Race and the Red Sox

BigChara33

New Member
May 2, 2017
79
Not just a Yankees fan, but a BLACK Yankees fan. Race card out on the table. Check it with your superior white income, education, home ownership, or employment level card. They all defeat mine.
Check what? Your lack of ability to make a rational argument? Time to grow up.
 

Meff Nelton

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Aug 6, 2009
1,181
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I see. You're a racist. I really hope a lifetime ban is in order.
I really wanted to go to sleep, but now I have to respond to you...

When you play things off as being attributed to the supposed 'race card,' it's representative of the history of white reaction to African Americans struggling for equality, and ignoring the historical legacy of institutional racism in the American system.

Going back to emancipation, African Americans have been a permanent underclass by any measure of success in American society. Education levels, income, incarceration levels, any framework you want to measure it by. By economic measures, African Americans are essentially in the same place as they were when they exited reconstruction in the 19th century. This is completely ignoring incarceration and education systems.

When you argue in regards to a race card, you are implicitly making a statement that there is a special privilege afforded to African Americans that does not exist for white people.

My experience is that most people doing this are racists trying to find moral grounding for their racism, and searching for explanations for why their perspectives aren't racist.

You might not be a racist. But if not, you're at least ignorant.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I have worked in group homes and institutions for the last 15 years and have heard the n word more times than I could possibly count. At no point was it (or is it) ever acceptable for a white person to use it. Period. Full stop.
I live in Lewiston, Maine and white people will call black people their nigga and no one will bat an eyelash. Context matters. You may always find it offensive. There are a shit load of people who do not.
 

fineyoungarm

tweets about his subwoofer!
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Oct 20, 2011
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Wait - I don't get this. In what way is David Ortiz not an African American? His ancestry is African. He's an American. Is he somehow disqualified because his native tongue was not English? Are there new rules to this? Where's it all written down?
He is a native of the Domincan Republic. In these parts African American means someone of African heritage born in the USA. This was not my idea. And I just deleted the rest of the post, because others have already addressed the issue.
 
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americantrotter

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Aug 1, 2005
495
Portland
I live in Maine as well and my Ethiopian co-worker has given me the approval to call him the n word. I won't. (Doesn't mean I won't sing along to a rap song in a car, cause that feels weird consciously omitting the artists chosen expressions)

What I find most hilarious is that he calls anyone who doesn't act respectably a Zulu. Though he uses it most for African Americans he doesn't hesitate to call white people Zulus.

What that all means, I don't know.

What I do know is this argument boils down to a few things.

Boston has been labeled racist and the members of this board all want that to go away. We know the progress the city has made and we know that whatever knuckle draggers we have is similar to anywhere and is a problem all of America needs to confront.

Where the conflict lies is how we want it to go away. There's basically two things we've all touched on.

Do we want to protest innocence and bury our heads or explain it away?

Do we want to make a larger political point? (Trump's effect or the sensitivity of minorities)

Basically we're all message boarding and picking a different spot on the same hill. We all agree that racism is awful, but we want others to understand that the view from our spot on the hill is best.

It's maddening. But message boards gonna message board right? Otherwise why are we here?

Interestingly I am taking African American history this semester as I have gone back to college. So my viewpoint is simply that this is just another touchstone where white folks try to deal with discrimination as if it's almost conquered and ignore our sordid past.

The Ringer article posted yesterday was awesome and really sums up my view. This is an American problem not a Boston problem. We need to confront all of it head on.

Speaking as a New Englander, maybe that's a blessing that we can lead on this instead of protesting innocence.

Oh, and change the damn name of Yawkey way.
 

fineyoungarm

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Oct 20, 2011
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PC Drunken Friar

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14,540
South Boston
Chara,

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Jones heard the N-word coming from the area where you were sitting? Maybe he misinterpreted it, but felt it was directed at him? He looks up and sees a sea of white people in the stands and there you go?

And please knock it off with the "race card" bullshit. Unprovoked, he says this happened. There is no race card when the n-word is involved.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Jul 30, 2001
7,187
First off, the fact this happened truly sucks. Why people are questioning Jones on this, especially considering the Sox organization reaction is stupid.

As for CC, my only question is, if it happened to you in Fenway (or anywhere) why didn't you report it then to MLB? Not saying it didn't happen to him, just saying show the same courage Adam Jones just showed.

Love the Betts tweet and the standing ovation from Fenway and the acceptance of it by Jones, who waited to enter the batters box to let it run its course and nodded thanks.

The Rays have a text number setup for issues during the game which makes it easy to report issues without calling attention to yourself that is well publicized at games. Would be surprised if Fenway doesn't have that.

Incredubly disappointing that this shit happened in 2017. No place for it in Fenway or anywhere else. Hopefully this clown never is allowed in another ballpark.
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
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20,684
I read an opinion last night that what really makes people think Boston is racist is not the incidents themselves, it's the way there is this loud clamor, similar to this thread, to scream about how not racist Boston is every time it's accused of being racist.

Why be defensive? Literally, what's the worst thing that's going to happen if "Boston" just says "shit, yes, we have some things to work on" and go work on them instead of "no no no just that guy, it's only that guy."
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Jan 23, 2009
20,676
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I read an opinion last night that what really makes people think Boston is racist is not the incidents themselves, it's the way there is this loud clamor, similar to this thread, to scream about how not racist Boston is every time it's accused of being racist.

Why be defensive? Literally, what's the worst thing that's going to happen if "Boston" just says "shit, yes, we have some things to work on" and go work on them instead of "no no no just that guy, it's only that guy."
Agreed. It feels like these incidents are made worse and blown up more solely because of how defensive a lot of people get (certain members of the media in particular). If the general reaction to incidents like this were as the Red Sox responded (denounce the act, apologize, make no excuses, strive to be better/more vigilant in the future), perhaps the city's reputation would be better.
 

richgedman'sghost

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He is a native of the Domincan Republic. In these parts African American means someone of African heritage born in the USA. This was not my idea. And I just deleted the rest of the post, because others have already addressed the issue.
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2016/10/04/heres-the-street-boston-city-officials-want-to-name-after-david-ortiz

Oh, for Pete's sake. Well, hopefully, the Adam Jones incident will wake the city's street namer contingent up to the reality that this would make things worse, not better. Unless it already has happened.

The station is also named after Tom Yawkey? Is this the old Lechemere stop? (I was exiled to another part of the country decades ago.)[/QUOTE

Wait.What problem do you have with David Ortiz? He is the most dynamic Red Sox player of the past century and the leader on 3 World Series winners. More importantly, his off the field contributions to charity have been legendary. He and Pedro are responsible for breaking down barriers between the Red Sox and the Dominican Community. We're you asleep during the past 15 years? What problem do you have with the man?
 

johnnywayback

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Aug 8, 2004
1,421
I read an opinion last night that what really makes people think Boston is racist is not the incidents themselves, it's the way there is this loud clamor, similar to this thread, to scream about how not racist Boston is every time it's accused of being racist.

Why be defensive? Literally, what's the worst thing that's going to happen if "Boston" just says "shit, yes, we have some things to work on" and go work on them instead of "no no no just that guy, it's only that guy."
This is a much more reasoned and thoughtful version of my own reaction to this thread, which, if I'm another team, I'd print out and laminate as part of my free agent pitch to guys like Betts and Bradley.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
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May 20, 2003
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That's why I said it was moot and irrelevant.

Adam Jones has spit in the face of all Bostonian's. Like I said before, he seems to be pulling the race card, again.
You know, I read this and very nearly banned you on the spot, but I think I'm going to leave it here and watch you get hoist by your own petard.

Jesus Fucking Christ. Everyone has now stated that the incident happened.
 

nolasoxfan

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Jun 11, 2004
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Dave Sheinin’s article in this morning’s WaPo suggests that the Jones incident is an ongoing issue for both the Red Sox and its fan base “[C]learly, something more needs to change,” seems to be the crux of his argument.

NOTE (and EDIT): Sheinin offers no suggestions on how to address these incidents, which I feel leaves a glaring hole in his piece. A one-year ban? Removal of season tickets? Lifetime ban? Sadly, Sheinin offers little guidance. Instead, he only calls for “..officials from the Red Sox and Major League Baseball, who need to make it clear — with something more than words — that the type of behavior Jones received on Monday night can never be tolerated.”

To be honest, I hadn’t heard of the incident until I read this morning’s article.

I don’t believe the acts of an ignorant few define an entire region, city, or fanbase. However, the documented evidence (limited in this article, but clear nevertheless) does suggest that there is more work to be done. Not a good look.
 
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Thetoddwalker

New Member
May 11, 2011
445
New Orleans, LA
Has it occurred to you that the offender wasn't sitting in CF?

Per the NYDaily News:
So peanuts were thrown at the Orioles dugout and hit a cop, but when I google Adam Jones peanuts, every article says that Jones was hit with peanuts. What's the story with this?

Edit: looking back at the articles, it does say peanuts were thrown at him, though wording from a few articles do imply that he was hit with peanuts.
 
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Average Reds

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Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
Dopes, I'm going to apologize in advance for going off here. But I've read through the last six or seven pages of the thread and I'm disgusted. Go ahead and delete this if my comments are over-the-top.

That's why I said it was moot and irrelevant.

Adam Jones has spit in the face of all Bostonian's. Like I said before, he seems to be pulling the race card, again.
What the fuck is wrong with you? And why is responding to racist comments considered "pulling the race card again?" More to the point, why aren't your contributions to this thread proof positive that you are a racist piece of shit?

Many members, including moderators, have shown an almost incredible sense of patience and tolerance in responding to you and you're just digging in. Your responses here indicate that that sense of kindness was misplaced.

Why do they allow Yankee fans to come on this forum and be disrespectful?
This Red Sox fan wants to make it clear that in my disdain for you, I yield to no one.
 

Devizier

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I see. You're a racist. I really hope a lifetime ban is in order.
I was going to write something pithy, like, "You are the shittiest poster on this board", but it seems like it won't do you any good. Because, while this statement is absolutely true, there's really nothing that I or anyone else can do to convince you to be less shitty. That's something that you'll have to arrive at on your own. At this moment, the momentum is swinging in the opposite direction. So perhaps you could spare us all the tedium and fast-forward to the end part where you put up your GBCW post?
 
Jun 27, 2006
66
My experience has been that my friends and aquaintances that are black (including African Americans, Hispanics and Cape Verdians) has been that they hate "using the race card" because thats the first thing the detractors say. They do their best to ignore the ignorance and only respond when it hits near home. I find that people that use " he's playing the race card" are the same people that tie themselves in knots trying to explain that "all lives matter".
 

Average Reds

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Sep 24, 2007
35,330
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Wanted to add one more thing.

We have a tendency here to dissect every incident (regardless of context) as if it were the Zapruder film. And while this is one of the more amusing and endearing traits of SoSH, there are times when it is just not appropriate.

Insisting the every claim of racism be proven beyond all doubt before we take it seriously is the ultimate expression of white privilege, and it serves to trivialize the entire issue by creating a false equivalency between racism and so-called "false claims."

Any member here who accuses Adam Jones of making a false claim or of "playing the race card" better be prepared to either back that up with conclusive evidence or take a rhetorical beating.

Edit: or, what Rusty said right before me ...
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The sheer arrogance of white folks telling a black man who says he's heard racist taunts that he couldn't have possibly heard racist taunts just infuriates me. The very act of initial skepticism contributes to the problem.

Adam Jones has zero reason to make this up. Baseball players as a whole want to ignore sideshows and concentrate on baseball. For Jones to bring it up after the game means that the situation must have been serious and ugly. Yet people rush here (and Gerry Fucking Callahan on the radio) to claim that it couldn't have possibly happened.

Yesterday we heard CC Sabathia say the only place he's been called the N-word was Boston. Local Massachusetts guy Gosder Cherilus, who went to BC and then played for the Colts, Lions and Bucs was quoted in today's Globe that when he was with Indy he was told by other players that they would hear the n-word at Foxborough, and while he was initially indignant because he was a local guy and didn't think it was true, it sure enough was, which surprised him. People really need to stop claiming that they're skeptical.

Jesus Christ. I'm more depressed about the situation today than I was yesterday.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Jun 27, 2012
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Needham, MA
I read an opinion last night that what really makes people think Boston is racist is not the incidents themselves, it's the way there is this loud clamor, similar to this thread, to scream about how not racist Boston is every time it's accused of being racist.

Why be defensive? Literally, what's the worst thing that's going to happen if "Boston" just says "shit, yes, we have some things to work on" and go work on them instead of "no no no just that guy, it's only that guy."
Thank you for this. I've been reading the last few pages and trying to figure out how to craft a response, and this is exactly what I have been trying to say.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

holden
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I read an opinion last night that what really makes people think Boston is racist is not the incidents themselves, it's the way there is this loud clamor, similar to this thread, to scream about how not racist Boston is every time it's accused of being racist.

Why be defensive? Literally, what's the worst thing that's going to happen if "Boston" just says "shit, yes, we have some things to work on" and go work on them instead of "no no no just that guy, it's only that guy."
Toucher & Rich addressed this very point for a good portion of their show this morning on The Sports Hub, they're in complete agreement. They both talked about how they were sat down by the station (which was WBCN at the time) soon after they moved here from Atlanta and were told what they could and couldn't say, topics to avoid, etc when it came to racial matters. Because while we can all agree that racial comments and jokes are unacceptable, any acknowledgment that they occur in Boston sets off this weird defensive response from a lot of people around here, and being non-Bostonians, Toucher & Rich noticed it right away. So they described this weird limbo where Boston's this supposedly enlightened, liberal town where people rightfully jump on you for saying something racist (and take pride in doing so), but if someone actually says Boston is racist, they're a liar who's besmirching the city's name.

I nodded my head, as there are good number of posts here displaying the very reaction Toucher & Rich described, and yesterday afternoon I heard several callers on both EEI and TSH show the same behavior. To the point where they called Adam Jones a liar, much like our good friend BigChara33.

It's very, very strange. And it's very, very real.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
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The sheer arrogance of white folks telling a black man who says he's heard racist taunts that he couldn't have possibly heard racist taunts just infuriates me. The very act of initial skepticism contributes to the problem.

Adam Jones has zero reason to make this up. Baseball players as a whole want to ignore sideshows and concentrate on baseball. For Jones to bring it up after the game means that the situation must have been serious and ugly. Yet people rush here (and Gerry Fucking Callahan on the radio) to claim that it couldn't have possibly happened.

Yesterday we heard CC Sabathia say the only place he's been called the N-word was Boston. Local Massachusetts guy Gosder Cherilus, who went to BC and then played for the Colts, Lions and Bucs was quoted in today's Globe that when he was with Indy he was told by other players that they would hear the n-word at Foxborough, and while he was initially indignant because he was a local guy and didn't think it was true, it sure enough was, which surprised him. People really need to stop claiming that they're skeptical.

Jesus Christ. I'm more depressed about the situation today than I was yesterday.
I'm not sure why you're more depressed today than yesterday. The concern trolling I have seen here has come from one or two of our more dim-witted members, and one or two lurkers to whom we have shown undeserved forbearance to make a point about the power of reason and argument. And in the broader discussion, the story has shifted to the problem of racism across sports; those of us who live in New England or follow the local teams are quite rightly tending to the beam in our own eye rather than the speck in our neighbor's, but other than reporting C.C. Sabathia's remarks, Boston isn't being portrayed nationally as a unique cesspool of racism.

I'm not saying I feel good about what happened, but I feel better today than yesterday. Also, after everything that has happened in the past couple of years, it's reassuring to see that aside from the Gerry Callahans of the world, overt racism is still socially unacceptable.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Apr 12, 2001
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Jesus Fucking Christ. Everyone has now stated that the incident happened.
Except for Gerry Callahan. Because of course he wouldn't believe it.

Yesterday we heard CC Sabathia say the only place he's been called the N-word was Boston. Local Massachusetts guy Gosder Cherilus, who went to BC and then played for the Colts, Lions and Bucs was quoted in today's Globe that when he was with Indy he was told by other players that they would hear the n-word at Foxborough, and while he was initially indignant because he was a local guy and didn't think it was true, it sure enough was, which surprised him. People really need to stop claiming that they're skeptical.
Comedian Michael Che said a similar thing about two months ago and people clutched their pearls when they heard it. "Racism? In Boston? Get my fainting couch!"

Like Smas said, why can't white people accept this and try to fix it? This is the part of the equation that makes zero sense to me. There are racists everywhere, every city has them, but only Boston reacts with such vitriol. And I think that's part of the problem.
 

charlieoscar

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Sep 28, 2014
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I grew up in New Hampshire, graduating high school there in 1960. According to the U.S. Census for that year the population of the state was 606,921, of which 1,903 were listed as Negro (457 of whom lived in towns with population under 2,500). Some were descendants of slaves who escaped to the North and who stayed in larger towns while others came for work in the mills or at the seaport. But the average white New Hampshirite had no contact with them.

Does that mean there was no predjudice to be found? Oh, no, the WASPs looked down on the French-Canadiens who in turn looked down on the Poles and other immigrants from that area of Europe. Protestant ministers would tell us not to associate with Catholics. The town I grew up in (population: 396) had some tourist cabins (I don't know why) that had a sign out front that said, "No Jews."

While I am not condoning or excusing racism or prejudice, I am saying that it has existed throughout the history of mankind. Religion has had a huge role in it as has governments. You don't believe in enough gods; you believe in too many gods; you believe in the wrong god can all devolve into strictures against race, sexual preference, and the like, especially when guided by people running governments.
 

Stitch01

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Jul 15, 2005
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Check what? Your lack of ability to make a rational argument? Time to grow up.
Yeah, lets stick to reasoned MENSA worthy takes like Adam Jones should be suspended for 80+ games for playing the "race card" because you didnt directly hear him called a racial slur while sitting among 30,000 people and, apparently, taking numerous bathroom breaks.
 

Spacemans Bong

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Except for Gerry Callahan. Because of course he wouldn't believe it.



Comedian Michael Che said a similar thing about two months ago and people clutched their pearls when they heard it. "Racism? In Boston? Get my fainting couch!"

Like Smas said, why can't white people accept this and try to fix it? This is the part of the equation that makes zero sense to me. There are racists everywhere, every city has them, but only Boston reacts with such vitriol. And I think that's part of the problem.
Boston's reputation has been in the gutter on race pretty much since the busing crisis, and people feel targeted. I remember the thread here when Barry Bonds said he could never play in Boston because it's racist, and people got all out of shape here (without remembering that his father played center field. For the Yankees.) And for good reason at times.

Somebody told me that Bill Burr once had a joke about Boston where he called it "Racist San Francisco", and as somebody from San Francisco who has a relationship to Boston beyond I likea da sports team, it was kind of an inaccurate joke on two levels. San Francisco is racist as fuck. The small and steadily declining black population has been removed from some of the more desirable parts of the city and relocated to places the city basically ignores (including areas I grew up in or next to). The housing crisis is disproportionately affecting them, since they're the poorest ethnic/racial group in the city, and the population is eventually going to dwindle to almost nothing. Nobody talks about this. There was a scandal recently about unarmed black people getting shot by the cops. Many San Franciscans think Oakland is a burning shithole and attach all sorts of gangbanger stereotypes to it, an attitude that is certainly influenced by the much higher black population in the East Bay.

So getting defensive on the issue makes a certain logical sense, because I think all American cities have a problem with race and therefore the idea that Boston is uniquely bad is kind of ridiculous. But the people getting angry about this kind of stuff should realize that doesn't mean Boston isn't racist, and that doesn't mean Boston doesn't have people who sit in the bleachers and shout racial slurs at Adam Jones. And I think the "Few bad apples" approach probably prevents dealing up front with this problem, because people just ascribe to a few bad apples and don't really think of the pernicious consequences.
 

geoduck no quahog

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I like the part where he implies that being accused of racism is worse than being a piece of shit racist.

And racism being everywhere justifies it being in Boston.

I'm tired of posters playing the "stupid" card.
 

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
18,096
Except for Gerry Callahan. Because of course he wouldn't believe it.

Comedian Michael Che said a similar thing about two months ago and people clutched their pearls when they heard it. "Racism? In Boston? Get my fainting couch!"

Like Smas said, why can't white people accept this and try to fix it? This is the part of the equation that makes zero sense to me. There are racists everywhere, every city has them, but only Boston reacts with such vitriol. And I think that's part of the problem.
Just a note on the vitriolic reaction. The defensiveness that Boston area residents sometimes feel when these incidents come to light is not always the fault of the residents.

I recall being a fan of the Celtics in the 1980's. Because the Celtics had a couple of white stars in Bird and McHale, several of the mediots of the day were all too willing to lump the Celtics with the Red Sox and the rest of the city as being one of the most racist organizations. Even Spike Lee jumped on that bandwagon for a while. Anyone spending more than 5 minutes researching the actual history of the Celtics would realize that the accusation was absolutely rubbish. But that didn't stop the popular narrative from growing legs for a while.

For the record, I'm not defending the Adam Jones deniers at all; they are purposely low-information folks that have absolutely no leg to stand on (including the resident troll/lurker in this group). And Callahan really needs to go. But I can understand why some folks do react by saying that such acts are not representative of today's racial climate in Boston (whether that be true or not), or react by saying similar incidents happen elsewhere. Or why others question what CC Sabathia tweeted out. Unfortunately, the defensive reactions feed negative perceptions of the area, and the resulting feedback loop continues, which probably indirectly leads to the Callahan's of the area getting far more air time than they deserve to comment on an issue they deliberately choose to learn nothing about.

As noted, the correct reaction is to try to fix the perception rather than getting defensive. Just saying the defensive reactions are there for a reason as well.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Toucher & Rich addressed this very point for a good portion of their show this morning on The Sports Hub, they're in complete agreement. They both talked about how they were sat down by the station (which was WBCN at the time) soon after they moved here from Atlanta and were told what they could and couldn't say, topics to avoid, etc when it came to racial matters. Because while we can all agree that racial comments and jokes are unacceptable, any acknowledgment that they occur in Boston sets off this weird defensive response from a lot of people around here, and being non-Bostonians, Toucher & Rich noticed it right away. So they described this weird limbo where Boston's this supposedly enlightened, liberal town where people rightfully jump on you for saying something racist (and take pride in doing so), but if someone actually says Boston is racist, they're a liar who's besmirching the city's name.

I nodded my head, as there are good number of posts here displaying the very reaction Toucher & Rich described, and yesterday afternoon I heard several callers on both EEI and TSH show the same behavior. To the point where they called Adam Jones a liar, much like our good friend BigChara33.

It's very, very strange. And it's very, very real.
On the way in, I heard about five minutes of Callahan, Mutt, and Meter calling Jones a liar for a second day. It's beyond belief. They're victims, you know, because the idea that they would demand proof, that they might be skeptical, is making them seem like racists. They're not! They just are defenders of the truth, out there alone, with their tiny swords, defending the virtue of Boston.
 

Otis Foster

rex ryan's podiatrist
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Jul 18, 2005
1,707
I am still enjoying the part where people downplaying the racism switched gears to an explanation of when and where it's acceptable for white folks to use the n word.
+1. It is not acceptable for a white person. Ever. Even in response to a hand-written invitation, or a pained smile of tolerance from someone of color.

You can't control what other people do, but you can control yourself. It should be imprinted in your DNA by now, along with several similar tropes. If it isn't, you're not trying hard enough.

Or are simply to friggin' stupid.

The need to rehash these issues in 2017 is disheartening.
 

lexrageorge

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18,096
I am still enjoying the part where people downplaying the racism switched gears to an explanation of when and where it's acceptable for white folks to use the n word.
An argument could be made that it's really not acceptable for anyone of any race to use the n word; I do know African Americans that don't really like it being used by others of their race. But I realize there's a ship there that's likely sailed. Edit: to clarify, I do agree that its use by white folk is never justified.
 
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Murderer's Crow

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Jul 15, 2005
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I read an opinion last night that what really makes people think Boston is racist is not the incidents themselves, it's the way there is this loud clamor, similar to this thread, to scream about how not racist Boston is every time it's accused of being racist.

Why be defensive? Literally, what's the worst thing that's going to happen if "Boston" just says "shit, yes, we have some things to work on" and go work on them instead of "no no no just that guy, it's only that guy."
I'll be honest, there were a handful of posts I almost replied to here but didn't want to engage on what feels more like a political thread than a conversation about race. But you are 100% right.

I'm surprised that a large chunk of the conversation is around people saying n**ga. That's the same shit I hear my older aunts and uncles when they say "why is it okay for them to say that but if we say it we are racist!" Get over it.

Boston has a problem and it's not new. It's also not as mixed as many of the large cities in the US. It's closer to Stamford demographically than it is San Francisco. With the lack of diversity comes the slower movement away from racism. There's no action to take except to take a look at yourself and make sure you're not being a nimwit.
 

cornwalls@6

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Apr 23, 2010
6,247
from the wilds of western ma
An honest question: what should be done at Fenway, with regards to trying to prevent these kinds of incidents, that isn't currently being done? Is this merely a matter of more security, or stiffer penalties for those caught engaging in this kind of behavior? (if someone inclined to behave in such a repugnant fashion can even be deterred from doing so), putting their considerable capital and resources behind a public information campaign? It strikes me that at a place where 3 million or so people pass through every year, and alcohol is served, it's inevitable that some morons are going to slip through the cracks. I've read a few things over the last day that seem to imply the Red Sox need to step up and do more, but I'd be interested in hearing specific ideas. As aside, the ongoing argument about whether Boston is uniquely racist is bringing out the best in almost no one. Of course the actions of a few shouldn't indict the many. Any logical adult should know that. But racism/prejudice is a sad reality of American life. Hell, of the human condition. Boston/New England is part of both. Why in gods name do some have such a hard coping with the reality that it can, and does, exist here.
 

The Needler

New Member
Dec 7, 2016
1,803
Just a note on the vitriolic reaction. The defensiveness that Boston area residents sometimes feel when these incidents come to light is not always the fault of the residents.

I recall being a fan of the Celtics in the 1980's. Because the Celtics had a couple of white stars in Bird and McHale, several of the mediots of the day were all too willing to lump the Celtics with the Red Sox and the rest of the city as being one of the most racist organizations. Even Spike Lee jumped on that bandwagon for a while.
I loved that team as much as the next guy, but let's not understate things. They didn't just have "a couple of white stars." The 1986 Celtics were over 70% white in a league that was probably 70% black.

http://nbahoopsonline.com/teams/BostonCeltics/History/Championship/1986.html
 
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Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,312
Is #notallbostonians trending yet?

If our city has a reputation for being racist, the focus should be on what we can do as stakeholders in the city to better that reputation, not cry victim or point to problems with other cities.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
An honest question: what should be done at Fenway, with regards to trying to prevent these kinds of incidents, that isn't currently being done? Is this merely a matter of more security, or stiffer penalties for those caught engaging in this kind of behavior? (if someone inclined to behave in such a repugnant fashion can even be deterred from doing so), putting their considerable capital and resources behind a public information campaign? It strikes me that at a place where 3 million or so people pass through every year, and alcohol is served, it's inevitable that some morons are going to slip through the cracks. I've read a few things over the last day that seem to imply the Red Sox need to step up and do more, but I'd be interested in hearing specific ideas. As aside, the ongoing argument about whether Boston is uniquely racist is bringing out the best in almost no one. Of course the actions of a few shouldn't indict the many. Any logical adult should know that. But racism/prejudice is a sad reality of American life. Hell, of the human condition. Boston/New England is part of both. Why in gods name do some have such a hard coping with the reality that it can, and does, exist here.
1. Fans who see this need to get involved. My preference would be that fans not start fights - just call security and they'll boot the offender. But if you hear a racial slur being used, don't back down. Call security.

2. The punishment should be permanent banning. Yeah, there would be cracks and so it won't be perfect. Still worth the effort.

3. A public awareness campaign would be nice.

4. The ironic thing about the defensiveness is that the denial of racism is an implicit acknowledgement of Boston's particularly awful past.

The short answer to all of the above is that sunshine really is the best disinfectant.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,724
Deep inside Muppet Labs
An honest question: what should be done at Fenway, with regards to trying to prevent these kinds of incidents, that isn't currently being done? Is this merely a matter of more security, or stiffer penalties for those caught engaging in this kind of behavior? (if someone inclined to behave in such a repugnant fashion can even be deterred from doing so), putting their considerable capital and resources behind a public information campaign? It strikes me that at a place where 3 million or so people pass through every year, and alcohol is served, it's inevitable that some morons are going to slip through the cracks. I've read a few things over the last day that seem to imply the Red Sox need to step up and do more, but I'd be interested in hearing specific ideas. As aside, the ongoing argument about whether Boston is uniquely racist is bringing out the best in almost no one. Of course the actions of a few shouldn't indict the many. Any logical adult should know that. But racism/prejudice is a sad reality of American life. Hell, of the human condition. Boston/New England is part of both. Why in gods name do some have such a hard coping with the reality that it can, and does, exist here.
What can be done is pretty much more of everything:

- Beef up security presence in the CF bleacher section, which is where the vast majority of these issues have taken place. That doesn't merely mean adding more security, but actually have them walk the aisles and stairways routinely to scan and monitor the crowd for bad behavior. I've read that the asshole who went after Jones wasn't booted out until the 7th inning. That's too late. Other fans were telling him to shut up, but he needed to be evicted the second he crossed the line from game heckling to racism.

- Make more announcements about calling the security line or texting the security line to report any problems or bad behavior. Double emphasize that any violation of the code of conduct results in immediate eviction from the park.

- In the case of any hate speech being uttered, the offender is not only evicted from the park, but immediately given a lifetime ban from the stadium. No second chances whatsoever. Just like the EPL in England.

It's tough slogging, but the Sox have to reinforce a culture of total non-acceptability for hate speech in the park. There is a tendency to avoid confrontation, which is understandable, so call security the second you hear hate speech, whether it's racial in nature or something else (God knows how often I heard idiots shout "faggot!" at Arod over the years).
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,618
+1. It is not acceptable for a white person. Ever. Even in response to a hand-written invitation, or a pained smile of tolerance from someone of color.

You can't control what other people do, but you can control yourself. It should be imprinted in your DNA by now, along with several similar tropes. If it isn't, you're not trying hard enough.

Or are simply to friggin' stupid.

The need to rehash these issues in 2017 is disheartening.

This could be split out because not really about Jones incident.

I agree with you and that's how I conduct myself. But the social norms I see in various places do not reflect what you are saying or what I do. People genuinely behave like nigga and nigger are not even related terms. I go to a gym that is quite diverse and the musical playlist is a total mind fuck for me and one other older white dude. We just look at each other like, wow. The music is selected by either a white Brazilian dude, a young white cop, or a young black journalist. They all know the songs and sing to each other as we are working out. I think one song was only N bombs (the gga version, so I guess ok?).

Oh yeah, sometimes we get Brazilian praise and worship songs thrown in. I just go with it.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

holden
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2003
12,723
MetroWest, MA
Michael Baumann from The Ringer has a couple of good observations amid the fallout:

What happened to Adam Jones, though, isn’t only a Boston problem, and singling out Boston allows 250 million or so white Americans to let themselves off the hook for behavior with which we’re all to some degree stained. By making this a Boston issue, everyone from outside the city sidesteps our own complicity in the hundreds of years of American history that led to this moment.
It speaks volumes that someone with the predilection to shout the n-word would feel safe and secure doing so in a crowded stadium, and that we woke up the next morning most concerned with either absolving the 30,000 bystanders in the park or absolving the 250 million bystanders across the country. Sometimes hate doesn’t stop when you shout, “Stop!” Imagine how it responds when you shout, “It wasn’t me!”
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,724
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Coached by one of the few black head coaches in the league at the time.
Those Celtics are an interesting case study since they were so white yet were assembled by Auerbach, who was one of the pioneers who made the league integrated in the first place given his relationship with Bill Russell. Red was the last person in the world anyone could accuse of being racist.