But that also means there would be twice as many commercials! Start the games at 12 and 4:30pm. More money for the NFL and the networks!One, relatively simple thing to do would be to follow BB's request - make ALL calls review-able - including penalties. Mind you , the game would be 4 hours long - and there'd be twice as many penalties..
Interesting— this makes me wonder how much of a psychological tendency there is on the part of weak officiating crews to pile on the road team when a key play goes south for them in a tight game. Crowd roars... narrative starts to build, etc... average-to-bad refs are susceptible to this stuff. I don't know how you'd define the terms exactly, esp. since some players are susceptible to it as well, so it would be hard to isolate the officiating."I feel like the officials last night really let the game get out of control."
“For whatever reason, after the muffed punt, the whole game went south for the Patriots.”
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/11/30/esiason-blasts-nfl-officials-for-letting-pats-broncos-spiral-out-of-control/
I think there are several studies out there purporting to show that referee home team bias is real across many sports. I can't speak to the scientific rigor of those studies.Interesting— this makes me wonder how much of a psychological tendency there is on the part of weak officiating crews to pile on the road team when a key play goes south for them in a tight game. Crowd roars... narrative starts to build, etc... average-to-bad refs are susceptible to this stuff. I don't know how you'd define the terms exactly, esp. since some players are susceptible to it as well, so it would be hard to isolate the officiating.
So based on this analysis of the 6 OPIs called against Gronk, 3 were ticky tack and shouldn't have been called(including both last night, the first one wasn't nearly as critical but the call itself was at least as bad), 1 was borderline and could easily have not been called and 2 were completely legit and should have been called.Reiss, as usual, with excellent analysis of this exact discussion.
Yeah, for sure. Esiason's comments just made me wonder how much a specific 'turning point' play could be the trigger for this-- like, from the refs' standpoint: 'we've called the game fairly straight up to this point, but now that the road team just muffed a punt and everyone's screaming and it feels like the home team should start winning now, our flags are practically coming out of our pockets on their own in favor of the home team.'I think there are several studies out there purporting to show that referee home team bias is real across many sports. I can't speak to the scientific rigor of those studies.
The one that I find offensive is the roughing the kicker non-call. It didn't have a huge impact, but it should like never ever happen....The call that I found downright offensive was the non-call on third down after the Gronk OPI where the Denver DB launched himself into Brady's head without a flag...
Yes.The Gronk and Chung calls were shitty, but more for their context than the actual calls. If the zebras keep the flags in their pocket on either of those calls, which they should have in my perfectly officiated version of the NFL,the Patriots win the game. But those calls happen. My team won on a highly questionable defensive holding call yesterday. Both the OPI and defensive holding are recent points of emphasis that are probably going to get called more than they need to, and in situations where they change the outcome of the game.
The call that I found downright offensive was the non-call on third down after the Gronk OPI where the Denver DB launched himself into Brady's head without a flag. That flies in the face of multiple directives from the NFL as well as endangered the safety of the NFL's marquee star. It was certainly seen by the official who has his eyes on the QB during the play. After that, I honestly wondered how much Correnti and his crew wanted the home team to win and felt something that might loosely be interpreted as sympathy for the Pats, though I repressed those feelings quickly.
What bothered me was the one-sidedness. Let 'em play, or call it tight, but don't let Denver play while making borderline calls against the Pats. If you are going to make the weak PI on Chung call, then you can't let Denver commit real interference on Lafell in OT, you can't let them "block" Chandler Jones by grabbing his mask.The Gronk and Chung calls were shitty, but more for their context than the actual calls. If the zebras keep the flags in their pocket on either of those calls, which they should have in my perfectly officiated version of the NFL,the Patriots win the game. But those calls happen. My team won on a highly questionable defensive holding call yesterday. Both the OPI and defensive holding are recent points of emphasis that are probably going to get called more than they need to, and in situations where they change the outcome of the game.
Bad and inconsistent officiating is why I dropped out of team based sports in college. I played basketball and became so frustrated by the incompetence of the referees that I took up sports where there was minimal refereeing. Tennis and better yet Epee Fencing. Fencing was simple. The ref said go and the first one to five touches wins. Touches were registered electronically from the tip of the weapon. No referee judgement.The officiating is one of the reasons I had such a hard time caring about football most of my life. I never liked that any play can just be negated at any time like that, especially when it's so inconsistent. And unless it's a safety issue, unless it genuinely affected the play, it shouldn't be called, or at least should negate the whole play. If it's an obvious penalty that doesn't affect the actual outcome, throw on some yards after the play, but gently touching someone in a way that looks like holding shouldn't negate a 60 yard pass.
This may sound good in theory but it would make games 8 hours long. The video refs would have to watch multiple replays every play to see the whole field. What if there was an obvious hold that the field refs didn't call but most of the video refs were focusing on a down field pass in real time, and the broadcast replay showed that part of the field instead of the line of scrimmage? I think the officiating is horrible but I'm also tired of the countless long stoppages in play and extra commercial breaks.I've kicked around an idea of a panel of refs that watch the game on TV in real time and relay the call down to an official on the field.
It seems clear to me that if you get a large number of knowledgeable fans watching a game, they usually arrive at a consensus of the "correct" call in near-real-time (assuming neutrality).
My prototype for the system would be something like-
-A head ref and 3 assistant refs on the field
-9 refs, with full referee training, watching the game in real time, with setups that let them choose from a variety of camera angles
-the 9 video refs cannot talk to each other
-video refs are offsite or insulated from crowd, to minimize crowd influence
-any of the field refs or video refs can throw a flag or make q ruling (out of bounds, catch/no catch, TD/no TD, FG/no FG, whatever)
-the calls are made in near real time, i.e. after seeing the play live and maybe 1-2 replays- as if watching a broadcast
-consensus of the video refs carries the day- ie if only 3 video refs call a hold on the left tackle, then no penalty, but if 8 do, then the penalty is assessed
-challenges handled as per current system
There would be a lot of details to work out, but this is essentially what happens whenever people gather to watch a game, including game threads- there are always disagreements, always outlier opinions, but in most cases the group gets to a consensus quickly on the video evidence, and the consensus is usually correct.
Fun to kick around. It could work.
I don't think it matters if they saw it or not...Also the running into the kicker call. Did the ref assigned to watch the kicker not see that?
The idea would be to do it at the speed of the broadcast that viewers at home see. Of course there are many reasons why it would be difficult/impossible to implement. I'm just riffing on the idea that a group of educated fans, watching in real time, will usually arrive quickly at a consensus as to the right call after seeing it live and after 1-2 replays.This may sound good in theory but it would make games 8 hours long. The video refs would have to watch multiple replays every play to see the whole field. What if there was an obvious hold that the field refs didn't call but most of the video refs were focusing on a down field pass in real time, and the broadcast replay showed that part of the field instead of the line of scrimmage? I think the officiating is horrible but I'm also tired of the countless long stoppages in play and extra commercial breaks.
Excellent solution. Try to make sure that more of the screw ups are noticed by fewer people. Solid management.As discussed in this thread, the NFL could try many things to improve officiating. One they're trying now is to move the ones who make errors to games watched by fewer people:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/01/pete-morellis-crew-yanked-from-week-13-sunday-night-game/
And less visibly, the officiating went far to costing the Titans their Sunday, as the League admitted yesterday. And that was not the first time this year.Wilbon (no NE apologist) said on PTI that the Patriots "got hosed" by the officiating
Back judge in picture: Greg Wilson (although profootballreference calls him Doug Wilson). After this game he was reassigned from his crew, because his crew's next game was the high profile Patriots-Colts game.I don't think it matters if they saw it or not...
Edit: Seahawks at Lions - K.J. Wright batting the ball out of the end zone.
And of course he gets the Patriots game ! Fuck Roger
Chris Mortensen @mortreport 9m9 minutes ago
Walt Anderson assigned MNF game before Sunday's games were ever played. Referee Pete Morelli gets Pats-Eagles in 4:25 prime window Sunday.
Shouldn't have watched this while having lunch.Someone finally did it. They put the Chung and Gronk plays side by side.
One of these is DPI, and one of these is OPI. LoL
I think his point on making the game 8 hours long was bringing up the fact that you would have a ton of flags thrown. A slight modification (and maybe your intention) would be that no flag thrown at all if there is no consensus. In other words, 3 of the video judges are assigned to specifically watch the line, 2 have to push the button for a flag to be thrown. The issue here is that they may see different holds, thus breaking the concept.The idea would be to do it at the speed of the broadcast that viewers at home see. Of course there are many reasons why it would be difficult/impossible to implement. I'm just riffing on the idea that a group of educated fans, watching in real time, will usually arrive quickly at a consensus as to the right call after seeing it live and after 1-2 replays.
Are you talking about this play?The call that I found downright offensive was the non-call on third down after the Gronk OPI where the Denver DB launched himself into Brady's head without a flag. That flies in the face of multiple directives from the NFL as well as endangered the safety of the NFL's marquee star. It was certainly seen by the official who has his eyes on the QB during the play. After that, I honestly wondered how much Correnti and his crew wanted the home team to win and felt something that might loosely be interpreted as sympathy for the Pats, though I repressed those feelings quickly.
The Boston Herald’s Jeff Howe joined 98.5 The Sports Hub’s Toucher & Richon Tuesday, and said it’s pretty clear the NFL has made it a point to target the Patriots tight end this season.
“There is no question about that. There is not even a debate, especially after that fourth quarter OPI called on Sunday. That closed the book on that debate; they are going after Rob Gronowski,” said Howe. “He didn’t even initiate the contact and was penalized on that play. That was the worst penalty, up there with the Malcolm Butler PI [against the Giants]. Those are the two worst penalties I’ve seen called this season against the Patriots.”
While some Patriots fans feel there is a much deeper conspiracy at work, given how the league went after the Patriots during the offseason, Howe has a tough time buying that. But he doesn’t fault Patriots fans for feeling that way, especially after they had to stomach the Gronkowski OPI and a horrendous holding call on Patrick Chung later in the fourth quarter on Sunday.
“Maybe there is something out there. How can you say those are unfair things to think after the way the NFL targeted this team? The other side is the officiating has been such a horror show all season long, and you probably have every other team in the league who can point to certain instances and say the officials bagged the game for them,” said Howe. “The conspiracy theory is a tough one to subscribe to, but I think it’s absolutely legitimate when you look at the way they’re targeting Gronk.”
I have no issue with the no call on roughing the passer. But if you are going to call that DPI, why wasn't it called in OT on Talib, which was much worse.Both of these are borderline calls. They went in favor of the home team. That dynamic happens 5 times in every game in the NFL.
I respect your football acumen, but I cannot disagree more here regarding the second call (on the first I think you're 100% right). Thomas pushed off against Chung and Chung held on for 1/2 a second after the push off. Thomas grabbed Chung's facemask too. That's either no penalty or OPI. It cannot be considered defensive holding in any way. It's pretty damn clear on the replay.Are you talking about this play?
I imagine the ref saw both of Chung's hands on Thomas (right before Thomas makes the cut to his right) and then saw Thomas' momentum slowed and his shoulders turn when he cuts. He also slips (most likely due to the snow) and the sum of those parts looked like holding to the ref and he tossed his flag.
Plays like that go unflagged often too. But I can see the moment the ref considered it a penalty pretty clearly. Also bear in mind that the ref throwing the flag wasn't watching the sack happen 30 yards away, so his awareness of the impact of his call on the game action is limited solely to the WR/S matchup. Yeah, it was a big momentum swing for Denver, but it's impossible to expect the refs to not only watch the game action they are assigned to but whatever is happening elsewhere on the field and take that into consideration in a snap decision.
Both of these are borderline calls. They went in favor of the home team. That dynamic happens 5 times in every game in the NFL.
It also looks as if he pushes Chung right below his left armpit- this is the movement of his shoulder and arm, right before the further turn of the shoulder with Chung's hand. Chung's left leg goes up as his body is shoved. At least that's what I see. This call could also have been called OPI.I imagine the ref saw both of Chung's hands on Thomas (right before Thomas makes the cut to his right) and then saw Thomas' momentum slowed and his shoulders turn when he cuts. He also slips (most likely due to the snow) and the sum of those parts looked like holding to the ref and he tossed his flag.
They'd run out of crews.Why not just suspend the crew NFL? if they made so many mistakes that it warranted a reassignment, then just suspend them...
well then hire competent refs... Its the same as in MLB, Joe West should have been fired years ago... If you keep screwing up you should be fired ( and you would be fired in just about any other job in the world)They'd run out of crews.
Two things:Are you talking about this play?
If they had flagged that I would not have freaked out and screamed about ref conspiracies, but I don't think he touched Brady's head at all.
Barrett is jumping up to try to block the pass (his left arm is reaching up to try to tip the ball) and as his momentum carries him into Brady, he rolls to his left and his right arm is around Brady's shoulder. He lands not on Brady, but on the ground and rolls backwards off of the QB away from harming him. At full speed it looked like a pile driver, but Barrett actually did little more than knock Brady down, not slam on top of him or into his head as it first appeared.
This is what is so frustrating. There is no way Gronk's actions are "worse" than Thomas'. That is, Gronk's is not any more obviously OPI than Thomas'. So many calls in football are judgment calls that are bang-bang plays, and the inconsistency is infuriating. Of course, it doesn't help that seemingly every single call in the 4th quarter and OT went against the Patriots.Someone finally did it. They put the Chung and Gronk plays side by side.
One of these is DPI, and one of these is OPI. LoL
That's part of it. It's also that it would take some time to let them see enough replays to be able to decide on every play. The broadcast doesn't show us replays of the entire field after each play because we'd miss the next play. If they adopted OCST's plan they'd have to slow things down to allow the video refs enough time to judge each play fairly. Otherwise the available replays would be pretty random from play to play and wouldn't really solve the problem.I think his point on making the game 8 hours long was bringing up the fact that you would have a ton of flags thrown.
I can see the argument for both OPI and Defensive Holding... my point above was to illustrate what I suspect the ref saw in real time. two hands on DT for a second followed by DT making a cut, slipping a bit and his shoulders shifting. I guess I'm arguing that it wasn't a "phantom call" with no basis in reality. I'm not arguing that it was the right call. I'm just saying the replay shows what the ref was most likely thinking in the heat of action.I respect your football acumen, but I cannot disagree more here regarding the second call (on the first I think you're 100% right). Thomas pushed off against Chung and Chung held on for 1/2 a second after the push off. Thomas grabbed Chung's facemask too. That's either no penalty or OPI. It cannot be considered defensive holding in any way. It's pretty damn clear on the replay.
That's a garbage call by a garbage ref clearly favoring the home team (I don't think he's a Broncos fan, but he's giving the home team a non-givable call) at the key juncture of the contest, and that's unacceptable for the league. It doesn't matter "oh well you can see why he made the call." IT'S THE WRONG CALL AND IT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN MADE. FULL STOP.
The officials cannot keep up with the speed of the players any longer. Combine that with a rule book thicker than a King James Bible, and you can see why the game is becoming absolutely unwatchable.
You get no argument from me that the flag could have gone against NE or against Denver, or stayed in the refs pocket.It also looks as if he pushes Chung right below his left armpit- this is the movement of his shoulder and arm, right before the further turn of the shoulder with Chung's hand. Chung's left leg goes up as his body is shoved. At least that's what I see. This call could also have been called OPI.
I think it's imperative that the league begin to de-emphasize the penalties in the secondary. I'd wager these are the calls most often made in error because they're the toughest to judge in real time.The officials cannot keep up with the speed of the players any longer. Combine that with a rule book thicker than a King James Bible, and you can see why the game is becoming absolutely unwatchable.