Tennis 2018

AMS25

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 29, 2008
3,121
Holland on the Plains
Great match between two very easy to root for women. I hope Halep gets her title soon.

Woz is just one of the most likeable and loved athletes of her generation. So very happy for her. Just 2 brilliant points to end the match
Watching this match at 2:30 am made me grateful for insomnia for the first time in my life. Happy for Woz.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,714
Fell asleep before the end last night, so tonight I took a nap before to help. Not sure who I'm rooting for yet, maybe Cilic.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,714
That first set lasted about 25 minutes, Chung's performance in the semi looking slightly better in retrospect.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,714
Cilic fights off break points all second set, takes it to a tiebreak, and plays a fantastic point late in the tiebreak to get the advantage, then closes it out 7-5. First set Fed has lost all tournament, now maybe we’ve got a match.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,714
Really up and down match, Fed won the third set easily and was up a break at 3-2 in the 4th, then Cilic came back with four straight games to take the set. 5th set time!
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,714
First three games of the 5th have all gone to deuce, Fed has won them all. 3-0, one break up.
 

streeter88

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 2, 2006
1,807
Melbourne, Australia
Great match. Well done by Federer to withstand Cilic onslaught. The quick trip to the locker room between the fourth and fifth sets worked a treat to change the momentum of the match. Fed's serve came back, and Cilic's accuracy deserted him.

Another shitty hot night too. Though neither really looked bothered by the heat. Well done to both on a hard fought match.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,714
Whoa, Fed crying up a storm out of happiness in the trophy ceremony. 20!!
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,848
NYC
Unbelievable. 30 career slam finals, 20 wins (and counting???).

The last three at age 35-36, after not winning one for five years.

Dammit, I wish I had set my alarm and watched! To the highlights...
 

BigMike

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 26, 2000
23,244
Unbelievable. 30 career slam finals, 20 wins (and counting???).

The last three at age 35-36, after not winning one for five years.

Dammit, I wish I had set my alarm and watched! To the highlights...
It is on now, but early in the 3rd set.

I woke up just in time to see the last 2 points of the game, wasn't really able to stay up for the post match celebration I will catch that now
 

Matty005

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 28, 2005
925
Arlington, MA
Great match. Well done by Federer to withstand Cilic onslaught. The quick trip to the locker room between the fourth and fifth sets worked a treat to change the momentum of the match. Fed's serve came back, and Cilic's accuracy deserted him.

Another shitty hot night too. Though neither really looked bothered by the heat. Well done to both on a hard fought match.
The roof was closed for the entire match. I know it was still hot, but that had to help a lot.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
If anyone's interested in watching the full match (either men's or women's finals), I downloaded them to watch on the bus yesterday and would be happy to provide.
 

BigMike

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 26, 2000
23,244
Roger Federer will be the oldest #1 ranked player in history when the new rankings come out Monday. He return to #1 more than 5 years and 9 months after losing the top spot

Apparently this really matters to him , as he took a wildcard into an event i. Rotterdam to get a chance at picking up the points he needed
 

Sportsbstn

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 8, 2004
8,794
It is an amazing accomplishment for Roger. It is also a testament to his fitness, as sadly his top 2 rivals, Nadal and Djokovic have crumbled away due to repeated injuries.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
Rafael Nadal ended the 2017 season ranked #1, with two grand slam wins (RG & USO). He's certainly more selective about his tournaments in his old age, but has bounced back incredibly from his 2014-2016 injury-induced lull. I wouldn't say he's "crumbled away" at all. Federer has gone out and taken it from him, but that's just the latest chapter in their rivalry.

Djokovic hasn't advanced past the QFs in a slam since 2016, missed last year's US Open and the rest of the season, but was shaky even in his wins in Melbourne last month. He's gone from holding all 4 grand slam titles at once, after RG 2016, to only making one final since, and missing large chunks of time to injury. I think you've got a case there that his once-legendary fitness and health has crumbled away a bit.

Matches Played, 2014 - 2015 - 2016 - 2017
Federer: 85 - 74 - 28 - 57
Nadal: 59 - 81 - 53 - 78
Djokovic: 69 - 88 - 74 - 40
Murray: 79 - 85 - 87 - 35

Tournaments Played, 2014 - 15 - 16 - 17
Federer: 17 - 17 - 7 - 12
Nadal: 15 - 23 - 16 - 18
Djokovic: 15 - 16 - 16 - 10
Murray: 21 - 18 - 17 - 11

Frankly, you could argue Nadal has been the healthiest of the big four.
 

Sportsbstn

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 8, 2004
8,794
I would agree that crumbled was too strong a word for Rafa. When his feet, leg and knees were healthy he has had his way with Roger the vast majority of their matches. He was 23-10 against roger up to his leg injury in 2014. Court speed has always been Nadal’s biggest asset and it’s clearly diminished due to injury. He is great enough to still win, but Roger didn’t just take the last 5 matches from him, Nadal’s numerous lower body issues have been a big factor
 
Last edited:

semsox

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 14, 2004
1,742
Charlottesville
I would agree that crumbled was too strong a word for Rafa. When his feet, leg and knees were healthy he has had his way with Roger the vast majority of their matches. He was 23-10 against roger up to his leg injury in 2014. Court speed has always been Nadal’s biggest asset and it’s clearly diminished due to injury. He is great enough to still win, but Roger didn’t just take the last 5 matches from him, Nadal’s numerous lower body issues have been a big factor
Not sure I agree with this. Nadal was 23-10 against Federer, with 15 of those matches coming on clay. Ironically, court speed has been Nadal's biggest asset, but it's the actual court speed, where the very slow clay better suits his style than Federer's. I think blaming the drop off since 2014 on injuries (which they've both had) is not indicative of how these more recent matches have been played. I don't know how one could have watched last year's AO final for example, and say Roger didn't take it from Nadal.

The most insane part about Federer regaining #1 is that he did it playing only 12 tournaments last year, skipping several 1000 events and even a major.
 

jsinger121

@jsinger121
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
17,676
Watch Rafa come back and win Roland Garros followed by a Federer win at Wimbledon and then the US Open is anyone's game
 

Sportsbstn

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 8, 2004
8,794
Not sure I agree with this. Nadal was 23-10 against Federer, with 15 of those matches coming on clay. Ironically, court speed has been Nadal's biggest asset, but it's the actual court speed, where the very slow clay better suits his style than Federer's. I think blaming the drop off since 2014 on injuries (which they've both had) is not indicative of how these more recent matches have been played. I don't know how one could have watched last year's AO final for example, and say Roger didn't take it from.
Last year’s Aussie was one of the very few matches that has been competitive between these 2 in many years. Nadal before hurting himself at the Aussie open in 2014, wiped out Federer in straight sets in that tournament. Furthermore, Nadal won the last 7 meetings up to the 14 Aussie and 6 of those 7 were on hard surface. Furthermore in 5 of the 6 hardcourt meetings, Nadal won in straights. Nadal needed 3 months off in 14 and really played poorly (for his standards) in much of 2015). Federer didn’t take any time off.

Yes it is the court speed but quite clearly Nadal adapted his game and using his speed was his best weapon. Of Nadal’s first 26 titles, 21 came on clay. Court speed on clay is a big factor but the other is how the ball skids and bounces and another Nadal weapon has always been been the spin he can put on his hits.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
Serena Williams has returned to the court at Indian Wells this week, and after some tough early-round matches, will face none other than #8 seed Venus in the 3rd round. Naturally, that'll be on at prime time - 10pm ET tonight. Upon being asked, Serena said she would "rather play anyone else in the draw - literally, anyone." And she clearly meant it: Venus, of course, had her best year in a decade in 2017, making the AO finals, the Wimbledon finals and the USO semis, and was in the running for the #1 ranking for a while. You can bet she'll be making Serena make balanced shots on the run and making the most of her net-play advantage. Serena's serve, while still formidable, doesn't appear to have full power or consistency yet. This will probably be the first match between the two of them in a long time that's truly a fair fight, and I expect Venus to take it in straight sets.
 
Day 1 of the French Open yesterday really demonstrated the general parity - and/or general chokeability - of pretty much everyone in women's tennis. Everyone from the defending champion to Venus Williams is already out, and unless Serena quickly finds her form, I'm guessing this tournament will be a test of nerve more than a test of ability. So not much different than most WTA events these days, really.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
Fun fact: nobody outside the Big Four has been ranked #1 since February 2004 (Roddick), and nobody outside the Big Four has even been #2 since July 2005 (Hewitt).

Well, Sascha Zverev can become #2 at the end of the french open if Nadal does not reach the Final. It would have happened last week had Nadal not had an absolutely insane 3rd-set rally to beat him in the finals of Rome. Nadal also needs to win the tournament to not lose his #1 ranking to Federer.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
Serena was not at her best yesterday morning, lots of uncharacteristically poor errors and didn't have her best court movement, nor her best serve. She also seemed to lack some of the muscle tone that gave her some of her calling-card power, just was 10mph slower on a lot of groundstrokes and first serves. She did have good net play, good overheads, good cross-court precision, good deception on the serve. She might survive deep into this tournament (her next opponent, Barty, is another journeyman lamb to the slaughter), but there are enough legit names playing well in the draw that she's going to get overwhelmed at some point.

Which is fine. I mostly just want to see her get her game back into shape. I just think based on what I saw that her problems are of the longer-term variety (weight training, sprint speed, some of the muscle-memory for footwork), rather than something where she needs to just get her mental game right.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,714
She might survive deep into this tournament (her next opponent, Barty, is another journeyman lamb to the slaughter)
Barty is the #17 seed, although I'm not exactly disagreeing with you. The women's game seems remarkably unexceptional right now, pretty curious who is actually going to be left at the end of this.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
Among the usual suspects, I'd bet on Halep. Her defensive game fits clay very well, she has wrecked all but Svitolina and Pliskova during clay season (and Pliskova she beat decisively in her run to the AO final), and having just watched her match against Riske, she looks dialed in out there, first-set missteps notwithstanding.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
Women update:

- Petra Kvitova (somehow the #8 seed after all she went through last year) and Sloane Stephens (#10) play shortly at 1pm ET
- Into the R16 are Keys (over Naomi Osaka of "Japan") and Wozniacki (who has looked fantastic in 3 matches)
- Match of the day tomorrow is probably Kerber-Bertens, two very contrasting styles both of whom are playing well. Serena plays the unlucky #11 Julia Gorges in the morning, who probably has a puncher's chance.

Men update:

- Djokovic is #20 and into the R16, along with #7 Thiem and #19 Nishikori; Dimitrov, Querrey and Sock were upset
- Nadal had to play a tiebreak the other day. Still hasn't dropped a set. He plays the 3R tomorrow.
- Steve Johnson gets #3 Cilic tomorrow, and #9 Isner gets Herbert (and likely Delpo if he wins). They're the only Americans in the 3rd Round.
 

Schnerres

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2009
1,554
Germany
Why do you see Serena as the favorite and Görges as the unlucky outsider? I haven´t seen her play after coming back, but the results aren´t that dominating as they were before. And Görges is in good shape - which will probably bring a clear two-set win for Serena now ...

Alex Zverev (the good one, "Mischa") played another five-setter. It was the only match I saw, yet. He played bosnian Dzumhur, which (I have to admit) I haven´t seen before. The small guy played drop-shot after drop-shot and played a creative tennis while dominating in longer rallies. Zverev wasn´t that much into the game it seemed (I mean he has a great record even on clay this year, but I think he never made it past the 3rd round in a GS...) and it was full of superb points and unforced errors as well.
Many breaks and re-breaks. Zverev got his stuff together late, it seemed (seems to be in superb physical shape), hit some nice shots and made big points (twice came back from 0-40). But he is so annoying. He comes back to make it deuce in big games and he parties with the crowd as if he had just won the 4th set. He should concentrate on holding his serve (he luckily did). I mean, so far, he has done nothing on the big stage and he seems to be so weak on the mental side of the game, not focusing in the right situations.

He will probably play russian Khachanov (leads Pouille 2-0 sets), which could be an easier draw than the next possible opponent: winner of Nishikori vs Thiem.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
Serena's B- game is good enough to beat Gorges. Her present ranking is driven by # of tournaments played, by Elo she's a lot lower, and not that great on clay. She's a career journeywoman, 29 years old having spent the last decade hovering around the #20-25 ranking when healthy. She was bounced in the first round last year. More importantly, Serena's serve had a big improvement against Barty.

I'm on record saying I don't think Serena will win this thing, but I don't think it's JG who does the trick. I'm not saying she couldn't manage it, but I'd be very surprised.

The two haven't played each other in singles since 2011, btw.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,848
NYC
Rafa steamrolling towards his eleventh Roland Garros after today's straight sets snoozer over Gasquet (6-3, 6-2, 6-2). He turns 32 tomorrow.

 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
Why do you see Serena as the favorite and Görges as the unlucky outsider? I haven´t seen her play after coming back, but the results aren´t that dominating as they were before. And Görges is in good shape - which will probably bring a clear two-set win for Serena now ...
Highlights:

 

Schnerres

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2009
1,554
Germany
Highlights:
I saw parts of the match while working. I don´t know if it is a testament to her being one of the best tennis players ever or if it means the rest of the women is just a weak field, that she just can come back in a overaged, out-of-shape form (she moved bad on several points) and just beat a Top20 player just like that on her big shots. She will lose games in matches and can´t overpower opponents like before (a 6-1, 6-1 vs. those types of players seems hard to achieve). But I think it´s gonna be interesting to see how far she goes. Next up is Sharapova (h-2-h is 19-2 Serena, 18-0 winning streak with only 3 sets lost and 3 tie-breaks).

Am I the only one who thinks Serena´s outfit is very unflattering?

Zverev now working on another 5-setter vs. Khachanov (4-6, 7-6, 2-6, 5-3 for Zverev and serving for the 5th set).
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
61,996
New York City
I saw parts of the match while working. I don´t know if it is a testament to her being one of the best tennis players ever or if it means the rest of the women is just a weak field, that she just can come back in a overaged, out-of-shape form (she moved bad on several points) and just beat a Top20 player just like that on her big shots. She will lose games in matches and can´t overpower opponents like before (a 6-1, 6-1 vs. those types of players seems hard to achieve). But I think it´s gonna be interesting to see how far she goes. Next up is Sharapova (h-2-h is 19-2 Serena, 18-0 winning streak with only 3 sets lost and 3 tie-breaks).

Am I the only one who thinks Serena´s outfit is very unflattering?

Zverev now working on another 5-setter vs. Khachanov (4-6, 7-6, 2-6, 5-3 for Zverev and serving for the 5th set).
It's a terrible outfit but I think it's designed to be terrible and get people talking.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
I saw parts of the match while working. I don´t know if it is a testament to her being one of the best tennis players ever or if it means the rest of the women is just a weak field, that she just can come back in a overaged, out-of-shape form (she moved bad on several points) and just beat a Top20 player just like that on her big shots. She will lose games in matches and can´t overpower opponents like before (a 6-1, 6-1 vs. those types of players seems hard to achieve). But I think it´s gonna be interesting to see how far she goes. Next up is Sharapova (h-2-h is 19-2 Serena, 18-0 winning streak with only 3 sets lost and 3 tie-breaks).

Am I the only one who thinks Serena´s outfit is very unflattering?

Zverev now working on another 5-setter vs. Khachanov (4-6, 7-6, 2-6, 5-3 for Zverev and serving for the 5th set).
No comment on Serena's outfit. I'm really not in a position to sit in judgment about the sartorial choices of a woman who is, no matter what I say, a fashion icon, and with a very different body type than I'm familiar with.

As to the match, there are a few relevant hallmarks of Serena's game that I've seen throughout the years:

- She can show up to a grand slam tournament without much live game experience and play herself into shape, mentally, over the course of the tournament. We're seeing some of that, shaking off the rust a bit.
- Her peak abilities on most skills on the skills spider chart are so high that she doesn't need very many of them to rise to full quality in order to blow away all but the top players on the tour. So if parts of her game come back faster than others, that's enough for her.

I don't think she blew away Gorges (who did break back once in the second set), but both her serve and, importantly on clay, her ability to read spin reliably, took a big jump from her first two matches at RG. Take a look at the points at 5'05" and the one right after it, reading first the slice then the topspin so well that she could set her feet and deliver winners. On clay, that matters way more than it usually does.

I'll agree that she's not moving with peak mobility, but I was more concerned about bad footwork on a few points in early matches. Those were fewer (though not zero) against Gorges. That said, she hasn't been a court-coverage burner like Halep or Wozniacki since about 2007. She goes for aggressive shots that force even good returners into weak "just get it over" returns and bad positions, so what determines her outcomes is whether she can hit those shots without a huge UE%. If she can, there are maybe 2-3 women in the world at any given time who can stand in the court against her and push her. If she can't, she could get shocked on any given day, even if she's the favorite in every match. Hence the cliche that the only person who can truly beat Serena is herself.

I'm not sure it says a lot about the tour, as much as the fact that Serena's skillset has been essentially unable to be replicated in the last 20 years and nobody has a good answer for it when she's clicking. I mean, who's the closet to her game? Azarenka? Lisicki? Pliskova? There aren't many big hitters who have her feel for keeping opponents off balance. And exactly nobody has a serve that's both as big and as reliable as hers.

As for the Sharapova match, this is one of the best opportunities she's ever going to have to break the streak. But the mental burden on Sharapova must surely be severe.
 

Infield Infidel

teaching korea american
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
11,463
Meeting Place, Canada
Keys and Stephens both in the quarters fairly easily, they are in the non-Serena half and in separate quarterfinal matches. Really great showing by the US women. Stephens probably faces Woz next.
 

Schnerres

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2009
1,554
Germany
I'll agree that she's not moving with peak mobility, but I was more concerned about bad footwork on a few points in early matches. Those were fewer (though not zero) against Gorges. That said, she hasn't been a court-coverage burner like Halep or Wozniacki since about 2007. She goes for aggressive shots that force even good returners into weak "just get it over" returns and bad positions, so what determines her outcomes is whether she can hit those shots without a huge UE%. If she can, there are maybe 2-3 women in the world at any given time who can stand in the court against her and push her. If she can't, she could get shocked on any given day, even if she's the favorite in every match. Hence the cliche that the only person who can truly beat Serena is herself.
I mean, she´s 36 (37 in September), coming back from having her first kid and has a ton of miles on her body. It´s not out of possibility that what we see of her right now is the best she will be and she is not playing herself into shape. Not that she has turned it around after injuries, etc., but at some point, your legs can´t keep up. She still has the power in her arms and the hand-eye coordination, which can take her past a lot of other players. But when she plays the top girls, which she would have beaten easily five years ago (Halep, Wozniacki, Muguruza, Stephens, Kerber in her form right now, haven´t seen Sharapova), she will be in trouble I think. I don´t think she´s still at that point in her career where she´s the favorite in each match and she´s the only one to beat herself. Because of the physical problems I think she has right now, I would love to see some better competition and how they play. Maybe she steps up, but I don´t like how she moves.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
Predicting that Serena's at the edge of what she can accomplish is a bit like predicting that the Patriots will fall apart before the day that Belichick and Brady retire. Sure, it could happen, and one of these days it's going to happen - but the list of people who make that prediction only to be proven wrong has gotten quite long, and gets longer every year.

The first 3 names on your list are at the peak of their talents and would be a challenge even to Serena's A-game (I particularly fear Muguruza as a Serena fan, given their history at this tournament), and arguably Kerber as well, though she's a bit off-form. But if her trajectory we've seen thus far in this tournament continues, she'll be no more than a slight underdog against any of them.

I mean, we talk about her record against Sharapova, but her record against Wozniacki is 10-1 (last: 2014 WTA Finals SF), against Halep 8-1 (last: USO 2016 QF). Kerber has 2 wins against her including the AO 2016 final. Basically, if Serena's legs and endurance are anything like what they were even 18 months ago, she should still be a favorite, though not the massive one she was pre-pregnancy. I think it's fair to question her fitness, and acceleration, but her game is predicated on things that have little to do with fitness: serve quality, groundstroke power, aggressive shotmaking, and first-class footwork.

When you talk about "how she moves", you're combining a few things it's worth separating:
1. Recognition off the racket, decision speed on what to do (playing herself into form here)
2. Acceleration towards her spot (sub-par, we agree)
3. Top footspeed on longer runs (has never been a burner, but could do with probably losing 5-10 pounds to get back to ~2015-16)
4. Footwork for economy of movement (she's always been amazing at this, and still is - look at how rarely she's shuffling her feet still when going for big hits)

I think 2 and 3 are a combination of doing more cardio, which she famously hates doing in training, and natural body type and strategy (she's given up some of that to be more offensive-minded). But they can be covered up by being better at 1 and 4, and to exploit it you still need big powerful shots, which is how Muguruza beat her twice at RG, running her to places she couldn't get to. Far easier said than done.

I suppose we'll know a lot more after the Sharapova match, since she's playing like a top-10 player right now.
 
Last edited:

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,714
The women's game has been very weak outside of Serena since Henin and Clijsters retired, it's why I still question Serena being called the best women's player ever (for me it is still Navratilova). I have always rooted for the Williams sisters but it's a shame Serena hasn't had more genuine challengers in recent years.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,755
Pittsburgh, PA
The women's game has been very weak outside of Serena since Henin and Clijsters retired, it's why I still question Serena being called the best women's player ever (for me it is still Navratilova). I have always rooted for the Williams sisters but it's a shame Serena hasn't had more genuine challengers in recent years.
How do you disentangle that from a situation where the game is stronger than ever, but one person is just that much better than everyone else? Was the PGA "very weak" when Tiger was in his prime, or was it that he was just that much better than everyone? Is the NBA's eastern conference miserable and bereft of talent over the last decade, or is Lebron James just that good?

You can judge the changes in women's tennis over the last 20-30 years by several other metrics:

- The number of card-holding professionals in the WTA and International tour has gone way up, suggesting a broader pool of people are playing and thus the end of the bell curve is probably farther out
- Average serve speed and groundstroke speed is way up, reducing margin for error
- Net play is way down, more players are living on the baseline, suggesting that passing shots are being hit more accurately, and that weak shots (that make good ones to approach) on are fewer, and also that sufficient fitness to play a baseline-driven game is more common
- The name changes within the top 10 and top 20 rankings have slowed in their pace, whether you look at official rankings or Elo, meaning that the players holding those positions are being more consistent in their performance and there is less randomness
- Careers are longer, with an ever-greater number of players in the top X (pick your X) being over 28, over 30, etc. Injuries are down, so there's less talent off the tour injured and more on the court at any given time

If your focus is purely the top 10, grand slam contenders, then you can look at the exact same dominant player and say "she's amazing, she beats all comers with remarkable consistency", or, "they're all terrible, everybody sucks but her". For some reason there are a large number of people resistant to the first explanation with Serena, when they have no trouble viewing things that way with, say, Federer.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,714
How do you disentangle that from a situation where the game is stronger than ever, but one person is just that much better than everyone else? Was the PGA "very weak" when Tiger was in his prime, or was it that he was just that much better than everyone? Is the NBA's eastern conference miserable and bereft of talent over the last decade, or is Lebron James just that good?
Don't follow golf and yes, the East has been pretty horrendous in the four years since LeBron has come back to CLE (it was stronger when he was in MIA), this year was a bit better but yes, pretty clearly, is my answer there.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,714
For some reason there are a large number of people resistant to the first explanation with Serena, when they have no trouble viewing things that way with, say, Federer.
Federer is about as bad an example as you could have given here (and FWIW, I have always rooted for Serena and rarely for Federer), as he has overlapped with two of the other greatest players of all time in Nadal and Djokovic, and even Murray and Wawrinka were pretty great historically for being the 4th/5th players in the game. One way to differentiate is that all of those players were in contention virtually every single major, often making up the entire semis, whereas no women's player has shown even a smidgen of consistency from Slam to Slam.
 

BigMike

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 26, 2000
23,244
Serena started in a strong era in Womens tennis. The early 2000s was probably the deepest era.

Jsut look at the 2001 top 10
1) Davenport
2) Capriati
3) Venus
4) Hingis
5) Clijsters
6) Serena
7) Henin
8) Docic
9) Mareusmo
10) Seles

In 2005 your top 11 was
1) Davenport
2) Clijsters
3) Mauresmo
4) Sharapova
5) Pierce
6) Henin
7) Schnyder
8) Dementieva
9) Petrova
10) Venus
11) Serena

And Serrena was a great player in this era having won 8 torunaments before her 27th birthday, right at the top of this list with Henin. It was a brilliant era of tennis where in fact there were 8-12 women who had a chance of winning a major tournament.

Serena outlasted that era, and feasted on an era of weak players. Are there talented female players today? Sure there are some good ones, you have some of the dynamic ones who on a greeat week dominate, but are more likely to get wiped out in the first round than to make it . And then you have some players who simply don't have the dominant game, but are consistent on a week to week basis


How do you disentangle that from a situation where the game is stronger than ever, but one person is just that much better than everyone else? Was the PGA "very weak" when Tiger was in his prime, or was it that he was just that much better than everyone? Is the NBA's eastern conference miserable and bereft of talent over the last decade, or is Lebron James just that good?
And yes the PGA tour was weaker 15 years ago than it is today, and there were a whole lot of guys who pissed their pants by simply being put in a pairing with Tiger.