Beyond 2016 - future needs

Plympton91

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It is also possible that the reason Sandoval lost the ability to hit lefties was the deterioration in his shoulder, which is getting fixed.

I also second the idea of Rutledge as a somewhat viable option, especially if Bradley, Bogaerts, and Lein given them all star production up the middle.

And you can do worse than Witte as a break glass in emergency option.

And of course Moncada could win ROY.

Don't see spending to upgrade any positions, unless it's because you used Shaw as a trade chip for a top notch setup guy with a couple years of control left. Get me two relief pitchers, keep everyone healthy, and this team is the favorite next year.
 

nvalvo

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It is also possible that the reason Sandoval lost the ability to hit lefties was the deterioration in his shoulder, which is getting fixed.
I was just coming to post this. We wouldn't be relying on a magical improvement — it would be a medical improvement. Your left shoulder seems like it might be pretty important to hitting right handed.

Remember, although the press loves to harp on it, his weight doesn't actually track with his offensive performance (although defense may be another story).
 

plucy

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a rock and a hard place
Sandoval is a career wRC+ 128 hitter from the left side. Even in his craptastic 2015, he put up a 99. With a healthy shoulder, a 115-120 as the LH side of a DH platoon seems possible.
With Moncada, Swihart and Travis at PAW to start the season, and the lineup with Shaw (ignore the current mishegas) -Hanley in the corners and Leon/Vaz to start the season, the bench needs a RHH corner infielder; could be Rutlege, Prado was a great suggestion but may not find the playing time he wants.
IIRC Benintendi does not have a big platoon split so Young would get AB's as RH DH.
I'm not sure what will become of Hanley. He's putting the ball on the ground more to his pull side, his LD and FB%s are much better to RF, his second half resurgence has been fueled by a HR spike with a drop in BBs. He showing more swing and miss. 33 on opening day. Sell high (cover half his remaining salary)? Cross your fingers and hope Travis can replace him?
 

nothumb

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I think you're putting too much emphasis on Shaw and Sandoval as the only options necessitating a need for outside help.

1. Brock Holt has a slight reverse split for his career, though this year he has a pretty massive normal split in a very small sample. If his numbers revert to normal he's a .700 OPS 3B option that will already be on the roster.

2. In the Hanley to DH, Sandoval to 3B, Shaw to 1B alignment there is still room for an extra bench guy along with Holt to take time in the mix. Josh Rutledge for example will likely be back and over rather small samples the past three seasons he's posted LHP lines of:
2014 - 90 PA, .840 OPS
2015 - 26 PA, .748 OPS
2016 - 19 PA, .859 OPS

Very small samples to be sure and he's lost most of 2016 due to injury, but his across all levels LHP splits for the previous two seasons?
2015 - 139 PA, .874 OPS
2014 - 110 PA, .929 OPS

3. Beyond Rutledge the club also has Jantzen Witte, a 26 year old (will be 27 next year) 24th rounder from the 2013 class who, in part due to his age, has been pushed through the minors quickly but has hit well along the way, especially against LHP. His LHP splits:
2016 (AAA) - 83 PAs, .847 OPS
2015 (AA) - 72 PAs, .970 OPS
2014 (A) - 64 PAs, 1.121 OPS
2014 (LoA) - 62 PAs, 1.049 OPS

I'm not arguing that Witte is a real prospect, but he's going to be entering his physical prime, has hit throughout the minors while being on a fast track, and has especially hit LH pitching. I mean, using him as one of the options for a small side platoon role is exactly what you hope to get when drafting someone like Witte and all signs point to him being on track for deployment in such a role come the start of next season.

4. While Sam Travis was derailed with the ACL he was on an extreme fast track last season and is a highly advanced RH bat. He might not be ready for opening day but I would expect him to start in AAA and if he rebounds well he could be pushing for time at 1B very soon.

5. Blake Swihart is still out there as a recent top 25 prospect in all of baseball and prior to his trial in LF the consensus move off of C for him was to 3B where his strong arm could still give value. The club could re-visit that and enter next season with a Leon/Vazquez catching duo and Swihart working at 3B, able to move back behind the dish in a pinch, giving some PH/PR flexibility in close and late situations. This is more of a stretch than the other two, as you wouldn't want to move Swihart only to then move him again to make room for Moncada shortly thereafter, but if the vision for Swihart is as a utility guy he could find some real value by being able to run up both foul lines defensively (C, 3B, LF, 1B, RF) and likely has the athletic tools to do exactly that with a bat that makes him very intriguing in such a role (switch hitter who is naturally RH and has his best splits against LHP).

The in-house options are actually pretty expansive without even getting into when Moncada would be ready, though I doubt it'll be too far into 2017 before Yoan is making it hard to keep him in the minors any longer. He's as rare a talent as we've seen come through the farm and we've all watched Bogaerts, Betts, and now Benintendi burst onto the scene.
I think any of these options other than Rutledge is a real stretch and I don't put much stock in Rutledge. Career wRC+ of 80 against LHP and a butcher in the field. I agree it's very possible that we go into next season with Rutledge (or someone like him) and Holt as the primary bench guys, I just don't think it's good enough. Hell, even if you have to keep Panda for a little while, bringing in somebody who is somewhere between Rutledge quality and Martin Prado on short money would probably make sense.

Moving Swihart to 3B is also a little too fancy for me. He has plenty of value as a C/OF who can switch hit, and 3B is hopefully on the verge of being blocked for the next decade or so in Boston anyway. I was fine with the OF move (and still am, even with the injury) but at this point I would let him focus on his catching in AAA. Swihart is more likely to be needed in Boston as a backup C or even a 5th OF / 3rd C.

Sandoval is a career wRC+ 128 hitter from the left side. Even in his craptastic 2015, he put up a 99. With a healthy shoulder, a 115-120 as the LH side of a DH platoon seems possible.
Sure, that seems possible. And also terrible. Replace Papi's ~160 wRC+ vs. RHP with (hopefully) 115. The only way Panda has any value to the Sox is if he can play defense.
 

PapaSox

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It's truly insane all right. You are talking about Corey Kluber, 2014 Cy Young winner. Corey Kluber who is signed to a very team friendly deal for the next five years. That Corey Kluber?

Why are the Indians saying yes to this deal, exactly?

File this under wild thoughts that are better left unspoken.
LOL - Thank you for setting my poor mind back from its fall off the ledge.
 

Drek717

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I think any of these options other than Rutledge is a real stretch and I don't put much stock in Rutledge. Career wRC+ of 80 against LHP and a butcher in the field. I agree it's very possible that we go into next season with Rutledge (or someone like him) and Holt as the primary bench guys, I just don't think it's good enough. Hell, even if you have to keep Panda for a little while, bringing in somebody who is somewhere between Rutledge quality and Martin Prado on short money would probably make sense.

Moving Swihart to 3B is also a little too fancy for me. He has plenty of value as a C/OF who can switch hit, and 3B is hopefully on the verge of being blocked for the next decade or so in Boston anyway. I was fine with the OF move (and still am, even with the injury) but at this point I would let him focus on his catching in AAA. Swihart is more likely to be needed in Boston as a backup C or even a 5th OF / 3rd C.
First, the FO went into 2016 with Travis Shaw at 3B and Rutledge as the AAA call-up depth behind him with no real platoon intentions, so while you might not be a fan the FO opted for that when Moncada was much more of an unknown and Rutledge didn't have the solid stretch of play he put up this season.

Second, the wRC+ you're citing for Rutledge is largely the product of 1. his career starting in Coors (with a meaningful negative correction for park factor in 2012 and 2013) and 2. his 2013 season having a wRC+ against LHP of 25. Every other ML sample is above 90.

Beyond Rutledge, why exactly is Brock Holt, a player with meaningful reverse splits in 2014 and 2015 and only 36 PA against LHP in 2016, not a reasonable option? He's going to likely be back to his super sub role and plays a solid defensive 3B. His career .718 OPS against LHP would put him between the general production of Martin Prado and Brett Lawrie for the 2015 season by wRC+ and wOBA, almost exactly tied with Travis Shaw's wOBA and wRC+ non-split production for 2016 as well.

And why is Witte not worth even considering? The entire hope when drafting him was that he'd advance quickly and hit LHP well enough to be a platoon candidate. Turns out he's done exactly that. All I can assume is you're applying the same kind of pedigree standard that had people opposed to even trying Travis Shaw out last year. Turns out all recent data indicates guys who are passable Pawtucket hitters can actually produce at the ML level (same for Bryce Brentz, who didn't embarrass himself by any means when called up and in fact hit pretty close to his AAA numbers). Witte will have had almost a full season of AAA ABs next year.

Sam Travis isn't an option here either? I mean, the guy might have been the best all around hitter in the farm system prior to tearing his ACL. He isn't an NFL running back or something so while the ACL is a set back he was on track to be the starting 1B to open 2017, now he doesn't belong in the conversation as RHB depth for a platoon setup?

Lastly, you think relegating a top 20 prospect form just a few months ago to a backup C or 5th OF/3rd C role is good use of talent? Swihart got pressed into early service and had his development rushed because of the 2015 injuries, leading to him effectively skipping AAA. His last meaningful mL sample was AA where he posted an .840 OPS as a catcher when he was 22 years old. Swihart also is a natural right hander who has a substantial LHP bump in his meaningful mL sample sizes, likely a result of him only adding switch hitting near the end of high school. Meanwhile the scouting rap on Moncada has always been that his LHB approach is better than his RHB approach. Almost all other catchers are RHBs or switch hitters, so there is limited value in a catching platoon. So if the Sox are thinking about Swihart in a utility role why wouldn't they have him add both corner IF positions to the repertoire, letting him be the long term backup to Moncada, Benintendi's platoonmate, etc.?

This for a club that is already heavy with guys who crush LHP, and with the only substantial offensive loss being a LHB who, while elite across the board, has a substantial split. Who platoons with Shaw and/or Sandoval at the corners against isn't the problem with Papi's retirement, it's how you replace 350+ PAs of 1.000 OPS hitting against RHP. They probably don't, so do you throw a bunch of money after it hoping to band-aid what might be a non-problem or do you let the organizational depth do it's job and fill gaps like a ~100-150 PA platoon roles?

The answer should be pretty obvious because they aren't getting someone like Martin Prado for less than they gave Chris Young, and unlike with Chris Young they aren't unsure if they can even field worthwhile starters at the corners.
 

nothumb

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First, the FO went into 2016 with Travis Shaw at 3B and Rutledge as the AAA call-up depth behind him with no real platoon intentions, so while you might not be a fan the FO opted for that when Moncada was much more of an unknown and Rutledge didn't have the solid stretch of play he put up this season.

Second, the wRC+ you're citing for Rutledge is largely the product of 1. his career starting in Coors (with a meaningful negative correction for park factor in 2012 and 2013) and 2. his 2013 season having a wRC+ against LHP of 25. Every other ML sample is above 90.

Beyond Rutledge, why exactly is Brock Holt, a player with meaningful reverse splits in 2014 and 2015 and only 36 PA against LHP in 2016, not a reasonable option? He's going to likely be back to his super sub role and plays a solid defensive 3B. His career .718 OPS against LHP would put him between the general production of Martin Prado and Brett Lawrie for the 2015 season by wRC+ and wOBA, almost exactly tied with Travis Shaw's wOBA and wRC+ non-split production for 2016 as well.

And why is Witte not worth even considering? The entire hope when drafting him was that he'd advance quickly and hit LHP well enough to be a platoon candidate. Turns out he's done exactly that. All I can assume is you're applying the same kind of pedigree standard that had people opposed to even trying Travis Shaw out last year. Turns out all recent data indicates guys who are passable Pawtucket hitters can actually produce at the ML level (same for Bryce Brentz, who didn't embarrass himself by any means when called up and in fact hit pretty close to his AAA numbers). Witte will have had almost a full season of AAA ABs next year.

Sam Travis isn't an option here either? I mean, the guy might have been the best all around hitter in the farm system prior to tearing his ACL. He isn't an NFL running back or something so while the ACL is a set back he was on track to be the starting 1B to open 2017, now he doesn't belong in the conversation as RHB depth for a platoon setup?

Lastly, you think relegating a top 20 prospect form just a few months ago to a backup C or 5th OF/3rd C role is good use of talent? Swihart got pressed into early service and had his development rushed because of the 2015 injuries, leading to him effectively skipping AAA. His last meaningful mL sample was AA where he posted an .840 OPS as a catcher when he was 22 years old. Swihart also is a natural right hander who has a substantial LHP bump in his meaningful mL sample sizes, likely a result of him only adding switch hitting near the end of high school. Meanwhile the scouting rap on Moncada has always been that his LHB approach is better than his RHB approach. Almost all other catchers are RHBs or switch hitters, so there is limited value in a catching platoon. So if the Sox are thinking about Swihart in a utility role why wouldn't they have him add both corner IF positions to the repertoire, letting him be the long term backup to Moncada, Benintendi's platoonmate, etc.?

This for a club that is already heavy with guys who crush LHP, and with the only substantial offensive loss being a LHB who, while elite across the board, has a substantial split. Who platoons with Shaw and/or Sandoval at the corners against isn't the problem with Papi's retirement, it's how you replace 350+ PAs of 1.000 OPS hitting against RHP. They probably don't, so do you throw a bunch of money after it hoping to band-aid what might be a non-problem or do you let the organizational depth do it's job and fill gaps like a ~100-150 PA platoon roles?

The answer should be pretty obvious because they aren't getting someone like Martin Prado for less than they gave Chris Young, and unlike with Chris Young they aren't unsure if they can even field worthwhile starters at the corners.
I was fine with how they went into 2016, please don't assume. I thought it was too soon to sell low or cut bait on Panda, we still had Ortiz' bat in the lineup, and Shaw had looked promising in a limited sample in 2015. A year later, we have a year less on Panda's deal, Shaw has shown that he probably has more of a traditional split than he did when he first came up, and we have one less David Ortiz than before. Times have changed.

And look, I think it's very possible that we go into the year with some combination of the options you described and that it's not the end of the world. But I also think that with Ortiz retiring the overall composition of the roster could shift towards one without a full-time DH, and that there are potentially options for making that move in 2017 without blocking Moncada while still having a bit higher floor in terms of performance. If those options are explored and don't work out, fine, I will still have high hopes.

You say that we aren't getting Prado for less than Chris Young money. I agree. In fact, he might cost more than CY did. We might not get him at all if he's looking for more guaranteed playing time, and that's fine, but if I could sign him tomorrow for 2 years 10M to play 3B against LHP and back up OF/2B, I happily would. With all the money coming off the books, that's exactly the kind of stop-gap signing that a big market team can afford. He can still be dealt if Moncada is ready (or he can turn into a platoon partner to ease Moncada in if, say, Travis is up and Shaw gets dealt).

The rest of the disagreements are mostly academic or semantic. Sure, invite Witte to ST and see if he gets hot, why not - I'm just not counting on it. I didn't include Travis because I was not under the impression he could play 3B, and him coming up to play 1B doesn't change the situation at 3rd. I don't understand why we would bother to parse Rutledge's measly 300ish PA major league sample against LHP year-by-year, and anyway, even if it's a touch more optimistic as you suggest, that's probably not enough to cover for the fact that he seems to be a horrible fielder at 3B. And did you really compare Holt's splits against LHP to Prado's and Lawrie's full-year stats in a discussion about who will face LHP at 3B? I guess you are trying to say that a .700 OPS and decent defense at 3B is acceptable since some other teams are getting the same? Again, I think they can do better without mortgaging the future, and while we might be able to carry that kind of production this year, next year's offense is still a work in progress.

I was unclear re: Swihart. No, I don't think his ceiling is backup C. What I'm saying is, I think he has a good chance of being needed at C / OF in Boston soon, and potentially for a long time if he develops as hoped, and I would like him to be ready for that. I don't think he will be needed at 3B and I don't think it's a good use of his remaining developmental opportunities to break him into another position. It's not that he couldn't do it, it's that he probably couldn't do it fast enough to be the stopgap you need, and trying to teach him would take away from his learning opportunities at C.

Finally, I completely agree that replacing Papi's production against RHP is a bigger issue (just in terms of # of PAs) than who plays third against lefties and how much marginal improvement we could get there without going nuts or breaking the bank. Which is why I was specifically interested in a scenario where you add a guy like Prado AND a Brandon Moss type guy. You can probably add both for less than the AAV of a guy like EE, and certainly for shorter money, still leaving resources available to extend the kids and make some improvements in the bullpen. And even setting that aside, runs created by our 3B against LHSP count just as much as runs created by our DH against RHP. It is a smaller number of PAs, but I was thinking about it in terms of a holistic roster management strategy.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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As many of us anticipated, it sounds Sandoval will be with the Red Sox in 2017 and will be given every opportunity to start.

From the mouth of John Henry: "Pablo is a supremely talented veteran and a proven winner. He knows exactly what he needs at this point in his career. With Papi leaving we absolutely need Pablo to return to the form we’ve seen in the past. This year and last were frustrating for him and frustrating for us. We need him next year."
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/2016/08/q_a_john_henry_opens_up_on_state_of_red_sox
 

Al Zarilla

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As many of us anticipated, it sounds Sandoval will be with the Red Sox in 2017 and will be given every opportunity to start.

From the mouth of John Henry: "Pablo is a supremely talented veteran and a proven winner. He knows exactly what he needs at this point in his career. With Papi leaving we absolutely need Pablo to return to the form we’ve seen in the past. This year and last were frustrating for him and frustrating for us. We need him next year."
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/2016/08/q_a_john_henry_opens_up_on_state_of_red_sox
Supremely talented? Did we get Buster Posey or Brandon Crawford?
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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As many of us anticipated, it sounds Sandoval will be with the Red Sox in 2017 and will be given every opportunity to start.

From the mouth of John Henry: "Pablo is a supremely talented veteran and a proven winner. He knows exactly what he needs at this point in his career. With Papi leaving we absolutely need Pablo to return to the form we’ve seen in the past. This year and last were frustrating for him and frustrating for us. We need him next year."
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/2016/08/q_a_john_henry_opens_up_on_state_of_red_sox
What's he supposed to say? "Signing him was a horrible mistake and he'll most likely be released or traded for pennies on the dollar by June"?
 

PapaSox

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Watching "Benintendi" play and seeing Young back I think LF is covered. I don't see a need there. Rotating the DH will be good as it will give players AB to stay "tuned up". The rotation is starting to come together and Wright's return will make it solid. The pen is the issue. Uehara's return will help. This is the one area I see a need for some improvement. Smith may be able to replace Uehara but I still think there is room for improvement. It may come from within as many have mentioned. Having a healthy group would be nice to see for a bit before making any other moves.
 

Maximus

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In addition to strengthening the BP, I hope DD makes a run at a trade for Chris Sale to strengthen the top end of the rotation.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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In addition to strengthening the BP, I hope DD makes a run at a trade for Chris Sale to strengthen the top end of the rotation.
His velocity is almost 2 mph lower than it was last year and is as low as it's been as a season average since 2012. It's been consistently in the 93.75 range all year. His FIP (3.43) and xFIP (3.76) are by far the worst of his career and he's striking out just over 3 fewer hitters per 9 than he did last year. He's not the dominant surefire ace he used to be and there are plenty of indications he won't ever be again. He's still a very good pitcher, but to pry him loose with that contract, Dombrowski would have to pay like he was getting that no doubt top of the league guy.

It would be a bad use of resources at this point and I want nothing to do with it.
 

johnnywayback

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Yeah, it's time to stop thinking of the rotation as a weakness and start thinking of it as a strength. We have every reason to believe that Price will return to form and Rodriguez will be the guy we've seen him be when healthy. And we have no reason to believe that the breakouts we've seen from Porcello and Pomeranz this year aren't real. Wright's a knuckleballer, so who knows, but there's really no reason to believe he'll fall apart, either. And, of course, it's possible that Good Clay Buchholz is back, and we have an affordable option on him next year, too.

That's not just a decent rotation. It's top-10 in the league, maybe even higher. And we have it in place not just for 2017, but (sans Buchholz) for 2018 and (sans Price) beyond.
 

Broda

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You know, before 2004, I might have agreed with you, but now I get to be whatever the baseball equivalent of a privileged straight white guy is and say that I would rather lose than have Chapman on my team.

We can find someone else, and we should.
I disagree with the SJW bs.

The team's job is to win baseball games. And his talent is well worth it. And he doesn't cost the team a draft pick (something they HAVE TO keep after the international signing stuff that went down (and yes they deserved to get smacked for. They cheated, they got caught. No #freeRedSox hashtags.), and the depleting of the farm with the Kimbrel overpayment & the Pomeranz trade.

Chapman is exactly what this team needs to replace 98 year old Koji.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I disagree with the SJW bs.

The team's job is to win baseball games. And his talent is well worth it. And he doesn't cost the team a draft pick (something they HAVE TO keep after the international signing stuff that went down (and yes they deserved to get smacked for. They cheated, they got caught. No #freeRedSox hashtags.), and the depleting of the farm with the Kimbrel overpayment & the Pomeranz trade.

Chapman is exactly what this team needs to replace 98 year old Koji.
Depleting the farm? A bit hyperbolic, don't you think? Four prospects does not a farm make. Bringing up Benintendi and Moncada (though the latter should still qualify as a prospect in 2017) did more to "deplete the farm" than those trades did.

And no free agent reliever is going to cost anyone a draft pick so that argument doesn't do a whole lot to bolster the case for Chapman. I think the likely price tag for Chapman, especially considering he all but said after the trade that he wants to go back to the Yankees next year, is as big, if not a bigger deterrent than his domestic violence rap.
 

Broda

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Depleting the farm? A bit hyperbolic, don't you think? Four prospects does not a farm make. Bringing up Benintendi and Moncada (though the latter should still qualify as a prospect in 2017) did more to "deplete the farm" than those trades did.

And no free agent reliever is going to cost anyone a draft pick so that argument doesn't do a whole lot to bolster the case for Chapman. I think the likely price tag for Chapman, especially considering he all but said after the trade that he wants to go back to the Yankees next year, is as big, if not a bigger deterrent than his domestic violence rap.
Jansen would...the guy that others in this thread have said to go after.

And the system couldn't get any evidence of it.

He was reckless with a handgun, but frankly could've beaten the MLB suspension on appeal if he had gone that way.
 

chrisfont9

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The Talented Allen Ripley

holden
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Pull quote:

With Ortiz retiring, Ramirez hopes to take over as the designated hitter. He has been a DH 36 times in his career and hit .331 with a 1.014 OPS and 10 home runs in 142 at-bats.

He filled in for Ortiz 11 times this season and was 16 of 44 (.364) with 8 extra-base hits, 11 runs, and 16 RBIs. While a small sample size, those statistics suggest Ramirez would be a worthy successor to Ortiz.

What about staying at first base?

“Hell no,” Ramirez said. “I would be good as the DH. I learned a lot from Papi.”

Then he caught himself.

“I’ll do whatever they want,” he said.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Jansen would...the guy that others in this thread have said to go after.
If they can land Jansen on a 3 or 4 year deal, he's worth that pick easily. The problem becomes can they convince one of him or Kimbrel to relinquish the closer role for the sake of winning?

As for depleting the farm and overpaying, they gave up two prospects that anyone really cared about at the time, one of which (Guerra) who has all but flamed out. Asuaje was a decent but not special prospect that is panning out. Good for the Padres. Logan Allen is a lotto ticket who is still a lotto ticket. The big chip was really just Margot, but he'd be terribly blocked in Boston anyway (so would Asuaje, btw).

It's a classic relative value trade where they acquired one of the top relievers in the game, something they sorely needed over the winter.

You might have been comfortable with the domestic violence situation with Chapman, but clearly the Red Sox were not, and you can't fault them for that. So whether you like it or not, Chapman wasn't really an option. After that, there was no one on the market (free agent or trade) that was at that level. It was a fair deal both ways, giving both teams something they really needed.
 

Cesar Crespo

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And Carlos Asuaje looks like a UI. His numbers are heavily aided by the PCL environment. They basically got rid of Margot, who could be a league average CF as soon as next year given his command of the strikezone. Maybe even ROY if it's a down year. He should transition smoothly. He's also going to be 22 next year so there's the chance he could take another step forward, or possibly backwards. The lack of power last year isn't a red flag, but it's a yellow one.

Logan Allen was injured for 2 months and upon returned had 8bb/6k in 10 ip. Javier Guerra was already mentioned. I think people overrate the value Margot and Guerra had, especially the latter.
 

Broda

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Sep 12, 2016
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If they can land Jansen on a 3 or 4 year deal, he's worth that pick easily. The problem becomes can they convince one of him or Kimbrel to relinquish the closer role for the sake of winning?

As for depleting the farm and overpaying, they gave up two prospects that anyone really cared about at the time, one of which (Guerra) who has all but flamed out. Asuaje was a decent but not special prospect that is panning out. Good for the Padres. Logan Allen is a lotto ticket who is still a lotto ticket. The big chip was really just Margot, but he'd be terribly blocked in Boston anyway (so would Asuaje, btw).

It's a classic relative value trade where they acquired one of the top relievers in the game, something they sorely needed over the winter.

You might have been comfortable with the domestic violence situation with Chapman, but clearly the Red Sox were not, and you can't fault them for that. So whether you like it or not, Chapman wasn't really an option. After that, there was no one on the market (free agent or trade) that was at that level. It was a fair deal both ways, giving both teams something they really needed.
At the time of the Kimbrel trade it's fine to have an issue with (possible unknown length of suspension).

Now, he's a FA. No reason to not go hard after him. None.
 

Cesar Crespo

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At the time of the Kimbrel trade it's fine to have an issue with (possible unknown length of suspension).

Now, he's a FA. No reason to not go hard after him. None.

There is plenty of reason, you just disagree with it.
 

santadevil

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At the time of the Kimbrel trade it's fine to have an issue with (possible unknown length of suspension).

Now, he's a FA. No reason to not go hard after him. None.
Or we could wait until the post season is done and make sure that no one's arm flies off and kills a fan before they are signed.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
There is plenty of reason, you just disagree with it.
There's not a good, intelligent reason.

There's a whiny baby SJW reason.

This is baseball. You play to win the games. (in Herm Edwards voice obviously).
 

Cesar Crespo

79
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Dec 22, 2002
21,588
There's not a good, intelligent reason.

There's a whiny baby SJW reason.

This is baseball. You play to win the games. (in Herm Edwards voice obviously).
It is a business. You play the games to make money. There's reason to believe Chapman could affect the business side of things. You disagree with those reasons, it's fine. To say it isn't a good, intelligent reason is just ignorance and a whiny baby "because I say so" reason.

If they acquire another wife beater, I will question their rationale. Until then, I'll assume it was a business decision. One I agree with.
 

PapaSox

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Dec 26, 2015
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Other than DH, which can be filled be either Panda or Swihart the position roles seem pretty set. Panda, if he is actually ready to play, can fill in at 3B for Shaw which did a good job. Swihart can be another option for C or LF. Retain Buchholz will provide another option as a starter and cover aspects of the pen. A full year of Kelly in the pen may also help. Others had there moments in the pen but some were very short lived. The pen may be an area that can be upgraded. Adding someone like Hellickson could be a benefit but I'm not sure who you would move in the rotation.If Wade Davis pops lose from KC then I can see going after him. Returning Tazawa is a possibility. I'd stay away from Papelbon.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
It is a business. You play the games to make money. There's reason to believe Chapman could affect the business side of things. You disagree with those reasons, it's fine. To say it isn't a good, intelligent reason is just ignorance and a whiny baby "because I say so" reason.

If they acquire another wife beater, I will question their rationale. Until then, I'll assume it was a business decision. One I agree with.
False. Didn't hurt the Cubs or the Yankees this year.

Winning will make them more money than anything else.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
Other than DH, which can be filled be either Panda or Swihart the position roles seem pretty set. Panda, if he is actually ready to play, can fill in at 3B for Shaw which did a good job. Swihart can be another option for C or LF. Retain Buchholz will provide another option as a starter and cover aspects of the pen. A full year of Kelly in the pen may also help. Others had there moments in the pen but some were very short lived. The pen may be an area that can be upgraded. Adding someone like Hellickson could be a benefit but I'm not sure who you would move in the rotation.If Wade Davis pops lose from KC then I can see going after him. Returning Tazawa is a possibility. I'd stay away from Papelbon.
of guys would popped free from KC, I'm surprised no one signed Holland and give him a "rehab" deal with that 2nd year club option.

I would've liked to see Boston do that.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
Depleting the farm? A bit hyperbolic, don't you think? Four prospects does not a farm make. Bringing up Benintendi and Moncada (though the latter should still qualify as a prospect in 2017) did more to "deplete the farm" than those trades did.

And no free agent reliever is going to cost anyone a draft pick so that argument doesn't do a whole lot to bolster the case for Chapman. I think the likely price tag for Chapman, especially considering he all but said after the trade that he wants to go back to the Yankees next year, is as big, if not a bigger deterrent than his domestic violence rap.
3 of the 4 would probably still be top 10 prospects in the farm system. Frankly a guy like Margot was the kind of piece they could've used in the Sale discussions.

Trading premium talent for relievers is rarely a good idea.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Other than DH, which can be filled be either Panda or Swihart the position roles seem pretty set. Panda, if he is actually ready to play, can fill in at 3B for Shaw which did a good job. Swihart can be another option for C or LF. Retain Buchholz will provide another option as a starter and cover aspects of the pen. A full year of Kelly in the pen may also help. Others had there moments in the pen but some were very short lived. The pen may be an area that can be upgraded. Adding someone like Hellickson could be a benefit but I'm not sure who you would move in the rotation.If Wade Davis pops lose from KC then I can see going after him. Returning Tazawa is a possibility. I'd stay away from Papelbon.

I would bet money on Hanley Ramirez being the DH next year, and he's pretty much stated as much. I kinda forgot about Swihart, but I'd guess he'll start the year in Pawtucket. Hopefully, they really believe he can play catcher because I'm not a believer in Leon's bat. But given the average catcher hit .230/.295/.386 in the AL, Leon could regress a lot and still be above average.

The pictures of Sandoval are also encouraging, and before last year, he was actually a good player. He's also the perfect platoon partner for Moncada, giving the latters struggles batting R. And if he reverts to his old form and Moncada is actually performing, you can ship Sandoval out of town or slide him to 1b if there is a need. With Holt and Shaw as well, I'd guess they would try to acquire a starting 1b/3b for a year or two since none of the 4 are sure things next year and there are 2 positions to cover. If it was just 1 position, I think they'd roll the dice.

I'll also guess they play up the Hanley is our 1b in 2017 card this offseason as a bargaining ploy. Of course, many people thought the same thing going into the 2016 season. They are pretty set for the most part, except at the corners or DH depending on where Hanley plays.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
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Dec 22, 2002
21,588
3 of the 4 would probably still be top 10 prospects in the farm system. Frankly a guy like Margot was the kind of piece they could've used in the Sale discussions.

Trading premium talent for relievers is rarely a good idea.

Only 1 of the 4 would be in the top 10, that one being Margot.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
I would bet money on Hanley Ramirez being the DH next year, and he's pretty much stated as much. I kinda forgot about Swihart, but I'd guess he'll start the year in Pawtucket. Hopefully, they really believe he can play catcher because I'm not a believer in Leon's bat. But given the average catcher hit .230/.295/.386 in the AL, Leon could regress a lot and still be above average.

The pictures of Sandoval are also encouraging, and before last year, he was actually a good player. He's also the perfect platoon partner for Moncada, giving the latters struggles batting R. And if he reverts to his old form and Moncada is actually performing, you can ship Sandoval out of town or slide him to 1b if there is a need. With Holt and Shaw as well, I'd guess they would try to acquire a starting 1b/3b for a year or two since none of the 4 are sure things next year and there are 2 positions to cover. If it was just 1 position, I think they'd roll the dice.

I'll also guess they play up the Hanley is our 1b in 2017 card this offseason as a bargaining ploy. Of course, many people thought the same thing going into the 2016 season. They are pretty set for the most part, except at the corners or DH depending on where Hanley plays.
Hanley playing 1B is probably best for everyone.

I'd love to get a like Steve Pearce in here on a short term deal rather than have EE 5 or 6 years.

If you're a Shaw believe you don't even need him, you just need a the Chris Young of 1B. A guy who can hit lefties and maybe play once in a while against RHPs when Shaw is in a funk. It's not perfect but it's more economically efficient for now.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
If they can land Jansen on a 3 or 4 year deal, he's worth that pick easily. The problem becomes can they convince one of him or Kimbrel to relinquish the closer role for the sake of winning?

As for depleting the farm and overpaying, they gave up two prospects that anyone really cared about at the time, one of which (Guerra) who has all but flamed out. Asuaje was a decent but not special prospect that is panning out. Good for the Padres. Logan Allen is a lotto ticket who is still a lotto ticket. The big chip was really just Margot, but he'd be terribly blocked in Boston anyway (so would Asuaje, btw).

It's a classic relative value trade where they acquired one of the top relievers in the game, something they sorely needed over the winter.

You might have been comfortable with the domestic violence situation with Chapman, but clearly the Red Sox were not, and you can't fault them for that. So whether you like it or not, Chapman wasn't really an option. After that, there was no one on the market (free agent or trade) that was at that level. It was a fair deal both ways, giving both teams something they really needed.
Why give up the pick for Jansen when you don't need to for Chapman.

I won't even ask about Melancon...lol
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Hanley playing 1B is probably best for everyone.

I'd love to get a like Steve Pearce in here on a short term deal rather than have EE 5 or 6 years.

If you're a Shaw believe you don't even need him, you just need a the Chris Young of 1B. A guy who can hit lefties and maybe play once in a while against RHPs when Shaw is in a funk. It's not perfect but it's more economically efficient for now.
I don't want EE but I'm not a Travis Shaw believer at all. I don't think you need a monster bat, just a guy you know will be around league average. You can make a legitimate claim that none of Moncada, Holt, Shaw or Sandoval will even provide that. I was even going to say you need the Chris Young of 1b, but I think you want the left handed version. Especially with Ortiz gone.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
I don't want EE but I'm not a Travis Shaw believer at all. I don't think you need a monster bat, just a guy you know will be around league average. You can make a legitimate claim that none of Moncada, Holt, Shaw or Sandoval will even provide that. I was even going to say you need the Chris Young of 1b, but I think you want the left handed version. Especially with Ortiz gone.
Totally fair.

i'm not really a Shaw believe either.

I would like to get Pearce and I'd have to dig deeper for another 1B I'd like. But really just guys who can keep the spot warm for Travis.

I wonder if Pitt would trade Jaso since Bell is pretty much ready for the big leagues anyway.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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Sam Travis really isn't the type of guy you keep a spot warm for but he could definitely find himself in a position to get at bats next year. I like him considerably more than Travis Shaw, but Shaw is more versatile.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
Sam Travis really isn't the type of guy you keep a spot warm for but he could definitely find himself in a position to get at bats next year. I like him considerably more than Travis Shaw, but Shaw is more versatile.
Totally fair. But there also isn't much I'd want to commit to long term.

I'd rather get a short term solution and see if Travis can prove to be the solution before committing long term.

Although I am curious what Chicago would want for Abreu.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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Yeah, I'm thinking the Mark Reynolds or Napoli's of the world. They shouldn't require much of a commitment.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

oppresses WARmongers
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Mar 11, 2008
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At the time of the Kimbrel trade it's fine to have an issue with (possible unknown length of suspension).

Now, he's a FA. No reason to not go hard after him. None.
Why give up the pick for Jansen when you don't need to for Chapman.

I won't even ask about Melancon...lol
If you believe he's likely a woman beater, there is plenty of reason not to want him anywhere near your roster. And that's to say nothing of him being someone who decided to blow off steam by unloading a firearm in his garage. They've got young players they are breaking in and I wouldn't want that jackass anywhere near them as they continue to develop, I don't care how hard he throws. If he's also a woman beater, even more so. I'm guessing we won't hear so much as a credible whisper about the Sox being in on Chapman this winter.

As for Jansen over Melancon, I'd drop the pick to grab Jansen over Melancon in a heartbeat. Jansen is the best reliever in the game (Britton had the best year, but can't touch Jansen's track record). Melancon is a very nice fallback option, though.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
If you believe he's likely a woman beater, there is plenty of reason not to want him anywhere near your roster. And that's to say nothing of him being someone who decided to blow off steam by unloading a firearm in his garage. They've got young players they are breaking in and I wouldn't want that jackass anywhere near them as they continue to develop, I don't care how hard he throws. If he's also a woman beater, even more so. I'm guessing we won't hear so much as a credible whisper about the Sox being in on Chapman this winter.

As for Jansen over Melancon, I'd drop the pick to grab Jansen over Melancon in a heartbeat. Jansen is the best reliever in the game (Britton had the best year, but can't touch Jansen's track record). Melancon is a very nice fallback option, though.
There was zero evidence of that being the case. So again, it's not really a good reason.

There was more evidence against Brady than against Chapman.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
Yeah, I'm thinking the Mark Reynolds or Napoli's of the world. They shouldn't require much of a commitment.
I'm curious what Nap is gonna get after this year. He was pretty solid.

Turned back the clock to his 2012 season. But his D seems to be falling off.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

oppresses WARmongers
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Mar 11, 2008
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There was zero evidence of that being the case. So again, it's not really a good reason.

There was more evidence against Brady than against Chapman.
That there weren't charges does not mean there was no evidence. The Sox had a chance to trade for him and backed out after looking into it for themselves. Clearly they thought there was something to it.

And again, that he fired off a few rounds illegally because he was angry is more than enough reason to keep him far away from the young kids the Sox are developing as their new core. I want no part of Chapman. The Sox apparently agreed last winter, and I'm guessing they'll think similarly about it this winter.
 

Broda

New Member
Sep 12, 2016
86
That there weren't charges does not mean there was no evidence. The Sox had a chance to trade for him and backed out after looking into it for themselves. Clearly they thought there was something to it.

And again, that he fired off a few rounds illegally because he was angry is more than enough reason to keep him far away from the young kids the Sox are developing as their new core. I want no part of Chapman. The Sox apparently agreed last winter, and I'm guessing they'll think similarly about it this winter.
I think a lot of it was the unclear amount of games he'd get from MLB.

There wasn't evidence of the physical stuff you're referring to. Just the handgun episode.
 

Byrdbrain

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Jul 18, 2005
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I think there is next to no chance Chapman is on this team and I'd think the same if he didn't have the extra baggage that comes with him. I just don't see them spending the money to bring him here when they spent talent for a closer just last year that they will be paying over $13M for next year.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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I think a lot of it was the unclear amount of games he'd get from MLB.

There wasn't evidence of the physical stuff you're referring to. Just the handgun episode.
So MLB suspended him for shits and giggles? That wasn't even the first incident that police had to respond to at that house with Chapman and his girlfriend. If you think that the fact that there were conflicting stories or that the police couldn't get enough cooperation to press charges means there was "no evidence" of the physical stuff, I don't think we're going to find common ground on this. I think it's incredibly naive to just assume the physical violence was made up.

And again, you're not addressing the fact that he got angry enough to shoot the wall in his garage. That alone is enough to steer clear, but I don't think you can just assume the domestic violence accusations were made up.
 

nvalvo

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Jul 16, 2005
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We were talking about a potential Votto acquisition in the Wild Card game thread.

Votto is 32. He is owed $22 for 2017, and then $25 through 2023, with a $20m club option and a $7m buyout for 2024. So either 7/179 or 8/192, pending the option. That's a ton. I think the option gives it an AAV around 22. He'll be 40 in 2024.

Votto's left handed. He hits for considerable but not elite power (24 HR/600 PA), but hits for average very well and gets on base like very few other players this side of Barry Bonds. He's an amazingly disciplined hitter, who has had two seasons with more walks than Ks, and two more within three. He's popped up on the infield fifteen times in his career.

Career line: .313/.425/.536. OPS+ since age 23: 127, 125, 156, 171, 155, 177, 156, 125, 174, 160.

(Take a second and contemplate the possibilities: Betts, Bogaerts, Votto, Ramirez, Sandoval, Pedroia, Bradley, Catcher, Benintendi)

The Reds are bad. They probably won't be much good for a few years, and the Cubs look to hold onto that division for a few more years. By the time he could be the difference maker for the Reds, he'll likely be an older player. If they have any interest in getting out from under Votto's deal — and I'm not sure they do, but I see why they might — now's the time to do it. He's a sixth of their payroll.

I think a moderate prospect package (built around Sam Travis?), with the Reds eating $20-40m, is pretty reasonable.