The Plan For the #1, er, #3 Overall Pick?

Cellar-Door

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One interesting piece about this deal.... it saves 1.4M in cap space. Meaning that the Celtics could get to Hayward's max room by stashing Yabu another year, renouncing all free agents, cutting Mickey and then trading Demetrius Jackson for nothing. Eliminates the need to move a rotation player to get Hayward.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Couple thoughts...

1) Feels more likely that Celts are actually in on a bigger fish than Butler if they do this in order to trade some of the picks. Or else they like Butler a whole lot more than I do. I agree KAT and Davis almost can't be available. So that suggests....I really don't know. Giannis ain't available. Westbrook...1% chance. However, is there a chance Houston has decided a Harden core can't win in the west---that is not inconceivable to me.

2) Fultz for 3, 18 Lakers, and a Philly 1 is a lot of value. Possible those other two picks are not high lottery, but still a lot of potential if you have questions about Fultz.

3) Fultz having his knee wrapped during that half-court shot video scares me. Call me crazy, but one does wonder if part of the concern is not his game, but his health

4) I love this year's draft and feel like Zach Collins may end up being a McHale-like stud. If the plan ends up netting him this year, I will conclude Ainge agrees (and then hope he's right!)
 

Cellar-Door

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Now that is interesting.
If the Celtics are moving the 1 and pieces and getting back Butler + a pick that would be an interesting move. Philly would have to be thrilled to get the 1 while dumping Okafor to save pick price.
 

LondonSox

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Hey guys and to think I thought this thread was largely pointless.

Embiid Simmons fultz core is ummm yeah.

All the chatter is that it's 3 and Lakers first and something else a sixers pick maybe protected.

If hinkie gets fultz for cap space and mcw and got fired.... I mean come on.

I was super sceptical but woj and Lowe with specifics says... Maybe
 

JCizzle

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If it ends up being Butler, Jackson and Philly '19?
That Philly 19 probably isn't even a lottery pick, plus Butler means you likely don't get Hayward unless the team is gutted to get salary off the books. Butler might be better than Hayward, but enough better to be worth losing assets in addition to the money?
 

PedroKsBambino

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I wish I believed we had a "add Fultz and Haywood" scenario but at this point, the Celtics probably do have a sense of it and a deal like this would mean the chances aren't at all good
 

smastroyin

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Or maybe Danny doesn't want to make the 6 for 1 swap (by renouncing everyone) to sign Hayward.

I do think Danny might be dangerously in love with Avery Bradley, though. That's the one thing that gives me pause, like Danny is ready to give Bradley and IT big deals and that's why he doesn't see room for Fultz, and he doesn't want maxing Hayward to force him to dump two of Bradley/Smart/IT
 

schillzilla

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I don't want Butler at all, that makes me feel worse. We just need to wait out GS and LBJ. It stinks, but it is what it is. I would be ecstatic if we got a Nets like haul of unprotected firsts to move down 2 spots. But to just flip that haul for Butler? Who are we kidding, that doesn't get us closer to GS or even CLE. This finals just confirmed that patience is what we need right now, rash moves are just going to end in disappointment.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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That Philly 19 probably isn't even a lottery pick, plus Butler means you likely don't get Hayward unless the team is gutted to get salary off the books. Butler might be better than Hayward, but enough better to be worth losing assets in addition to the money?
I guess there's no guarantee Hayward signs. I'd be good with Butler and a lower pick + future picks. I wouldn't be good with trading down and getting no players back.

Butler is one of the best two way players in the game and has improved every season. I don't think we should underestimate how good a player he is. I also think he'd be an excellent fit with the way this team plays.
 

Devizier

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Well, this is fucking wild.

I'll withhold judgement pending the details.

I am not a fan of Jackson; the assault stuff pisses me off and I don't want the Celtics to be anywhere near that.
 

cathat

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I don't want Butler at all, that makes me feel worse. We just need to wait out GS and LBJ. It stinks, but it is what it is. I would be ecstatic if we got a Nets like haul of unprotected firsts to move down 2 spots. But to just flip that haul for Butler? Who are we kidding, that doesn't get us closer to GS or even CLE. This finals just confirmed that patience is what we need right now, rash moves are just going to end in disappointment.
Same here. I don't even see how Hayward+Butler helps us compete against GSW. I could care less if we beat Lebron only to be swept out of our pants by GS
 

PedroKsBambino

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Well, this is fucking wild.

I'll withhold judgement pending the details.

I am not a fan of Jackson; the assault stuff pisses me off and I don't want the Celtics to be anywhere near that.
Yup, that's all where I am as well. I really wanted Celts to come out with someone who can shoot from this top pick.

Just as a thinkpiece, if you knew Griffin was going to sign would that change how you'd think about the draft, or a trade? I think that shifts their timeframe forward slightly, but not sure that would matter.
 

Luis Taint

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There is a scenerio where the Bulls lose Butler and have to take Okafor. I do that deal, just to watch Big Cat from Barstool melt down.
 

E5 Yaz

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I'm not a fan of Butler, so that part bothers me. Other than that, it's hard to form an opinion until a deal is announced and picks are made
 

JCizzle

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Yup, that's all where I am as well. I really wanted Celts to come out with someone who can shoot from this top pick.

Just as a thinkpiece, if you knew Griffin was going to sign would that change how you'd think about the draft, or a trade? I think that shifts their timeframe forward slightly, but not sure that would matter.
Agreed. It's frustrating watching Brad try (albeit generally successfully) to integrate non shooters into his offense.
 

RedOctober3829

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I believe if they add Butler they still have enough cap space to sign a near max FA. If they renounce all cap holds except for Zizic(stashing Yabu one more year) and make this trade they will have just over $48 million in which to use. Butler has a 5% trade kicker so his salary next year would be around $19.5 million. This would leave the Celtics with just under $28 million to use. The only question I have is will they have any exceptions to use? If not, then they'll have to fill out the roster with vet minimum types.
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm a big Butler fan, he's an elite defender and a borderline #1 offensive weapon who isn't afraid of crunch time, I think he and Hayward if they could clear space to make it happen is the second best 2/3 pairing in the league. HOWEVER. We still have the IT problem, adding 2 scorers makes his offense less important but doesn't solve his defense issue. We'd need to move Thomas to get a more well rounded PG. I do think a team with a good more rounded PG, Hayward, Butler, Horford, Brown, Zizic, etc could be a contender, and the ages/contracts make it extendable past the likely 2-3 year window before the Warriors have to break it up.
 

DJnVa

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Hey guys and to think I thought this thread was largely pointless.

Embiid Simmons fultz core is ummm yeah.

All the chatter is that it's 3 and Lakers first and something else a sixers pick maybe protected.

If hinkie gets fultz for cap space and mcw and got fired.... I mean come on.

I was super sceptical but woj and Lowe with specifics says... Maybe

Man, since these rumors popped up you like Fultz a lot more huh?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Apologise if i should know who Michael Pina is but here's a tweet from him saying that trade talks aren't that far along and no specific pieces have been set in place.:

 

Cellar-Door

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Apologise if i should know who Michael Pina is but here's a tweet from him saying that trade talks aren't that far along and no specific pieces have been set in place.:

He's a freelance basketball writer I think? He used to be part of truehoops on ESPN, and he gets published on BR, and maybe Fox or CBS? I can't remember.
 

smastroyin

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I really can't see how people might like Jackson as the pick nearly as much as Fultz...but don't like Butler. Butler is like the 95% percentile outcome for Jackson. Yes maybe there is a sliver of hope that Jackson figures something out and has a better peak, but it's going to take him figuring a lot of things out for him to even have a 3 year peak like Butler's last three years.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Apologise if i should know who Michael Pina is but here's a tweet from him saying that trade talks aren't that far along and no specific pieces have been set in place.:

His source is probably Erika Leigh, that person who insisted John Abraham to that Pats was a 'done deal' a couple years back even after it was announced he went elsehwere
 

dylanmarsh

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The crux of the Butler issue for me is that he's only under contract for two years (17/18,18/19). I would rather roll the dice with 5 years of a top 3 pick, gain more assets while maintaining payroll flexibility - especially if they can net a free agent without surrending assets.
 

RedOctober3829

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Snippets from the latest from Steve Bulpett

The Celtics and 76ers have been involved in substantive talks regarding a trade involving the first and third picks in next Thursday’s NBA draft, the Herald has confirmed. The story was first reported by ESPN and The Vertical.

According to Herald sources, however, the move does not appear to be imminent, and it’s quite possible nothing will be decided until perhaps Monday.

Both clubs are looking into what else Philadelphia would need to offer to move up the two positions in the draft. Per the discussions that already have taken place, it’s a given that the 76ers will have to include at least one other future first-round pick.

According to league sources, the Celts have been very willing to discuss deals for the No. 1 choice.

“If (the Celtics) can turn that into more than one player and still get a guy it wants (in this draft), I think they’d love to do that,” one NBA executive said.

While Danny Ainge may like some more than others, sources now and over the latter half of the college season say he’s been looking hardest into guards Fultz and Lonzo Ball and forwards Josh Jackson and Jayson Tatum.

It was said here since the draft lottery put the Celtics in the driver’s seat that Ainge’s chances to step on the accelerator improved greatly. The matter of whether he can get the C’s in position to compete with the league’s elite will be decided by how well he can parlay the moves that appear to be moving into greater proximity.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2017/06/celtics_76ers_discussing_potential_deal_for_no_1_pick_in_nba_draft_0
 

BigSoxFan

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The crux of the Butler issue for me is that he's only under contract for two years (17/18,18/19). I would rather roll the dice with 5 years of a top 3 pick, gain more assets while maintaining payroll flexibility - especially if they can net a free agent without surrending assets.
Not only that but he'll be 28 in a couple of months. Not ancient but I'd rather have the 19 year-old and hope he develops as expected. I'm sure Danny is fielding a flurry of offers and it probably won't heat up until draft night but this rumor has me concerned.

The only way I even entertain this is 3, Lakers 2018, and Kings 2019 with the picks having zero protections. Even then I don't love it because the Lakers could easily push their way into mid to late lottery. Kings will probably be bad in 2 years but with Brooklyn 2018 and Memphis in 2019 or 2020, we don't really need another high pick in the next couple of years.
 

DJnVa

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Kid T

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I believe if they add Butler they still have enough cap space to sign a near max FA. If they renounce all cap holds except for Zizic(stashing Yabu one more year) and make this trade they will have just over $48 million in which to use. Butler has a 5% trade kicker so his salary next year would be around $19.5 million. This would leave the Celtics with just under $28 million to use. The only question I have is will they have any exceptions to use? If not, then they'll have to fill out the roster with vet minimum types.
I don't think that accounts for the #1/#3 overall or filling up the rest of the roster with minimum salaried players. So if I understand the chart correctly, Bradley ($8.8 mil), Rozier ($2 mil), and a max contract to Hayward ($30 mil) eats up all of your cap space. In order to add both Hayward and Butler, they would have to shed Crowder along with Bradley and Rozier if they trade for the #3.

Found this (link: http://www.celticshub.com/2017/03/02/the-celtics-and-the-salary-cap-building-for-the-future/ )

 

heavyde050

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I still don't get why the Celtics would be in favor of making the Sixers better. The Sixers adding Fultz makes them better than the Celts within three to five years (assuming moderate health). I just don't get it.

The Sixers would have Futlz, Simmons, Joel, and Saric.

There next year pick wouldn't be top 3 again.

Edit: Sorry for the "hot take". Just got done driving 900 miles across the country, and I open up to this Celtics' news.
 
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DJnVa

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I still don't get why the Celtics would be in favor of making the Sixers better. The Sixers adding Fultz makes them better than the Celts within three to five years (assuming moderate health). I just don't get it.
I'd *guess*--if this is all true--that Ainge just doesn't think Fultz makes them that much better for whatever reason. That he won't work well with Simmons. Now I like Fultz A LOT, so I don't get that, so we will see.

There's gotta be other shoes to drop if this happens.

Still could be all smoke. I mean, Stevens was calling Fultz's HS guidance counselor. That's a lot of misdirection that just isn't needed if you want Jackson.
 

RedOctober3829

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I don't think that accounts for the #1/#3 overall or filling up the rest of the roster with minimum salaried players. So if I understand the chart correctly, Bradley ($8.8 mil), Rozier ($2 mil), and a max contract to Hayward ($30 mil) eats up all of your cap space. In order to add both Hayward and Butler, they would have to shed Crowder along with Bradley and Rozier if they trade for the #3.

Found this (link: http://www.celticshub.com/2017/03/02/the-celtics-and-the-salary-cap-building-for-the-future/ )

The payroll breakdown on Spotrac has Bradley and Rozier in and also adding in Zeller, Mickey, and Jackson's non-guaranteed contracts. With those counted in their cap and after renouncing all their cap holds and under the cap execptions, it has them with $49 million in luxury cap space. It didn't have the first round pick in so minus out the $5.645 for the #3 pick. That gets you down to $43.3. If you get rid of the 3 contracts that are non-guaranteed that gives you an extra $10-$11 million. Now, this would shave down the roster and the depth wouldn't be as good but you can trade for Butler and add a max guy.
 

bankshot1

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The interesting part of that story was

"The Los Angeles Lakers might be looking to trade up in the draft in order to acquire Markelle Fultz, and it might have something to do with Josh Jackson's second workout for the team."

Celts/LA in a 1-2 swap?

Does Trader Danny have the balls to even venture there, in a trade that could haunt him forever if it goes wrong?

Does LA have remotely enough to move up to the #1?

I'd need the keys to Staples Center, just to talk to those MFers for Fultz.
 

mcpickl

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The payroll breakdown on Spotrac has Bradley and Rozier in and also adding in Zeller, Mickey, and Jackson's non-guaranteed contracts. With those counted in their cap and after renouncing all their cap holds and under the cap execptions, it has them with $49 million in luxury cap space. It didn't have the first round pick in so minus out the $5.645 for the #3 pick. That gets you down to $43.3. If you get rid of the 3 contracts that are non-guaranteed that gives you an extra $10-$11 million. Now, this would shave down the roster and the depth wouldn't be as good but you can trade for Butler and add a max guy.
The luxury tax line is not the cap.

The tax line is expected to be 121M, the cap is expected at 101M.

Gotta lose another 20M
 

PedroKsBambino

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If you were Celtics I think you'd ask for Ingram; though duplicative of Brown you can sort that out later. The only other real asset is Russell, and he doesn't seem like any kind of sure thing to be a good team player.

I know some like Randle---I don't see it, at all.

And they effectively don't have any useful picks for trade purposes, with Philly owning their 1 next year and a good chance they are not lottery team (or at least risk of improving) beyond that.
 

SoxinSeattle

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I was really looking forward to the Celtics drafting Fultz #1 and rooting for him to be the next great player. Hopefully Danny can do better and realize his vision but it would be/would have been fun to root for the #1 pick.
 

DJnVa

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Is it possible this is all just to see what Philly and LA would do in a bidding war?