Chris Sale to Boston for Moncada, Kopech, & 2 Prospects

DJnVa

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Anyone look at his August and September stats from last year?

4W 8L 10HR 87IP
Weird, because he only lost 7 games after the ASB last year.

He was 3-5 in Aug/Sep last year. In August he was 1-3 with an ERA below 3.00, In September he was 2-2, with an ERA of 3.75.

His first half was 14-3, his second half 3-7 with essentially the same peripherals.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Sold high on Moncada and Kopech, gave up 2 lottery tickets (A pitchers with only a fastball and no control do not impress me) for 3 cheap years of an Ace?

I'm all in on this one.

The projection I saw last night was Moncada, Kopech, Swihart and Edro. I literally yelled NO at the top of my lungs scaring everyone else at the bar.

Muuuuuuuuch better.
That was what I wrote on the board. Which actually is similar to what this team might have given up 2-3 years down the road. It's fair value. People might not like it but it's fair. Maybe a slight overpay if Moncada can figure out a curveball. But I'm concerned about Sale's medicals. Let's see how those look.
 

bohous

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I like this deal but expected to see a lot more hand wringing in here when I first read the news. I love this guy pitching every 5 days but is anybody concerned that he can be kind of a flake? I'm not sure how the Adam LaRoche's kid and uniform shredding stuff would play in Boston.
 

The Mort Report

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Word in Chicago was that Sale was trading Ks for contact on the ground to go deeper in games. Who knows if that's accurate.
Yeah I read an article about this early in the season, I'll see if I can find it. It basically said he was becoming more of a pitcher, not a thrower trying to strike everyone out
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

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Worst case scenario on this trade is Sale gets injured, Moncada turns into Stanton and Kopech turns into Troy Percival. Given the likelihood of all three of those happening, I'm pretty pleased with this deal. I also assume this makes Clay very expendable which makes me even happier - I will however expect a full mea culpa if we have to eat a $1 of Clay's salary in a trade.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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No, you're thinking of Luis A. Basabe. The guy we traded is his brother. :)

Now we should follow this trade up with moving Pomeranz for a power bat. He has a lot more trade value than Buchholz and we have 4 lefties in the rotation if he stays.
Pomeranz is the guy you move for a bat IF he has value such as he did around the deadline.
 

foulkehampshire

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100% okay with this. Ecstatic even
.
This makes the Sox better next year and presumably for the remainder of Sale's contract. Health concerns overblown, can be applied to anybody who throws a baseball for a living. Sale's only 27-28 so I'm not particularly worried about age-related decline. Proven power/control pitcher in the AL who's thrived in a hitter's park with mostly terrible defenses.

Moncada might be good or great, needs more seasoning and the Sox aren't hurting on good young position players. Devers growth last year makes him a tad bit redundant at 3B. No real room in the OF, 2B, SS. Also, strikeout concerns valid.
Kopech: Young, has had maturity issues in the past, control problems. Could be Scherzer, could be Kimbrel, could be Daniel Bard. TINSTAAPP.

As far as gutting the farm system goes, not really worried. I like winning more than glowing BA/BP reports and Soxprospects lists.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Sox have spend roughly $32MM on Moncada to date, plus another $1.5MM on Kopech, including bonus and salary for 2015-16 -- that's sunk cost. So theoretically you could add $11MM to each of the three years on Sale's deal, making him relatively close to market value.

I like the trade -- concerned about Moncada's strikeouts, and Kopech looks more like a reliever than a starter. Thrilled not to have lost EdRod or Devers. But need to remember the past as well as the future.

Edit: Added Kopech's bonus
 
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moondog80

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And:

Betts controlled through 2020
Boegards controlled through 2019
Bradley controlled through 2020
Swihart controlled through 2021
Benintendi controlled through 2022
Edro controlled through 2020
Price controlled through 2022
Porcello controlled through 2019
Sale controlled through 2019
Pedroia controlled through 2020

So that's your top-3 starters, your entire outfield, your middle infield and your catching situation, all controlled for the next three years. And that's before any of these guys sign any extensions.

The 2020 offseason might be brutal, but at this point there aren't that many openings for young players even if the system had more talent to promote.

Minor quibble, Price has an opt-out after 2018. But the larger point holds up.
 

Adrian's Dome

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Love the deal, hate the deal, the only thing you can say about Dombrowski is that he gets shit done. I think originally when he took the helm he set a hard line on Mookie, Benintendi, and Moncada and left everyone else on the table for trades to improve the major league squad, but eventually turned a bit on Moncada, especially with the chance to acquire a guy like Sale.

Losing Yoan hurts a bit and leaves us with an even bigger question mark for the future of 3B, but talent for talent, and Sale is reasonably-priced, top-tier talent that very well may give Boston the best (and deepest) rotation in baseball. Sit back and think for a second about how David Price is our #3 and the upside of the 4-5 in EdRod and Pomeranz.

I hope they take this current core to the WS for the next 3 seasons while avoiding other major moves and restocking the farm. It's getting bare down there, but the major-league squad has, barring catastrophic injuries, a great chance to pull a title or two.
 

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I think it's an amazing trade and immediately makes the Red Sox the best team in the AL. I assume Pomeranz is pushed to the pen or traded. Either way he is a valuable piece that you can now move.
I think that's a tough call. If you trade Pomeranz, you're counting on Buchholz or Wright. If they fail/get hurt, you're looking at Owens, Johnson, and Elias, so more lefties.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

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Andy Marte, age 20 (Rk, AA) — .276/.370/.540, 14.9 BB%, 22.9 K%
Yoan Moncada, age 21 (A+, AA) — .294/.407/.511, 17.7 BB%, 30.6 K%
This made me smile.

So Dombrowski is doing what he does... build a great rotation with a mediocre bullpen. Here's hoping he fixes the latter and then Pablo at the hot corner becomes less of a concern.
 

Marbleheader

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Love this deal. I was concerned about the shine coming off if he struggled more at the ML level. If they had concerns about Moncada's development, this is the time and the type of player you deal him for. There's more coming.
 

Fishercat

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Yeah...it sucks to lose Moncada but if you get Chris Sale for three years at his salary that's the kind of player you trade him for and you go for it. I think we all knew this kind of trade was in Dombrowski's arsenal and it's nice to see him get it done by only giving up one of the big blue chips with a strong prospect in Kopech.

I feel like the hypothesis on previous Sale trades was two of the big blue chips and I think they got it done with one and other good pieces.
 

Marciano490

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This made me smile.

So Dombrowski is doing what he does... build a great rotation with a mediocre bullpen. Here's hoping he fixes the latter and then Pablo at the hot corner becomes less of a concern.
Why is our bullpen mediocre? We have a very good closer and now a very good setup man.
 

joe dokes

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In this way, Dombrowski is the better man for the job (making the decisions on Yawkey Way) than Cherington right now. Ben built the foundation of young talent with a massive wave of prospects behind it that weren't all going to fit on the major league roster. Dombrowksi is converting that excess to major league pieces that will help the team win a lot of games right now and in the next few years.

Ben Cherington doesn't make this deal. Or the Kimbrel deal, I don't think. Never mind the Pomeranz deal. Dombrowski is doing exactly what people feared in cashing in all of the prospect chips, but he's bringing back big time players for the most part, with lots of control left.

I can't say I would rate any of these deals as a bad one. And I can't conceive of any circumstances in which Ben Cherington would have made any of them.
The control is important, in the de facto salary cap era. Maybe it costs an extra body to get a younger, controlled player, but if you have the bodies, its a reasonable investment.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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We gave up exactly what FG projected as a fair return in July for what it's worth:

"[Moncada's] value gets you most of the way to Sale, so the second piece could be a higher risk guy like hard-throwing righty Michael Kopech (#93 BA/#83 MLB), since back-end Top 100 pitching prospects are worth about $15 million. Toss in some sweeteners on top of that, and the White Sox would at least have to think about it, as Moncada and Kopech could give them a pretty great return."
This is very impressive.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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BJBossman

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This made me smile.

So Dombrowski is doing what he does... build a great rotation with a mediocre bullpen. Here's hoping he fixes the latter and then Pablo at the hot corner becomes less of a concern.
This bullpen should be more than mediocre once Smith gets back.

Not to mention they could easily move Buch to a team looking for pitching to get another RP.
 

DanoooME

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I'm a little sad that I won't get to see Moncada on the Sox, but I'm glad that I won't have to fret every time I watch him flail at a pitch down and away for the next year or two.
Well, you'll still get to see that from Xander and JBJ, so no worries there.

Love the deal, hate the deal, the only thing you can say about Dombrowski is that he gets shit done. I think originally when he took the helm he set a hard line on Mookie, Benintendi, and Moncada and left everyone else on the table for trades to improve the major league squad, but eventually turned a bit on Moncada, especially with the chance to acquire a guy like Sale.

Losing Yoan hurts a bit and leaves us with an even bigger question mark for the future of 3B, but talent for talent, and Sale is reasonably-priced, top-tier talent that very well may give Boston the best (and deepest) rotation in baseball. Sit back and think for a second about how David Price is our #3 and the upside of the 4-5 in EdRod and Pomeranz.
DD is certainly aggressive, I'll give him that.

Now is the next shoe dropping Justin Turner on a 3 year deal or so, with Pablo going to DH?

I am really disappointed to lose Moncada, but the rest aren't that big a deal, because as alluded to previously by other posters there's a lot of wishcasting in those last 3 guys. I wanted to see an all home grown IF, but alas it doesn't look like it will happen any time soon. I think Devers is still two years away. Let's hope Sale's elbow holds up and he's a lot more consistent than Price.

Sale's career numbers in Fenway: .247/.309/.294, 6 G, 3 GS, 22.1 IP, 23/4 K/BB. Not too shabby facing the Sox offense.
 

In my lifetime

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The RS are now a tremendous team in any playoff series lining up 3 "aces". Hard to believe a little over a year ago, we were all complaining the RS needed an ace and now they arguably have 3.
 

TimScribble

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At this point, sign EE or package a SP for a big bat. Go all in.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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This is a fair trade, which, considering how good Sale has been, and how cheap and controllable he is, is remarkable. You might not want to trade your top prospects, but I can't see how anyone can call this an "overpay." Trading Betts in the midst of an MVP-caliber year plus the high floor/high ceiling Benintendi (plus more) last July would have been an "overpay."

My main reservation about trading for Sale was the fear that we'd give up E-Rod (whom I value more highly than Kopech) and Moncada+. Now, my main concern is how they're going to manage 4 LH SPs in Fenway. Maybe they have plans to raise the Monster another 10 feet. Plenty of time to do that before spring...!
 

Cesar Crespo

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Sold high on Moncada and Kopech, gave up 2 lottery tickets (A pitchers with only a fastball and no control do not impress me) for 3 cheap years of an Ace?

I'm all in on this one.

The projection I saw last night was Moncada, Kopech, Swihart and Edro. I literally yelled NO at the top of my lungs scaring everyone else at the bar.

Muuuuuuuuch better.
Alex Basabe isn't a pitcher but he's definitely a lottery ticket. He's been my favorite Redsox prospect for the last 2 years. If you go only on upside, he was probably only behind Moncada (and Ben10 if you include him) as far positional players are concerned. Alex could easily be a top 50 prospect next year or never make it out of A ball. He struggled in the first half but put it all together in the 2nd half earning himself a promotion to Salem. His first half splits were .222/.293/.397. His 2nd half splits were .299/.359/.498. All this while cutting his k% from 29.8% to 20.7%. His bb rate did fall though, from 9.3% to 8.0%. Sample sizes of 215 PA in 1st half, 251 in second.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

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Why is our bullpen mediocre? We have a very good closer and now a very good setup man.
Kimbrel is a heart attack closer. He's good, but not great. Thornburg is another good addition, but is there anyone in the bullpen right now that you have 100% confidence they're going to shut it down? It can be a good bullpen to be paired with what looks like a great rotation, but I think even if they go get Holland it might not be good enough.
 

The Gray Eagle

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At this point, sign EE or package a SP for a big bat. Go all in.
Since we are clearly going for it all for the next 3 years, we should do both of those. Try to get Encarnacion (hopefully for only 3 years) and trade Pomeranz for another bat or a top level relief pitcher.

You could use Pomeranz as a reliever here, but it seems like he should bring back more value in a trade because he was a good starter last year.
 

grimshaw

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So. . .
Game 1 - Hendricks vs Sale
Game 2 - Arrieta vs Price
Game 3 - Lester vs Porcello
Game 4 - Lackey vs. Eduardo
 

AB in DC

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Wow, talking about GFIN mode.

Just like the Pomeranz trade, we're giving up 2020-2024 huge potential for a 2017-2019 sure thing. That's a good deal.
 

TheoShmeo

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Kimbrel is a heart attack closer. He's good, but not great. Thornburg is another good addition, but is there anyone in the bullpen right now that you have 100% confidence they're going to shut it down? It can be a good bullpen to be paired with what looks like a great rotation, but I think even if they go get Holland it might not be good enough.
My guess is that they will move Pomeranz to the pen, which would help.

Then it's five of Price, Sale, Porcello, ERod, Wright and Buck, with Pomeranz as starter insurance and part of a better pen. Injuries have a way of sorting these things out but I could also see them trading Buck for more pen help or positional depth.
 

joe dokes

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Kimbrel is a heart attack closer. He's good, but not great. Thornburg is another good addition, but is there anyone in the bullpen right now that you have 100% confidence they're going to shut it down? It can be a good bullpen to be paired with what looks like a great rotation, but I think even if they go get Holland it might not be good enough.
who *isn't* a heart attack closer? Britton last year. Wade Davis the year before. Its the nature of the beast. Kimbrel walks guys, but doesn't give up hits. Despite Tim McCarver warbling at me from the Springfield Retirement Castle, a walk is pretty much the same as a hit. Even when the leadoff guy gets one. It just takes longer.
 

joe dokes

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Wow, talking about GFIN mode.

Just like the Pomeranz trade, we're giving up 2020-2024 huge potential for a 2017-2019 sure thing. That's a good deal.
True. But there's a bit more to it. It's not like all the guys on the team from 2017-19 are going to die on 1/1/20.
 

PrometheusWakefield

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My guess is that they will move Pomeranz to the pen, which would help.

Then it's five of Price, Sale, Porcello, ERod, Wright and Buck, with Pomeranz as starter insurance and part of a better pen. Injuries have a way of sorting these things out but I could also see them trading Buck for more pen help or positional depth.
Maybe need a recount there.
True. But there's a bit more to it. It's not like all the guys on the team from 2017-19 are going to die on 1/1/20.
No, but I would like to see the team to stop trading prospects now and start to focus a bit on restocking the system. We don't want to become the Tigers.