raucous Oakland A's dynasty that won five straight AL Western Division titles (1971-75) and three straight World Series (1972-74). He was the glue of the infield, although, characteristically for that team, he didn't always show respect for management. In June 1974, after a disappointing loss, he observed that A's manager Alvin Dark "couldn't manage a meat market." And although he was chosen for four All-Star teams, he never started, having the misfortune to play during Brooks Robinson's final years.
Bando managed to stick with colorful A's owner Charlie Finley for 11 seasons, including the last two years the franchise was in Kansas City. In both 1969 and 1971, Bando hit two grand slams. In the seventh game of 1972 World Series, he knocked in a run with a double, then scored the eventual winning run on Gene Tenace's double in the sixth inning of a 3-2 A's victory.
Bando's best year came in 1973, when he led the league in doubles with 32 and hit a career-high .287 with 29 HR and 98 RBI. In the 1973 playoffs against Baltimore, he nearly hit three homers in the second game, a 6-3 Oakland win. In the third inning Al Bumbry made a spectacular leaping catch of Bando's first long drive. Following Game Two of the 1973 Series, he prompted the black armbands the players wore to show their feelings over the Mike Andrews incident, when Finley roasted the unfortunate second baseman's two-error performance. In the 1974 playoffs against Baltimore, Bando hit two homers. His solo homer off Jim Palmer in Game Three provided the game's only run, and in the fourth and final game Bando scored the eventual winning run on Reggie Jackson's seventh-inning double, the only hit for Oakland that afternoon.
Bando escaped Finley in 1977 when he signed with the Brewers as a free agent, and stayed around long enough to see his younger brother, Chris, reach the majors in 1981 with Cleveland.
College: Arizona State
Some relevant stats:
4 time All Star, 3 time top-5 MVP (1971, 1973, 1974)
1031 BB career, 91st all time
3 times top-10 OPS+, 5 times top-10 RBI
Most RBI, American League (1968-1977)
Reggie Jackson ... 928
Sal Bando ... 871
Carl Yastrzemski ... 863
George Scott ... 776
Boog Powell ... 711
9 post-season series: .245/.328/.409, 5 HR, 13 RBI, 21 R
Career EQA: .286
Seasons WARP3 7+: 1969, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978
Seasons WARP3 6-7: 1968, 1970, 1971, 1975
Defense at 3B (career): Rate2 - 98, RAR2 - 203, RAA2 - -33
In 1979 Sal pitched 3 relief innings for the Brewers. Allowed 2 runs on 3 hits, no walks.
After retiring, Sal went on to become the Brewers GM.
From The Baseball Page:
At the age of 25, Bando appeared to have a chance at a Hall of Fame career, but like many of his A's supporting players, he petered out in his 30s. Despite that, he was a very good player who drew walks, had good power and fielded well at the hot corner. He was considered by many experts and teammates to be the glue that held the 1970s A's together.
Bando was the best position player in the league, according to MVP voters who placed him second to teammate Vida Blue. Bando hit .271 with 24 homers and 94 RBI, which doesn't sound too great today, but in that league it was very good.
In the 1973 World Series, A's owner Charlie Finley lost his mind. After his second baseman Mike Andrews made two errors against the Mets, Finely tried to release the infielder. The commissioner stepped in and stopped him and in response to the attack on hits teammate, Bando wore a black arm band to show his solidarity. The rest of the A's followed his lead.
From Wikkipedia (take it for what it's worth):
Bando was named the Milwaukee Brewers General Manager on October 8, 1991.
Due to a variety of reasons (including low payroll, bad free agent signings and poor amateur drafts) Bando managed to build only one winning team in seven plus years as GM, the 1992 Brewers. That team ended the season with 92 wins and 70 loses under the only manager Bando ever hired in his tenure as GM, Phil Garner.
One of the lowlights of his tenure happened after that 1992 season, when the club did not offer fan favorite, career Brewer, and future Hall of Famer Paul Molitor salary arbitration until the 11th hour. Molitor signed a free-agent deal with the Toronto Blue Jays. This was noted by some as one of the worst public relations blunders in Brewers history.
Bando held his position as GM until August 12, 1999. He was reassigned within the organization and replaced by former Atlanta Braves assistant GM Dean Taylor.
From Baseball Library:
Bando was a power-hitting third baseman and co-captain of the raucous Oakland A's dynasty that won five straight AL Western Division titles (1971-75) and three straight World Series (1972-74). He was the glue of the infield, although, characteristically for that team, he didn't always show respect for management. In June 1974, after a disappointing loss, he observed that A's manager Alvin Dark "couldn't manage a meat market." And although he was chosen for four All-Star teams, he never started, having the misfortune to play during Brooks Robinson's final years.
Bando managed to stick with colorful A's owner Charlie Finley for 11 seasons, including the last two years the franchise was in Kansas City. In both 1969 and 1971, Bando hit two grand slams. In the seventh game of 1972 World Series, he knocked in a run with a double, then scored the eventual winning run on Gene Tenace's double in the sixth inning of a 3-2 A's victory.
Bando's best year came in 1973, when he led the league in doubles with 32 and hit a career-high .287 with 29 HR and 98 RBI. In the 1973 playoffs against Baltimore, he nearly hit three homers in the second game, a 6-3 Oakland win. In the third inning Al Bumbry made a spectacular leaping catch of Bando's first long drive. Following Game Two of the 1973 Series, he prompted the black armbands the players wore to show their feelings over the Mike Andrews incident, when Finley roasted the unfortunate second baseman's two-error performance. In the 1974 playoffs against Baltimore, Bando hit two homers. His solo homer off Jim Palmer in Game Three provided the game's only run, and in the fourth and final game Bando scored the eventual winning run on Reggie Jackson's seventh-inning double, the only hit for Oakland that afternoon.
Bando escaped Finley in 1977 when he signed with the Brewers as a free agent, and stayed around long enough to see his younger brother, Chris, reach the majors in 1981 with Cleveland.
SABR biography of Dave Bancroft:
by Trey Strecker
Dave "Beauty" Bancroft was Honus Wagner's successor as the National League's premier shortstop. A brainy on-field leader with tremendous defensive range, Bancroft was especially adept at scooping up bad-hop grounders and cutting off outfield throws to hang up runners between bases. He believed that "the business of batting and fielding is a contention between minds," crediting his uncanny intuition in the field to a rigorous study of opposing batters, but he also had extremely quick hands and could move gracefully in either direction. Though he batted only .248 during his five seasons in the Deadball Era, the switch-hitting Bancroft became known as a "timely swatter and a good waiter"; he ranked second in the NL in bases on balls in 1915 and third in 1916 and 1918.
The youngest of three children born to Ella (Gearhart) Bancroft and her husband, Frank, a truck farmer and newsvendor on the Milwaukee Railroad, David James Bancroft was born on April 20, 1891, in Sioux City, Iowa. Dave attended Hopkins Grade School and Sioux City High School. During the summer after his junior year of 1909, he began his professional baseball career with Duluth, Minnesota, that year's Minnesota-Wisconsin League champions. In midseason Duluth sent the 18-year-old shortstop to Superior, Wisconsin, its rival on the south shore of St. Louis Bay. For the summer Bancroft batted .210 with only six extra-base hits in 111 games. He returned to Superior the next year and played in a league-leading 127 games, improving his average to .267, stealing 38 bases, and earning a reputation as a defensive star. Dave remained there after the season to marry Edna Harriet Gisin. The couple, which remained childless, continued to make their home in the Lake Superior harbor town for the rest of their lives.
After hitting .273 with 41 stolen bases in his third year at Superior, Bancroft was drafted by the Portland Beavers of the Class AA Pacific Coast League in the fall of 1911. The next year he batted just .207 and was demoted to the Colts, Portland's club in the Class B Northwestern League. Two of Bancroft's 1913 Colts teammates--Harry Heilmann and Carl Mays--were bought by Detroit, but the best Dave could manage after hitting .244 was a promotion back to the PCL. Batting leadoff, "Beauty" (a nickname he received because of his habit of shouting "Beauty" every time his pitcher threw a good-looking pitch) hit .271 in 176 games and led the Beavers to the PCL championship, prompting fans to compare him to Roger Peckinpaugh, who had starred at shortstop with the 1911 Portland club. Cleveland and the New York Giants had the first two picks of any of the Portland players. The Indians selected Bill Rodgers, Bancroft's partner in the middle infield, while the Giants, fearing that Bancroft wanted too much money and might sign with the Federal League, chose third-baseman Art Kores (who ironically did jump to the Feds). Phillies scout Cap Neal stole Bancroft for a mere $5,000.
Whatever worries Philadelphia fans had that the rookie wouldn't be able to replace their revered Mickey Doolan in the short field were unfounded. Bancroft was the sensation of the year, sparking the Phillies to their first NL pennant by batting .254 with a career-high seven home runs (six of them at the Baker Bowl) and playing spectacular defense. On August 12, for instance, he initiated a triple play against the Giants. With Larry Doyle on third and Buck Herzog on second, Dave Robertson got the hit-and-run sign and lined the ball to Bancroft, who caught the drive and whipped the ball to Bobby Byrne, catching Doyle several feet off third, and then taking Byrne's return throw to catch Herzog off second. Manager Pat Moran insisted that Dave was the difference between the pennant-winners of 1915 and the sixth-place club of 1914. In the World Series the 24-year-old Bancroft hit .294, more than 100 points higher than the Phillies hit as a team.
Bancroft suffered through a sophomore slump in 1916, batting a career-low .212 with just 13 extra-base hits, and his late-season injury decimated the Phillies' pennant drive. His batting average rose consistently for the next six seasons, however, and in 1918 he led NL shortstops in chances handled for the first of four times. In five seasons in Philadelphia Bancroft established a reputation as a smart, scrappy ballplayer, well suited to the scientific game--exactly the type of player John McGraw coveted. At McGraw's suggestion, Giants owner Charles Stoneham telephoned Phillies president William Baker on June 7, 1920, and offered shortstop Art Fletcher, pitcher Wilbur Hubbell, and $100,000 for Bancroft. An incredulous Baker took the first train to New York the next morning and consummated the deal, bringing along the National League attorney as a witness lest Stoneham try to back out.
When Bancroft took the field in his first game as a Giant, catcher Frank Snyder called him to a conference on the mound and offered to explain the team's signs. "Why, have they changed?" asked Bancroft. "If not, I know them already." On June 28, 1920, less than three weeks after his acquisition, the new Giants collected six hits in six at-bats. Bancroft became one of only two National Leaguers to score 100 runs that season, and although the Giants failed to capture the 1920 flag, they won the next three pennants with "Beauty" as their captain. No shortstop turned 100 double plays in a season before Bancroft set the mark in 1921, and the following year he set the major-league record for most chances handled in a season by a shortstop (984). Sportswriter Frank Graham called him "the greatest shortstop the Giants ever had and one of the greatest that ever lived."
During the 1923 season Bancroft's legs began to bother him. In June he reported to the Polo Grounds with a high fever but insisted on playing. At the end of the game Bancroft collapsed in the clubhouse. He ended up being hospitalized with a severe case of pneumonia, earning even more admiration from John McGraw ("Imagine, he played nine innings with pneumonia."). That November, as a favor to Christy Mathewson, who was then general manager of the Boston Braves, McGraw sent Bancroft and outfielders Casey Stengel and Bill Cunningham to Boston for pitcher Joe Oeschger and outfielder Billy Southworth. McGraw wanted to give his captain the opportunity to manage, but he also had Travis Jackson waiting to take over at shortstop. At age 31 Bancroft became the NL's youngest manager.
From 1924 to 1927 Bancroft managed the talent-poor Braves to a 249-363 record and four consecutive second-division finishes, after which he was dismissed. He put in two seasons with Brooklyn as a player only before returning to the Giants in 1930 as a coach under McGraw. Bancroft retired as a player after the 1930 season but remained an important presence in the Giants dugout, taking over the reins whenever his boss was too sick to manage. McGraw finally retired in June 1932 but Bill Terry was appointed player-manager to take his place. A disappointed Bancroft finished the year under Terry and retired from major-league baseball. He returned to his native Midwest and managed sporadically in the minor leagues, guiding the Minneapolis Millers of the American Association in 1933, the Sioux City Cowboys of the Western League in 1936, and the St. Cloud Rox of the Northern League in 1947.
Later Bancroft spent three years managing Max Terry's traveling all-girls team, which took him across the United States and to South America and Cuba. When he finally left baseball he became a warehouse supervisor for Interprovincial Pipeline Company. Retiring in 1956 to pursue his favorite pastimes of hunting and fishing, Bancroft was inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1971. He died in Superior on October 7, 1972, a little more than three years before the Edmund Fitzgerald left that same town on its final voyage.
Note: A slightly different version of this biography appeared in Tom Simon, ed., Deadball Stars of the National League (Washington, D.C.: Brassey's, Inc., 2004).
by Trey Strecker
Dave "Beauty" Bancroft was Honus Wagner's successor as the National League's premier shortstop. A brainy on-field leader with tremendous defensive range, Bancroft was especially adept at scooping up bad-hop grounders and cutting off outfield throws to hang up runners between bases. He believed that "the business of batting and fielding is a contention between minds," crediting his uncanny intuition in the field to a rigorous study of opposing batters, but he also had extremely quick hands and could move gracefully in either direction. Though he batted only .248 during his five seasons in the Deadball Era, the switch-hitting Bancroft became known as a "timely swatter and a good waiter"; he ranked second in the NL in bases on balls in 1915 and third in 1916 and 1918.
The youngest of three children born to Ella (Gearhart) Bancroft and her husband, Frank, a truck farmer and newsvendor on the Milwaukee Railroad, David James Bancroft was born on April 20, 1891, in Sioux City, Iowa. Dave attended Hopkins Grade School and Sioux City High School. During the summer after his junior year of 1909, he began his professional baseball career with Duluth, Minnesota, that year's Minnesota-Wisconsin League champions. In midseason Duluth sent the 18-year-old shortstop to Superior, Wisconsin, its rival on the south shore of St. Louis Bay. For the summer Bancroft batted .210 with only six extra-base hits in 111 games. He returned to Superior the next year and played in a league-leading 127 games, improving his average to .267, stealing 38 bases, and earning a reputation as a defensive star. Dave remained there after the season to marry Edna Harriet Gisin. The couple, which remained childless, continued to make their home in the Lake Superior harbor town for the rest of their lives.
After hitting .273 with 41 stolen bases in his third year at Superior, Bancroft was drafted by the Portland Beavers of the Class AA Pacific Coast League in the fall of 1911. The next year he batted just .207 and was demoted to the Colts, Portland's club in the Class B Northwestern League. Two of Bancroft's 1913 Colts teammates--Harry Heilmann and Carl Mays--were bought by Detroit, but the best Dave could manage after hitting .244 was a promotion back to the PCL. Batting leadoff, "Beauty" (a nickname he received because of his habit of shouting "Beauty" every time his pitcher threw a good-looking pitch) hit .271 in 176 games and led the Beavers to the PCL championship, prompting fans to compare him to Roger Peckinpaugh, who had starred at shortstop with the 1911 Portland club. Cleveland and the New York Giants had the first two picks of any of the Portland players. The Indians selected Bill Rodgers, Bancroft's partner in the middle infield, while the Giants, fearing that Bancroft wanted too much money and might sign with the Federal League, chose third-baseman Art Kores (who ironically did jump to the Feds). Phillies scout Cap Neal stole Bancroft for a mere $5,000.
Whatever worries Philadelphia fans had that the rookie wouldn't be able to replace their revered Mickey Doolan in the short field were unfounded. Bancroft was the sensation of the year, sparking the Phillies to their first NL pennant by batting .254 with a career-high seven home runs (six of them at the Baker Bowl) and playing spectacular defense. On August 12, for instance, he initiated a triple play against the Giants. With Larry Doyle on third and Buck Herzog on second, Dave Robertson got the hit-and-run sign and lined the ball to Bancroft, who caught the drive and whipped the ball to Bobby Byrne, catching Doyle several feet off third, and then taking Byrne's return throw to catch Herzog off second. Manager Pat Moran insisted that Dave was the difference between the pennant-winners of 1915 and the sixth-place club of 1914. In the World Series the 24-year-old Bancroft hit .294, more than 100 points higher than the Phillies hit as a team.
Bancroft suffered through a sophomore slump in 1916, batting a career-low .212 with just 13 extra-base hits, and his late-season injury decimated the Phillies' pennant drive. His batting average rose consistently for the next six seasons, however, and in 1918 he led NL shortstops in chances handled for the first of four times. In five seasons in Philadelphia Bancroft established a reputation as a smart, scrappy ballplayer, well suited to the scientific game--exactly the type of player John McGraw coveted. At McGraw's suggestion, Giants owner Charles Stoneham telephoned Phillies president William Baker on June 7, 1920, and offered shortstop Art Fletcher, pitcher Wilbur Hubbell, and $100,000 for Bancroft. An incredulous Baker took the first train to New York the next morning and consummated the deal, bringing along the National League attorney as a witness lest Stoneham try to back out.
When Bancroft took the field in his first game as a Giant, catcher Frank Snyder called him to a conference on the mound and offered to explain the team's signs. "Why, have they changed?" asked Bancroft. "If not, I know them already." On June 28, 1920, less than three weeks after his acquisition, the new Giants collected six hits in six at-bats. Bancroft became one of only two National Leaguers to score 100 runs that season, and although the Giants failed to capture the 1920 flag, they won the next three pennants with "Beauty" as their captain. No shortstop turned 100 double plays in a season before Bancroft set the mark in 1921, and the following year he set the major-league record for most chances handled in a season by a shortstop (984). Sportswriter Frank Graham called him "the greatest shortstop the Giants ever had and one of the greatest that ever lived."
During the 1923 season Bancroft's legs began to bother him. In June he reported to the Polo Grounds with a high fever but insisted on playing. At the end of the game Bancroft collapsed in the clubhouse. He ended up being hospitalized with a severe case of pneumonia, earning even more admiration from John McGraw ("Imagine, he played nine innings with pneumonia."). That November, as a favor to Christy Mathewson, who was then general manager of the Boston Braves, McGraw sent Bancroft and outfielders Casey Stengel and Bill Cunningham to Boston for pitcher Joe Oeschger and outfielder Billy Southworth. McGraw wanted to give his captain the opportunity to manage, but he also had Travis Jackson waiting to take over at shortstop. At age 31 Bancroft became the NL's youngest manager.
From 1924 to 1927 Bancroft managed the talent-poor Braves to a 249-363 record and four consecutive second-division finishes, after which he was dismissed. He put in two seasons with Brooklyn as a player only before returning to the Giants in 1930 as a coach under McGraw. Bancroft retired as a player after the 1930 season but remained an important presence in the Giants dugout, taking over the reins whenever his boss was too sick to manage. McGraw finally retired in June 1932 but Bill Terry was appointed player-manager to take his place. A disappointed Bancroft finished the year under Terry and retired from major-league baseball. He returned to his native Midwest and managed sporadically in the minor leagues, guiding the Minneapolis Millers of the American Association in 1933, the Sioux City Cowboys of the Western League in 1936, and the St. Cloud Rox of the Northern League in 1947.
Later Bancroft spent three years managing Max Terry's traveling all-girls team, which took him across the United States and to South America and Cuba. When he finally left baseball he became a warehouse supervisor for Interprovincial Pipeline Company. Retiring in 1956 to pursue his favorite pastimes of hunting and fishing, Bancroft was inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1971. He died in Superior on October 7, 1972, a little more than three years before the Edmund Fitzgerald left that same town on its final voyage.
Note: A slightly different version of this biography appeared in Tom Simon, ed., Deadball Stars of the National League (Washington, D.C.: Brassey's, Inc., 2004).
Thanks for posting those, 67YAZ.
So does Cooper have one more year of eligibility, or is he done?
So does Cooper have one more year of eligibility, or is he done?
1990 BALLOT
Dave Bancroft
Norm Cash
Jim "Catfish" Hunter
Sam McDowell
Joe Morgan
Tony Oliva
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
* Sadly, it's the end of the line for the Walker Cooper Express. Watch your step onto the platform, folks...
* Little-known fact: Amos Otis was the Sox' #5 pick in 1965, the first year of the amateur free agent draft. He was a helluva defensive center fielder, but I remember him best for not moving a muscle when JimEd Rice launched his cannon shot over the left-center flagpole in '75.
* Greg Luzinski was a moose of a man at the plate, with popeye forearms, battleship shoulders, and no neck whatsoever.
* Lord, I hated Mickey Rivers. I hated the shuffling saunter as he strode to the plate, I hated the bat twirl between pitches, and I hated the sucker punch on Bill Lee when Spaceman's shoulder was hanging by a thread after the MFY brawl in '76.
* Anyone else remember Bob Watson hitting 3 HR's in 4 games during his first Fenway homestand after the Sox picked him up from Houston? Towards the end of that '79 season, in this game he became the first player to hit for the cycle in both leagues.
He only played five more games with Boston and signed with the enemy just 7 days after being granted free agency.
EDIT - Thanks for correcting my brain fart, Tudor...
Dave Bancroft
Norm Cash
Jim "Catfish" Hunter
Sam McDowell
Joe Morgan
Tony Oliva
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
* Sadly, it's the end of the line for the Walker Cooper Express. Watch your step onto the platform, folks...
* Little-known fact: Amos Otis was the Sox' #5 pick in 1965, the first year of the amateur free agent draft. He was a helluva defensive center fielder, but I remember him best for not moving a muscle when JimEd Rice launched his cannon shot over the left-center flagpole in '75.
* Greg Luzinski was a moose of a man at the plate, with popeye forearms, battleship shoulders, and no neck whatsoever.
* Lord, I hated Mickey Rivers. I hated the shuffling saunter as he strode to the plate, I hated the bat twirl between pitches, and I hated the sucker punch on Bill Lee when Spaceman's shoulder was hanging by a thread after the MFY brawl in '76.
* Anyone else remember Bob Watson hitting 3 HR's in 4 games during his first Fenway homestand after the Sox picked him up from Houston? Towards the end of that '79 season, in this game he became the first player to hit for the cycle in both leagues.
He only played five more games with Boston and signed with the enemy just 7 days after being granted free agency.
EDIT - Thanks for correcting my brain fart, Tudor...
Dog, El Tiante signed with the Yankees after the 1978 season, one offseason before Yankee Bob slinked to his masters like Gollum towards Mordor.
I too hated Mickey Rivers while he was with the Yankees, but I liked him better later on while he was with the Rangers. He has had some wonderful quotes attributed to him, such as:
"Me and George and Billy are two of a kind."
"Pitching is 80% of the game and the other half is hitting and fielding."
"My goals are to hit .300, score 100 runs, and stay injury-prone."
"I don't get upset over things I can control, because if I can control them there's no sense in getting upset. And I don't get upset over things I can't control, because if I can't control them there's no sense in getting upset."
I too hated Mickey Rivers while he was with the Yankees, but I liked him better later on while he was with the Rangers. He has had some wonderful quotes attributed to him, such as:
"Me and George and Billy are two of a kind."
"Pitching is 80% of the game and the other half is hitting and fielding."
"My goals are to hit .300, score 100 runs, and stay injury-prone."
"I don't get upset over things I can control, because if I can control them there's no sense in getting upset. And I don't get upset over things I can't control, because if I can't control them there's no sense in getting upset."
Amos Otis is one of my all-time favorite players. He did everything well--hitting for average and power, hitting a lot of doubles, a great baserunner, lots of stolen bases with a great percentage, an excellent defensive center fielder (with a few deserved Gold Gloves), smart. He was not great in any one area (except perhaps as a base runner), but when you add it all up, he was a joy to watch. He also had very good seasons year after year. He's essentially the opposite of Jim Rice. Rice had great seasons and mediocre seasons, he had much more obvious strengths and weaknesses in his game. When you take everything into consideration, they had fairly similar value, in my opinion.
Otis's game was as similarly broad as Joe Morgan's, except that Joe had the greatest five-year peak of his generation.
Otis's game was as similarly broad as Joe Morgan's, except that Joe had the greatest five-year peak of his generation.
Joe Morgan
Jim Palmer
Jim Hunter
Gaylord Perry
- jmcc5400
Jim Palmer
Jim Hunter
Gaylord Perry
- jmcc5400
QUOTE (Tudor Fever @ Nov 18 2005, 05:51 PM)
I too hated Mickey Rivers while he was with the Yankees, but I liked him better later on while he was with the Rangers. He has had some wonderful quotes attributed to him, such as...
Sorry for the Rivers hijack...On the Yankees team bus, Reggie was bragging about how smart he was. "I've got an IQ of 150 [or some similar very high number]."
To which Rivers allegedly retorted: "You can't even spell IQ!"
Perry
Morgan
Palmer
From the research inspired by this thread (thanks again) I have come to really appreciate Amos Otis numbers. Cant vote for him. But he seems like he was a Helluva player. AT LEAST COMPARABLE TO BONDS
There now that I have pimped Otis.....but not voted for him my job here is done.
Morgan
Palmer
From the research inspired by this thread (thanks again) I have come to really appreciate Amos Otis numbers. Cant vote for him. But he seems like he was a Helluva player. AT LEAST COMPARABLE TO BONDS
There now that I have pimped Otis.....but not voted for him my job here is done.
Catfish Hunter
Joe Morgan
Jim Palmer
Gaylord's gonna hafta wait another year or two for me to vote for him
Joe Morgan
Jim Palmer
Gaylord's gonna hafta wait another year or two for me to vote for him
Sam McDowell
Joe Morgan
Tony Oliva
Jimmy Palmer
Joe Morgan
Tony Oliva
Jimmy Palmer
1990 ballot :
Sal Bando
Norm Cash
Jim Kaat
Joe Morgan
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
Sal Bando
Norm Cash
Jim Kaat
Joe Morgan
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
Sal Bando
Jim Hunter
Joe Morgan
Tony Oliva
Jim Palmer
Amos Otis
Gaylord Perry
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
Jim Hunter
Joe Morgan
Tony Oliva
Jim Palmer
Amos Otis
Gaylord Perry
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
1990 Ballot
Dave Bancroft
Sal Bando
Joe Morgan
Thurman Munson
Jim Plamer
Gaylord Perry
Dave Bancroft
Sal Bando
Joe Morgan
Thurman Munson
Jim Plamer
Gaylord Perry
Mike Caldwell
Jim Hunter
Joe Morgan
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Sal Bando was an awful GM. Any crdibility he had as a player is wiped out by his GM time.
Jim Hunter
Joe Morgan
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Sal Bando was an awful GM. Any crdibility he had as a player is wiped out by his GM time.
OK, I'll bite. Mike Caldwell????? He had an ERA+ of 99 and a won-loss record of 137-130. If this were a Hall of the Completely Average, he'd be an almost perfect candidate.
1990 Ballot:
Dave Bancroft
Catfish Hunter
Bill Mazeroski
Joe Morgan
Tony Oliva
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Vada Pinson
Ken Singleton
Reggie Smith
Dave Bancroft
Catfish Hunter
Bill Mazeroski
Joe Morgan
Tony Oliva
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Vada Pinson
Ken Singleton
Reggie Smith
1990 Ballot:
Dave Bancroft
Sal Bando
Norm Cash
Joe Morgan
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
I'm inclined to vote for Singleton and Smith, but I'm going to need to think about it more; the gap between them and folks like Oliva, Rice, Roy White isn't a big one.
Dave Bancroft
Sal Bando
Norm Cash
Joe Morgan
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
I'm inclined to vote for Singleton and Smith, but I'm going to need to think about it more; the gap between them and folks like Oliva, Rice, Roy White isn't a big one.
Sorry for the delay...
91 is up, with a pretty weak cast given what we had the last few years.
91 is up, with a pretty weak cast given what we had the last few years.
1991 BALLOT
Dave Bancroft
Rodney Cline Carew
Norm Cash
Rollie Fingers
Jim "Catfish" Hunter
Bill Mazeroski
Sam McDowell
Tony Oliva
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
*My vote for Fingers comes with some trepidation. I think he belongs but I'd definitely vote Goose Gossage and Bruce Sutter in ahead of him.
* Kurt Bevacqua had two career highlights. One was winning the 1977 bubble-blowing contest with a 14-inch sphere. The second was being the subject of a LaSorda rant after he'd called him the "fat little Italian in L.A."...
* For some reason, I always wanted Al Bumbry to play for the Sox...
* Miguel Dilone was a fast SOB with the A's. I'll bet no Sox catcher even TRIED to throw him out on his steal attempts at 2nd.
* One of my favorite baseball fight highlights was a mid-70s tiff between Tim Foli & Bud Harrelson. Classic ctuff.
* They called Mike Hargrove the "human rain delay", but he wasn't anywhere near as fastidious in the batter's circle as Pudge Fisk.
* Is Richie Hebner still digging graves in Norwood in the off-season?
* Jerry Koosman was a helluva southpaw when he was on. Sorta like Jon Matlack in his flippancy.
* Sixto Lezcano had one of the greatest first names in the histiry of the sport.
* I distinctly remember listening with my radio tucked under my pillow as Rizzuto lost his voice during an MFY West Coast road trip in '79. They blew a 5-3 lead to Seattle in the last of the 8th when three Mariners -- including Danny Meyer -- hit back-to-back-to-back HRs off Dick Tidrow. Each of Rizzuto's "Holy Cow"s was higher pitched than the one before. God, that was awesome to listen to.
* Rick Miller should get a vote simply for marrying Pudge's sister...
* Al Oliver was one of the more underrated hitters of my lifetime.
* Likewise, Steve Rogers toiled in obscurity for the Expos most of his career. If we were lucky we'd catch a clip of him on TWIB along with a few words from Mel Allen.
* I nearly placed a sentimental vote for Le Grande Orange.
* Rick Waits was the hero du jour after he knocked off the MFY's to force the '78 playoff game. Sure would have preferred to have him on the Sox mound that October 2 rather than Taco Torrez...
* John Wockenfuss had the most fvcked-up batting stance in the history of televised major league baseball. Nobody else even comes close...
EDIT - added Carew
Dave Bancroft
Rodney Cline Carew
Norm Cash
Rollie Fingers
Jim "Catfish" Hunter
Bill Mazeroski
Sam McDowell
Tony Oliva
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
*My vote for Fingers comes with some trepidation. I think he belongs but I'd definitely vote Goose Gossage and Bruce Sutter in ahead of him.
* Kurt Bevacqua had two career highlights. One was winning the 1977 bubble-blowing contest with a 14-inch sphere. The second was being the subject of a LaSorda rant after he'd called him the "fat little Italian in L.A."...
* For some reason, I always wanted Al Bumbry to play for the Sox...
* Miguel Dilone was a fast SOB with the A's. I'll bet no Sox catcher even TRIED to throw him out on his steal attempts at 2nd.
* One of my favorite baseball fight highlights was a mid-70s tiff between Tim Foli & Bud Harrelson. Classic ctuff.
* They called Mike Hargrove the "human rain delay", but he wasn't anywhere near as fastidious in the batter's circle as Pudge Fisk.
* Is Richie Hebner still digging graves in Norwood in the off-season?
* Jerry Koosman was a helluva southpaw when he was on. Sorta like Jon Matlack in his flippancy.
* Sixto Lezcano had one of the greatest first names in the histiry of the sport.
* I distinctly remember listening with my radio tucked under my pillow as Rizzuto lost his voice during an MFY West Coast road trip in '79. They blew a 5-3 lead to Seattle in the last of the 8th when three Mariners -- including Danny Meyer -- hit back-to-back-to-back HRs off Dick Tidrow. Each of Rizzuto's "Holy Cow"s was higher pitched than the one before. God, that was awesome to listen to.
* Rick Miller should get a vote simply for marrying Pudge's sister...
* Al Oliver was one of the more underrated hitters of my lifetime.
* Likewise, Steve Rogers toiled in obscurity for the Expos most of his career. If we were lucky we'd catch a clip of him on TWIB along with a few words from Mel Allen.
* I nearly placed a sentimental vote for Le Grande Orange.
* Rick Waits was the hero du jour after he knocked off the MFY's to force the '78 playoff game. Sure would have preferred to have him on the Sox mound that October 2 rather than Taco Torrez...
* John Wockenfuss had the most fvcked-up batting stance in the history of televised major league baseball. Nobody else even comes close...
EDIT - added Carew
1991 Ballot
Carew
Carew
URI, I believe Rod Carew's last year was also 1985.
Right after Al Oliver left his last big league game, he was seen bitching in the dugout after being pinch hit for in the fifth inning of Game 7 of the 1985 ALCS. He was right. Dick Howser absolutely pwn3d Bobby Cox in this game. Cox platooned at many positions, including Oliver and Cliff Johnson at DH. (Pretty good platoon!) Howser started Saberhagen and then brought in Leibrandt, a lefty, in long relief. Cox took out his left-handed hitters and as a result was helpless when Quisenberry inevitably replaced Leibrandt in the late innings.
Right after Al Oliver left his last big league game, he was seen bitching in the dugout after being pinch hit for in the fifth inning of Game 7 of the 1985 ALCS. He was right. Dick Howser absolutely pwn3d Bobby Cox in this game. Cox platooned at many positions, including Oliver and Cliff Johnson at DH. (Pretty good platoon!) Howser started Saberhagen and then brought in Leibrandt, a lefty, in long relief. Cox took out his left-handed hitters and as a result was helpless when Quisenberry inevitably replaced Leibrandt in the late innings.
I have no idea how I missed him when I ran over the names on BRef...it's fixed.
Speaking of Carew, anyone remember him playing for the Angels vs the Sox when he accidentally swallowed that softball-sized hunk of tobacco he always kept embedded in his right cheek? He was playing first base and suddenly bent over, gasping and hacking, as the ump wondered what the hell was happening. The game was delayed for about 10 minutes, IIRC...
Sal Bando
Rod Carew
Jim Hunter
Tony Oliva
Amos Otis
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
Three easy choices (Carew, Hunter and Oliva) and a bunch of solid hitters. Nice group.
Rod Carew
Jim Hunter
Tony Oliva
Amos Otis
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
Three easy choices (Carew, Hunter and Oliva) and a bunch of solid hitters. Nice group.
Rod Carew
Rollie Fingers
Jim Hunter
Rollie Fingers
Jim Hunter
1991 ballot :
Sal Bando
Rod Carew
Norm Cash
Jim Kaat
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
Amos Otis
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
Sal Bando
Rod Carew
Norm Cash
Jim Kaat
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
Amos Otis
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
1991
Jim Hunter
Rollie Fingers
Sixto Lezcano
Jim Hunter
Rollie Fingers
Sixto Lezcano
QUOTE (Majordad1 @ Dec 6 2005, 04:08 PM)
1991
Jim Hunter
Rollie Fingers
Sixto Lezcano
Majordad, you voted for Mike Caldwell last time, and now Sixto Lezcano, and aren't you the guy who kept voting for Bob Buhl on the old board? If so, should we expect votes for Jim Slaton, Charlie Moore, Pete Vuckovich, Jerry Augustine, and Moose Haas? Jim Hunter
Rollie Fingers
Sixto Lezcano
Lezcano was actually a pretty good player, but if you're serious about your vote, I'd be interested in why you're voting for Lezcano (career 124 OPS+ in 4814 PAs, career WARP3 49.2) and not Carew (career 131 OPS+ in 10550 PAs, career WARP3 115.0).
1991 Ballot
Dave Bancroft
Sal Bando
Rod Carew
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
I'm on the fence with Fingers. To what extent was he a forerunner of the current closers? Would that significantly add to his credentials? Also, what are the best ways to evaluate the careers of relievers (since they're starting to crop up in greater numbers)?
Anyway, I'm finally on the Oliva wagon. They're still 4 or 5 seats left to fill, so please don't be shy...
Tony's Website
Link to an article from Baseball Digest where Tony recalls some key moments from his career. Includes a neat story about scoring the winning run from 2B against the Orioles in 1965.
An Aaron Gleeman article from Hardball Times arguing Oliva is not a HoFer. Gleeman's conclusion: "The career was a little too short, the peak wasn't quite great enough, and there is nothing that I can see that separates Oliva's career from the careers of any number of other non-Hall of Fame hitters with equal or better numbers, a group led by Dick Allen."
A blurb about Oliva's injury history from The Baseball Page:
Oliva was famous for getting into a groove at the plate, and also for suffering through slumps. Rare for a contact hitter, Oliva was streaky. In his second season, he was hitting just .227 in mid-May, and then hit .394 in July to lift his average over .300 for good. He hit .370 in the last two-and-a-half months of the season to win his second batting title, beating Carl Yastrzemski by nine points.
Freak injuries often sidelined the Twins' star even as a minor leaguer. In 1962 he contracted the mumps in spring training, and wasn't back to normal until a month into the minor league season. Twice he suffered injuries (arm and knee) while playing winter ball in the off-season. He excelled in the Winter Leagues, hitting .365 in six seasons.
In 1969, Oliva was red-hot, hitting .475 (28-for-59) in a 14-game hitting streak through mid-July, then he got the chicken pox and missed almost a week of action. When he returned he went 6-for-35 (.171). Just prior to the 14-game tear, Oliva had collected eight straight hits in a doubleheader against the Royals, on June 29.
In 1970, Oliva enjoyed a 17-game hitting streak, from May 13 to June 2. He batted just .316 (23-for-73) during the skein, but did drive in 13 runs and score nine.
In 1971, Oliva was hitting .375 on June 29, leading the league by a wide margin. On that date against the A's, Oliva severely injured his knee diving to stop a ball hit by Joe Rudi. Oliva missed the All-Star Game later that week and played into mid-September on the knee. His average dipped, as he hit .275 in July and was 13-for-61 in September before calling it a year on the 19th. He still won the batting title (at .337) and paced the league in slugging, but the injury stopped him from a monster season.
Dave Bancroft
Sal Bando
Rod Carew
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
I'm on the fence with Fingers. To what extent was he a forerunner of the current closers? Would that significantly add to his credentials? Also, what are the best ways to evaluate the careers of relievers (since they're starting to crop up in greater numbers)?
Anyway, I'm finally on the Oliva wagon. They're still 4 or 5 seats left to fill, so please don't be shy...
Tony's Website
Link to an article from Baseball Digest where Tony recalls some key moments from his career. Includes a neat story about scoring the winning run from 2B against the Orioles in 1965.
An Aaron Gleeman article from Hardball Times arguing Oliva is not a HoFer. Gleeman's conclusion: "The career was a little too short, the peak wasn't quite great enough, and there is nothing that I can see that separates Oliva's career from the careers of any number of other non-Hall of Fame hitters with equal or better numbers, a group led by Dick Allen."
A blurb about Oliva's injury history from The Baseball Page:
Oliva was famous for getting into a groove at the plate, and also for suffering through slumps. Rare for a contact hitter, Oliva was streaky. In his second season, he was hitting just .227 in mid-May, and then hit .394 in July to lift his average over .300 for good. He hit .370 in the last two-and-a-half months of the season to win his second batting title, beating Carl Yastrzemski by nine points.
Freak injuries often sidelined the Twins' star even as a minor leaguer. In 1962 he contracted the mumps in spring training, and wasn't back to normal until a month into the minor league season. Twice he suffered injuries (arm and knee) while playing winter ball in the off-season. He excelled in the Winter Leagues, hitting .365 in six seasons.
In 1969, Oliva was red-hot, hitting .475 (28-for-59) in a 14-game hitting streak through mid-July, then he got the chicken pox and missed almost a week of action. When he returned he went 6-for-35 (.171). Just prior to the 14-game tear, Oliva had collected eight straight hits in a doubleheader against the Royals, on June 29.
In 1970, Oliva enjoyed a 17-game hitting streak, from May 13 to June 2. He batted just .316 (23-for-73) during the skein, but did drive in 13 runs and score nine.
In 1971, Oliva was hitting .375 on June 29, leading the league by a wide margin. On that date against the A's, Oliva severely injured his knee diving to stop a ball hit by Joe Rudi. Oliva missed the All-Star Game later that week and played into mid-September on the knee. His average dipped, as he hit .275 in July and was 13-for-61 in September before calling it a year on the 19th. He still won the batting title (at .337) and paced the league in slugging, but the injury stopped him from a monster season.
Almost forgot to do my five-year update. Interestingly, and probably because we've moved into an era in which several of us actually watched these guys play, we've now inducted as many players from the 1961-72 era as we did from the longer 1944-60 era.
HALL OF FAMERS BY POSITION (through 1990)
171 players total:
P [49] : Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Pete "Grover Cleveland" Alexander, Mordecai "Kevin" Brown, Kid Nichols, Ed Walsh, Charley (Old Hoss) Radbourn, Dazzy Vance, Lefty Grove, Eddie Plank, Joe McGinnity, Addie Joss, Rube Waddell, Carl Hubbell, Al Spalding, Dizzy Dean, Tim Keefe, Amos Rusie, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Carl Mays, Lefty Gomez, Bob Feller, Hal Newhouser, Pud Galvin, Johnny Sain*, Ted Lyons, Bob Lemon, Wes Ferrell, Red Ruffing, Urban Shocker, Tommy Bridges, Warren Spahn, Satchel Paige*, Sandy Koufax, Robin Roberts, Whitey Ford, Early Wynn, Don Drysdale, Hoyt Wilhelm, Jim Bunning, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Billy Pierce, Luis Tiant, Ferguson Jenkins, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry
C [12]: Mickey Cochrane, Roger Bresnahan, Gabby Hartnett, Buck Ewing, Bill Dickey, Roy Campanella, Yogi Berra, Bill Freehan, Joe Torre*, Ernie Lombardi, Elston Howard, Johnny Bench
1B [14]: George Sisler, Cap Anson, Lou Gehrig, Dan Brouthers, Roger Connor, Jimmie Foxx, Bill Terry, Hank Greenberg, Frank Chance*, Johnny Mize, Orlando Cepeda, Harmon Killebrew*, Dick Allen, Willie McCovey
2B [14]: Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie, Rogers Hornsby, Frankie Frisch, Tony Lazzeri, Charlie Gehringer, Joe Gordon, Bobby Doerr, Bid McPhee, Jackie Robinson, Larry Doyle, Billy Herman, Nellie Fox, Joe Morgan
3B [12]: John McGraw*, Pie Traynor, Frank "Home Run" Baker, Jimmy Collins, Stan Hack, Heinie Groh, Deacon White*, Bob Elliott, Eddie Mathews, Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Brooks Robinson
SS [17]: Honus Wagner, George Davis, Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen, Arky Vaughan, John (Monte) Ward*, Luke Appling, Lou Boudreau, Vern Stephens, Jack Glasscock, George Wright, Pee Wee Reese, Bobby Wallace, Ernie Banks*, Hughie Jennings, Joe Sewell*, Luis Aparicio
LF [20]: Ed Delahanty, Goose Goslin, Jesse Burkett, Al Simmons, Joe Medwick, Fred "Cap" Clarke*, Zach Wheat, Sherry Magee, Ralph Kiner, Bob Johnson, Jim O'Rourke, Ted Williams, Stan Musial*, Minnie Minoso, Billy Williams, Harry Stovey*, Frank Howard, Lou Brock, Willie Stargell, Carl Yastrzemski
CF [16]: Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Billy Hamilton, Hack Wilson, Hugh Duffy*, Earl Averill, Joe DiMaggio, Wally Berger, Larry Doby, Paul Hines, Duke Snider, Richie Ashburn, Pete Browning*, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Jimmy Wynn
RF [16]: Babe Ruth, Willie Keeler, Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann, Michael (King) Kelly*, Paul Waner, Mel Ott, Kiki Cuyler, Elmer Flick, Enos Slaughter, Sam Thompson, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Henry Aaron, Frank Robinson, Bobby Bonds
other [1]: Connie Mack
*Denotes significant time at other positions or non-MLB player status, which probably contributed to induction. (McGraw = mgr; Kelly = C; Duffy = LF/RF; Ward = P/2B; Chance = mgr; Sain = coach; White = C; Musial = 1B/RF/CF; Paige = Negro Leagues; Browning = LF; Banks = 1B, Sewell = 3B, Torre = 1B/3B, Killebrew = 3B, Stovey = 1B/RF)
Players in our Hall that aren't in the real Hall (32):
Bill Dahlen [SS], Stan Hack [3B], Joe Gordon [2B], Sherry Magee [LF], Carl Mays [P], Wally Berger [CF], Bob Johnson [LF], Vern Stephens [SS], Heinie Groh [3B], Johnny Sain [P], Larry Doyle [2B], Deacon White [3B], Jack Glasscock [SS], Paul Hines [CF], Wes Ferrell [P], Bob Elliott [3B], Urban Shocker [P], Tommy Bridges [P], Minnie Minoso [LF], Pete Browning [CF], Ken Boyer [3B], RON SANTO [3B], Billy Pierce [P], Dick Allen [1B], Bill Freehan [C], Harry Stovey [LF/1B], Frank Howard [LF], Joe Torre [C/1B/3B], Jimmy Wynn [CF], Elston Howard [C], Luis Tiant [P], Bobby Bonds [RF]
Eligible Players in the real Hall that aren’t in our Hall (retired by 1984) (40)
Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Jim Bottomley, Max Carey, Jack Chesbro, Earle Combs, Johnny Evers, Red Faber, Rick Ferrell, Burleigh Grimes, Chick Hafey, Jesse Haines, Harry Hooper, Waite Hoyt, Catfish Hunter*, Monte Irvin, Travis Jackson, George Kell, Joe Kelley, George Kelly, Chuck Klein, Freddie Lindstrom, Heinie Manush, Rabbit Maranville*, Rube Marquard, Bill Mazeroski, Tommy McCarthy, Herb Pennock*, Sam Rice, Eppa Rixey, Phil Rizzuto, Edd Roush, Ray Schalk, Red Schoendienst, Joe Tinker, Lloyd Waner, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Ross Youngs
(* = voted in by Baseball writers)
HALL OF FAMERS BY ERA (through 1990)
19th Century - 30 players
P: 8 - Young*, Nichols, Radbourn, Spalding, Keefe, Rusie, Clarkson, Galvin
C: 1 - Ewing
1B: 3 - Anson, Brouthers, Connor
2B: 1 - McPhee
3B: 2 - McGraw, D.White
SS: 5 - Davis*, Ward, Wright, Glasscock, Jennings
LF: 4 - Delahanty, Burkett, O’Rourke, Stovey
CF: 4 - Hamilton, Duffy, Hines, Browning
RF: 2 - Kelly, Thompson
[*= Young and Davis could be considered deadball era players.]
Deadball era (1901-19) - 28 players
P: 9 - Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander*, Brown, Walsh, Plank, McGinnity, Joss, Waddell
C: 1 - Breshanan
1B: 1 - Chance
2B: 3 - E.Collins, Lajoie, Doyle
3B: 3 - Baker, J.Collins, Groh
SS: 3 - Dahlen*, Wagner, Wallace
LF: 3 - Clarke, Wheat, Magee
CF: 2 - Cobb, Speaker*
RF: 3 - Keeler*, Crawford, Flick
[*=Dahlen and Keeler could be considered 19th Cent. players]
[* =Alexander and Speaker could be considered inter-war players.]
Inter-war era (1920-43) - 46 players
P: 12 - Vance, Grove, Hubbell, Dean, Coveleski, Mays, Gomez, Lyons, Ferrell, Ruffing, Shocker, Bridges
C: 4 - Cochrane, Hartnett, Dickey, Lombardi
1B: 5 - Sisler, Gehrig, Foxx, Terry, Greenberg
2B: 6 - Hornsby, Frisch, Lazzeri, Gehringer, Gordon*, Herman
3B: 2 - Traynor, Hack
SS: 4 - Cronin, Appling, Vaughan, Sewell
LF: 4 - Goslin, Simmons, Medwick, B.Johnson
CF: 4 - Wilson, Averill, DiMaggio*, Berger
RF: 5 - Ruth, Heilmann, Ott, Waner, Cuyler
[*=Gordon and DiMaggio could be considered post-war players]
Post-war/Integration era (1944-60) - 31 players
P: 10 - Feller, Newhouser, Sain, Lemon, Spahn, Paige*, Roberts, Ford*, Wynn, Pierce
C: 2 - Campanella, Berra
1B: 1 - Mize*
2B: 3 - Doerr*, J.Robinson, N.Fox
3B: 2 - Elliott, Mathews*
SS: 4 - Boudreau, Stephens, Reese, Banks
LF: 4 - Kiner, T.Williams, Musial, Minoso
CF: 4 - Doby, Snider, Ashburn, Mantle
RF: 1 - Slaughter
[*=Mize and Doerr could be considered inter-war players.]
[*=Paige probably should be considered an inter-war player.]
[*=Ford, Mathews and Banks could be considered expansion era players.]
Expansion era (1961-72) - 31 players
P: 9 - Koufax, Drysdale, Wilhelm*, Bunning, Gibson, Marichal, Tiant*, Jenkins*, Perry*
C: 3 - Freehan, Torre, E.Howard
1B: 4 - Cepeda, Killebrew, Allen, McCovey
2B:
3B: 3 - Boyer*, Santo, B. Robinson
SS: 1 - Aparicio
LF: 5 - B. Williams, F.Howard, Brock, Stargell*, Yastrzemski*
CF: 2 - Mays*, Wynn
RF: 4 - Clemente, Kaline, Aaron, F. Robinson
[*=Boyer, Wilhelm & Mays could be considered post-war players]
[*=Tiant, Jenkins, Perry, Stagell & Yaz could be considered free-agent players]
Free agency era (1973-86) – 4 players
P: 1 - Palmer
C: 1 – Bench
1B:
2B: 1 - Morgan
3B:
SS:
LF:
CF:
RF: 1 - Bonds*
[*=Bonds & Morgan could be considered expansion players]
HALL OF FAMERS BY POSITION (through 1990)
171 players total:
P [49] : Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Pete "Grover Cleveland" Alexander, Mordecai "Kevin" Brown, Kid Nichols, Ed Walsh, Charley (Old Hoss) Radbourn, Dazzy Vance, Lefty Grove, Eddie Plank, Joe McGinnity, Addie Joss, Rube Waddell, Carl Hubbell, Al Spalding, Dizzy Dean, Tim Keefe, Amos Rusie, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Carl Mays, Lefty Gomez, Bob Feller, Hal Newhouser, Pud Galvin, Johnny Sain*, Ted Lyons, Bob Lemon, Wes Ferrell, Red Ruffing, Urban Shocker, Tommy Bridges, Warren Spahn, Satchel Paige*, Sandy Koufax, Robin Roberts, Whitey Ford, Early Wynn, Don Drysdale, Hoyt Wilhelm, Jim Bunning, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Billy Pierce, Luis Tiant, Ferguson Jenkins, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry
C [12]: Mickey Cochrane, Roger Bresnahan, Gabby Hartnett, Buck Ewing, Bill Dickey, Roy Campanella, Yogi Berra, Bill Freehan, Joe Torre*, Ernie Lombardi, Elston Howard, Johnny Bench
1B [14]: George Sisler, Cap Anson, Lou Gehrig, Dan Brouthers, Roger Connor, Jimmie Foxx, Bill Terry, Hank Greenberg, Frank Chance*, Johnny Mize, Orlando Cepeda, Harmon Killebrew*, Dick Allen, Willie McCovey
2B [14]: Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie, Rogers Hornsby, Frankie Frisch, Tony Lazzeri, Charlie Gehringer, Joe Gordon, Bobby Doerr, Bid McPhee, Jackie Robinson, Larry Doyle, Billy Herman, Nellie Fox, Joe Morgan
3B [12]: John McGraw*, Pie Traynor, Frank "Home Run" Baker, Jimmy Collins, Stan Hack, Heinie Groh, Deacon White*, Bob Elliott, Eddie Mathews, Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Brooks Robinson
SS [17]: Honus Wagner, George Davis, Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen, Arky Vaughan, John (Monte) Ward*, Luke Appling, Lou Boudreau, Vern Stephens, Jack Glasscock, George Wright, Pee Wee Reese, Bobby Wallace, Ernie Banks*, Hughie Jennings, Joe Sewell*, Luis Aparicio
LF [20]: Ed Delahanty, Goose Goslin, Jesse Burkett, Al Simmons, Joe Medwick, Fred "Cap" Clarke*, Zach Wheat, Sherry Magee, Ralph Kiner, Bob Johnson, Jim O'Rourke, Ted Williams, Stan Musial*, Minnie Minoso, Billy Williams, Harry Stovey*, Frank Howard, Lou Brock, Willie Stargell, Carl Yastrzemski
CF [16]: Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Billy Hamilton, Hack Wilson, Hugh Duffy*, Earl Averill, Joe DiMaggio, Wally Berger, Larry Doby, Paul Hines, Duke Snider, Richie Ashburn, Pete Browning*, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Jimmy Wynn
RF [16]: Babe Ruth, Willie Keeler, Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann, Michael (King) Kelly*, Paul Waner, Mel Ott, Kiki Cuyler, Elmer Flick, Enos Slaughter, Sam Thompson, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Henry Aaron, Frank Robinson, Bobby Bonds
other [1]: Connie Mack
*Denotes significant time at other positions or non-MLB player status, which probably contributed to induction. (McGraw = mgr; Kelly = C; Duffy = LF/RF; Ward = P/2B; Chance = mgr; Sain = coach; White = C; Musial = 1B/RF/CF; Paige = Negro Leagues; Browning = LF; Banks = 1B, Sewell = 3B, Torre = 1B/3B, Killebrew = 3B, Stovey = 1B/RF)
Players in our Hall that aren't in the real Hall (32):
Bill Dahlen [SS], Stan Hack [3B], Joe Gordon [2B], Sherry Magee [LF], Carl Mays [P], Wally Berger [CF], Bob Johnson [LF], Vern Stephens [SS], Heinie Groh [3B], Johnny Sain [P], Larry Doyle [2B], Deacon White [3B], Jack Glasscock [SS], Paul Hines [CF], Wes Ferrell [P], Bob Elliott [3B], Urban Shocker [P], Tommy Bridges [P], Minnie Minoso [LF], Pete Browning [CF], Ken Boyer [3B], RON SANTO [3B], Billy Pierce [P], Dick Allen [1B], Bill Freehan [C], Harry Stovey [LF/1B], Frank Howard [LF], Joe Torre [C/1B/3B], Jimmy Wynn [CF], Elston Howard [C], Luis Tiant [P], Bobby Bonds [RF]
Eligible Players in the real Hall that aren’t in our Hall (retired by 1984) (40)
Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Jim Bottomley, Max Carey, Jack Chesbro, Earle Combs, Johnny Evers, Red Faber, Rick Ferrell, Burleigh Grimes, Chick Hafey, Jesse Haines, Harry Hooper, Waite Hoyt, Catfish Hunter*, Monte Irvin, Travis Jackson, George Kell, Joe Kelley, George Kelly, Chuck Klein, Freddie Lindstrom, Heinie Manush, Rabbit Maranville*, Rube Marquard, Bill Mazeroski, Tommy McCarthy, Herb Pennock*, Sam Rice, Eppa Rixey, Phil Rizzuto, Edd Roush, Ray Schalk, Red Schoendienst, Joe Tinker, Lloyd Waner, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Ross Youngs
(* = voted in by Baseball writers)
HALL OF FAMERS BY ERA (through 1990)
19th Century - 30 players
P: 8 - Young*, Nichols, Radbourn, Spalding, Keefe, Rusie, Clarkson, Galvin
C: 1 - Ewing
1B: 3 - Anson, Brouthers, Connor
2B: 1 - McPhee
3B: 2 - McGraw, D.White
SS: 5 - Davis*, Ward, Wright, Glasscock, Jennings
LF: 4 - Delahanty, Burkett, O’Rourke, Stovey
CF: 4 - Hamilton, Duffy, Hines, Browning
RF: 2 - Kelly, Thompson
[*= Young and Davis could be considered deadball era players.]
Deadball era (1901-19) - 28 players
P: 9 - Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander*, Brown, Walsh, Plank, McGinnity, Joss, Waddell
C: 1 - Breshanan
1B: 1 - Chance
2B: 3 - E.Collins, Lajoie, Doyle
3B: 3 - Baker, J.Collins, Groh
SS: 3 - Dahlen*, Wagner, Wallace
LF: 3 - Clarke, Wheat, Magee
CF: 2 - Cobb, Speaker*
RF: 3 - Keeler*, Crawford, Flick
[*=Dahlen and Keeler could be considered 19th Cent. players]
[* =Alexander and Speaker could be considered inter-war players.]
Inter-war era (1920-43) - 46 players
P: 12 - Vance, Grove, Hubbell, Dean, Coveleski, Mays, Gomez, Lyons, Ferrell, Ruffing, Shocker, Bridges
C: 4 - Cochrane, Hartnett, Dickey, Lombardi
1B: 5 - Sisler, Gehrig, Foxx, Terry, Greenberg
2B: 6 - Hornsby, Frisch, Lazzeri, Gehringer, Gordon*, Herman
3B: 2 - Traynor, Hack
SS: 4 - Cronin, Appling, Vaughan, Sewell
LF: 4 - Goslin, Simmons, Medwick, B.Johnson
CF: 4 - Wilson, Averill, DiMaggio*, Berger
RF: 5 - Ruth, Heilmann, Ott, Waner, Cuyler
[*=Gordon and DiMaggio could be considered post-war players]
Post-war/Integration era (1944-60) - 31 players
P: 10 - Feller, Newhouser, Sain, Lemon, Spahn, Paige*, Roberts, Ford*, Wynn, Pierce
C: 2 - Campanella, Berra
1B: 1 - Mize*
2B: 3 - Doerr*, J.Robinson, N.Fox
3B: 2 - Elliott, Mathews*
SS: 4 - Boudreau, Stephens, Reese, Banks
LF: 4 - Kiner, T.Williams, Musial, Minoso
CF: 4 - Doby, Snider, Ashburn, Mantle
RF: 1 - Slaughter
[*=Mize and Doerr could be considered inter-war players.]
[*=Paige probably should be considered an inter-war player.]
[*=Ford, Mathews and Banks could be considered expansion era players.]
Expansion era (1961-72) - 31 players
P: 9 - Koufax, Drysdale, Wilhelm*, Bunning, Gibson, Marichal, Tiant*, Jenkins*, Perry*
C: 3 - Freehan, Torre, E.Howard
1B: 4 - Cepeda, Killebrew, Allen, McCovey
2B:
3B: 3 - Boyer*, Santo, B. Robinson
SS: 1 - Aparicio
LF: 5 - B. Williams, F.Howard, Brock, Stargell*, Yastrzemski*
CF: 2 - Mays*, Wynn
RF: 4 - Clemente, Kaline, Aaron, F. Robinson
[*=Boyer, Wilhelm & Mays could be considered post-war players]
[*=Tiant, Jenkins, Perry, Stagell & Yaz could be considered free-agent players]
Free agency era (1973-86) – 4 players
P: 1 - Palmer
C: 1 – Bench
1B:
2B: 1 - Morgan
3B:
SS:
LF:
CF:
RF: 1 - Bonds*
[*=Bonds & Morgan could be considered expansion players]
1991 Ballot
Dave Bancroft
Sal Bando
Rod Carew
Norm Cash
Ken Singleton
Dave Bancroft
Sal Bando
Rod Carew
Norm Cash
Ken Singleton
1991
Jim Hunter
Rod Carew
Jim Hunter
Rod Carew
Dave Bancroft
Rod Carew
Jim Hunter
Bill Mazeroski
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
Vada Pinson
Ken Singleton
Reggie Smith
Rod Carew
Jim Hunter
Bill Mazeroski
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
Vada Pinson
Ken Singleton
Reggie Smith
I'm gonna push the deadline to Monday night to see if we can't get some more votes.
Bump
Earth to URI...
Earth to URI...
Come in, please...
Over...
Earth to URI...
Earth to URI...
Come in, please...
Over...
QUOTE (mabrowndog @ Dec 23 2005, 01:24 PM)
Bump
Earth to URI...
Earth to URI...
Come in, please...
Over...
Earth to URI...
Earth to URI...
Come in, please...
Over...
I know its been a busy holiday season, but with the hot stove discussions all repeating themselves for the fifteen cycle, I hope that next week we can resurrect this thread to sooth the baseball beasts within. I've been working on a project with a short deadline, but I absolutely promise that I will get back into this thread next week.
QUOTE (Vermonter At Large @ Dec 29 2005, 09:42 PM)
I know its been a busy holiday season, but with the hot stove discussions all repeating themselves for the fifteen cycle, I hope that next week we can resurrect this thread to sooth the baseball beasts within. I've been working on a project with a short deadline, but I absolutely promise that I will get back into this thread next week.
Yeah. I pledge to get back into it next week. I've had a busy week.
1991
Rod Carew
Rollie Fingers
Catfish Hunter
Tony Oliva
Rod Carew
Rollie Fingers
Catfish Hunter
Tony Oliva
I think URI is dead, and VAL must have a new GF or somthing 
We need this thread back on track. I enjoyed playing the role of wet blanket sports writer, skewing the stats by refusing to vote for Borderlin players.
We need this thread back on track. I enjoyed playing the role of wet blanket sports writer, skewing the stats by refusing to vote for Borderlin players.
I'm not quite dead yet...
Give me a few hours.
Give me a few hours.
QUOTE
I'm not quite dead yet...
Give me a few hours.
Give me a few hours.
IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!
You da man, Jeff!
Excellent. There are lots of interesting candidates whose last year was 1986. We get to vote on Pete Rose, for one thing. Also Cesar Cedeno, so dust off your "enjoys hunting in the off-season" jokes.
Woo, Pete Rose debate time. Well color me purple and call me Nancy, I'm shitted excited just to debate Pete Rose.
SOrry guys...1992 will be up by 5 o'clock.
I'm back...
1992 ballot
Sal Bando
Cesar Cedeno
Bobby Grich
Catfish Hunter
Tony Oliva
Amos Otis
Tony Perez
Tom Seaver
Ken Singleton
Reggie Smith
1992 ballot
Sal Bando
Cesar Cedeno
Bobby Grich
Catfish Hunter
Tony Oliva
Amos Otis
Tony Perez
Tom Seaver
Ken Singleton
Reggie Smith
1992 Ballot
Dave Bancroft
Sal Bando
Bobby Grich
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
Tom Seaver
Lot of interesting players on this ballot. Dave Kingman, Tony Perez, oh...and Pete Rose.
I tend to side with Ted Williams on this one: a life-ban should end when your life ends. Posthumous enshrinement is fine.
But I was curious how many very good or better seasons did Pete really have? The whole Charlie Hustle legend and the adulation of sports writers at the time kind of obscure the actual player.
Season with WARP3 above 8.0 (from BP)
1965 - 9.3
1966 - 8.1
1968 - 9.4
1969 - 9.2
1970 - 7.9 (close enough...)
1971 - 8.0
1972 - 9.4
1973 - 9.9
1974 - 8.0
1976 - 10.2
After '76, he drops off quite quickly except in 1979 when he posted a 7.8. Everything else falls below 6.0, trailing off quickly. But Pete put up a decade of very good seasons.
edit: Grich brainlock.
Dave Bancroft
Sal Bando
Bobby Grich
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
Tom Seaver
Lot of interesting players on this ballot. Dave Kingman, Tony Perez, oh...and Pete Rose.
I tend to side with Ted Williams on this one: a life-ban should end when your life ends. Posthumous enshrinement is fine.
But I was curious how many very good or better seasons did Pete really have? The whole Charlie Hustle legend and the adulation of sports writers at the time kind of obscure the actual player.
Season with WARP3 above 8.0 (from BP)
1965 - 9.3
1966 - 8.1
1968 - 9.4
1969 - 9.2
1970 - 7.9 (close enough...)
1971 - 8.0
1972 - 9.4
1973 - 9.9
1974 - 8.0
1976 - 10.2
After '76, he drops off quite quickly except in 1979 when he posted a 7.8. Everything else falls below 6.0, trailing off quickly. But Pete put up a decade of very good seasons.
edit: Grich brainlock.
1992 BALLOT
Norm Cash
Rollie Fingers
Bobby Grich
Jim "Catfish" Hunter
Sam McDowell
Tony Oliva
Tony Perez
Vada Pinson
Tom Seaver
Reggie Smith
* In light of how dominating he was early on in his career, it's remarkable to see just how mediocre Vida Blue's overall numbers ended up.
* Cesar Cedeno goes into my Hall of Very Good. His skills, especially his power output, eroded markedly in his decline phase.
* Dennis Leonard was one of the better control pitchers I've seen. Not exactly Greg Maddox, but damned good in his own right. But not only did he have far too brief a career, his road ERA (4.20) was nearly a full run higher than at Royals Stadium (3.25)
* Trivia: Gorman Thomas was the first -- and only -- first round draft choice of the Seattle Pilots .... as a shortstop.
* RIP, Al Cowens...
Norm Cash
Rollie Fingers
Bobby Grich
Jim "Catfish" Hunter
Sam McDowell
Tony Oliva
Tony Perez
Vada Pinson
Tom Seaver
Reggie Smith
* In light of how dominating he was early on in his career, it's remarkable to see just how mediocre Vida Blue's overall numbers ended up.
* Cesar Cedeno goes into my Hall of Very Good. His skills, especially his power output, eroded markedly in his decline phase.
* Dennis Leonard was one of the better control pitchers I've seen. Not exactly Greg Maddox, but damned good in his own right. But not only did he have far too brief a career, his road ERA (4.20) was nearly a full run higher than at Royals Stadium (3.25)
* Trivia: Gorman Thomas was the first -- and only -- first round draft choice of the Seattle Pilots .... as a shortstop.
* RIP, Al Cowens...
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