Sure, but what I am trying to say is that this conventional run adjustment isn't completely accurate, because most of the runs added were as a result of increased slugging. As I said earlier, and you reiterated, Belle's OBP (actually just his walk rate and XBH rates) improved over time, and that part translates straight through. Belle therefore isn't probably the best example to illustrate this, but a guy who's OPS is slug-heavy is probably going to get a higher OPS+ basing it on just runs because of that SLG skew. I'm not sure how heavy the skew really is because I don't know the exact formula for calculating things like OPS+ or WARP.



True enough. If Belle was a top-10 hitter in his era, then he was a top-10 hitter. I have no problem with ranking him in the weight-training era against the McGwires, Sosas and Edgar Martinez of the world.



I did say that his OBP numbers increased, but it is relevant, because he posted four seasons where his SLG numbers were well over .600. Those SLG numbers are fine within his era, but if you are going to compare him with Reggie Jackson (who only had one .600 SLG season), you have to adjust it accordingly.



Those were real runs, of course, and his peak was his peak, but some of those raw numbers are a little less impressive in the context of his era. Still, Belle had such high OBP numbers that his RC or BRC numbers stand pretty firm compared to some of his contemporaries, such as Juan Gonzalez, who walked much less often and would lose a much higher percentage of their overall OPS/RC/BRC numbers if correcting SLG only.

So if you want to support Belle compared with guys like Juan Gone, or Sammy Sosa, go for it, but remember to temper his overall numbers if comparing him to earlier players.

Here's a counterpoint on Belle from the lurker "Dcat:"



He makes some good points here, and I will agree that a top-10 hitter is a top-10 hitter in any era, although I think the guys who got penalized in this era were the naturally good hitters who didn't weight train, whoever they are (Belle was certainly not one of them). In a way, maybe this era is the "Curse of Gavy Cravath," where non-weight trained guys were as out of place as the power guys like Cravath or Ed Konechy in Deadball.

I didn't mean to pick on Belle so much as to point out how much the league changed, and take a look at how to compare guys before/after 1993 (Belle just happened to be the first to come before us due to the unfortunate medical problem that terminated his career). I do think that the current purgatory that McGwire and Belle find themselves in is both unfair and necessary. It's necessary until such time as we have a better idea of how the game changed and a more accurate way to correct for it, but unfair because those guys were really good and probably eventually should be inducted.

2006 Ballot
Andre Dawson
Dwight Evans
Tommy John

I'm feeling stingy these days, for whatever reason.

VAL's point about a period adjust is key, I think, but shouldn't really cause all that much hand-wringing. I think the advent of the 1-inning reliever is more difficult ro adjust for. Post-1992 seems akin to the Deaball Era.

As for Belle, I count 6 great seasons (roughly WARP3 10+). I also count 5 great season for Mattingly. Those are fine careers, but i think URI's charts point out how much value guys like Evans & Dawson bring to their teams as players who contributed deep into their 30's and early 40's.

Actual career ERA Between these pitchers is very similar, 2.83 for Sutter and 2.76 for Quisenberry. The difference in the results of those innings are reflected in wins and saves. Sutter had 68 wins and 300 saves while Quisenberry had 56 wins and 244 saves. I give my vote to the reliever with the better production over almost exactly the same period of time/innings.

2006 Ballot

Tom Henke
Bruce Sutter

I will say one thing. You are principled.

2006 Ballot
Albert Belle
Will Clark
Hawk Dawson
Dwight Evans
Don Mattingly
Graig Nettles
Willie Randolph
Lee Smith

* Despite their dominance, I've abandoned ship on the short-career closers (Quiz, Henke) and added Lee Smith.

* My tepid man-love for Tommy John has also wilted.

* It's probably futile, but I want to remind everyone just how great a fielder Nettles was at the hot corner. He may not have been Brooks Robinson, but Nettles and Buddy Bell were his clear American League lieutenants in the 70's. He's clearly a borderline candidate based on his poor OBP, but I think his defense and power numbers put him in. He's got three years of eligibility left.


You know, I really shouldn't be shocked at majordad's ballot, but I am. I've come to expect a handful of voters here who simply enjoy being contrarian, but this is ridiculous. Usually it's the noobs who jump into the thread and ignorantly plunk down votes without doing any research. Supporting Sutter and Henke while NOT voting for the likes of Evans and Dawson is outright lunacy, and I'm dying to hear the justification for it. I remain confused as to majordad's driving forces, because logic, reason and objectivity clearly aren't among them.

Dog, I'm not going to take the bait and turn this into a flame war. I've consistently supported Sutter and Henke, and made my reasons clear. You don't share my respect for modern day closers, with the noteable exception of Dennis Eckersley. Why you value Eckersley and not the others is something I don't understand, but I'm not going to label it lunacy. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.

The criteria for evaluating everyday fielders and pitchers are different. Why you can't understand why I support one group and not another is beyond me. Dawson is on his fifth round, and Evans is on his tenth. Neither has made the cut, and I'm not the only one who isn't voting for them. So why single me out?

My ballots are usually small. I think that the Hall of fame is reserved for the elite in baseball. It's not the Hall of the Very Good. I don't see the love for a couple of players who's career batting average is under .280. It's not like either of them are locks, with 3,000 hits and 500+ home runs. I didn't vote for Ron Cey or Bert Blyleven Jim Rice or a number of players who had very respectable careers. If you want to plead a case, go right ahead. I hadn't considered Henke until someone on this board spoke up. But don't expect me to jump on some bandwagon because you want to lower yourself to ridiculing me.

Didn't you vote for Mike Caldwell once?

Well, this explains it. By relying on the same antiquated metrics and career standards used by hacks like Shank and the hosts of The Big Show, you've clearly broadened your horizons of modern baseball thought. What's frustrating is that I know you're much, much smarter than this, majordad.

Batting Average? Does getting on base by drawing walks and stretching out pitch counts not connote some degree of offensive value in your world? Do you not believe in park- and era-adjusted data that takes into account the full array of a hitter's performance data? How about value-based metrics like win shares, VORP or WARP3?

What role does defense play in your assessment of HOF-worthy players? For you it's either a non-factor, or you never saw them play -- and I doubt it's the latter. For the post-1970 era, Dawson and Evans set the standards by which outfielders should be judged.


That "someone" was me. You're welcome.

And I supported Henke up until this ballot. Through insightful analysis by LoBC and others, I've come to realize that despite his dominance as a closer, his career value falls short of the bar. Ditto for Quiz. Had their careers been longer I might feel differently.

But while I supported them, I've continually harped on both the offensive and defensive value that players like Evans and Dawson brought to the table. The compelling battery of evidence provided in this thread regarding these two players is understood by everyone except you and a couple other voters. I'd have no problems with your votes for Henke and Sutter if those weren't the only players you're voting for.


Ridiculing you? I'm simply calling it as I see it. Any ridicule you feel comes purely from that punch line you refer to as your ballot.

And yet you didn't vote for Wade Boggs, in spite of his career .328 average and 3,010 hits. Not only are your criteria superficial and highly flawed, you don't even apply them with consistency.

2006 Ballot

Andre Dawson
Dwight Evans
Lee Smith

Too bad I got started with this so late.

Welcome aboard, IronManny. Don't worry, we've still got a lot of work planned. We decided in 2005 that we'd evaluate negro leaguers once we finished with all the annual ballots. We've also discussed, but have not yet decided on, revisiting prior candidates through some sort of Veterans Committee.

Yes, once. And Lose Remerswaal voted once for Dale Sveum. It happens here. Get over it.

A couple of points:

First, Dennis Eckersley threw 100 complete games as a starter. Not an outrageously high total for starting pitchers of his era, but at 100*9 innings, that's 900 innings. So just counting Eck's complete games, he threw 110 more innings than Tom Henke threw in his entire career. Eckersley also threw 20 career shutouts; at 9 innings a shutout, that's 180 innings, or 23 percent of Tom Henke's entire career.

Second, I'm guessing that the main thing drawing people to Henke is the ERA+ of 156. It's a good number, probably his biggest positive. Ecklersley, however, counting just his relief years, has an ERA+ of 143 (note: edited my math) in 789.7 innings, ironically exactly the same number as Tom Henke. That puts him up with the elite relievers; tacking on his ancillary 2,500 innings as a starter only helps him.

Eckersley is probably not an inner-circle type pitcher in either our or the real Hall of Fame, but he's practically unique in history for his accomplishments, and therefore he really is not comparable to Tom Henke or Bruce Sutter.

Henke was really never considered an elite closer, at least in my memory, not like Sutter or Smith or even Jeff Reardon in their times. Quisenberry really wasn't either - I put those two and guys like Dan Plesac and John Franco in the "very good" category. I think that was reflected in their low number of AS selections. Measuring relievers by ERA+ is really revisionist. The big closers from the 70's and 80's were all-or-nothing types who challenged the hitters. They had their share of easy saves to be sure, and lost more than a few of the "mano y mano" battles, but relief pitching back then hadn't yet evolved into the current 3-out formula. It was absolutely normal for setup types like Honeycutt or Franco to have better ERAs than the closers.

That's why I suggested using the AS selection list as a primary vehicle for measuring relievers - none of the standard metrics such as ERA, SVs, or even SV% have much meaning with these guys because of the differing roles.

Henke was probably never even a top-3 guy for more than a handful of seasons, but we are advocating him over guys who were considered better as peers?

No, Quisenberry wasn't considered an elite reliever -- he was considered an elite player, period. All Star popularity contests notwithstanding, Quisenberry had four seasons finishing in the top 10 in MVP voting (and one 11th) and five seasons in the top five Cy Young voting. Rollie Fingers captured one MVP outright, but didn't have the same kind of sustained run at the very top.

Fingers was famouser, had a more memorable mustache, and was a quality pitcher for a long time. Quisenberry's value was more focused, into a handful of some the best relief seasons ever. If I had to vote for another reliever, it'd be him or Sutter. Likewise, if his career was longer, he'd be a lock.


I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

---------------------------

2006 ballot

Albert Belle
Will Clark
Andre Dawson
Dwight Evans
Fred Lynn

Notes: Belle is essentially a modern Ralph Kiner, except Belle was a better athlete. I'm not thrilled with the vote either way. He has some of the same positives and negatives as Rice and Singleton, obviously.

Will Clark, on the other hand, whatta ballplayer. I was always peeved that Bill James ranked Clark below Don Mattingly in the New Historical Abstract, even though the Thrill floored Donnie Baseball across every one of James' rating categories. Dang James trying to overcompensate for his anti-Yankee bias.

I almost forgot --- I had been doing "5-year updates" back in the day, and it's time for another one. Note that, for the first time, the list of players in our "hall" but not the real HOF is larger than the list of players in the real HOF but not in our "hall." So, we're officially less selective than the real HOF, albeit barely.

HALL OF FAMERS BY POSITION (through 2005)
207 players total:

P [58] : Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Pete "Grover Cleveland" Alexander, Mordecai "Kevin" Brown, Kid Nichols, Ed Walsh, Charley (Old Hoss) Radbourn, Dazzy Vance, Lefty Grove, Eddie Plank, Joe McGinnity, Addie Joss, Rube Waddell, Carl Hubbell, Al Spalding, Dizzy Dean, Tim Keefe, Amos Rusie, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Carl Mays, Lefty Gomez, Bob Feller, Hal Newhouser, Pud Galvin, Johnny Sain*, Ted Lyons, Bob Lemon, Wes Ferrell, Red Ruffing, Urban Shocker, Tommy Bridges, Warren Spahn, Satchel Paige*, Sandy Koufax, Robin Roberts, Whitey Ford, Early Wynn, Don Drysdale, Hoyt Wilhelm, Jim Bunning, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Billy Pierce, Luis Tiant, Ferguson Jenkins, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Phil Niekro, Catfish Hunter, Don Sutton, Bert Blyleven, Nolan Ryan, Rich Gossage, Dennis Eckersley

C [15]: Mickey Cochrane, Roger Bresnahan, Gabby Hartnett, Buck Ewing, Bill Dickey, Roy Campanella, Yogi Berra, Bill Freehan, Joe Torre*, Ernie Lombardi, Elston Howard, Johnny Bench, Ted Simmons, Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk

1B [17]: George Sisler, Cap Anson, Lou Gehrig, Dan Brouthers, Roger Connor, Jimmie Foxx, Bill Terry, Hank Greenberg, Frank Chance*, Johnny Mize, Orlando Cepeda, Harmon Killebrew*, Dick Allen, Willie McCovey, Keith Hernandez, Tony Perez*, Eddie Murray

2B [18]: Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie, Rogers Hornsby, Frankie Frisch, Tony Lazzeri, Charlie Gehringer, Joe Gordon, Bobby Doerr, Bid McPhee, Jackie Robinson, Larry Doyle, Billy Herman, Nellie Fox, Joe Morgan, Rod Carew*, Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, Ryne Sandberg

3B [18]: John McGraw*, Pie Traynor, Frank "Home Run" Baker, Jimmy Collins, Stan Hack, Heinie Groh, Deacon White*, Bob Elliott, Eddie Mathews, Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, Darrell Evans, Sal Bando, George Brett, Ron Cey, Wade Boggs

SS [20]: Honus Wagner, George Davis, Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen, Arky Vaughan, John (Monte) Ward*, Luke Appling, Lou Boudreau, Vern Stephens, Jack Glasscock, George Wright, Pee Wee Reese, Bobby Wallace, Ernie Banks*, Hughie Jennings, Joe Sewell*, Luis Aparicio, Robin Yount*, Ozzie Smith, Alan Trammell

LF [20]: Ed Delahanty, Goose Goslin, Jesse Burkett, Al Simmons, Joe Medwick, Fred "Cap" Clarke*, Zach Wheat, Sherry Magee, Ralph Kiner, Bob Johnson, Jim O'Rourke, Ted Williams, Stan Musial*, Minnie Minoso, Billy Williams, Harry Stovey*, Frank Howard, Lou Brock, Willie Stargell, Carl Yastrzemski

CF [18]: Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Billy Hamilton, Hack Wilson, Hugh Duffy*, Earl Averill, Joe DiMaggio, Wally Berger, Larry Doby, Paul Hines, Duke Snider, Richie Ashburn, Pete Browning*, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Jimmy Wynn, Kirby Puckett, Dale Murphy*

RF [20]: Babe Ruth, Willie Keeler, Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann, Michael (King) Kelly*, Paul Waner, Mel Ott, Kiki Cuyler, Elmer Flick, Enos Slaughter, Sam Thompson, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Henry Aaron, Frank Robinson, Bobby Bonds, Reggie Jackson, Tony Oliva, Reggie Smith*, Dave Winfield

everywhere [1]: Pete Rose (more than 500 games played at five different positions)

DH [1]: Paul Molitor*

other [1]: Connie Mack

*Denotes significant time at other positions or non-MLB player status, which probably contributed to induction. (McGraw = mgr; Kelly = C; Duffy = LF/RF; Ward = P/2B; Chance = mgr; Sain = coach; White = C; Musial = 1B/RF/CF; Paige = Negro Leagues; Browning = LF; Banks = 1B, Sewell = 3B, Torre = 1B/3B, Killebrew = 3B, Stovey = 1B/RF, Carew = 1B, Yount = CF, R. Smith = CF, T.Perez = 3B, Murphy = RF, Molitor = 3B/2B)


Players in our Hall that aren't in the real Hall (46):
Bill Dahlen [SS], Stan Hack [3B], Joe Gordon [2B], Sherry Magee [LF], Carl Mays [P], Wally Berger [CF], Bob Johnson [LF], Vern Stephens [SS], Heinie Groh [3B], Johnny Sain [P], Larry Doyle [2B], Deacon White [3B], Jack Glasscock [SS], Paul Hines [CF], Wes Ferrell [P], Bob Elliott [3B], Urban Shocker [P], Tommy Bridges [P], Minnie Minoso [LF], Pete Browning [CF], Ken Boyer [3B], RON SANTO [3B], Billy Pierce [P], Dick Allen [1B], Bill Freehan [C], Harry Stovey [LF/1B], Frank Howard [LF], Joe Torre [C/1B/3B], Jimmy Wynn [CF], Elston Howard [C], Luis Tiant [P], Bobby Bonds [RF], Bobby Grich [2B], Tony Oliva [RF], Ted Simmons [C], Darrell Evans [3B], Sal Bando [3B], Reggie Smith [RF/CF], Bert Blyleven [P], Keith Hernandez [1B], Rich Gossage [P], Ron Cey [3B], Dale Murphy [CF], Lou Whitaker [2B], Pete Rose [LF/RF/3B/1B/2B], Alan Trammell [SS]

Eligible Players in the real Hall that aren’t in our Hall (retired by 1999) (41)
Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Jim Bottomley, Max Carey, Jack Chesbro, Earle Combs, Johnny Evers, Red Faber, Rick Ferrell, Rollie Fingers*, Burleigh Grimes, Chick Hafey, Jesse Haines, Harry Hooper, Waite Hoyt, Monte Irvin, Travis Jackson, George Kell, Joe Kelley, George Kelly, Chuck Klein, Freddie Lindstrom, Heinie Manush, Rabbit Maranville*, Rube Marquard, Bill Mazeroski, Tommy McCarthy, Herb Pennock*, Sam Rice, Eppa Rixey, Phil Rizzuto, Edd Roush, Ray Schalk, Red Schoendienst, Bruce Sutter*, Joe Tinker, Lloyd Waner, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Ross Youngs
(* = voted in by Baseball writers)


HALL OF FAMERS BY ERA (through 2005)

19th Century - 30 players
P: 8 - Young*, Nichols, Radbourn, Spalding, Keefe, Rusie, Clarkson, Galvin
C: 1 - Ewing
1B: 3 - Anson, Brouthers, Connor
2B: 1 - McPhee
3B: 2 - McGraw, D.White
SS: 5 - Davis*, Ward, Wright, Glasscock, Jennings
LF: 4 - Delahanty, Burkett, O’Rourke, Stovey
CF: 4 - Hamilton, Duffy, Hines, Browning
RF: 2 - Kelly, Thompson
[*= Young and Davis could be considered deadball era players.]

Deadball era (1901-19) - 28 players
P: 9 - Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander*, Brown, Walsh, Plank, McGinnity, Joss, Waddell
C: 1 - Breshanan
1B: 1 - Chance
2B: 3 - E.Collins, Lajoie, Doyle
3B: 3 - Baker, J.Collins, Groh
SS: 3 - Dahlen*, Wagner, Wallace
LF: 3 - Clarke, Wheat, Magee
CF: 2 - Cobb, Speaker*
RF: 3 - Keeler*, Crawford, Flick
[*=Dahlen and Keeler could be considered 19th Cent. players; Alexander and Speaker
could be considered inter-war players.]

Inter-war era (1920-43) - 46 players
P: 12 - Vance, Grove, Hubbell, Dean, Coveleski, Mays, Gomez, Lyons, Ferrell, Ruffing, Shocker, Bridges
C: 4 - Cochrane, Hartnett, Dickey, Lombardi
1B: 5 - Sisler, Gehrig, Foxx, Terry, Greenberg
2B: 6 - Hornsby, Frisch, Lazzeri, Gehringer, Gordon*, Herman
3B: 2 - Traynor, Hack
SS: 4 - Cronin, Appling, Vaughan, Sewell
LF: 4 - Goslin, Simmons, Medwick, B.Johnson
CF: 4 - Wilson, Averill, DiMaggio*, Berger
RF: 5 - Ruth, Heilmann, Ott, Waner, Cuyler
[*=Gordon and DiMaggio could be considered post-war players]

Post-war/Integration era (1944-60) - 31 players
P: 10 - Feller, Newhouser, Sain, Lemon, Spahn, Paige*, Roberts, Ford*, Wynn, Pierce
C: 2 - Campanella, Berra
1B: 1 - Mize*
2B: 3 - Doerr*, J.Robinson, N.Fox
3B: 2 - Elliott, Mathews*
SS: 4 - Boudreau, Stephens, Reese, Banks
LF: 4 - Kiner, T.Williams, Musial, Minoso
CF: 4 - Doby, Snider, Ashburn, Mantle
RF: 1 - Slaughter
[*=Mize and Doerr could be considered inter-war players.]
[*=Paige probably should be considered an inter-war player.]
[*=Ford, Mathews and Banks could be considered expansion era players.]

Expansion era (1961-72) - 34 players
P: 10 - Koufax, Drysdale, Wilhelm*, Bunning, Gibson, Marichal, Tiant*, Jenkins*, Perry*, Hunter*
C: 3 - Freehan, Torre, E.Howard
1B: 4 - Cepeda, Killebrew, Allen, McCovey
2B:
3B: 3 - Boyer*, Santo, B. Robinson
SS: 1 - Aparicio
LF: 5 - B. Williams, F.Howard, Brock, Stargell*, Yastrzemski*
CF: 2 - Mays*, Wynn
RF: 6 - Clemente, Kaline, Aaron, F. Robinson, Oliva, Rose
[*=Boyer, Wilhelm & Mays could be considered post-war players]
[*=Tiant, Jenkins, Perry, Hunter, Stagell, Yaz & Rose could be considered free-agent players]

Free agency era (1973-86) – 31 players
P: 8 - Palmer, Seaver, Carlton*, Niekro*, Sutton, Blyleven, Ryan, Gossage
C: 4 – Bench, Simmons, Carter, Fisk
1B: 3 - Hernandez, Perez, Murray*
2B: 4 - Morgan, Carew, Grich, Whitaker*
3B: 5 - Schmidt, Da.Evans, Bando*, Brett, Cey
SS: 3 - Yount, O.Smith*, Trammell*
LF:
CF: 1 - Murphy
RF: 4 - Bonds*, R.Jackson, R.Smith, Winfield*
[*=Bonds, Morgan, Carlton, Niekro, Bando, R.Smith & Perez could be considered expansion players]
[*=Whitaker, O.Smith, Winfield, Murray & Trammell could be considered Modern players]

Modern era (1987-present) - 5 players
P: 1 - Eckersley*
C:
1B:
2B: 1 - Sandberg*
3B: 1 - Boggs
SS:
LF:
CF: 1 - Puckett
RF:
DH: 1 - Molitor*
[*=Eckersley, Sandberg & Molitor could be considered free-agent players]

2006 ballot
Albert Belle
Will Clark
Don Mattingly
Dave Stieb

Delta, so you know, Tony Perez is in our hall. Elected in 2001 with 80%. 11th ballot.

2006 Ballot:
Will Clark
Dwight Evans
Jimmy Key
Dave Stieb

Amending my ballot to read:

Don Mattingley
Willie Randolph

I think we need further discussion on the Clark nomination - in my view really nobody should go into our HoF who is not already a slam dunk for the real HoF without some discussion and comparisons. I'll add some of that later, assuming he doesn't go in on this ballot.

As for Evans and Dawson, I still remain unconvinced, mainly because of their peak values and my own perceptions of the times. I still view Evans as being the third best outfielder on the Sox of my adolescence, and it's hard to cut through that bias with logic. I am also having a difficult time isolating the peak on Dawson. Like Rice, he probably stuck around longer than he should have and had too many seasons in deteriorated fashion. Like Evans, there were always better and flashier players around him, which makes it difficult to remember him as being the best player on his teams (although he probably was).

My initial reaction after seeing some of the proposed votes and looking at the lists of who is in the HoF but not in the SoSH version and who is in the SoSH version but not in the HoF is that a number of marginal players are being replaced by a number of other marginal players. Frankly, I like the idea of having a pantheon of the gods and a hall of pretty good players.

I think that you have pretty much nailed it here, Otto and ultimately this is probably the most significant conclusion that we can make of this whole exercise. Actually, the whole exercise has made us a heckuva a lot smarter, and if we are to achieve true baseball wisdom, we might indeed have to divide it up into houses for Gods, heroes, and mortals.

My ballot:
Dawson
Sutter
Quiz
Rice
Lee Smith
Belle

Oops. Thanks. I fixed that. (I did have him listed elsewhere, but forgot to take him off the list of guys not in our hall).

I guess that's a fair assessment, but only if the problem with the real HOF is that it's too big. If the problem with the HOF is that it has done a crappy job of selecting the "marginal" guys --- thanks in large part to the old veterans committee -- then I think our list is way better than the "real" HOF list.

This is absolutely the biggest difference between "us" and "them". Well said.

No one gets in this year.

2007 ballot up, complete with such marginal cases as Ripkin and Gywnn. Complete with more steroid moralizing!!

2007 Ballot
Albert Belle
Will Clark
Andre Dawson
Dwight Evans
Tony Gwynn
Don Mattingly
Mark McGwire
Graig Nettles
Willie Randolph
Cal Ripken, Jr.

2007 Ballot...

Tony Gwynn
Mark McGwire
Cal Ripken Jr
Andre Dawson
Albert Belle
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter

2007 Ballot
Albert Belle
Will Clark
Hawk Dawson
Dwight Evans
Tony Gwynn
Don Mattingly
Mark McGwire
Graig Nettles
Cal Ripken
Lee Smith

Tony Gwynn
Don Mattingly
Mark McGwire
Willie Randolph
Cal Ripken

2007:
Harold Baines
Will Clark
Dwight Evans
Tony Gwynn
Mark McGwire
Graig Nettles
Willie Randolph
Cal Ripken

2007 Ballot
Albert Belle
Will Clark
Andre Dawson
Dwight Evans
Tony Gwynn
Fred Lynn
Mark McGwire
Jim Rice
Cal Ripken

Yeah, but Caldwell wasn't one of the 25.

Can't believe I missed this round. Shall make amends to The Hawk somehow.

2007 Ballot
Jim Rice

I doubt Gwynn and Ripken would want to be in the HOF until Rice was in anyway.

Fox Sports

Dayn Perry of foxsports.com gives his input in the Rice for HoF debate.

2007 Ballot

Cal Ripken
Tony Gwynn
Dwight Evans
Lee Smith
Mark McGwire
Jim Rice


EDIT: Forgot to list Rice.

If you want me to count this vote, I want you to make a compelling argument that Jim Rice is better than Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripkin.

I grew up watching Jim Rice and believe that he belongs in the Hall, but I understand the arguments against it and grudgingly acknowledge that he is a borderline candidate.

That said, it boggles my mind that some here would vote yes on Will Clark and/or Don Mattingly, but would not elect Rice. Even more perplexing is why some are voting for Bruce Sutter when he was just elected last year...anyway, my ballot:

2007 Hall of Fame Ballot
Ripken
Gwynn
Dawson
Gossage
Rice
Blyleven
Morris

Sorry, I thought that it was OK to just vote for (or exclude) whomever you wanted to given that there are so many other ballots here that have 8-10 people on them with names like Mattingly, Clark, Baines, Nettles, Belle and Randolph and no Jim Rice. None of those votes have been challenged nor has there been a request for the compelling argument as to why any or all of those players are better than Jim Rice.

Since I don't think that it is particularly fair to single out only one person's ballot and require that they give a compelling argument for why they are voting the way they are, I'm not really inclined to be forthcoming with an answer.

So, I guess you should feel free to not count my vote.

Good luck though in coming up with the voting outcome for which you are aiming.

2007 Ballot

Cal Ripken
Dwight Evans
Tony Gwynn
Jim Rice
Lee Smith

Rice has been discussed quite a bit in the past in this thread. Go back and read to find out why people aren't voting for him.

This is as much a baseball history exercise as it is creating our own version of the Hall. It's a bit disingenuous to wait until the end and vote without obviously doing your homework.

It's even worse to think that it's about singling you out or massaging the vote totals. What I'm saying is your options are to do the work everyone else does, or don't vote.

Go back and read the thread. Gossage was elected 7 years ago in our Hall.

Alright then, please point me to your previous post that analytically compared Baines, Clark, Nettles and Randolph to Rice and made a compelling argument as to why they are more deserving.

Clearly I misunderstood - I thought this was a discussion of the merits of this years' candidates. My apologies.

2007 ballot
Albert Belle
Will Clark
Tony Gwynn
Don Mattingly
Mark McGwire
Cal Ripken
Dave Stieb

Go and read through the thread. You won't see anything specifically on Baines (first year, he was voted for to keep him on the ballot for more discussion), Clark (I'm working on it).

Nettles and Randolph are starting to get some popular support now, so something will likely be posted on them specifically soon. I'm not your monkey...if you want to prove that Rice is better then them, do it yourself.

There has been a lot of Rice work, and if you are just on here to vote for Rice and add nothing to the discussion, then stop wasting our time...like I said, people have put a lot of work into this thread and I'm not inclined to give you much weight if you are just here to get Rice elected.

For the record, we have two pretty new voters, IronManny, and MikeGatorGreenwell that I haven't agreed with, and they haven't gotten this type of response. The reason is that they seem to have a measure of substance in their voting, even if they haven't presented arguments. Something you lack.

Given how much has been put forward on Rice in terms of his statistics compared to those of other HOF left-fielders, it would be pretty redundant for me to post anything here. And, given that one is seemingly allowed to vote for anyone else such as Baines, Nettles and Randolph, for instance, without positing any argument fot them whatsover, I personally have a hard time getting over the rather blatant double standard.

However, it's your thread and you can run it as you see fit so I will refrain from posting here again out of respect for that. My apologies.

A lot of the arguments you're asking for have been made at one time or another over the last year or so that we've been doing this. Here's a case for each one of them over Rice, in a nutshell:

Belle and Mattingly: Similar to Rice in that they had a defined peak and then fell off. They're in striking distance of Rice in terms of overall career value (win shares, WARP3, whatever), but did it in a much more compressed period of time before their careers were ended by injuries. For all the talk of how Rice was the most feared hitter of his time, Belle and Mattingly --- particularly Belle --- was far more dominant during his peak. The case for Belle is more obvious than the case for Mattingly. Belle never faded away; he was an absolute terror --- with a WARP3 of 10 or more during six of the seven years between 1993 and 1999 --- and then he was gone.

Will Clark: More dominant peak AND better career value than Rice. As great a slugger as Rice was, his career slugging percentage was essentially the same as Clark's. And Clark had a career OPS+ of 138 despite being essentially a merely decent player during the last half of his career.

Graig Nettles and Willie Randolph: I didn't end up voting for these guys (yet), but I can see the case for them, and I definitely can see the case for them over Rice. Both were excellent defensively (at defensive positions) and were consistently excellent players over a longer period of time. Both had far more career value than Rice, and there's a case that Nettles at his peak (1971-78) was more dominant than Rice at his. Neither had an equivalent to Rice's 1978 --- although, interestingly, by WARP3 Nettles's 1976 was about the same. (I'll admit that I find it hard to overcome my intense loathing of Nettles. I friggin' hated that guy. On the other hand, I overcame my hatred of Gossage, and overcame my extreme bias against Mattingly's candidacy, so who knows.)

Harold Baines: Okay, I'm not seeing that one.

For starters, if you're trying to compare Rice and Clark you can take a look at their lines:

Clark: .303 / .384 / .497 / OPS+ 138
Rice: .298 / .352 / .502 / OPS+ 128

or their neutralized stats:

Clark: .307 / .388 / .503 / .891
Rice: .298 / .351 / .500 / .851

I'm not saying that Clark is more deserving than Rice, but you seem to be implying that Rice is so vastly superior to the Thrill that it's not even worth a second thought. It's defintely worth more carefull consideration.