30 for 30

steveluck7

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Good show but the one problem with Bo Knows was: not enough Bo.

His interview clips were all good. He's kind of a soft spoken guy and he comes across as thoughtful. I wanted more Bo and fewer pundits, although Klosterman had some good comments.

It's just more interesting to hear Bo talk about what it was like being Bo than to hear anyone talk about what it was like to watch Bo on TV.
I agree. I was somewhat underwhelmed by the documentary overall. I would have loved a segment where Bo confirmed or denied some of the urban legends.
I do get the feeling that he in uncomfortable talking about the "legend"
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I would have loved a segment where Bo confirmed or denied some of the urban legends.
That would have defeated the entire point of the documentary, which was to show back in the late 80s there was a guy who was so awesome at sports that there were myths created about him. How many people called him a real-life Paul Bunyon? And how these legends seem quaint now with dozens of 24/7 sports shows, the internet, etc. This doc was not only about Bo Jackson, but how we perceived athletes in a simpler time. Also it showed how the legends made Jackson one of the first true sports marketing super stars and how he (not consciously) ushred in an era where he was multi-media.

Having Bo say, "No. I never jumped over a 40-foot ditch when I was a kid" would have invalidated everything that came after that. There are times when it's better not to know the whole story. And I think that is a direct commentary--and the overall point of the 30/30 episode--of how sports is covered today.
 

kenneycb

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Klosterman more or less summed it up at the very beginning when he said Bo was basically the final athlete where this could actually happen, which gets to the point JMOH describes above.
 

moondog80

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For all of his speed and the strength of his arm, Bo mostly played LF, and never had a dWAR above 0 for whatever that is worth. Presumably he was poor at reading fly balls?
 

Oil Can Dan

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Minor quibble to what was otherwise a great episode:

Jim Riswold, the “creator of the ‘Bo Knows’ campaign” for Nike said that at the time of the first ‘Bo Knows’ ad during the 1999 MLB All Star Game that "Nike was behind Reebok". Unfortunately he didn’t specify exactly how but I assume he meant in general market share. Does anyone believe that to be true? I don’t know if it is or isn’t but although I was only 18 at the time I just don’t remember a time when Nike wasn’t #1 in terms of sneakers/athletic shoes.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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Minor quibble to what was otherwise a great episode:

Jim Riswold, the “creator of the ‘Bo Knows’ campaign” for Nike said that at the time of the first ‘Bo Knows’ ad during the 1999 MLB All Star Game that "Nike was behind Reebok". Unfortunately he didn’t specify exactly how but I assume he meant in general market share. Does anyone believe that to be true? I don’t know if it is or isn’t but although I was only 18 at the time I just don’t remember a time when Nike wasn’t #1 in terms of sneakers/athletic shoes.
It was the '89 all-star game, wasn't it? I don't remember Nike being so huge in the 80's. Really, pre-Air Jordans I don't remember them being that popular. and Jordan's first championship was in '91, so the timeline seems about right.
 

Oil Can Dan

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Right, '89 instead of '99 of course. Any event that just seems surprising to me now if true. In looking through Bo's MLB and NFL stats he really doesn't now seem like he was some guy that was on a trajectory to be among the best ever or anything close, but I do remember him being larger than life at the time. He was an easy guy to root for back then. Upon further review it's interesting to consider how much marketing had to do with it all though. It seems like he and Jordan really opened the door for Nike to become the powerhouse brand that it is today.
 

Spacemans Bong

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Bo's physical gifts were insane, obviously, but he also had an outrageous work ethic, so people had confidence he would harness those physical gifts. Even at the age of 28. He showed consistent year-on-year improvement with the Royals, for example and by 1990 he had become a pretty good ballplayer.

He's also 10th all time in yards per carry.
 

canderson

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[quote name='Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat' timestamp='1356065120' post='4472920']
Reebok was huge in the 80's. Air Jordans really changed things for Nike, and obviously, they've never looked back.
[/quote] I remember Agassi having a pair of shoes that were the hottest things of the year (can't remember if they were Reebok or Assics or whatnot) but as they came out Nike was quickly, very quickly, taking control of the market.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Reebok was huge in the 80's. Air Jordans really changed things for Nike, and obviously, they've never looked back.
As big as Jordans were, Reebok Pumps were bigger AND they beat Nike at their own game. Nike pumps had a little gun that you need to use to pump their shoes up, Reebok had a basketball on the shoe that you pumped up. And in 91 at the NBA All-Star Game Weekend, Dee Brown made the pumps even more popular when he pumped up his shoes before dunks (he won the contest, when it still meant something).

Having said all that, from what I remember Nike and Reebok were neck-and-neck. If Reebok was ahead of Nike, it wasn't by much. Riswold made it sound as if Bo pulled Nike out of the trash can, which isn't true. He and Jordan and Aggasi were all instrumental in making Nike who they are today.
 

Vinho Tinto

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Found this on the NYT's website

EDIT: JMOH, I remember the Nike pumps. They were very faulty and people felt silly having to attach the pump to the shoe. I never wanted a pair of Reebok Pump's, but they were massive. I had an after school job at a mall in Springfield, and the Foot Locker was instantly selling out their deliveries for months. I'd say that fad last about a year before people moved on.

That said, the Air Jordan's were insanely popular to the point they weren't even displayed. There was no point to it since the availability was so limited and they went through their stock via preorders.
 

mabrowndog

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The 3rd batch of 30-for-30 documentaries starts airing in March. The first two sound like compelling films.
 
“Survive and Advance” chronicles the ’82-83 N.C. State men’s basketball team which reeled off 10 straight wins to capture the NCAA title over the Univ. of Houston's “Phi Slamma Jamma” team. It debuts March 17 at 9:00pm ET, just after the NCAA Tournament bracket is unveiled. The documentary was directed by Jonathan Hock, who oversaw other “30 for 30” projects on former NBAer Chris Herren (“Unguarded”) and former NFLer Marcus Dupree (“The Best That Never Was”).
Meanwhile, ESPN will also team up with NFL Films and director Ken Rodgers for a glance at the ’83 NFL Draft, which had six QBs taken in the first round, including Pro Football HOFers John Elway, Jim Kelly and Dan Marino. Debuting April 23 at 9:00pm ET -- two nights before the ’13 Draft -- “Elway to Marino” focuses not only on the star-studded draft class, but also on its impact on a league that was just coming off a player strike and fending off the emerging USFL.
 
I wonder if they were able to involve Lorenzo Charles in the first film before his untimely death in June 2011.
 
 

mabrowndog

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Also from the above link:
 



 
ESPN Films VP and Exec Producer Connor Schell also touched on the five “30 for 30” short films that have debuted on Grantland.com. He said ESPN Films hopes to produce approximately 12-15 shorts this year. “Collectively we love that we have that creative outlet now,” he said. “There’s an incredible reservoir of stories in the sports world and the television format of 50-75 or 100 minutes is not necessarily the right format for every story.”
 

mabrowndog

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Survive and Advance, which aired last night, was fantastic. I remember so much about that impossible NC State run (I was a college freshman), but there was also so much I never saw. The ACC tournament wasn't broadcast beyond the southern states back then, so those of us up north never watched their upsets over an absolutely stacked UNC team (Jordan, Perkins, Worthy, Daugherty, etc) and Virginia with Sampson (the greatest college center I'd ever seen up to that point).
 
Had Valvano led such an incredible effort 20-30 years later, in the era of burgeoning media and internet access, it's impossible to overstate the levels to which his global popularity would have soared. Even before his ESPYs speech, he was one of the most engaging, entertaining and captivating public speakers on the planet, and there was a ton of footage last night I either hadn't seen in forever or hadn't seen period which reminded me of that. Following the NCAA investigation that led to his departure from NC State and his taking on a broadcasting role, his presence courtside would get me watch just about any game he happened to be calling no matter how shitty the matchup.
 
But this film was about far more than Valvano. Great insights and recollections from Whittenburg, Bailey, McQueen, Gannon, and others from that team, players, coaches & staff alike, juxtaposed with the recent passing of Lorenzo Charles who slammed home the shot that slayed Goliath.
 
It was also great seeing the footage from the balls-to-the-wall semifinal between Houston & Louisville, which I hadn't seen in 30 years. I'd love to have that entire game on DVD.
 

SoxScout

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It was awesome, I thought my favorite part was when the UNLV's Sidney Green ripped Thurl Bailey before their 2nd round game and Bailey then went for 25 and 10 and outfought Green for a rebound and layup winner at the buzzer.
 
Also, I never realized how much of a true beast Ralph Sampson was and can we please get a Phi Slamma Jamma 30 for 30.
 

Dehere

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mabrowndog said:
It was also great seeing the footage from the balls-to-the-wall semifinal between Houston & Louisville, which I hadn't seen in 30 years. I'd love to have that entire game on DVD.
That entire game is on youtube. I actually watched it not that long ago. Posting via mobile and can't post the link but just search Houston-Louisville 1983.

I really hate how overcoached and overmanaged basketball has become. When you see a game like that Houston-Louisville game that's so fast and wide-open....oh man is it exciting.

Some of these recent 30 For 30s feel too long to me. I enjoyed this one but, damn, two hours? Even watching via DVR and skipping the commercials it was too long. Had the same feeling about the Bartman one.
 

canderson

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That was really fucking great. I was 2 when NC State won that title, but was in the ESPN basketball wheelhouse for the ESPY speech. I didn't know a lot of the story and very happy I do now.

Whittenburg has what appears to be a little speaking bravado himself.
 

mabrowndog

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Dehere said:
That entire game is on youtube. I actually watched it not that long ago. Posting via mobile and can't post the link but just search Houston-Louisville 1983.
 
I never even thought to look on Youtube, so thanks. Just wish it was all one file rather than chopped up into 7 to 10-min segments.
 
I still have the Loyola Marymount-Wyoming game from the '88 tournament on VHS (119-115 LMU). One of these days I'll get that ripped, converted and uploaded, hopefully before the tape completely deteriorates.
 

Sille Skrub

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No, I actually liked it better than Four Days in October.
 
Obviously I like the 4DIO story better, but as a documentary, Survive and Advance was my favorite.
 
So well done.
 

doldmoose34

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Sille Skrub said:
No, I actually liked it better than Four Days in October.
 
Obviously I like the 4DIO story better, but as a documentary, Survive and Advance was my favorite.
 
So well done.
agree Skrubie, we lived 4 Days, this was a tremendous walk back thru time, and the best part was watching all of them sitting around the table, it felt like you were there, part of the team
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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"Survive And Advance" is the best 30 for 30 episode ever.  If you have 90 minutes, spend it with this installment.  Its powerful, moving and it perfectly explains why sports are so compelling.
 

berniecarbo1

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I remember JImmy V from his days at Iona. A friend of mine played at Fairfield and the Stags played them every year. He was a very cool guy back then and you just knew big things were coming his way. Agree with Dog above that today, if Jimmy had been doing his thing now rather than 30 years ago,   he would have been huge. If a guy can take a nobody program to the Sweet 16 then get a gig in the Pac 12, imagine where Valvano would have been  in today's market with his success and charisma. I think he was a precursor to Pitino. I always thought Jimmy V would one day coach the Knicks. He probabaly would have done even bigger things. 
 

reggiecleveland

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kenneycb

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America's hat is so cute sometimes.

Also, there's a pretty extensive documentary about this game from HBO I believe. I saw it a while ago but seem to recall it being pretty solid.
 

reggiecleveland

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Nice substance to your come back. And that is the whole thing. When the USA thinks they get screwed holy fucked we never hear the end of it. Seriously those guys need to get over it. Boo Fucking hoo 40 years later Jesus give it a rest.
 

kenneycb

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Yes it was a joke.  And it's also that nobody cares about women's soccer outside of two weeks every 2 to 4 years.

Edit: Oh, we also don't hate Canada like I presume we did the USSR. NAFTA just doesn't hold the same clout as the Cold War.
 

cromulence

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reggiecleveland said:
Nice substance to your come back. And that is the whole thing. When the USA thinks they get screwed holy fucked we never hear the end of it. Seriously those guys need to get over it. Boo Fucking hoo 40 years later Jesus give it a rest.
 
Easy for you to say. I really challenge you to bring up a "bad call" situation that compares to USA vs. USSR. It's just way beyond what we've come to expect from sports. What do you even mean by "get over it"? I agree, if any of those guys' lives are still affected by it on a day-to-day basis, they need to work on moving past it. That doesn't mean they should accept their silver medals and STFU forever.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I have no clue in which women's soccer game Canada got screwed, but nobody is stopping anyone from making a documentary about it if the story is compelling.
 
It is easy to look at this as the "USA getting screwed", but really this particular story is about those 12 (or howevermany) guys who had their one chance at winning an Olympic Gold Medal and it got yanked away from them in tragic fashion.  Just because they happen to have been from the US who had dominated Olympic basketball up until that point does not make their individual stories any less painful for them.  Fans of USA basketball who are still hung up on this 40 years later need to let it go, but I understand why those individuals have still refused to accept their Silver Medals.
 
Lastly, I agree that "Survive and Advance" was the best 30 for 30 yet.  Just awesome.
 

trekfan55

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I think that the call that denied the US of the Gold Medal in 1972 is by far the worst call in the history of sports.
 
It's not about a referee not allowing a shot when there was 0.1 seconds on the clock, or about a referee not seeing a foul, or any other human error (as egregious as it may be).
This was a FIBA Official (the President I think) coming down from the stands and ordering the officials to replay the last 3 seconds (which had actually been played).  And a referee obviously motioning a USA player to step away from the USSR player making the inbound pass (and said referee did not speak English).  That is the reason why they will not accept the Silver Medals and I happen to agree.
 
Imagine Bud Selig coming down from the stands after the Dave Roberts Steal and ordering Roberts back to first because "Mo was not ready".
 

Spacemans Bong

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reggiecleveland said:
Nice substance to your come back. And that is the whole thing. When the USA thinks they get screwed holy fucked we never hear the end of it. Seriously those guys need to get over it. Boo Fucking hoo 40 years later Jesus give it a rest.
 
We'll do that when Canada admits they'd have lost the Summit Series if Bobby Clarke didn't break Valeri Kharlamov's ankle in Game 6, instead of fetishizing it as Canada's greatest moment since Vimy Ridge.
 

Vandalman

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Doug Beerabelli said:
Survive and Advance was suuuperb.
I finished watching it yesterday and I agree. The bar room roundtable discussions with former players were great, especially Terry Gannon.
 
Also, I noticed Dereck Whittenburg was listed as executive producer.
 

reggiecleveland

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You don't understand 72. The type of things that happened in the 72 basketball game happened all 4 games in Moscow. Soviet players kicked Canadians even to the point of splitting the shin pads of and drawing blood. The reffing was so bad it became too obvious for their players to take.

The difference was these were not college kids. The reffing got so bad the Russian players complained their organization didn't believe they could win. I don't like what Clark did but if it had to be done to win, and he says it did, then I am glad he did it. He scared the fucked out of the Russians. That series became a war and without Orr or Hull they did what they had to.

I am happy they did what they had to to win and we don't have a weepy documentary about it. But they didn't win because Fifa was worried about TV ratings.

Anyway none of this changes the arrogant self centered full of shit response Americans had to the Soccer win, Costas had the Fucking nerve to preach about how the Canadians should know blaming officials is not good fit and losing gracefully is Olympian. I am not sure if he had the same blazer on when he interviewed Mary Decker or the made his feature about 72 basketball.

I have never heard any Canadian say the Soviets should quit whining about the slash. A Canadian even made a documentary about it. Any Canadian that was to give condescending sportsmanship advice to the Russians would be as bad as the mildest of the American media. But most American media were disks. What Fucking classless bullies. A media machine that gives weepy handjobs to the 72 team every four years but has no sympathy or perspective when USA gets lucky with a bad call and beats up neighbor and an ally over it us full of shit and shows the USA at its worst.
 

cromulence

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Wow, you're all worked up aren't you? Not even worth responding to a rant like that. It's just hilarious how you've worked up a righteous fury over your own pet injustices but are then ice-cold to everyone else's. The only things that matter are the things you personally care about, right?
 

moondog80

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I thought "Elway to Marino" was pretty good, but they played up the fact that the Pats really wanted to trade up for Elway, suggtesting that the only roadbloack was that the Colts wouldn't trade him within the division.  I've never heard this before, it sounds a little fishy.  Elway didn't want to go to Baltimore due to geography and the fact that the Colts were so inept at the time.  But he would have come to New England?
 

bosoxsue

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moondog80 said:
I thought "Elway to Marino" was pretty good, but they played up the fact that the Pats really wanted to trade up for Elway, suggtesting that the only roadbloack was that the Colts wouldn't trade him within the division.  I've never heard this before, it sounds a little fishy.  Elway didn't want to go to Baltimore due to geography and the fact that the Colts were so inept at the time.  But he would have come to New England?
I got the impression that Colts coach Frank Kush was as much a reason for the reluctance as the geography and the ineptitude. Opposite of a Jack Elway type. Maybe Meyer would have been more acceptable, as he had been a quarterback when he played? More of a quarterback guy?
 

kenneycb

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I only caught like 2 minutes but the 2 minutes I caught were John Elway mentioning that him and his friends watched "All My Children" everyday at noon.
 

Van Everyman

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moondog80 said:
I thought "Elway to Marino" was pretty good, but they played up the fact that the Pats really wanted to trade up for Elway, suggtesting that the only roadbloack was that the Colts wouldn't trade him within the division. I've never heard this before, it sounds a little fishy. Elway didn't want to go to Baltimore due to geography and the fact that the Colts were so inept at the time. But he would have come to New England?<br />
<br /><br />It had nothing to do with geography. Elway says in the documentary that they used geography as an excuse. He didn't want to play on a loser team. Which Bob Irsay proved when he traded Elway for about a third of what they would've gotten in even one of the worst deals that Accorsi had in place. <br /><br />I thought it was good too -- odd they didn't mention how similar this whole Elway drama was to Eli twenty years later. I mean, right down to the micromanaging dad, this was very similar. Also weird that they dance around the Marino coke rumors a ton but never explicitly say what they were. Even Marino alludes to how baseless they were (awkwardly, and not entirely convincingly I may add). <br /><br />
kenneycb said:
I only caught like 2 minutes but the 2 minutes I caught were John Elway mentioning that him and his friends watched "All My Children" everyday at noon.<br />
<br /><br />Yes, that was a total "WTF, did I just hear what I thought I heard?" moment. <br /><br />Also, let's not overlook how utterly terrible Elway looked in that interview. Talk about letting yourself go to shit.