#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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The Big Red Kahuna

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This felt like taking a 20-0 lead into the half, only to see the other team get a kickoff return for TD to open the 2H, followed by a pick-6 and then a fumble recovered in the endzone on the ensuing play from scrimmage.
 

tims4wins

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That seems strange. Isn't is obvious that Goodell's motivations are to force the court to rule on his absolute power to implement any punishment he wants through his role as arbitrator regardless of the specific rules and punishments outlined in the CBA?
Absolutely, yes. That was the end game once the NFL realized it knew nothing about the ideal gas law
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Well, sounds like it was pretty rough. Hard to tell from tweets without a transcript, but it certainly doesn't sound like Kessler had a dominating day.
 

The Big Red Kahuna

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Isn't this where one of our resident lawyers says you can't read into the questions too much, even if Parker/Chin seemed more "pro-NFL" leaning today? Right?

Right!?
 

Hoya81

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Well, sounds like it was pretty rough. Hard to tell from tweets without a transcript, but it certainly doesn't sound like Kessler had a dominating day.
Not necessarily a bad sign. The solicitor general got batted around by the justices during the first ACA case before the SC.
 

ifmanis5

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Surprised they got hung up on the phone (pun intended). Even Wells admitted the phone was no big deal and called Brady totally cooperative throughout.
 

Leather

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Jul 18, 2005
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Isn't this where one of our resident lawyers says you can't read into the questions too much, even if Parker/Chin seemed more "pro-NFL" leaning today? Right?

Right!?
And that would be correct.

Sometimes judges say what they think. Sometimes they frame questions to probe an angle that they aren't sure about. And sometimes they press to hear something they want to hear something they want to hear.
 

Bongorific

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The cell phone was and remains a total bullshit issue. This isn't a criminal matter. The NFL has no subpoena power. Hell, it's not even civil discovery. If the NFL wants to see a player's phone he should tell the league to go pound sand.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Isn't this where one of our resident lawyers says you can't read into the questions too much, even if Parker/Chin seemed more "pro-NFL" leaning today? Right?

Right!?
It gets said a lot, but it isn't my experience -- maybe in district court but not in the court of appeals. I usually know whether I'm going to win or lose. If it was bad, sometimes I convince myself that it wasn't as bad as I thought, but I'm rarely surprised. That said, I haven't practiced in the Second Circuit.
 

The Big Red Kahuna

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It gets said a lot, but it isn't my experience -- maybe in district court but not in the court of appeals. I usually know whether I'm going to win or lose. If it was bad, sometimes I convince myself that it wasn't as bad as I thought, but I'm rarely surprised. That said, I haven't practiced in the Second Circuit.
I liked drleather's commentary better, so I'm just going to pretend his was the only reply.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I liked drleather's commentary better, so I'm just going to pretend his was the only reply.
I've been the board pessimist on this pretty much from the beginning, so don't take me too seriously. I was really hoping for a Kessler victory lap today, but from one guy's twitter, it doesn't seem like that's what we got. Just have to wait and see.
 

edmunddantes

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So ugh....

but this is annoying


Basically according to Hurley Clement put out that Brady lied about conversation with Jastremski, but we know from transcript that he didn't lie.

It's really up to the judges to dig into the record that Brady didn't lie otherwise Clement is stating he did (per I'm assuming Goodell's award letter)
 

Harry Hooper

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Basically according to Hurley Clement put out that Brady lied about conversation with Jastremski, but we know from transcript that he didn't lie.

It's really up to the judges to dig into the record that Brady didn't lie otherwise Clement is stating he did (per I'm assuming Goodell's award letter)

That looks extremely unlikely, taking Chin's questions at face value.
 
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jsinger121

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I wonder if the NFLPA should have had an appellate lawyer argue for them instead of Kessler today.
 

edmunddantes

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If Brady loses this case, guaranteed work stoppage is in the future for the NFL (already highly likely for other reasons) since Goodell will have carte blanche in regards to Article 46 as currently written, and I doubt the Union will like that going forward.
 

Tim Salmon

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This is pretty damn discouraging considering that the NFL admitted they had "no such direct evidence" before Judge Berman.
Right, but remember that even circumstantial evidence can be compelling. You can convict someone of murder without direct evidence.

What's most discouraging to me is the line of questioning from Parker suggesting that "anything goes" in arbitration.
 

tims4wins

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If Brady loses this case, guaranteed work stoppage is in the future for the NFL (already highly likely for other reasons) since Goodell will have carte blanche in regards to Article 46 as currently written, and I doubt the Union will like that going forward.
No, they will just let the owners take more $$ from the pool. This is exactly what the owners want - the players now have to negotiate something they never should have had to, in exchange for $$. It is sickening, frankly. Just another reason why a lot of people are likely done with the NFL in the not so distant future.
 

jsinger121

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If Brady loses this case, guaranteed work stoppage is in the future for the NFL (already highly likely for other reasons) since Goodell will have carte blanche in regards to Article 46 as currently written, and I doubt the Union will like that going forward.
I agree though I would be in favor of a league wide player walk out in training camp if Brady comes down on the wrong end of this.
 

AB in DC

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I'm choosing to be optimistic here because Katzmann was only harsh on the NFL, while Parker/Chin were harsh on both sides. So we just need one of those two to agree to end this thing.
 

steveluck7

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How much of the hand-wringing can be chalked up to the fact that Kessler went last so his grilling is fresher in everyone's mind? Especially since the whole hearing was so quick
 

Mooch

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If the NFL wins the appeal and Brady gets suspended after all of this crap, I'd want Kraft to go rogue and sue the league. This is beyond ridiculous at this point.
 

Hoya81

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How much of the hand-wringing can be chalked up to the fact that Kessler went last so his grilling is fresher in everyone's mind? Especially since the whole hearing was so quick
Most of the takeaways coming from lawyers in the room and on Twitter are that the NFLPA faced tougher legal questions overall and are now leaning toward reversal.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Most of the takeaways coming from lawyers in the room and on Twitter are that the NFLPA faced tougher legal questions overall and are now leaning toward reversal.
If that's where we're headed, it's pretty sad that the league faced tougher factual questions that ultimately don't matter in the face of legal matters. And yes, I know facts have never mattered in this case, but it would suck to see it played out at this level.
 

troparra

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If that's where we're headed, it's pretty sad that the league faced tougher factual questions that ultimately don't matter in the face of legal matters. And yes, I know facts have never mattered in this case, but it would suck to see it played out at this level.
And it's not just factual matters. There was a prejudiced hearing and disciplinary process, which seems like it may not matter either.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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And it's not just factual matters. There was a prejudiced hearing and disciplinary process, which seems like it may not matter either.
Goodell never having to answer for his outright lie about Brady's testimony and the mind-boggling jump from generally aware to active participant are particularly irksome.
 
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Why is everyone talking as if the hearing was Edge: NFL? I mean, this was a pretty steady series of slams on some of what we'd call the core issues here...

Judge Katzmann opens hearing by asking how NFL can justify penalty based on "new factual findings" after Wells report.

Judge Chin: Shouldn't Brady have been given notice re destroying cell phone?
NFL lawyer Clement: destruction of cell phone amounted to "out and out obstruction."

Judge Parker says some might call suspension "draconian." "Why is the inflation level so critical in these games?"
Parker questions whether you get "any advantage on the field" from under inflated footballs.

Judge Chin notes that first offenses for uniform and equipment violations result in fines. Clement: suspension was for "conduct detrimental"

Judge Katzmann: "As you know, stickum is prohibited..." Notes "gross disparity" between stickum penalty and Brady's punishment.

Katzmann: Could Goodell have suspended Brady for a year? Clement: Yes, though that would have been "excessive."

Katzmann says he can't find evidence in record that Brady's alleged gifts to ball boys were "inducements" to engage in scheme.

(Stendahl): That's it for Clement. Some TOUGH questions from the panel. Jeff Kessler up next for Brady.
Meanwhile, we end up on Kessler's side with things like:

"Katzmann: Your point is there should be some notice of punishments. Kessler: Yes"

There were some questions that suggested an incorrect understanding of the facts. We don't know Kessler's responses - he may have corrected them. I can't wait for the full transcripts, of course, but there were no Berman-esque slams on either side. But if we're scoring this based solely off the tweets, they had 1999 Pedro on the mound against our 2013 Lackey (a solid professional but nothing special), and in the 7th inning, we're into the bullpens somehow leading 3-1, because their lineup (the facts) utterly stinks.
 

Leather

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Max Stendahl ‏@MaxLaw360 8s9 seconds ago
Woah. Judge Chin says evidence of ball tampering was "compelling, if not overwhelming."

I am amazed that two learned men appear to have no understanding of science and the Ideal Gas Law.
I respect judges, but they are human. I find it completely plausible that one of them, after a full year of constant media bombardment about the Patriots and deflategate (in NYC, no less), has kind of just made up his mind (as 95% of the US population has). You live in an echo chamber with that stuff, and since the matter won't be decided on whether or not the balls were actually deflated, Chin has no motivation to dig into it. I mean, judges read the papers and yak around the water cooler, too, but that's not the stuff that this case is being decided on.
 
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Papelbon's Poutine

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Apologies, because I know this has likely been answered already, but when do we expect to see a decision on this? Is there a scheduled date or do the judges have as much time as they want?