#DFG: Canceling the Noise

DennyDoyle'sBoil · Dec 31, 2015

Myt1 said:
I just . . . This is pretty much an impossible mistake to make for an experienced appellate lawyer. I'm trying to come up with an analogy. It's like showing up to an away game with only your home colors.

I've done stuff like it. I don't even get involved in this part of it. Once it is e-filed, other folks handle this stuff. I would be pretty pissed that they screwed it up, but getting notes from the clerk for forgetting the corporate disclosure, wrong color cover, not including something in the appendix, whatever, happens all the time. I think I forgot to e-sign (type my name in the sig line) once and nobody in the filing or proofreading chain noticed. Yes, these are silly mistakes, but you edit the crap out of them, get them just perfect, and then relax a little and little things slip through.

It has no effect. The judges won't even know or if they do somehow know they certainly won't care.

BroodsSexton · Dec 31, 2015

And yet again our system of civil justice demonstrates mindless adherence to "bright line rules" that pretty much have no practical significance or purpose in an age of modern practice. To what end? Really?

This is so far from "showing up to a game in the wrong colors." It's the equivalent of, I don't know, maybe .2 PSI?

bradmahn · Dec 31, 2015

BroodsSexton said:
And yet again our system of civil justice demonstrates mindless adherence to "bright line rules" that pretty much have no practical significance or purpose in an age of modern practice. To what end? Really?

This is so far from "showing up to a game in the wrong colors." It's the equivalent of, I don't know, maybe .2 PSI?

Eh, there are a lot of judges in the appellate system that still use paper copies on the bench. Variegated covers allow for a quicker reference during oral argument and are hardly antiquated as of yet. You'd be surprised to know how many judges eschew even the use of a computer, let alone electronic filings.

BroodsSexton · Dec 31, 2015

I do understand that.

bankshot1 · Dec 31, 2015

I can understand the need for proper margins, font size, spacing between words, but getting the right shade of white on the cover sheet escapes me. Perhaps we are over-regulated.

WayBackVazquez · Dec 31, 2015

It's not about the right shade of white. it's the difference between yellow and grey.

BroodsSexton · Dec 31, 2015

If only we had a system of symbolic notation to allow us to decode meaning, rather than relying on the color of the paper.

Mooch · Dec 31, 2015

In this case, I wish it was like forgetting to sign your scorecard in golf.

WayBackVazquez · Dec 31, 2015

BroodsSexton said:
If only we had a system of symbolic notation to allow us to decode meaning, rather than relying on the color of the paper.

I'm not sure why it bothers you so much that judges like to have easily identifiable colors on the covers of the hundreds of briefs in the cases pending before them at any one time.

Yes, they can probably figure it out. They can also read them on their iPads. The Supreme Court doesn't need to have its briefs printed in column format. Then again, the filing party could just follow the rules.

BroodsSexton · Dec 31, 2015

WayBackVazquez said:
I'm not sure why it bothers you so much that judges like to have easily identifiable colors on the covers of the hundreds of briefs in the cases pending before them at any one time.

Yes, they can probably figure it out. They can also read them on their iPads. The Supreme Court doesn't need to have its briefs printed in column format. Then again, the filing party could just follow the rules.

Oh, it bothers me TREMENDOUSLY. I want my judges locked in on the cases. Focusing on the details. Analyzing the briefs with a degree of intensity that allows them to discern which brief is for which party. It's the kind of lazy, shortcut-seeking judging applying heuristics like "paper color" in assessing the briefs, and "ethnicity" in judging defendants that leads to grand juries failing to indict the cops who killed Tamir.

WayBackVazquez · Dec 31, 2015

Yes, colored covers on federal appellate briefs are the root cause of state grand juries' perceived incompetence, or state prosecutorial misconduct.

I can see whinging about rules or procedure by pro se litigants, which is why courts construe such filings liberally. But a lawyer complaining about the rules is like a funeral director complaining that people keep dying.

BroodsSexton · Dec 31, 2015

WayBackVazquez said:
Yes, colored covers on federal appellate briefs are the root cause of state grand juries' perceived incompetence, or state prosecutorial misconduct.

I can see whinging about rules or procedure by pro se litigants, which is why courts construe such filings liberally. But a lawyer complaining about the rules is like a funeral director complaining that people keep dying.

I, for one, fully support winging pro se litigants.

GeorgeCostanza · Dec 31, 2015

I did my divorce pro se. I do not recommend. Pretty sure my asshole will never recover.

In Vino Vinatieri · Dec 31, 2015

BroodsSexton said:
Oh, it bothers me TREMENDOUSLY. I want my judges locked in on the cases. Focusing on the details.

You mean like having a set of standard rules for the colors and sizes of paper and the fonts and layout of the writing on them? And having all of that dealt with by people who aren't actually doing any arguing on either side?

Complaining about this makes sense only if you take for granted an already accepted set of standards, such as writing in typewritten English, using readable fonts, with black on white lettering, etc.

Multiple people have said that the judges would never even find out this happened, so to spend more than a moment considering it just means we should all be putting another checkmark under the "people who only read headlines" column.

Myt1 · Jan 2, 2016

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
I've done stuff like it. I don't even get involved in this part of it. Once it is e-filed, other folks handle this stuff. I would be pretty pissed that they screwed it up, but getting notes from the clerk for forgetting the corporate disclosure, wrong color cover, not including something in the appendix, whatever, happens all the time. I think I forgot to e-sign (type my name in the sig line) once and nobody in the filing or proofreading chain noticed. Yes, these are silly mistakes, but you edit the crap out of them, get them just perfect, and then relax a little and little things slip through.

It has no effect. The judges won't even know or if they do somehow know they certainly won't care.

Oh, I completely understand. Everyone has gotten a brief kicked for some reason or another (the only associate junior to me on my first split a ToA into state and federal cases on the first appeal I worked on, and the 7th Circuit's style handbook is simply insane). But, basic cover color is funny. It's not like they're an amicus.

Myt1 · Jan 2, 2016

BroodsSexton said:
This is so far from "showing up to a game in the wrong colors." It's the equivalent of, I don't know, maybe .2 PSI?

I meant in terms of fucking it up when you shit out appellate briefs for a living. Blue, Red, Gray, is not all that difficult to remember.

DegenerateSoxFan · Jan 3, 2016

It is indeed a dumb boo-boo we can get a chuckle at, but the case will almost certainly come down to who we get on the panel.

Just curious, for the 2nd Circuit practitioners - do they allow for spiral binding on the briefs? Makes it easier to flip to where you want and have it stay there.

WayBackVazquez · Jan 3, 2016

DegenerateSoxFan said:
It is indeed a dumb boo-boo we can get a chuckle at, but the case will almost certainly come down to who we get on the panel.

Just curious, for the 2nd Circuit practitioners - do they allow for spiral binding on the briefs? Makes it easier to flip to where you want and have it stay there.

Allowed in every circuit I know of, and required in a few. Binding has to permit briefs to lie reasonable flat.

snowmanny · Jan 3, 2016

Patriots fumbles went from 13 in 2014 to 14 in 2015. It's been a long time since I took Statistics 101 so I'll have to wait for the geniuses at 538 to let me know if that's a statistically significant increase not explained by usual year-to-year variation.

djbayko · Jan 4, 2016

snowmanny said:
Patriots fumbles went from 13 in 2014 to 14 in 2015. It's been a long time since I took Statistics 101 so I'll have to wait for the geniuses at 538 to let me know if that's a statistically significant increase not explained by usual year-to-year variation.

Isn't the answer obvious? They're still deflating footballs.

johnmd20 · Jan 4, 2016

djbayko said:
Isn't the answer obvious? They're still deflating footballs.

Occams razor.

doc · Jan 4, 2016

Why would they use a razor to deflate a football?

johnmd20 · Jan 4, 2016

doc said:
Why would they use a razor to deflate a football?

It's faster than the needle. To get the balls done in 90 seconds, you just have to cut them.

troparra · Jan 4, 2016

johnmd20 said:
It's faster than the needle. To get the balls done in 90 seconds, you just have to cut them.

The razor would also explain the high variability of the Patriots' balls. After all, McNally is not a surgeon.

DJnVa · Jan 4, 2016

Putting a bow on Brady's regular season:

--36 TDs is the 3rd most he's ever thrown in season and led the NFL
--7 INTs is the 2nd fewest he's ever thrown in a season and his 1.1% INT rate led the NFL
--102.2 passer rating is the 4th highest he's ever had
--4770 yards is the 4th most in a single season
--12 wins marks the 10th time in his career he's won 12 or more and marks the 6th consecutive season he reached 12 wins. He could go winless the next 7 seasons and still be above .500 as a QB

For his career he's now:

--4th all time in TD passes with 428, tied with Brees, and 80 behind Favre and 111 behind Manning
--he's 5th all time in completions and will likely pass Marino for 4th in week 1 next season
--he's 5th all time in passing yards and will likely pass Marino next season
--he's 6th all time in passer rating at 96.4. Manning is at 96.5.

GeorgeCostanza · Jan 4, 2016

2nd for regular season wins, trailing Manning and Favre by 14.

OCST · Jan 4, 2016

WayBackVazquez said:
Not for Court of Appeals briefs, no.

I did two appeals at the Second Circuit and had an NYC appellate printer do both.

We had the right color.

No harm done, but if I'm the client, I'm thinking "what else did these bozos miss by not reading the rules?"

The requirement for brief color is not hard either to find or understand.

WayBackVazquez · Jan 4, 2016

OilCanShotTupac said:
I did two appeals at the Second Circuit and had an NYC appellate printer do both.

I don't doubt it, but the question was about what "these guys" do. I don't think repeat players like Bancroft and Akin are outsourcing COA brief printing, which is not particularly tricky. We certainly aren't.

Shelterdog · Jan 4, 2016

OilCanShotTupac said:
I did two appeals at the Second Circuit and had an NYC appellate printer do both.

We had the right color.

No harm done, but if I'm the client, I'm thinking "what else did these bozos miss by not reading the rules?"

The requirement for brief color is not hard either to find or understand.

Depending on the fee arrangement it's probably cheaper to have a printer do it than to pay for a big firm associate try to figure out the shit for the first or second time.

shoosh77 · Jan 5, 2016

snowmanny said:
Patriots fumbles went from 13 in 2014 to 14 in 2015. It's been a long time since I took Statistics 101 so I'll have to wait for the geniuses at 538 to let me know if that's a statistically significant increase not explained by usual year-to-year variation.

Barnwell today:

Washington would obviously love to make it to an unexpected Super Bowl, but they wouldn't be happy to see the Patriots on the other side of the field when they get there. You may remember from this offseason that the Patriots don't often fumble the football; in fact, they've posted the league's second-lowest fumble rate (on a per-possession basis) and the league's lowest interception rate. In all, they've turned over the ball on a league-low 6.0 percent of drives. Turns out their success in avoiding giveaways wasn't about deflating footballs after all.

djbayko · Jan 8, 2016

This clip from PTI is making the rounds, saying Steve Young admitted to manipulating footballs. I don't see it though. Yes, in cold weather, holding balls will warm them. Are we saying people can't hold the balls anymore?

Norm loves Vera · Jan 8, 2016

ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk 6m6 minutes ago

NFL won't say whether PSI will be tested in Minnesota on Sunday http://wp.me/p14QSB-9Xwi

from the article:
Throughout the 2015 regular season, the NFL did indeed randomly test PSI levels. October comments from Commissioner Roger Goodell suggested that the program was less about science and more about enforcing the rules."

How can you enforce the rules when you ignore the science? I know most corporate laws do not apply to the NFL, but the Laws of science sure do.

tims4wins · Jan 8, 2016

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/how-low-will-psi-drop-in-frigid-vikings-seahawks-playoff-game--024852477.html

"The only way to assure a game under such conditions is pressurize them to between 16.7 and 17.8 psig pregame," Naughton wrote.

Leather · Jan 8, 2016

Cannot believe they lost a 1st round pick over that complete horseshit.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Jan 8, 2016

Pfft. We don't need no stinkin' science. PUNISHMENT MUST BE DELIVERED.

I'd love to know how Kraft feels about this now. They got fucked over, plain and simple, and he went along with it because he didn't want to upset those other owners eager to fuck him over. It's mindroasting.

Leather · Jan 8, 2016

And of COURSE the league won't measure PSI.

I'm just hoping someone on the sideline has the courage to do so and report on it, although I'm not holding my breath that anyone from the networks will.

Kraft should have demanded that studies be done before he "accepted" any loss of a pick, even if such a stance was for show. This is absurd. And anyone who points to the fact that "science" of the Wells report says that the Pats balls still fell about 0.5 lb under, which means someone deliberately fucked with them, is just a fucking moron. Ya. Dorito Dick went through all that trouble to precisely deflate 0.25 seconds worth of air.

johnmd20 · Jan 8, 2016

drleather2001 said:
And of COURSE the league won't measure PSI.

I'm just hoping someone on the sideline has the courage to do so and report on it, although I'm not holding my breath that anyone from the networks will.

You are smart not to hold your breath, becuase you would be dead. There is no chance the networks mention it.

Number45forever · Jan 8, 2016

I'd donate like $50 to have some science youtube channel bring a football into the stands in Minnesota on Sunday and post a video of someone checking the pressure ever 20 minutes or so. Fuck the NFL.

Leather · Jan 8, 2016

I don't have a gauge, otherwise I would do it in my backyard on Sunday.

allstonite · Jan 8, 2016

I'm not sure it'll come up much in any of the playoff games while Roger is in hiding. Wetzel and Florio have been bringing it up every now and then during the season. I hope one of them or some other prominent journalist (Rachel Nichols please?) asks about the results for the year at Roger's big Super Bowl press conference. He'll dodge it but at least it'll have more national attention.

Leather · Jan 8, 2016

Also, Wetzel's copout is bullshit:

While whatever the air pressure is Sunday has nothing to do with whether the Patriots did or did not tamper with the footballs last year...

It's the entire premise of your article.

Leather · Jan 8, 2016

Whoever wins on Sunday is a cheater.

themuddychicken · Jan 8, 2016

drleather2001 said:
And anyone who points to the fact that "science" of the Wells report says that the Pats balls still fell about 0.5 lb under, which means someone deliberately fucked with them, is just a fucking moron. Ya. Dorito Dick went through all that trouble to precisely deflate 0.25 seconds worth of air.

The way people used "logic" to make so many assumptions throughout ("why would McNally have done X if there wasn't a deflation scheme") and then absolutely no one applied logic to the final conclusion is just absurd. To say that there was a deflation scheme is to say that Brady, McNally, and Jastremski went through all of that trouble to deflate balls .5 PSI or less, an imperceptible amount. It makes absolutely no sense.

Of course that's not the reason why someone who thinks NE did anything wrong is a moron. The fact Exponent inexplicably used Indy's balls as a control and, in doing so, altered a fucking Law of science by applying an unnecessary constant, THAT is the reason why those people are morons.

Leather · Jan 8, 2016

It was an exercise in pseudo science. Start with a conclusion and then frame available facts to support it.

People fall for it all the time.

BaseballJones · Jan 8, 2016

From: http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/seahawks-brace-for-cold-hard-truths-about-football-in-freezing-minnesota/?utm_content=bufferb19f7&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=owned_buffer

Amazing: The footballs' psi deflates naturally in cold weather!! (actually I think their math is a little off...according to this (http://physics.bu.edu/~schmaltz/deflate.html), the psi should drop (assuming starting at 70 degrees in the locker room) to about 9.83, if it began at 13.5, but yay for understanding that air pressure drops in cold weather!)

edmunddantes · Jan 8, 2016

Well there is also the tightening effect. You can't do the calculation on temperature change alone as the size of the vessel is actually changing as the ball will shrink and resist expansion in the cold weather. I couldn't tell you the effect it would actually have (maybe 0.1 or so in PSI), but there is that issue.

It also helps to explain in some truly could games why no one complained about flat balls as the ball itself may have felt stiff from the reduction in elasticity of the leather in the cold.

edmunddantes · Jan 8, 2016

Now that the season is over, even if we can't get the readings, can we at least get a list of the random games that were measured this year?

soxhop411 · Jan 8, 2016

edmunddantes said:
Now that the season is over, even if we can't get the readings, can we at least get a list of the random games that were measured this year?

doubt it... NFL will only release something if its good for the NFL

djbayko · Jan 8, 2016

edmunddantes said:
Well there is also the tightening effect. You can't do the calculation on temperature change alone as the size of the vessel is actually changing as the ball will shrink and resist expansion in the cold weather. I couldn't tell you the effect it would actually have (maybe 0.1 or so in PSI), but there is that issue.

It also helps to explain in some truly could games why no one complained about flat balls as the ball itself may have felt stiff from the reduction in elasticity of the leather in the cold.

This was discussed way back at the beginning of DFG when we were getting all sciency up in here. Volume delta of 1/20th of an inch is pretty insignificant compared to the other factors. Ball PSI can be very closely estimated assuming a fixed volume.

PedroKsBambino · Jan 8, 2016

Media pressure is only way NFL will even consider it, and I suspect they won't share unless it is helpful. Which is to say, the smart (and I think fair and likely accurate) approach for Pats fans is to claim victory unless and until the NFL releases measurement data from 2015 that contradicts the accepted science here, which vindicates the Pats.

#DFG: Canceling the Noise

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