Penn State AD and Sandusky Charged

cheekydave

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Folks, it is an Icky topic.

Most people when confronted with the mental images of this topic cringe. It is disgusting on so many levels, and for 99.999% of people, impossible to relate to any situation where you could/would abuse a child. And unless you have been abused, it is very hard to relate to what it may feel like to be put into such a helpless situation.

It is such an icky topic, that people simply either run from it, or try to rationalize it, or simply just drop it.

The supporters of Paterno don't get it. It doesn't seem like Paterno gets it.

There is only one right thing to do in these situations. Stop the abuser, protect the child, and call the cops.

Paterno and Penn State made a choice to protect their program and their image. Many people make the same choice to protect their marriage or the like. Does them make them devils? Sadly in many cases I find this makes them simply incredibly normal. People want to protect their own job, life situation, status etc.

Its take an extraordinary person who will risk their career, social standing, status etc, to intervene and possibly put their head above water, and draw attention to themselves, and take the risk to help a powerless person who has no ability to help themselves, especially when such help might be met with indifference at best or resistance at worst.
 

mauf

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This is not a defense of Paterno or anyone else here, but in my mind there's a big difference between being complicit in a cover up and distancing yourself from something you really don't want to know.
Bullshit -- this is a defense of Paterno. Indeed, it's the only possible defense of Paterno, given what he has already acknowledged to be true.
 

mauf

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Seriously. Appointing a committee to investigate the findings of the grand jury? Really? Astonishingly inadequate.
I'll wait and see on this one. There's obviously a possibility for a whitewash, but a credible investigation would answer questions that go beyond whether crimes were committed, which is the grand jury's narrow mandate.


A rigorous investigation would examine topics such as how much Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation of Sandusky, whether there was any connection between that investigation and Sandusky's retirement the next year, whether Paterno or school administrators spoke with Sandusky after McQueary's report in 2002, and so on. No one's criminal culpability turns on the answers to those questions, but I think PSU has to answer them to get any kind of closure.

 

Byrdbrain

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I just want to post a recap of what we do know from what I understand. I have to say I don't believe Paterno's story (sorry won't call him that cutsie JoPa nickname as it currently makes me sick) but for the sake of this post I will assume he is telling the 100% truth in his Grand Jury testimony.

1977 - Sandusky forms the charity Second Mile to "help" at risk kids.

1998 - Sandusky admits to a mother, with Police in another room, to showering with a young boy and "maybe" touching his private parts. He states that he would like forgiveness and wishes he were dead. The DA refuses to prosecute and in 2005 disappears under mysterious circumstances (as was stated previously it was more likely to do with a drug prosecution but it is still interesting). Paterno claims he was unaware of the investigation which I believe strains credulity but lets assume that is true. Sandusky who until that point was viewed as Paterno's likely successor unexpectedly retires to spend more time with his family and with the kids from the foundation.

2000 - A janitor sees Sandusky in the locker room involved in oral sex with a young boy. This janitor did nothing to stop the attack but reported it to his superior. At some point the players involved decided to not report the incident fearing for their jobs.

2002 - Graduate Assitant McQuery hears unusual sounds coming from the shower area of what he thought was an empty locker room and spots Sandusky anally raping a young boy. Instead of stopping the attack and/or immediately calling police this 28 year old recent former D1 football player ran away and called his father. Per Paterno, the next day Mcquery told him that Sandusky was "in the shower fondling a child of about 10 and doing something of a sexual nature". According to Paterno he didn't ask any other questions and simply passed this info on to the AD. The only result of this whole situation is Sandusky is told not to bring children in to the locker room. In other words they were ok with him raping kids just not in their locker room.

2003 - McQuery is promoted from GA to full Assistant Coach and eventually recruiting coordinator.

2009 - Sandusky molests a young boy at a local school that he is helping coach. A parent complains to school officials who immediately go to authorities, this begins the legal proceedings that brought us to where we are.

2011 - All players involved testify before a grand jury regarding what they knew and two executives from PSU are indicted on perjury charges.

Last week - Sandusky works out at the PSU facilities.

A couple days ago - Paterno tells his team he had no idea any of this was going on with Sandusky and they should just worry about the Nebraska game. Paterno also releases a statement saying he is "shocked" by these charges seemingly forgetting about his own grand jury testimony.



Sorry for the length of this but I just wanted to do a recap of the situation and some details of what Paterno knew (per his own testimony) and when he knew it.
 

Average Reds

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I'll wait and see on this one. There's obviously a possibility for a whitewash, but a credible investigation would answer questions that go beyond whether crimes were committed, which is the grand jury's narrow mandate.


A rigorous investigation would examine topics such as how much Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation of Sandusky, whether there was any connection between that investigation and Sandusky's retirement the next year, whether Paterno or school administrators spoke with Sandusky after McQueary's report in 2002, and so on. No one's criminal culpability turns on the answers to those questions, but I think PSU has to answer them to get any kind of closure.
I don't want to speak for others, but this is what I was implying in my earlier post. In addition to this, I want to know the circumstances of McQueary's continued employment and why Sandusky maintained access to PSU facilities until very recently when this was supposed to end in 2002.

Hell, there's a whole raft of questions we need to answer before PSU can move forward from this - not as a football power, which I don't give a damn about, but as a functioning University.
 

pedroia'sboys

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Aug 26, 2007
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So I couldn't control myself yest, and had a little fun with some Penn State students over Facebook. Posted some comments on that facebook group linked in this thread. After half hour received threats that someone is going to kill me, and that they were going to call my employer today for posting a picture of Sandusky. Stay classy Penn State! Actually wouldn't mind getting fired, unemployment baby!:c070:
 

PC Drunken Friar

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I cannot disagree with this more.

While I'm no former Div 1 QB, I'm 6 feet tall and 190. I know what I would do. I'd be fully prepared to physically intervene if necessary if I saw anyone in a shower raping a 10 year old. I'd intervene, even if that meant I'd get my own ass kicked or worse. I would not be able to live with myself otherwise. Of this I have no question.

If this was some back alley and the guy had a gun to someone's head while they were raping them, sure, I might think about it for a second. But in the scenario presented- a naked man in a shower raping a naked child- I wouldn't stop to think about possible later ramifications. I'd save and protect that kid- which is what the kid deserves. I wouldn't beat the offender to death or anything like that (I'd leave that for Bubba in prison to do) but I'd do everything in my physical power to stop the rape in question.

I don't understand your point about trivial fights- if I had to fight someone to save a child from getting raped, that's about as far from trivial as it gets.
While I have no idea how it really affected the GA when he saw it, i see no problem or anything wrong with calling him a HUG fucking pussy in this situation. And i froze up and did the same as him, I am a huge fucking pussy myself.
 

RingoOSU

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[quote name='pedroia'sboys' timestamp='1320852272' post='3842991']
So I couldn't control myself yest, and had a little fun with some Penn State students over Facebook. Posted some comments on that facebook group linked in this thread. After half hour received threats that someone is going to kill me, and that they were going to call my employer today for posting a picture of Sandusky. Stay classy Penn State! Actually wouldn't mind getting fired, unemployment baby!:c070:
[/quote]
Your screen name would be rather ironic with your stance, if it was brett pedroia's boys.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
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While I have no idea how it really affected the GA when he saw it, i see no problem or anything wrong with calling him a HUG fucking pussy in this situation. And i froze up and did the same as him, I am a huge fucking pussy myself.
Well said. Any doubts I have about how I'd act in a like situation reveal more about my self-esteem than they do about the moral quality of McQueary's actions.

I said it before, but it bears repeating -- McQueary told the truth before the grand jury, despite having every reason not to do so. There was absolutely no reason for him to be so certain that he mentioned anal sex to Paterno, Curley and Schultz, unless he's actually certain he mentioned it. Because all the facts are in on McQueary, there's a tendency to judge him, but let's keep in mind that he's almost certainly the least culpable of the named players here.
 

In Vino Vinatieri

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Nov 20, 2009
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I cannot disagree with this more.

While I'm no former Div 1 QB, I'm 6 feet tall and 190. I know what I would do. I'd be fully prepared to physically intervene if necessary if I saw anyone in a shower raping a 10 year old. I'd intervene, even if that meant I'd get my own ass kicked or worse. I would not be able to live with myself otherwise. Of this I have no question.

If this was some back alley and the guy had a gun to someone's head while they were raping them, sure, I might think about it for a second. But in the scenario presented- a naked man in a shower raping a naked child- I wouldn't stop to think about possible later ramifications. I'd save and protect that kid- which is what the kid deserves. I wouldn't beat the offender to death or anything like that (I'd leave that for Bubba in prison to do) but I'd do everything in my physical power to stop the rape in question.

I don't understand your point about trivial fights- if I had to fight someone to save a child from getting raped, that's about as far from trivial as it gets.
Some people will escalate a trivial fight into a matter of life and limb, and it's almost guaranteed to be worse in a situation like this. If you aren't willing to beat the guy to death, what are you going to do if he wants to beat you to death? Are you just going to beat him until he's unconscious? What if you beat him til he's down but he's still wriggling on the floor? And then what, drag him with you to a phone to make sure he doesn't get up? What are you going to do with the kid? Are you going to leave the two of them alone, or just Sandusky alone, while you get to a phone? Are you going to let the kid maybe run off while you phone the police? Are you going to let Sandusky potentially get up and escape, or get up and get a weapon, if you leave him on the floor?

Are you going to do all this if you just heard noises and saw the two of them naked in the shower, without any explicit evidence? Can you really picture beating someone you currently know and trust unconscious, based on a suspicion, on a moment's notice?

The point is you don't know how the other person is going to react. Because of this, barfighting is a stupid activity, and because of this, talking about beating someone like Sandusky within an inch of their life or whatever is just total speculation with very little basis on reality or what would really happen and what historically does happen. Keep in mind that Sandusky was a guy McQueary knew and trusted for a long time, unlike the random unknown child-molesting figure he is to most of us. A lot of people will feel like that, but a significant portion would behave similar to how McQueary immediately reacted, and I don't think it's indicative of much.

I think it's much more damning what McQueary did in the long-term, both of himself and of the whole institution. In order for him to take a better job there and stay around, they all must have convinced each other it either wasn't happening or wasn't that bad or wasn't going to continue. It's awful.
 

Seven Costanza

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Well said. Any doubts I have about how I'd act in a like situation reveal more about my self-esteem than they do about the moral quality of McQueary's actions.

I said it before, but it bears repeating -- McQueary told the truth before the grand jury, despite having every reason not to do so. There was absolutely no reason for him to be so certain that he mentioned anal sex to Paterno, Curley and Schultz, unless he's actually certain he mentioned it. Because all the facts are in on McQueary, there's a tendency to judge him, but let's keep in mind that he's almost certainly the least culpable of the named players here.
I commend the guy for being upright and honest in his grand jury testimony. He certainly did nothing wrong per se (in a legal sense), but all I know is if I ever consider career ramifications or what might happen to me physically or legally when I see a child being anally raped and that prohibits me from immediately stopping said rape... I don't know what I would do with myself. I have no idea how he can live with himself.
 

Scriblerus

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What is lost in all of this is Paterno's and the university's legal responsibility to report this to the police. I teach at a university, and I am required to report any suspected or witnessed abuse of any student, regardless of age. I know that this policy goes beyond the state/federal regulations, but I don't see how failure to report sexual abuse of a minor cannot go unnoticed from a legal standpoint. I know elementary school teachers who have been fired for not reporting suspected abuse. These people knew what was happening and did nothing. They are culpable.

I have seen the corruption of college athletic programs first hand, but nothing this morally bankrupt. And it's not just the coaches, ADs, Trustees, and upper administrators all need to be called out on this. The fans who support teams/universities that allow things like this is to carry on are culpable as well. The ones who defend it make my stomach turn. Universities look to athletics to generate alumni donations and to build a brand. The ONLY way corruption of university athletics stops is if fans stop supporting teams that feel it's in their interest to sweep crimes under the rug and to plead ignorance when those crimes are revealed.

Any university President who claims ignorance to things like this lying. Penn State should fire the President, the entire AD staff, clear the Board of Trustees, and begin every sentence directed to the public with "We are truly sorry..."

If Paterno is really in the midst of going senile, he should be given medical attention and kept out of the public eye. If he's not, then he should be held publicly accountable for his inaction.
 

Seven Costanza

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Some people will escalate a trivial fight into a matter of life and limb, and it's almost guaranteed to be worse in a situation like this. If you aren't willing to beat the guy to death, what are you going to do if he wants to beat you to death? Are you just going to beat him until he's unconscious? What if you beat him til he's down but he's still wriggling on the floor? And then what, drag him with you to a phone to make sure he doesn't get up? What are you going to do with the kid? Are you going to leave the two of them alone, or just Sandusky alone, while you get to a phone? Are you going to let the kid maybe run off while you phone the police? Are you going to let Sandusky potentially get up and escape, or get up and get a weapon, if you leave him on the floor?

Are you going to do all this if you just heard noises and saw the two of them naked in the shower, without any explicit evidence? Can you really picture beating someone you currently know and trust unconscious, based on a suspicion, on a moment's notice?

The point is you don't know how the other person is going to react. Because of this, barfighting is a stupid activity, and because of this, talking about beating someone like Sandusky within an inch of their life or whatever is just total speculation with very little basis on reality or what would really happen and what historically does happen. Keep in mind that Sandusky was a guy McQueary knew and trusted for a long time, unlike the random unknown child-molesting figure he is to most of us. A lot of people will feel like that, but a significant portion would behave similar to how McQueary immediately reacted, and I don't think it's indicative of much.

I think it's much more damning what McQueary did in the long-term, both of himself and of the whole institution. In order for him to take a better job there and stay around, they all must have convinced each other it either wasn't happening or wasn't that bad or wasn't going to continue. It's awful.
Are you kidding? I wouldn't think about any of those things. I never said anything about beating the perpetrator unconcious or within an inch of his life- just using physical force to stop the rape in progress. Hell, for all we know, a simple, "What the hell are you doing?" would have made him stop. I would fight a man I currently know and trust (to stop a rape in progress) if I saw what McQuery allegedly saw. It doesn't sound like there was any gray area whatsoever.

I really don't know how to rationally respond to you here. For what has come out, McQuery saw, with his own two eyes, Jerry Sandusky anally raping a 10 year old. If that was me, and I was sure what I saw was actually taking place, there's no way in hell I would just walk away. I would stop it, one way or the other. I would not beat Sandusky. If he didn't stop the rape when I shouted or whatever and I had to physically subdue him, so be it. If he fought me or then tried to hurt me in any way, I would defend myself. That simple.
 

Average Reds

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Well said. Any doubts I have about how I'd act in a like situation reveal more about my self-esteem than they do about the moral quality of McQueary's actions.

I said it before, but it bears repeating -- McQueary told the truth before the grand jury, despite having every reason not to do so. There was absolutely no reason for him to be so certain that he mentioned anal sex to Paterno, Curley and Schultz, unless he's actually certain he mentioned it. Because all the facts are in on McQueary, there's a tendency to judge him, but let's keep in mind that he's almost certainly the least culpable of the named players here.
Agree with your general point, but all the facts are most certainly not in on Mike McQueary.

As you mentioned, he was absolutely certain of what he saw, and was painfully explicit in his description. How does someone who witnessed *that* see Sandusky on campus, in the locker room, working with his foundation, in the offices - for the better part of the next decade - and say nothing else about it? It just doesn't add up unless he was explicitly directed not to discuss it with anyone and not to go to the police. If that's true, then I'd like to know why? (Is it related to his job? To something else that he was told by the AD or Paterno? Was he threatened? Etc.) If it's not true, then I'd like to know the reason for his odd silence, because this is more problematic for me than anything else. He's the one who saw what happened, and he has co-existed with Sandusky in the facility until as recently as last week. That is truly inexplicable.

And as you say, we know more about McQueary than we know about anyone else. Which means we really don't know much about what the hell has been going on at Penn State other than a depressing certainty that people at the highest levels of the University have a strange idea about their obligations to the larger community.
 

In Vino Vinatieri

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Nov 20, 2009
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While I have no idea how it really affected the GA when he saw it, i see no problem or anything wrong with calling him a HUG fucking pussy in this situation. And i froze up and did the same as him, I am a huge fucking pussy myself.
oh I have no problem saying this either, about him or myself if I had done that in that situation. I just think it's completely unrealistic to say that you can just charge in, beat the life out of Sandusky, save the kid, become a hero. It's all entirely predicated on the idea that Sandusky would just give up and let himself be arrested and his life be ruined. It's possible, but it's not certain.

If the administration above McQueary were not all so corrupt and willing to cover it up, then we all might be praising McQueary for handling it like he did to make sure Sandusky was investigated and charged. Or if he had started a fight and Sandusky was incapacitated or whatever and it interfered with the investigation, or Sandusky went completely crazy and tried to kill the kid or McQueary or himself, then we'd all be asking why he didn't call the police instead of interfering immediately. There are just so many unknowns and it's so unrealistic that it's a distraction from the reality of it, that the PSU administration, possibly including Paterno and McQueary, sat on it for almost a decade without doing anything significant about it.

I'd much rather focus on this, which is incredibly damning, and his willingness to testify at the grand jury, which should be recognized as being much better than some of the administrators who were just charged with perjury. Not that it makes up for that decade coaching in the same locker rooms where he witnessed it.
 

JBill

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A couple days ago - Paterno tells his team he had no idea any of this was going on with Sandusky and they should just worry about the Nebraska game.

Sorry for the length of this but I just wanted to do a recap of the situation and some details of what Paterno knew (per his own testimony) and when he knew it.
Good summary. In addition to not telling the team, he released a statement saying he was "shocked" about Sandusky. Did he forget what he testified to and that we can all read it?

As for any good guys in this story, I'd point to the high school authorities who could give a shit about JoePa and Penn State and took the allegations to the police as they were supposed to do. Without those actions, none of this would have come to light, and the GA wouldn't have had the opportunity to heroically tell what he knows under threat of perjury....
 

Judge Mental13

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I don't think the problem is that he did not stop it, and I only say that because I'm sure he felt what was happening was wrong, but was shocked and upset by it and did not know what to do. His first instinct was not to run in and assault Sandusky and whether or not you think that's right, wrong, or somewhere in between is pretty pointless because most of us have never walked into a shower and seen a child getting raped. I have no fucking idea what I would do, because I've never considered that scenario before. I know that the sight of such a thing would certainly shock the shit out of me, and anyone saying that someone being shellshocked by witnessing something as horrifying as that is a "pussy", well I'll have to disagree. Soldiers in combat freeze up sometimes while they see something horrific in battle and they're US military trained soldiers, so if you're saying that a 28 year old who saw a superior of his doing something so unspeakable that he froze up and didn't respond like Jack Bauer is a pussy then you're calling a LOT of non-pussies pussies as well.

The problem is that he stayed on. They all did.
 

In Vino Vinatieri

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Nov 20, 2009
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Are you kidding? I wouldn't think about any of those things. I never said anything about beating the perpetrator unconcious or within an inch of his life- just using physical force to stop the rape in progress. Hell, for all we know, a simple, "What the hell are you doing?" would have made him stop. I would fight a man I currently know and trust (to stop a rape in progress) if I saw what McQuery allegedly saw. It doesn't sound like there was any gray area whatsoever.

I really don't know how to rationally respond to you here. For what has come out, McQuery saw, with his own two eyes, Jerry Sandusky anally raping a 10 year old. If that was me, and I was sure what I saw was actually taking place, there's no way in hell I would just walk away. I would stop it, one way or the other. I would not beat Sandusky. If he didn't stop the rape when I shouted or whatever and I had to physically subdue him, so be it. If he fought me or then tried to hurt me in any way, I would defend myself. That simple.
That's the whole point, you have no idea what he would do. I'm not saying you would even think about it then, but you are thinking about it now, and are just operating under the assumption that he gives up or that you would beat him sufficiently until he did.

There is a grey area -- what I read showed McQueary testifying he "heard slapping sounds" of a sexual nature, went to take a look, and saw Sandusky with the child. If he testified he saw them in an actual sex act, then I missed it. I've read that he says he reported to Paterno that he definitively saw a sex act, but I've never seen him say he actually walked in and saw them doing it, which is a pretty big difference. Hearing sounds and then seeing them naked together is an inference which allows a lot of room for doubt.
 

Zomp

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I don't think the problem is that he did not stop it, and I only say that because I'm sure he felt what was happening was wrong, but was shocked and upset by it and did not know what to do. His first instinct was not to run in and assault Sandusky and whether or not you think that's right, wrong, or somewhere in between is pretty pointless because most of us have never walked into a shower and seen a child getting raped. I have no fucking idea what I would do, because I've never considered that scenario before. I know that the sight of such a thing would certainly shock the shit out of me, and anyone saying that someone being shellshocked by witnessing something as horrifying as that is a "pussy", well I'll have to disagree. Soldiers in combat freeze up sometimes while they see something horrific in battle and they're US military trained soldiers, so if you're saying that a 28 year old who saw a superior of his doing something so unspeakable that he froze up and didn't respond like Jack Bauer is a pussy then you're calling a LOT of non-pussies pussies as well.

The problem is that he stayed on. They all did.

Well said, Judge.
 

mauf

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There is a grey area -- what I read showed McQueary testifying he "heard slapping sounds" of a sexual nature, went to take a look, and saw Sandusky with the child. If he testified he saw them in an actual sex act, then I missed it. I've read that he says he reported to Paterno that he definitively saw a sex act, but I've never seen him say he actually walked in and saw them doing it, which is a pretty big difference. Hearing sounds and then seeing them naked together is an inference which allows a lot of room for doubt.
There is no gray area, unless you disbelieve McQueary's grand jury testimony. He said he saw anal sex. He said he told Paterno, Curley and Schultz he saw anal sex. He said he was absolutely certain of these facts. No gray area.
 

Fred not Lynn

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I commend the guy for being upright and honest in his grand jury testimony. He certainly did nothing wrong per se (in a legal sense), but all I know is if I ever consider career ramifications or what might happen to me physically or legally when I see a child being anally raped and that prohibits me from immediately stopping said rape... I don't know what I would do with myself. I have no idea how he can live with himself.
Seems to me that McQueary just choked in the moment. It is easy for us to all sit here behind our computers and talk big about how we would have done the right thing, but in that brief moment seeing something you can't and don't want to believe you're seeing, I am not so sure that big talk would have been action. My guess is that McQueary replays the events of that day over and over again in his mind, full of regret. Yes, he had many chances to do right things beyond the moment, and that is a different discussion - but I can see how human frailty could render him useless on the day this happened.
 

Byrdbrain

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Good summary. In addition to not telling the team, he released a statement saying he was "shocked" about Sandusky. Did he forget what he testified to and that we can all read it?

As for any good guys in this story, I'd point to the high school authorities who could give a shit about JoePa and Penn State and took the allegations to the police as they were supposed to do. Without those actions, none of this would have come to light, and the GA wouldn't have had the opportunity to heroically tell what he knows under threat of perjury....
Good point on the statement, I'm going to edit and add that blurb.
Agreed on the school, as far as I can see those people are the only real "good guys" in this whole situation.
 

Infield Infidel

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I cannot disagree with this more.

While I'm no former Div 1 QB, I'm 6 feet tall and 190. I know what I would do. I'd be fully prepared to physically intervene if necessary if I saw anyone in a shower raping a 10 year old. I'd intervene, even if that meant I'd get my own ass kicked or worse. I would not be able to live with myself otherwise. Of this I have no question.
What if, after you intervene, the kid runs away, goes home, gets his dad's gun and shoots himself, all because someone found out? What if Sandusky gets the kid again, but since you found out, shoots the kid and himself. I'm not saying that these would certainly happen, but it's in the realm of possibilities. How would you live with yourself then?

Kids aren't rational actors, which is why we have laws protecting them against this kind of stuff. It's why we have mental health professionals guide kids in their recovery from this kind of trauma.

Scumbags like Sandusky also aren't rational actors, which is why we have authorities to deal with them.
 

Seven Costanza

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That's the whole point, you have no idea what he would do. I'm not saying you would even think about it then, but you are thinking about it now, and are just operating under the assumption that he gives up or that you would beat him sufficiently until he did.

There is a grey area -- what I read showed McQueary testifying he "heard slapping sounds" of a sexual nature, went to take a look, and saw Sandusky with the child. If he testified he saw them in an actual sex act, then I missed it. I've read that he says he reported to Paterno that he definitively saw a sex act, but I've never seen him say he actually walked in and saw them doing it, which is a pretty big difference. Hearing sounds and then seeing them naked together is an inference which allows a lot of room for doubt.
You're right, I don't have any clue what he would do. But if I saw a child getting raped (or saw a grown man and a child in a shower together and heard slapping sounds of a sexual nature) I sure as shit wouldn't shrink and walk away. I would find out exactly what the hell was happening and put a stop to it, one way or another. I wouldn't be able to live with myself otherwise. If the guy fought back or tried to kill me, than so be it. I guess that I chose the wrong situation in which to intervene. At least I wouldn't die knowing that that one time I saw a kid getting raped, I walked away and let the act continue.

JM- I don't exactly think this is analagous to getting shot at by a bunch of guys with AK-47's or whatnot. I know that I wouldn't freeze in this Sandusky shower rape scenario. But that's just me.


EDIT: I'm obviously fighting an uphill battle here. Agree to disagree.
 

Byrdbrain

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8,588
Well Joe said he is retiring at the end of the year and the board of regents doesn't need to waste any more time discussing his status any more.
I'm sure the board appreciates Joe's selfless action in this matter.



Sorry I don't post much but I hope I don't need to point out that I'm being sarcastic.
 

soxfan121

JAG
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Dec 22, 2002
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The supporters of Paterno don't get it. It doesn't seem like Paterno gets it.

There is only one right thing to do in these situations. Stop the abuser, protect the child, and call the cops.

Paterno and Penn State made a choice to protect their program and their image. Many people make the same choice to protect their marriage or the like. Does them make them devils? Sadly in many cases I find this makes them simply incredibly normal. People want to protect their own job, life situation, status etc.
Thank you for your continued posts in this thread.

Paterno is EIGHTY-FOUR years old. For years there have been whispers & rumblings about his diminishing capacity as a football coach. Allegations that he was hanging on for the record and allowing his sons, the associate coaches, to handle the program.

It is NOT a surprise that Joe Paterno's public statements are rambling, incoherent and insufficient. He's 84. He's been the King for more than 30 years - of course he doesn't understand that the world has changed, that he's not going to be able to cover up for his friend Sandusky, that him speaking to a pep rally in the midst of all this is inappropriate and stupid.

Due to the length of Paterno's relationship with Sandusky, JoePa deserves to be held accountable for his inaction. But he's also an old man, a dinosaur living in the modern age with a long-ingrained perception of himself and PSU as untouchable and a definitely working with less than the full set of marbles. I don't expect him to be coherent, sensitive or cognizant of the situation - he's eighty-freaking-four. That doesn't excuse him, that doesn't justify him - it only explains why he is acting the way he is.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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I don't think the problem is that he did not stop it, and I only say that because I'm sure he felt what was happening was wrong, but was shocked and upset by it and did not know what to do. His first instinct was not to run in and assault Sandusky and whether or not you think that's right, wrong, or somewhere in between is pretty pointless because most of us have never walked into a shower and seen a child getting raped. I have no fucking idea what I would do, because I've never considered that scenario before. I know that the sight of such a thing would certainly shock the shit out of me, and anyone saying that someone being shellshocked by witnessing something as horrifying as that is a "pussy", well I'll have to disagree. Soldiers in combat freeze up sometimes while they see something horrific in battle and they're US military trained soldiers, so if you're saying that a 28 year old who saw a superior of his doing something so unspeakable that he froze up and didn't respond like Jack Bauer is a pussy then you're calling a LOT of non-pussies pussies as well.

The problem is that he stayed on. They all did.

It doesn't matter what the sight would do to me, or him. If he didn't do anything about it right then and there and stop it...he choked and is a pussy. There are no two ways about it. I don't know what I would do, but if I choked in that scenario, i am an asshole.
 

Infield Infidel

teaching korea american
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Jul 15, 2005
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Color me surprised that he's coaching passed this weekend. After the last couple days, how absolutely awful it would be to be a Penn State player at a road game with Paterno on the sideline? All the boos will be for Paterno, but they will get booed mercilessly. He really should be gone Monday at the latest.
 

Scriblerus

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Apr 1, 2009
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What if, after you intervene, the kid runs away, goes home, gets his dad's gun and shoots himself, all because someone found out? What if Sandusky gets the kid again, but since you found out, shoots the kid and himself. I'm not saying that these would certainly happen, but it's in the realm of possibilities. How would you live with yourself then?

Kids aren't rational actors, which is why we have laws protecting them against this kind of stuff. It's why we have mental health professionals guide kids in their recovery from this kind of trauma.

Scumbags like Sandusky also aren't rational actors, which is why we have authorities to deal with them.
What if the kid was actually just a really short 25 year-old? You can't play the "what if" game in a situation like this. What should he have done? At a minimum, he should have called the police immediately and reported it. I agree with those who say they would have yelled at them or walked over to find out what was going on. Either way, to NOT report it to the police is incredibly immoral and actually illegal for a state employee.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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What if, after you intervene, the kid runs away, goes home, gets his dad's gun and shoots himself, all because someone found out? What if Sandusky gets the kid again, but since you found out, shoots the kid and himself. I'm not saying that these would certainly happen, but it's in the realm of possibilities. How would you live with yourself then?

Kids aren't rational actors, which is why we have laws protecting them against this kind of stuff. It's why we have mental health professionals guide kids in their recovery from this kind of trauma.

Scumbags like Sandusky also aren't rational actors, which is why we have authorities to deal with them.

Another thing that gets lost in this whole episode (correct me if I am wrong) but the identity of the kid in the shower was never known! The GA didn't wait around to ID him. Paterno waited so long, so the kid missed out on perhaps getting the consoling he needs to help get thru this. For all we now, because no one intervened, he went home and blew his head off (your extreme example of the unintended consequences, not mine)
 

Tartan

New Member
Aug 20, 2008
361
MA
Judging a region or town by one person's tweets is pretty small-minded.

Our own beloved Red Sox evidently has a similarly sick story in its past.

http://m.espn.go.com...storyId=7208029
I wasn't judging the town on one person's tweets. No one with half a mind would do that. I was commenting on the general atmosphere as suggested by the rally and the shitstorm it was causing on twitter. Which, to be fair, was pretty much students, who aren't likely to be objective about Joe Pa at this very moment,
 

Corsi

isn't shy about blowing his wad early
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Statement from Paterno:



STATE COLLEGE, Pa., Nov. 9, 2011 -- I am absolutely devastated by the developments in this case. I grieve for the children and their families, and I pray for their comfort and relief.I have come to work every day for the last 61 years with one clear goal in mind: To serve the best interests of this university and the young men who have been entrusted to my care. I have the same goal today.

That's why I have decided to announce my retirement effective at the end of this season. At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status. They have far more important matters to address. I want to make this as easy for them as I possibly can.

This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more.

My goals now are to keep my commitments to my players and staff and finish the season with dignity and determination. And then I will spend the rest of my life doing everything I can to help this University.

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/articles/2011/11/09/joe_paterno_retirement_statement/?p1=News_links

 

Seven Costanza

Fred Astaire of SoSH
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Apr 11, 2007
3,016
What if, after you intervene, the kid runs away, goes home, gets his dad's gun and shoots himself, all because someone found out? What if Sandusky gets the kid again, but since you found out, shoots the kid and himself. I'm not saying that these would certainly happen, but it's in the realm of possibilities. How would you live with yourself then?
So are you suggesting that, God forbid, I ever see a child getting raped, I'm supposed to think, "Hey, let the perp finish inside the kid... if I stop it, the kid may kill himself?" This is beyond absurd. It could go the other way- the kid could just as easily kill himself because he doesn't want to be violently raped by a 60 year old anymore. Or the kid kills himself because he thinks he did something wrong.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Jul 30, 2001
7,187
Another thing that gets lost in this whole episode (correct me if I am wrong) but the identity of the kid in the shower was never known! The GA didn't wait around to ID him. Paterno waited so long, so the kid missed out on perhaps getting the consoling he needs to help get thru this. For all we now, because no one intervened, he went home and blew his head off (your extreme example of the unintended consequences, not mine)
This probably didn't just start magically happening in the late 90's either. That is most likely when Sandusky got so comfortable that he got riskier with his behavior. It appears there are now 20 victims and I would be willing to bet that number gets up towards 100 and the true number is never really known. It would not surprise me at all to find out there are victims of Sandusky that have killed themselves before what happened to them could ever be known. The 10 year old in the shower may not have gone home and blown his brains out that night but it would not surprise me at all to know between that incident and now he did take his own life. Really sad.
 

MiracleOfO2704

not AWOL
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Jul 12, 2005
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The Island
This is the most telling sentence from the statement: "At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status."
Yeah, I saw that line and couldn't help but laugh. Joe, you're part of their problem. If you report Sandusky to the cops 10 years ago, they don't have this problem.
 

In Vino Vinatieri

New Member
Nov 20, 2009
139
Scriblerus said:
What if the kid was actually just a really short 25 year-old? You can't play the "what if" game in a situation like this.
So are you suggesting that God forbid, I ever see a child getting raped, I'm supposed to think, "Hey, let the perp finish inside the kid... if I stop it, the kid may kill himself?" This is beyond absurd.
that's the point. You think you know what you would do, but if you had asked McQueary the day before what he would do if he saw a little boy getting raped in the showers, he might've said he'd go intervene or fight the guy or whatever, just like a lot of people are here. It's just a bunch of what-ifs, and to think you know what you would do is a what-if, and to think about what you would do without considering what would happen afterwards is just not really relevant and distracts from what happened. As someone else said, it's more about self-esteem than the actual situation -- I think that I'd intervene in some way because I think that I'm a good person who does the right thing. What does that have to do with McQueary? He probably thought the same thing the day before it happened.


as for Paterno's statement, WTF? I can't believe this is all still going on. I can see giving the guy a little benefit of the doubt, but they need to seriously investigate his involvement immediately, and they need to do it knowing they might fire or force him to resign before gametime on Saturday. If they don't even consider that and just let him coach out the rest of the season then they are going along with a huge cover up and a lot of stonewalling that has allowed over 20 kids to be sexually assaulted and destroyed emotionally in a way they won't ever fully recover from. If the administration continues to give him benefit of the doubt and just kick the can down the road, they are culpable in a way similar to the way the administrators charged with perjury are.
 

The Napkin

wise ass al kaprielian
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Jul 13, 2002
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right here
If a cougar is a woman who goes after younger men is a nittany lion a man who goes after younger men?
 

twibnotes

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Jul 16, 2005
20,232
I wasn't judging the town on one person's tweets. No one with half a mind would do that. I was commenting on the general atmosphere as suggested by the rally and the shitstorm it was causing on twitter. Which, to be fair, was pretty much students, who aren't likely to be objective about Joe Pa at this very moment,
They also represent a small fraction of the overall student population. It's a massive school (over 45K students in State College alone). We're not talking about seeing a few hundred students from Bates or Colby rallying at the coach's house.

Full disclosure, my girlfriend and her parents attended PSU. They WERE huge supports of JoePa, but that has changed fast. Most people, PSU or otherwise, see this situation for what it is: a disgrace. In short, I wouldn't take the rally as an indicator of what most PSUers think.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Jul 30, 2001
7,187
I can say with reasonable confidence and conviction that if I were in MM's shoes that I probably would have stepped away to a place that I could not be heard, quickly called 911 to report a rape of a minor in the lockerroom shower and the perpetrator is Jerry Sandusky. At that point I would hang up the phone and go stop it, knowing the cops are on the way and that it needed to stop and stop right that moment. If that means I put myself in physical harm then so be it. I only say probably about the phone call part of it. No matter what I know that I would have gone in there and done whatever I could to break up what was happening.

I feel that in the heat of the moment that my courage would have been strong enough to ignore the potential of harm to myself to help a young child that obviously was in distress.

Lets put it this way, if I see a child drowning in a pool or lake I'm jumping in regardless of the potential that I might drown myself in the attempt to save that child. To me its no different.
 

Gambler7

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Dec 11, 2003
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That statement is one of the most pathetic and embarrassing things I have ever read. Shameful.
 

The Napkin

wise ass al kaprielian
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right here
They also represent a small fraction of the overall student population. It's a massive school (over 45K students in State College alone). We're not talking about seeing a few hundred students from Bates or Colby rallying at the coach's house.

Full disclosure, my girlfriend and her parents attended PSU. They WERE huge supports of JoePa, but that has changed fast. Most people, PSU or otherwise, see this situation for what it is: a disgrace. In short, I wouldn't take the rally as an indicator of what most PSUers think.
So then where is the pep rally demanding that he go?
 

bosoxsue

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That statement is one of the most pathetic and embarrassing things I have ever read. Shameful.
I was thinking the same thing. A specialty PR firm helped him come up with THAT?