2017 Patriots Defense

dcmissle

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And coming off a SB win and the offseason everyone thought we had exacerbates it.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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And coming off a SB win and the offseason everyone thought we had exacerbates it.
Hopefully, when we get those awesome youtube videos of the 2017-18 Championship New England Patriots, they will be liberally spiced with the "worst defense ever" commentary from this week!
 

eustis22

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if winston plays the first 3 qtrs like he played the last one they give up 800 yards passing.
 

Sportsbstn

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if winston plays the first 3 qtrs like he played the last one they give up 800 yards passing.
That's happens a lot in 4th quarters of games where teams are trying to come back. Trying to extrapolate the quarter to the game doesn't work.
 

DJnVa

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if winston plays the first 3 qtrs like he played the last one they give up 800 yards passing.
If Jose Altuve plays every game like he did yesterday he'll hit 486 home runs.

There's a reason Winston was able to pass more in the 4th quarter last night. I would assume 99% of the folks posting here know what it is.


I have zero confidence in this D to make a stop with the game on the line.
So you fell asleep last night or are you watching on your DVR for the first time? Jesus guys, bring SOMETHING to the table. You literally just said you have no confidence that they can do something they just did.

BB *clearly* felt better about his defense last night. If he didn't he would have gone for it on 4th and 3.
 

The Needler

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Dec 7, 2016
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So, I was stuck watching the game on a plane last night, and it was about 2 seconds of freeze for every two seconds of streaming. One of the longer freezes was when the Bucs were looking at 3rd and 2 in the third quarter, and DeSean Jackson is all alone on his side of the field with Butler, who was giving him literally a 10-yard cushion. I'm screaming that he's going to get an easy first down on the slant, and mine is no great football mind. When the picture unfroze, Jackson had picked up 41 yards. I guess my point is, too frequently this defense looks like it's not even aware of the game situation.

Hreres the play:
 

normstalls

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Interesting stat - Pats D set a record last night. Unfortunately not one they want to own.

The Patriots are first team in NFL history to allow 5 straight 300-yard passers in a single season
 

Jimbodandy

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The biggest problem that this defense has had all season was terrible communication. That has resulted in tons of big plays and boatloads of points allowed.

Despite have a short week to address this shortcoming, they basically did. They gave up 14 points.

I'm not saying that everything on defense is now running like a Swiss car or anything, bit I think that it's fair to say that OL is shooting up the big board of problems.

When your defense gives up 14, it's not the problem.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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The biggest problem that this defense has had all season was terrible communication. That has resulted in tons of big plays and boatloads of points allowed.

Despite have a short week to address this shortcoming, they basically did. They gave up 14 points.

I'm not saying that everything on defense is now running like a Swiss car or anything, bit I think that it's fair to say that OL is shooting up the big board of problems.

When your defense gives up 14, it's not the problem.
Exactly.

Also, while the total yard stats don't look great they were pretty excellent through three quarters and they were allowed over 12 drives, which is a lot. The Patriots offense didn't give this defense much help in the second half, especially in the fourth quarter when they picked 42 yards total on three drives and couldn't hold the ball.
 

DJnVa

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So, I was stuck watching the game on a plane last night, and it was about 2 seconds of freeze for every two seconds of streaming. One of the longer freezes was when the Bucs were looking at 3rd and 2 in the third quarter, and DeSean Jackson is all alone on his side of the field with Butler, who was giving him literally a 10-yard cushion. I'm screaming that he's going to get an easy first down on the slant, and mine is no great football mind. When the picture unfroze, Jackson had picked up 41 yards. I guess my point is, too frequently this defense looks like it's not even aware of the game situation.

Hreres the play:
I was thinking the same. Perhaps he was giving him a cushion because he thought that there was no way they were going to drive the field twice by keeping everything in front of them and didn't want to get burned over the top with no safety help?

That said the cushion was way too large. Jackson was able to catch without hindrance and get up to speed. Which is kinda his skill. Speed.
 

Harry Hooper

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Exactly.

Also, while the total yard stats don't look great they were pretty excellent through three quarters and they were allowed over 12 drives, which is a lot. The Patriots offense didn't give this defense much help in the second half, especially in the fourth quarter when they picked 42 yards total on three drives and couldn't hold the ball.
The stats would look even better if the Pats had challenged (and won) the catch by Jackson deep down the right sideline at 2:30 remaining in the 4th. This was the play immediately following the Pats' successful challenge. From the sideline camera replay it sure looked like the ball bobbled loose when Jackson hit the turf. The official NFL.com replay conveniently fades to black while Jackson is still standing up.
 

tims4wins

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The stats would also look better if they had called the grounding on Winston and given the ball back to the offense instead of Tampa driving like 80 more yards or whatever it was that drive.

Also, I noticed that DH played more in the middle of the field last night - would be interesting to see how many snaps he was in the middle vs. on the edge. May not be a coincidence that the D played better with him playing more in the middle.
 

bankshot1

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The biggest problem that this defense has had all season was terrible communication. That has resulted in tons of big plays and boatloads of points allowed.

Despite have a short week to address this shortcoming, they basically did. They gave up 14 points.

I'm not saying that everything on defense is now running like a Swiss car or anything, bit I think that it's fair to say that OL is shooting up the big board of problems.

When your defense gives up 14, it's not the problem.
I might have gone with "Swiss watch", there but I guess a Swiss car is better than Swiss cheese when it comes to analogies to the Pat's defense.

I think facing an erratic QB along with more man to man and solid safety play went a long way in a short week.

BB and Patricia now got some tough work to do to figure out what to do against better QBs.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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So, I was stuck watching the game on a plane last night, and it was about 2 seconds of freeze for every two seconds of streaming. One of the longer freezes was when the Bucs were looking at 3rd and 2 in the third quarter, and DeSean Jackson is all alone on his side of the field with Butler, who was giving him literally a 10-yard cushion. I'm screaming that he's going to get an easy first down on the slant, and mine is no great football mind. When the picture unfroze, Jackson had picked up 41 yards. I guess my point is, too frequently this defense looks like it's not even aware of the game situation.

Hreres the play:
This was probably the biggest breakdown of the game so I don't think its fair to say that its indicative of the defense frequently looking like they were unaware of the game situation (at least in this game).

I'm not sure what went wrong here. With the trips formation to the defensive left, the single high safety is probably shaded in that direction and you can see why they might not want Butler jamming at the line. But that much cushion still doesn't make a lot of sense to me given that the quick out to the sticks at the sideline was there all day too. I think its also possible that Van Noy was supposed to drop into the zone where Jackson ran in order to cut off the slant and he messed up the assignment (he sort of confusedly ambles toward the line, not really rushing, then makes a hopeless attempt to bat down the pass).
 

accidentalsuccess

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Jul 15, 2005
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The biggest problem that this defense has had all season was terrible communication. That has resulted in tons of big plays and boatloads of points allowed.

Despite have a short week to address this shortcoming, they basically did. They gave up 14 points.

I'm not saying that everything on defense is now running like a Swiss car or anything, bit I think that it's fair to say that OL is shooting up the big board of problems.

When your defense gives up 14, it's not the problem.
It looks to me like the lack of communication is leading to a lack of confidence and guys either trying to do too much or hesitating a step even when they are doing their job. In the NFL that'll make you look pretty bad, especially with how much the pats change focus from week to week. Hopefully this game will help them gel and gain some confidence so they can just diagnose plays and react, rather than playing like they have.
 

queenb

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Film breakdown of the Pats' defensive woes. Maybe not a whole lot that's new, but an interesting overview. This guy blames the run defense - especially on first down - and of course communication issues in the secondary. Mentions that the blown assignment against the Chiefs on the 75-yard TD to Tyreek Hill was on McCourty, not Gilmore.

 

Ralphwiggum

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Yeesh, that should be required viewing for anyone trying to claim that the defense was OK and/or improved on Sunday because it only gave up 17 points.
 

Stitch01

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Bedard supports his conclusion and puts the blame squarely on the secondary. Grades the other units pretty well, particularly the DL and Malcolm Brown. Bademosi got 73 snaps (videos show him giving lots of cushion) and Richards 35, so that probably didnt help Sunday.

The problem from the video breakdowns appear to be largely guys not doing their jobs or doing the wrong thing because they dont trust their teammate to do the right thing (i.e. the Kearse play where Butler stays on the guy running deep down the middle rather than handing him off to Harmon)

Id still claim the defense was OK/improved Sunday vs. the the first month. Bedard's point that several drives ended on Jets unforced errors is true, but the Pats have had bad defenses that relied on that for success throughout their run. Bad for sure, but still better than 70 yard walk in touchdowns.

They better put up 35 on offense this week though.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Based on Bedard's breakdown it's pretty clear that the Jets left a ton of plays out there because they are the Jets and Josh McCown is Josh McCown. Yet he still threw for 350 yards and were a fluky TD reversal away from putting up 24 points with no skill position players that really scare you. The number of wide open guys that McCown failed to find is pretty alarming. Fine line, maybe, but it sure seemed like just a bad offense failing to take advantage of a porous and mistake prone defense rather than your typical Pats "bend not break" philosophy.
 

reggiecleveland

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Sigh
Gordo's injury,
The Yankees comeback/Astros choking
Winter is Coming (Like 1% of you understand what that means to me)

I was hoping for something to be optimistic about.
 

dcmissle

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Dead last over at Football Outsiders thru 6 weeks. 32 overall. 30th against the pass: 23rd against the run.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

Can we get all those number around 20 please? Is that too much to ask? If so, why?

Not cumulatively, obviously. Just from this point forward.
 

BaseballJones

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Defense by the numbers:

First 4 games (3 home, 1 road):
- 32.0 pts/g
- 456.8 yds/g
- 5 turnovers (1.3/g)

Last 3 games (1 home, 2 road):
- 12.7 pts/g
- 386.7 yds/g
- 3 turnovers (1.0/g)

Drives/Results:
Game 1 - KC
- 14 drives
- 6 TD (42.9%)
- 0 FG (0.0%) - 42.9% scoring drives
- 6 punts (42.9%)
- 1 turnover (7.1%)
- 0 missed FG
- 1 downs/half/game (7.1%)

Game 2 - NO
- 10 drives
- 2 TD (20.0%)
- 2 FG (20.0%) - 40.0% scoring drives
- 3 punts (30.0%)
- 0 turnovers
- 1 missed FG (10.0%)
- 2 downs/half/game (20.0%)

Game 3 - Houston
- 12 drives
- 2 TD (16.7%)
- 4 FG (33.3%) - 50% scoring drives
- 4 punts (33.3%)
- 2 turnovers (16.7%)
- 0 missed FG
- 0 downs/half/game

Game 4 - Carolina
- 9 drives
- 4 TD (44.4%)
- 2 FG (22.2%) - 66.7% scoring drives
- 1 punt (11.1%)
- 2 turnovers (22.2%)
- 0 missed FG
- 0 downs/half/game

Game 5 - TB
- 12 drives
- 2 TD (16.7%)
- 0 FG (0.0%) - 16.7% scoring drives
- 6 punts (50.0%)
- 0 turnovers
- 3 missed FG (25.0%)
- 1 downs/half/game (8.3%)

Game 6 - NYJ
- 12 drives
- 2 TD (16.7%)
- 1 FG (8.3%) - 25.0% scoring drives
- 4 punts (33.3%)
- 3 turnovers (25.0%)
- 2 downs/half/game (16.7%)

Game 7 - Atlanta
- 9 drives
- 1 TD (11.0%)
- 0 FG (0.0%) - 11.0% scoring drives
- 2 punts (22.2%)
- 0 turnovers
- 2 missed FG (22.2%)
- 3 downs/half/game (33.3%)

In the first four games:
- Opponents had 45 drives
- Opponents scored TD on 14 drives (31.1%)
- Opponents scored FG on 8 drives (17.8%)
- Opponents scored points on 22 drives (48.9%)

In the last three games:
- Opponents had 33 drives
- Opponents scored TD on 5 drives (15.2%)
- Opponents scored FG on 1 drive (3.0%)
- Opponents scored points on 6 drives (18.2%)

Another way to look at it....Here's their opponents, their points allowed, relative to those opponents' scoring average points scored against non-Patriots' opponents:

First four weeks
- KC: 42 vs NE, 27.5 vs others (+14.5 against NE)
- NO: 20 vs NE, 30.2 vs others (-20.2 against NE)
- Hou: 33 vs NE, 28.8 vs others (+4.2 against NE)
- Car: 33 vs NE, 16.3 vs others (+16.7 against NE)
- AVG: 32.0 vs NE, 25.7 vs others (+6.3 against NE)

Last three weeks
- TB: 14 vs NE, 26.2 vs others (-12.2 against NE)
- NYJ: 17 vs NE, 20.0 vs others (-3.0 against NE)
- Atl: 7 vs NE, 24.2 vs others (-17.2 against NE)
- AVG: 12.7 vs NE, 23.5 vs others (-10.8 against NE)

So yeah, the defense is playing MUCH MUCH MUCH better the last three weeks.
 

Van Everyman

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I joked in the gamethread that perhaps Belichick threw an iron at Gilmore's head in practice a few weeks ago. But we shouldn't forget that Gilmore seemed to have been effectively benched at the start of the second half of the Panthers (Texans?) game until Rowe reinjured his groin a few plays in. My guess is that Bademosi wasn't ready at that point. But if I had to guess, even when Gilmore is healthy again he won't be one of the starting guys – not at first anyway.
 

ifmanis5

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I think less Roberts was also a good thing. Possibly also Rowe.
Hope Hightower is okay to return this Sunday or at least after the Bye.
 

Stitch01

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Paychecks won't factor in to Gilmore getting reps once healthy. He's going to have to earn them.
It won't in the sense they won't just keep throwing him out there is he keeps playing terrible or isnt being coachable just because he has a big contract. But the paycheck and free agency pursuit are indicative of what the team thinks of Gilmore's talent level. So I think he's gonna be out there the bulk of the time when he gets healthy. At least initially, I dont think they are gonna be to the point where he's losing snaps to Bademosi.
 

BaseballJones

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Defense by the numbers:

First 4 games (3 home, 1 road):
- 32.0 pts/g
- 456.8 yds/g
- 5 turnovers (1.3/g)

Last 3 games (1 home, 2 road):
- 12.7 pts/g
- 386.7 yds/g
- 3 turnovers (1.0/g)

Drives/Results:
Game 1 - KC
- 14 drives
- 6 TD (42.9%)
- 0 FG (0.0%) - 42.9% scoring drives
- 6 punts (42.9%)
- 1 turnover (7.1%)
- 0 missed FG
- 1 downs/half/game (7.1%)

Game 2 - NO
- 10 drives
- 2 TD (20.0%)
- 2 FG (20.0%) - 40.0% scoring drives
- 3 punts (30.0%)
- 0 turnovers
- 1 missed FG (10.0%)
- 2 downs/half/game (20.0%)

Game 3 - Houston
- 12 drives
- 2 TD (16.7%)
- 4 FG (33.3%) - 50% scoring drives
- 4 punts (33.3%)
- 2 turnovers (16.7%)
- 0 missed FG
- 0 downs/half/game

Game 4 - Carolina
- 9 drives
- 4 TD (44.4%)
- 2 FG (22.2%) - 66.7% scoring drives
- 1 punt (11.1%)
- 2 turnovers (22.2%)
- 0 missed FG
- 0 downs/half/game

Game 5 - TB
- 12 drives
- 2 TD (16.7%)
- 0 FG (0.0%) - 16.7% scoring drives
- 6 punts (50.0%)
- 0 turnovers
- 3 missed FG (25.0%)
- 1 downs/half/game (8.3%)

Game 6 - NYJ
- 12 drives
- 2 TD (16.7%)
- 1 FG (8.3%) - 25.0% scoring drives
- 4 punts (33.3%)
- 3 turnovers (25.0%)
- 2 downs/half/game (16.7%)

Game 7 - Atlanta
- 9 drives
- 1 TD (11.0%)
- 0 FG (0.0%) - 11.0% scoring drives
- 2 punts (22.2%)
- 0 turnovers
- 2 missed FG (22.2%)
- 3 downs/half/game (33.3%)

In the first four games:
- Opponents had 45 drives
- Opponents scored TD on 14 drives (31.1%)
- Opponents scored FG on 8 drives (17.8%)
- Opponents scored points on 22 drives (48.9%)

In the last three games:
- Opponents had 33 drives
- Opponents scored TD on 5 drives (15.2%)
- Opponents scored FG on 1 drive (3.0%)
- Opponents scored points on 6 drives (18.2%)

Another way to look at it....Here's their opponents, their points allowed, relative to those opponents' scoring average points scored against non-Patriots' opponents:

First four weeks
- KC: 42 vs NE, 27.5 vs others (+14.5 against NE)
- NO: 20 vs NE, 30.2 vs others (-20.2 against NE)
- Hou: 33 vs NE, 28.8 vs others (+4.2 against NE)
- Car: 33 vs NE, 16.3 vs others (+16.7 against NE)
- AVG: 32.0 vs NE, 25.7 vs others (+6.3 against NE)

Last three weeks
- TB: 14 vs NE, 26.2 vs others (-12.2 against NE)
- NYJ: 17 vs NE, 20.0 vs others (-3.0 against NE)
- Atl: 7 vs NE, 24.2 vs others (-17.2 against NE)
- AVG: 12.7 vs NE, 23.5 vs others (-10.8 against NE)

So yeah, the defense is playing MUCH MUCH MUCH better the last three weeks.
To update this...

Game 8 - LA Chargers
- 10 drives
- 2 TD (20.0%)
- 0 FG (0.0%) - 20.0% scoring drives
- 5 punt (50.0%)
- 1 turnovers (10.0%)
- 1 missed FG
- 1 downs/half/game

In the first four games:
- Opponents had 45 drives
- Opponents scored TD on 14 drives (31.1%)
- Opponents scored FG on 8 drives (17.8%)
- Opponents scored points on 22 drives (48.9%)

In the last four games:
- Opponents had 43 drives
- Opponents scored TD on 7 drives (16.3%)
- Opponents scored FG on 1 drive (2.3%)
- Opponents scored points on 8 drives (18.6%)

First four weeks
- KC: 42 vs NE, 27.5 vs others (+14.5 against NE)
- NO: 20 vs NE, 30.2 vs others (-20.2 against NE)
- Hou: 33 vs NE, 28.8 vs others (+4.2 against NE)
- Car: 33 vs NE, 16.3 vs others (+16.7 against NE)
- AVG: 32.0 vs NE, 25.7 vs others (+6.3 against NE)

Last four weeks
- TB: 14 vs NE, 26.2 vs others (-12.2 against NE)
- NYJ: 17 vs NE, 20.0 vs others (-3.0 against NE)
- Atl: 7 vs NE, 24.2 vs others (-17.2 against NE)
- LAC: 13 vs NE, 19.7 vs others (-6.7 against NE)
- AVG: 12.8 vs NE, 22.5 vs others (-9.7 against NE)
 

Stitch01

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This week was more opposing coach being a dope then missed fg luck, but yeah. I’ll take the good fortune!
 

RedOctober3829

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I don't care how it happens so holding the last 4 opponents under 20 points is a great sign. Stop the big plays and magically this defense starts holding teams down to point totals similar to typical BB defenses.
 

Super Nomario

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I don't care how it happens so holding the last 4 opponents under 20 points is a great sign. Stop the big plays and magically this defense starts holding teams down to point totals similar to typical BB defenses.
That's not really what happened today though, right? LA's two TD drives were two plays and three plays. They allowed the big play, they just played well otherwise.
 

RedOctober3829

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That's not really what happened today though, right? LA's two TD drives were two plays and three plays. They allowed the big play, they just played well otherwise.
87 yard TD aside, they played very well on defense today. My comment was an overall assessment of the last 4 weeks versus the first 4. If they can eliminate the "big play" and make the opposing offense put together sustained drives they will be doing their job.

The 2nd drive was aided by a 30 yard DPI on Bademosi but if you want to call the TD pass a big play I'll give you that.
 

BaseballJones

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Updating this...

First 4 games (3 home, 1 road):
- 32.0 pts/g
- 456.8 yds/g
- 5 turnovers (1.3/g)

Last 5 games (2 home, 3 road):
- 13.4 pts/g
- 369.6 yds/t
- 6 turnovers (1.2/g)

I don't really know what they've done differently, scheme-wise. I know Hightower is out, and Harris seemed to do just fine. Gilmore played really well last night. Butler gave up a lot to Sanders but so many of those catches, Butler was RIGHT THERE, so credit to Brock and Sanders on those. Whatever they're doing differently, it's working, because the defense has been fantastic any way you slice it over the past 5 games.

Now that the offense is clicking again, this team is going to be very very hard to beat.
 

tims4wins

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Quietly they are now in the top half of the league in terms of points allowed... wouldn't be surprised at all to see them top 10 by season's end, if not higher.
 

Van Everyman

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This has sort of the same weird feeling as 2014’s OL clusterfuck in the first four games where the play was so bad people began to question the ability of the entire unit. Then, on a dime, their play improved as did the fortunes of the play on that side of the ball and the team in general.

Hopefully this story ends the same way.
 

ifmanis5

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Insanely great job by the coaches to get this unit, which looked like a total disaster, into something that is actually decent. Who needs linebackers?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Points scored against seems to me to be a total team stat at least in part. It's definitely complimentary to how the offense is playing and how special teams are doing with time of possession and field position being very important. When the offense is clicking you force their offense to go away from game script and you give them fewer opportunities. Force them to go on fourth down, funnel them into more time consuming drives by defending over the top and giving them short in bounds stuff. Until the last 20 seconds, Patriots had one punt and Oakland had only 8 drives. It kind of all goes together.

Plus, not committing penalties on offense or defense is huge.
 

Van Everyman

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Who needs linebackers?
Mentioned this in the game thread, but when they showed the starting lineups on CBS yesterday, they had 5 DBs (DMC, Chung, Harmon, Butler, Gilmore) and only two LBs (Van Noy and I don't even remember who).

I know the starting lineups the networks use is generally kind of meaningless and not connected to who's actually playing, but that was the first time I've ever noticed anything other than a 4-3 or 3-4.