And you're willfully dodging the question about your comment on Eckersley's alcoholism.
David Price 2017
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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I think it more has to do with the weak/tough division Boston sports writers and especially radio guys like to pitch. Under-performance is a sign of mental weakness. Boston is tough, our fans are tough, our media is a bunch of supreme tough guys. Mostly obese, unathletic, thin-skinned, often lazily falling back on the same few narratives to explain the world, but tough as nails. When they find someone who does something like not dominate in the playoffs in a small sample size, they jump. And then when an athlete who has pride gets offended, they paint him as not only unable to handle pressure inn big games, but not tough enough to handle them!
It's a great system, it flatters the fans, it pumps up the media's own ego, and it generate non-stop content for as long as the player is around. Even if he does well, they get to talk about "has he overcome his wussiness?", "Is he no longer a wuss?"
They did the same thing with white players, like Buchholz. They couldn't accept that he was just a mediocre pitcher who was going to vary from very bad to very good over a season and from season to season. Instead, when he was good, that was his true talent, and when he was injured he was weak, and when he pitched poorly or pitched through injury he was a choker because he didn't get good results. I'm sure you can think of plenty other examples as well.
Two words: Tampa Bay (Devil) Rays.
There's history that predates Carl Crawford of their FA's coming to Boston to get paid and not living up to hopes/expectations. Or is Lugo also a racial example?
There's history that predates Carl Crawford of their FA's coming to Boston to get paid and not living up to hopes/expectations. Or is Lugo also a racial example?
First of all I don't think Price has been criticised by the Boston fan base to the degree that he seems to be implying he is. People want him to justify his enormous contract but that's not abnormal and certainly not tied to his skin colour.
John Lackey, JD Drew and Eric Gagne faced similar expectations and far more heat from the fan base IMHO than Price ever did. But it's the attitude that Price seems to display - his fortress mentality that is starting to alienate fans.
For me personally I thought that last year he displayed an admirable attitude of accountability - every time he fell short of his own expectations he said there was no excuse and he would work harder. I liked that and thought that it would bear well for his likely production going forward. This year I had a similar favourable impression of him and was eagerly anticipating his return to the rotation.
The results since he's been back are about what I was expecting: some signs of rust but enough quality that it bodes well for a strong second half. But the chip on his shoulder came as somewhat of a surprise - it seems like suddenly he feels persecuted and is responding by clamming up and shutting out the media and, by extension, the community.
This is disappointing to me and I hope it's just a blip. He should embrace the chance to be a leader on the team and in the city in my opinion. If you're paid a king's ransom to lead the team then it's more than just performance on the field that matters - you need to become part of the community. I don't think he gets that and to me that's a disappointment.
John Lackey, JD Drew and Eric Gagne faced similar expectations and far more heat from the fan base IMHO than Price ever did. But it's the attitude that Price seems to display - his fortress mentality that is starting to alienate fans.
For me personally I thought that last year he displayed an admirable attitude of accountability - every time he fell short of his own expectations he said there was no excuse and he would work harder. I liked that and thought that it would bear well for his likely production going forward. This year I had a similar favourable impression of him and was eagerly anticipating his return to the rotation.
The results since he's been back are about what I was expecting: some signs of rust but enough quality that it bodes well for a strong second half. But the chip on his shoulder came as somewhat of a surprise - it seems like suddenly he feels persecuted and is responding by clamming up and shutting out the media and, by extension, the community.
This is disappointing to me and I hope it's just a blip. He should embrace the chance to be a leader on the team and in the city in my opinion. If you're paid a king's ransom to lead the team then it's more than just performance on the field that matters - you need to become part of the community. I don't think he gets that and to me that's a disappointment.
I like Price, and I'm glad he's on the Red Sox.
Having said that, this just seems like an odd fight to choose and an odd person to choose to fight.
Having said that, this just seems like an odd fight to choose and an odd person to choose to fight.
Given how the media (Boston media specifically) treated and covered Prices rehab outings its not a surprise it's a thorny subject for him. I think he feels like e-rod is being treated unfairly since rehab outings are not all about stat lines.
Why do you think race DOES have something to do with this.
I want to see the guy succeed and don't think he's a bad person, but he's undeniably thin skinned and has picked some odd fights with the media. He's paid a king's ransom to be elite, and he hasn't been.
That's what this is about. Not race.
Yeah, I agree that the media shouldn't have dismissed ERod as being washed up and call for his immediate release after one shitty rehab start.
Oh? They didn't?
Much ado about nothing.
Pitcher #1: I hear my teammate's rehab appearance went well. He got through 3 innings without pain.
Ex-Pitcher #2: Anyone who thinks 9 hits and 3 runs in 3 innings is "good" must be smoking pot.
Pitcher #1: Fuck you.
Just drop it already.
Pitcher #1: I hear my teammate's rehab appearance went well. He got through 3 innings without pain.
Ex-Pitcher #2: Anyone who thinks 9 hits and 3 runs in 3 innings is "good" must be smoking pot.
Pitcher #1: Fuck you.
Just drop it already.
Was this what the discussion was about? Do we know?
Apologies if I missed an update on the story
Either way, Price should keep a lower profile and not pick fights with former HOFers. Fair or unfair, it's just a stupid move
This post is just as stupid as your last and this will be my last response to you as you simply aren't worth it.
Where did I rush to defend Eck? Just like you I have no idea what really happened but it certainly seems that Price is too aware of what everyone is saying about him. I did comment on your ridiculous statement about Eck being an alcoholic which you have chosen to ignore and that is probably best.
Who in the Boston media has been hard on Price? A couple of sports radio guys who everyone especially players should ignore.
I thought this thread was insane because a couple of posters were irrational in their criticism of Price. Their posts were made to seem reasonable with whatever it is you are posting about.
I'm not going to comment on the race issue you keep bringing up.
I am now officially done bothering with you.
Sorry if missed something. I read sosh on the iPhone app so can't see media stuff usually (including in this case)
This discussion has a natural home in the media board, but it belongs here too. Because in Boston, as in NY and Philadelphia, the sports media have an unlimited capacity to fuck things up when the fit is bad -- and with this player, at this time in this town the fit is bad.
Price has the classic eggshell skull. Shit that would bounce off most other players without barely registering deeply irritates him. Then he takes to Twitter, and the downward spiral begins anew.
Boston sports media are heavily invested in this shit and have been for decades. It is no longer entirely or even mainly racial, and people who claim otherwise are lazy, thoughtless or have not been paying attention. They ignore the savaging of Yaz, who virtually singlehandedly and forever turned the fortunes of the Boston Red Sox; I witnessed it, first hand, as a young kid. They forget the same goddamn nonsense with Roger Clemens two decades later -- with the esteemed Will McDonough carrying a water bucket -- and a blowtorch -- for John Harrington and Dan Duquette.
Has it had racial elements? Of course. With your 1970s Patriots, particularly at the defensive back positions, with Will McDonough this time doing the bidding of the Sullivans. More recently, with Manny Ramirez and the early morning assholes on WEEI -- and to be fair, the other sports station in town as well.
But for the most part, a huge chunk of the sports media in Boston have been on a 50+ year mission to prove they are not starfuckers. They did this to Ted fucking Williams, for god's sake. Their athletic ideal is Doug fucking Flutie. God help the guy who stands out in any respect, who calls attention to himself, who intentionally or not appears brighter than team.
And other thing, these fuckers are addicted to hapless losing. The Celtics aside, the knights of the keyboard -- then the mic -- fed on this shit for decades. That's why Bill Belichick and Tom Brady drive them crazy.
Boston has had the very best and very worst in sports journalism, but the Globe of the 70s and 80s is as dead as Ted Williams -- so the environment is now created by assholes who dominate both radio stations and guys like CHB.
This does not excuse David Price, or justify or vilify him. It explains why his time here did not begin well and seems destined to end badly.
Price has the classic eggshell skull. Shit that would bounce off most other players without barely registering deeply irritates him. Then he takes to Twitter, and the downward spiral begins anew.
Boston sports media are heavily invested in this shit and have been for decades. It is no longer entirely or even mainly racial, and people who claim otherwise are lazy, thoughtless or have not been paying attention. They ignore the savaging of Yaz, who virtually singlehandedly and forever turned the fortunes of the Boston Red Sox; I witnessed it, first hand, as a young kid. They forget the same goddamn nonsense with Roger Clemens two decades later -- with the esteemed Will McDonough carrying a water bucket -- and a blowtorch -- for John Harrington and Dan Duquette.
Has it had racial elements? Of course. With your 1970s Patriots, particularly at the defensive back positions, with Will McDonough this time doing the bidding of the Sullivans. More recently, with Manny Ramirez and the early morning assholes on WEEI -- and to be fair, the other sports station in town as well.
But for the most part, a huge chunk of the sports media in Boston have been on a 50+ year mission to prove they are not starfuckers. They did this to Ted fucking Williams, for god's sake. Their athletic ideal is Doug fucking Flutie. God help the guy who stands out in any respect, who calls attention to himself, who intentionally or not appears brighter than team.
And other thing, these fuckers are addicted to hapless losing. The Celtics aside, the knights of the keyboard -- then the mic -- fed on this shit for decades. That's why Bill Belichick and Tom Brady drive them crazy.
Boston has had the very best and very worst in sports journalism, but the Globe of the 70s and 80s is as dead as Ted Williams -- so the environment is now created by assholes who dominate both radio stations and guys like CHB.
This does not excuse David Price, or justify or vilify him. It explains why his time here did not begin well and seems destined to end badly.
This is a Price problem, and the executive council of his fan club that keeps chirping in here can stuff it.
Price is pouring gas on himself in the middle of a California wildfire. I wish he were Vanderbilt smart enough not to engage.
I don't get the defensive hate here on Eck. It implies that Price is worthy of harvesting Eck's dingleberries, he's not.
Price could have stayed in irrelevance and enjoyed the comforts of Tampa. He picked his Boston payday and is proving to not comprehend the reality he bought into.
Price is pouring gas on himself in the middle of a California wildfire. I wish he were Vanderbilt smart enough not to engage.
I don't get the defensive hate here on Eck. It implies that Price is worthy of harvesting Eck's dingleberries, he's not.
Price could have stayed in irrelevance and enjoyed the comforts of Tampa. He picked his Boston payday and is proving to not comprehend the reality he bought into.
Eh... In this case if Price is standing up for a teammate I'm all for it.... Rather have that, than a player who throws his teammates under the bus
Nothing he's done is a big deal in any way really. He chirped at an awesome announcer, who probably would have done the exact same thing when he was playing. I bet Eck and Price will likely laugh about this at some point down the line in the not too distant future. I'm sure his teammates love him for having their backs, I would. He's a great pitcher that sees himself fighting against the world, who gives a shit if he disdains the media.
This isn't 'standing up for teammates', it's standing up for nothing important in a clubhouse lacking a true leader to keep this useless petty shit under wraps.
Price needs a teammate to stand him up and tell him to grow some skin, understand he's not in Tampa anymore, invest well, pet his dog, and do his job and pitch.
And in other news, if E-Rod is the teammate implied, maybe the coaching staff shouldn't let him start a game after his knee buckled while warming up in the pen.
This is a very talented team, ready to catch the Astros. Win games, otherwise I don't care about your perceived Boston market issues.
I'm used to distractions from outside, but the internal stuff (Price) at this point he's indicated he is unaware of WTF is happening right now at the job he's being paid to do.
Why does David Price need to amplify the normal noise other winning clubhouses mitigate and move on without issue?
Save a teammate and fuck the season? That's one way to avoid another post season shitty start. Priorities!
This clubhouse needs a shut the fuck up Price and everyone else guy.
Oh, and can I get an explanation of how this is an example of not throwing a teammate under the bus?
I feel DP lurks here, so I hope he beats Houston, enjoys cowbell homecoming, and enjoy's his non-all-star break.
Eck tried to broach the subject today "can't we have a happy flight?" , he said. Remember the story Orsillo told about how he showed up Wake on the telecast after Wake served up a gopher ball? Wake gave him the stink eye in the clubhouse after, and said "that was one run, one freaking run" then they laughed about and were best buds again. Seems like there's lesson in there...
This seems as much of an overreaction as the posts it decries.
The Sox are finally hitting and have put a few games between themselves and the rest of the AL East. And yet because of one story a few days ago they are going to "fuck the season?"
DCMissle's excellent points notwithstanding, this whole Price-bashing episode vaguely smacks of racism. Or scapegoat-ism. Or something we've seen before.
I'm not into the minutiae Price's twitter habits and personal opinions, but I don't recall him doing (much less saying) anything anti-team, or anti-Boston. Yet for some reason, a minor thing (we can't even call it an incident), which may well have been smoothed over by now, has been latched onto. What has latched onto it, and Why it has been latched onto are the questions. And however you want to label it, it looks ugly. In a "gosh this guy is uppity and does not know his place" kind of way. Regardless of whether it's dressed up to be delivered by a surrogate "phantom teammate."
I can accept Price not living up to his contract may fuel some of it. But Price's work is there for all to see and/or criticize. Going beyond it to character issues is grasping for straws in a particularly something something manner.
The point is that you don't know how implicit bias works.
Do you live in 2017? The burden of proof is the other way around.
The New York Times published a long-form piece about racism in Boston sports two months ago. Reports stated Price received racial taunts at Fenway by the middle of the season. Many, many players (Adam Jones, Barry Bonds, Carl Crawford, Gary Matthews Jr., et al.) have gone on record to say the shit they hear in Boston is worse than any other city in MLB. I'm not saying any single person "is racist," but if you don't think it's a systemic factor, ask yourself if the headlines would be different if Pedroia and Jim Rice argued about Brock Holt's rehab.
You can't discuss how a Boston media and fanship pillories a star athlete of color — again, one of the very best pitchers in baseball — without including an analysis of race.
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It seems to me like there was some confirmation bias at play in this incident with DE. Price had just recently bashed the media on twitter. Then, shortly after, he seems to have initiated a heated exchange with one of the more respected and liked media members. The accounts of the incident imply that it was just short of physical or was close to becoming physical. Overall, not a good look for Price. I suspect if he pitches well, it will improve the media coverage, put him in a better mood, improve his interactions with media and eventually there will be happy feelings all around.
Oh, I most certainly do and that may be your "point", but you are too chicken shit to expound on it. Which is probably a good thing.
This is misleading. Drellich said that Price "became intense," but stated multiple times that it was not physical and he was not afraid that it was about to be physical.
"I never got the feeling that it was about to be physical, no...There was never any motion toward a physical action, no." - Evan Drellich
I disagree.
While there may be racist elements for some, I think the backlash against Price can be much more accurately explained by (1) the huge contract and related expectations, (2) his propensity from very early in his Boston career to get into mind numbing spats on twitter and with the media, (3) his negative comments about his experiences in Boston, (4) his negative comments about the fans, (5) his perception confirming piss poor outing in last year's playoffs and (6) his 7 plus ERA against the MFYs since arriving in Boston, again confirming expectations.
The sense that we're in a no win contractually with him doesn't help, either. If he pitches well enough before the opt out to be able to exit Boston and have it not hurt him financially, he will be gone. We're not going to see him choose to stay here because he likes it. And if he is unable to opt out in a financially viable way, we are stuck with him. And stuck with a contract that has a good chance of looking quite bad over the last two to four years of its duration.
All of those things annoy me to varying degrees. The sum total of them made my first reaction to the Eck thing something along the lines of "great, now he's using Eck as a means of showing how good of a teammate he is, but really this is a convenient distraction from his own mediocrity." And that's while I know his last two starts were better and while I desperately want him to be great as it will increase the chances that my favorite baseball team will prosper.
That Price is black is, no pun intended, a red herring. Consistent with DCMissile's post, Boston fans psychoanalyze and pick apart athletes regardless of race, and have been doing that for decades. That some in Boston are racist does not change that. And on the flip side, David Ortiz is one-two with Tom Brady as the favorite athlete of a huge percentage of Boston sports fans, and Mr. Ortiz is anything but white bread.
David Price's problem in Boston is that he's David Price, not that he's black.
I read DCM as acknowledging there were racial elements involved while arguing that racism isn't the driving factor of the animus towards Price. That seems right to me. Price would still be getting shit on if he was white, but his race is an aggravating factor for some predisposed to dislike him already.
I like David Price and hope he finds his secondary pitches and a cure for his past playoff ills. This team probably comes up short if he isn't an effective playoff starter.
A better question, to me, is why Cafardo thought that this was worth publishing in the first place. OK, so a current player gets in an argument about baseball with a former player. Does anyone here honestly believe that this is unusual? People argue all the time. Why should we care?
The original Dreillich incident was different, because that turned into an "I'm never talking to reporters again except when I pitch", so that's relevant. But whatever happened between Price and Eckersley is nobody's business but theirs.
The original Dreillich incident was different, because that turned into an "I'm never talking to reporters again except when I pitch", so that's relevant. But whatever happened between Price and Eckersley is nobody's business but theirs.
What follows is not a defense of anything Cafardo did. Cafardo is a twit. Period, full stop.
But David Price getting into it with Eck is newsworthy exactly because it involved someone with Price's recent track record with the media, general trend line of foolishness outside the lines and importance to the team's chances.
I'm not saying Price should be immune to legitimate criticism, nor am I saying there aren't white fans and reporters in Boston who love particular black athletes, nor I am I saying that Boston fans aren't often assholes. Those are red herrings.
Dragging up what appears to be a non-incident, making it public and flaying someone over it is the issue at hand. And yeah, it's 100% appropriate to inquire as to whether there's a racial bias in play when it results in people saying that Price needs to keep quiet and learn his place. Think about that - it's censuring someone for a private conversation.
It's been pointed out upthread, but if Pedroia had privately gotten on Eck for publicly knocking a teammate who was busting his ass rehabbing to return and help the team, would anyone even remotely suggest that Pedroia, who has not delivered prime bottom line numbers in line with expectations, needs to keep quiet and learn his place? Or would it be appropriate for a gritty vet? How then, is inappropriate for one of the Sr. pitchers on staff to do so?
And for the record, I don't even particularly like David Price.
Here, I will help, just copy and paste the following:
"I should not have said what I did about Eckersley being an alcoholic. It was absolutely a cheap-shot not just at him, but at anybody who has been affected by alcoholism. The fact that Eck fought and came out successfully on the other side of his addiction is to his credit, not a reason for derision. My bad. I apologize and retract that stupid part of my statement. Now, I am interested in discussing the role of race in the David Price saga..."
I like Price and would take another 6 years of what he delivered last season... with some post-season success thrown in.
His pre-Sox arrival starts were always worth seeking out via Extra Innings.
David knows what he's doing and he's free to let his feelings be know whenever he wants, we all are. I just can't figure out why he's doing it. What's the benefit to him, or his teammates, in the big picture? He seemingly had no issues in Tampa, Toronto or Detroit and played an important role in team success at each stop, just as he did here last season. I think we all just want that to continue.
He's a good guy, probably dealing with some stress about the long-term health of his elbow that hopefully is abating with each start.
Instead of Eck, I wish he'd have targeted Steve Lyons. That would have been be a win-win.
The big picture concern for me it that this team no longer has it's Big Papi media shield and I don't think it's a stretch to think the manager misses it too.
His pre-Sox arrival starts were always worth seeking out via Extra Innings.
David knows what he's doing and he's free to let his feelings be know whenever he wants, we all are. I just can't figure out why he's doing it. What's the benefit to him, or his teammates, in the big picture? He seemingly had no issues in Tampa, Toronto or Detroit and played an important role in team success at each stop, just as he did here last season. I think we all just want that to continue.
He's a good guy, probably dealing with some stress about the long-term health of his elbow that hopefully is abating with each start.
Instead of Eck, I wish he'd have targeted Steve Lyons. That would have been be a win-win.
The big picture concern for me it that this team no longer has it's Big Papi media shield and I don't think it's a stretch to think the manager misses it too.
Yes, Pedey would have gotten a pass. Hell, he largely got a pass this year when he oddly distanced himself from his manager and some of his teammates with his "it wasn't me" thing to Machado. Price would have been skewered for something like that, too.
But the difference is wholly down to track records and accomplishment in Boston, in my view. Pedey played on and was an important member of two WS champion teams. He won an MVP. He's won gold gloves. He is a hard nosed, grind it out player, who is always hustling. He has established those credentials over a period of years and came up in the Sox system.
That he is white is not relevant to any of that.
David Price, conversely, put up good numbers last season but numbers below his career norms, and sucked in the playoffs and against NY (which matters to me not because it's the MFYs but rather because I view it as being a proxy for future playoff performances, when the lights get brighter). He also has gotten into numerous off field silliness.
Again, I get that racists exist and that a percentage of fans DO distinguish on that basis. I just think that for the overwhelming majority, the difference in how Price and Pedrioa are perceived and covered comes down to their history in Boston, not racism in any material way.
I can get behind some of what you said, but Price isn't getting the benefit of the doubt like Pedey because of his shorter tenure with some rocky incidents under his belt along with (perceived) under performance. There just hasn't been a lengthy honeymoon period with him that would bank good will. And remember that Pedey was recently criticized quite a bit for the Orioles debacle well after the issue should have been put to bed by the media.
Sorry, I fell asleep before I could hit the CTRL button.
No one is persecuting Eck for his past alcoholism. The conversation is about bias.
It sounds like we should be pointing fingers at the media instead of the players then, because the takes on that situation were embarrassing to read. It sucks that Price yelled at Eck, but (as we all know) Eck speaks his mind so I'm sure he held his own during the exchange. Most people hate the Boston media, so it's a little weird to me to hate a player for hating the same media. As others have said, there's no evidence that he's a bad teammate or anything along those lines so I'm having a hard time understanding the basis for the hate he's getting. He's not pre-WS Lackey or anything close to it, yet the sentiments seem similar.
Then I'll be briefer. What did the fact that Eck is a recovering alcoholic have to do with anything? If it wasn't "persecuting" what bit of information was it intended to convey?
edit: Removed profanity and unnecessary personal attack
You should have stayed asleep. We'd all be better off. "Past alcoholism". It truly is about bias. You just are a bit misinformed.
Edited out uneeded snark.
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Yes, please educate me on the history of the oppression of white men who drink alcohol in the U.S.
Well, looks like my edit made it through. You are not going to answer the question and continue to dance around it. Not going to play this game any further. I'm done.
I can't wait for the 4th of July...when this topic hopefully reverts back to how David Price pitched.