World Series 2018--Red Sox vs. Dodgers

Remagellan

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If evo pitched game 4 he wouldn't have been available til game 7 anyway.



I am not in favor of Sale tonight on short rest. Relatedly, I am pretty surprised at the complete lack of faith in Rodriguez.
I agree. I have faith in EdRo. Pitch Sale on short rest and we’re probably into our bullpen early today, and that could be a rough ride.

Eovaldi essentially did pitch “Game 4”. He came through with a strong effort but was let down by his defense and run support.

Let’s hope for better in the real Game 4.
 

bosockboy

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Kinsler watched Nelson Cruz screw up a fly ball that literally cost a WS in 2011, after his disastrous night I think you go with Holt the rest of the way at 2B. There’s another meltdown in there I think, hopefully Cora stays away from him the rest of the way.
 

joe dokes

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I agree. I have faith in EdRo. Pitch Sale on short rest and we’re probably into our bullpen early today, and that could be a rough ride.

Eovaldi essentially did pitch “Game 4”. He came through with a strong effort but was let down by his defense and run support.

Let’s hope for better in the real Game 4.
Pitch sale on short rest and then either a short rest cascade starts (even if they win) OR EdRo has to start game 5 anyway. Other than as a security blanket to fans who see Sale or Rodriguez, there's no good reason for it. Especially not this version of Sale.
 

dhellers

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Is it too early to go alliterative on the LA National League Team? To label them as the "dirty Dodgers"?
It may not just be Manny!
* Turner's high slide into Bogearts leg and bruised leg -- after which XB couldn't hit the ball out of the infield
* Barnes clip block on Nunez and tweaked ankle, with Nunez unable to score on a double and unable to avoid a tumble into the stands

Perhaps these are inTheHeatOfTheMoment accidents, but if it was Machado involved is that all you would think it was?
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Barnes clip block on Nunez
That's a stretch.

I know the booth was pimping the advantage Dodgers narrative, but they sure burnt up some bullpen capital last night, just like the Sox. 25+ pitches for both Baez and Jansen. If the Sox can score early then the Dodgers will be in trouble. I'd imagine Urias will be the first out of the pen.
 

Remagellan

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Pitch sale on short rest and then either a short rest cascade starts (even if they win) OR EdRo has to start game 5 anyway. Other than as a security blanket to fans who see Sale or Rodriguez, there's no good reason for it. Especially not this version of Sale.
Yes, the only way last night’s loss flips the series is if the Sox overreact to it. If the Dodgers bring Kershaw back on short rest that’s understandable, because they can’t afford to fall behind 3-1. But the Sox really only need to win one game in LA, and I rather they save their bullets for Game 5, especially since Sale even on full rest is no guarantee to pitch deep into the game. That being the case, I really don’t want them to try to pitch him on short rest tonight.
 

NDame616

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Weather may be an issue with Sale on short rest.

Would he be better on short rest in LA where its 80 degrees or regular rest in Boston when its 35?
 

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I’m guessing EdRo backed by Pomeranz. 4/5 EdRo, 1/2 Pomeranz. This also puts Bellinger/Muncy/Pederson on the pine assuming Roberts sticks to that.
That will be the fascinating thing. Will the Dodgers really put those guys back on the bench? If so, it's pretty good proof that the analytics guys really are running the team.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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I wish they would have just lost 1-0 if they were gonna lose in 18 as the alternative.

Hoping Kinsler doesn't see the field again. He's been dogshit at the plate and now cost them a game in the field, that possibly flips this whole series.
 

ricopetro6

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the problem with going with Erod is that his pitch count will be 100 in the 4th inning. Pom needs to pitch at least 1 inning, maybe 2.
 

Humphrey

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Is it too early to go alliterative on the LA National League Team? To label them as the "dirty Dodgers"?
It may not just be Manny!
* Turner's high slide into Bogearts leg and bruised leg -- after which XB couldn't hit the ball out of the infield
* Barnes clip block on Nunez and tweaked ankle, with Nunez unable to score on a double and unable to avoid a tumble into the stands

Perhaps these are inTheHeatOfTheMoment accidents, but if it was Machado involved is that all you would think it was?
1. Even with the reduced contact rules of today's game, Bogie was in the wrong place and he'd probably tell you that himself.
2. "Heat of the Moment" describes the play at home with Nunez exactly. Catcher's gotta go get that ball.
 
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Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
the problem with going with Erod is that his pitch count will be 100 in the 4th inning. Pom needs to pitch at least 1 inning, maybe 2.
I think that's almost inevitable. Cora needs to conserve his bullpen just a bit, because Sale is unlikely to be Iron Man McGinnity tomorrow either, and they will need at least a couple of pitchers who haven't thrown an inning-plus two days in a row. I do not want to see all three of Kelly, Barnes and Brasier tonight. Even if that means Drew Pomeranz throws two innings, or even three (if he's getting shellacked, of course, all bets are off).

The position players could make this discussion a hell of a lot less interesting by not sucking epically like they did last night. If Pomeranz takes the ball in the 5th inning with a six-run lead, it's not going to feel so much like we've painted ourselves into a corner.
 

Byrdbrain

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Is it too early to go alliterative on the LA National League Team? To label them as the "dirty Dodgers"?
It may not just be Manny!
* Turner's high slide into Bogearts leg and bruised leg -- after which XB couldn't hit the ball out of the infield
* Barnes clip block on Nunez and tweaked ankle, with Nunez unable to score on a double and unable to avoid a tumble into the stands

Perhaps these are inTheHeatOfTheMoment accidents, but if it was Machado involved is that all you would think it was?
Yes

Both plays were completely fine. X messed up on that play, guys have more protection than ever when turning DPs but X was standing in front of the base. Yes Turner went in hard, just like he should have. He could have spiked X but he didn't.
On the play at home what exactly would you have wanted Barnes to do? It was a huge moment in the game and the ball was sitting right between Nunez' legs, he did everything he could to get to the ball and the two got tangled up.
 

dhappy42

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Somewhat lost in the NL-style substitution-fest last night (this morning?) was Cora moving the outfielders around to different positions depending on who was batting. Betts’ box score line:

BETTS, RF-CF-RF-CF-RF-CF...

Teams should do this all the time. It’s the same idea as infield shifts.

Ironically, the usual Red Sox outfield of Benny-Bradley-Betts would need to shift less than most because they’re all great fielders.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Somewhat lost in the NL-style substitution-fest last night (this morning?) was Cora moving the outfielders around to different positions depending on who was batting. Betts’ box score line:

BETTS, RF-CF-RF-CF-RF-CF...

Teams should do this all the time. It’s the same idea as infield shifts.

Ironically, the usual Red Sox outfield of Benny-Bradley-Betts would need to shift less than most because they’re all great fielders.
Games would take four hours if they did that all the time.
 

Max Power

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Cora made two huge mistakes last night that were kind of lost in Kinsler's shittiness.

Pitching to Puig with Barnes on deck and a base open never should have happened. I understand not wanting to put the winning run on base, but there were two outs and you only need to get the guy at the plate. The difference between the options was too great to take that chance.

The Vaz bunt was a terrible idea that wasn't executed well, either. Maybe you'd give up an out for a base with a good hitter coming up, but Leon was on deck. And Madea was having trouble throwing strikes. Why give him a break?

Maybe it wouldn't have mattered anyway with Mookie and Xander doing their 2017 approach impressions. Let's hope they start swinging at the hittable pitches and stop flailing at the stuff out of the zone.
 

Byrdbrain

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Somewhat lost in the NL-style substitution-fest last night (this morning?) was Cora moving the outfielders around to different positions depending on who was batting. Betts’ box score line:

BETTS, RF-CF-RF-CF-RF-CF...

Teams should do this all the time. It’s the same idea as infield shifts.

Ironically, the usual Red Sox outfield of Benny-Bradley-Betts would need to shift less than most because they’re all great fielders.
I don't think we will see it often but we will probably start seeing it on occasion. It makes more sense at a symmetrical field like Dodger stadium rather than places like Fenway or YS. I can't see the point in moving JBJ to LF even if it was JDM out there but here the stadium doesn't enter in to the equation so the batter/pitcher matchup can dominate the decision.
 

JimD

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I’m more concerned about the potential emotional and physical hangover from the game than the fact that the Dodgers won. Objectively, one loss is no big deal.

But...between the awful approach at the plate from multiple players, possible injuries in the IF, the critical screw ups possibly sticking in the minds of guys like Kinsler, the general physical toll of the game length, and the inability to actually score runs against their bullpen, I worry about a hangover effect. These guys are still human, even though they’ve been ridiculously resilient all year. Winning tonight will require a level of resiliency they haven’t had to achieve before.
This is where I am. I'm really worried about the hitters - for some reason, they were completely thrown off their game plan last night and generally looked terrible. How easy will it be to clear their heads after such a gut punch and get back to being a patient lineup that hunts pitches?

Kinsler directly cost the team the game not once but twice, but he had a huge assist from Cora thanks to the manager's recklessly aggressive managing that emptied the bench way too soon. Would have been really nice to have a pinch runner to bring in for Nunez in the 13th, who would likely have scored a crucial insurance run had he not been too gimpy to run to Leon's double.
 

Byrdbrain

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Cora made two huge mistakes last night that were kind of lost in Kinsler's shittiness.

Pitching to Puig with Barnes on deck and a base open never should have happened. I understand not wanting to put the winning run on base, but there were two outs and you only need to get the guy at the plate. The difference between the options was too great to take that chance.

The Vaz bunt was a terrible idea that wasn't executed well, either. Maybe you'd give up an out for a base with a good hitter coming up, but Leon was on deck. And Madea was having trouble throwing strikes. Why give him a break?

Maybe it wouldn't have mattered anyway with Mookie and Xander doing their 2017 approach impressions. Let's hope they start swinging at the hittable pitches and stop flailing at the stuff out of the zone.
I can see the reasoning for going after Puig, I think they assumed they could get him to chase high heat. On the other hand while I think Puig is overrated he's still a much bigger threat than Barnes.
I regret to say I fell asleep so I didn't see the Vaz bunt but since I'm about as anti-bunt as they get I'll agree with you.
 

JimD

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Cora made two huge mistakes last night that were kind of lost in Kinsler's shittiness.

Pitching to Puig with Barnes on deck and a base open never should have happened. I understand not wanting to put the winning run on base, but there were two outs and you only need to get the guy at the plate. The difference between the options was too great to take that chance.

The Vaz bunt was a terrible idea that wasn't executed well, either. Maybe you'd give up an out for a base with a good hitter coming up, but Leon was on deck. And Madea was having trouble throwing strikes. Why give him a break?

Maybe it wouldn't have mattered anyway with Mookie and Xander doing their 2017 approach impressions. Let's hope they start swinging at the hittable pitches and stop flailing at the stuff out of the zone.
Agree on the decision to bat to Puig - would have opened up an opportunity for a force at second.
 

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Cora made two huge mistakes last night that were kind of lost in Kinsler's shittiness.

Pitching to Puig with Barnes on deck and a base open never should have happened. I understand not wanting to put the winning run on base, but there were two outs and you only need to get the guy at the plate. The difference between the options was too great to take that chance.

The Vaz bunt was a terrible idea that wasn't executed well, either. Maybe you'd give up an out for a base with a good hitter coming up, but Leon was on deck. And Madea was having trouble throwing strikes. Why give him a break?

Maybe it wouldn't have mattered anyway with Mookie and Xander doing their 2017 approach impressions. Let's hope they start swinging at the hittable pitches and stop flailing at the stuff out of the zone.
I didn't like pitching to Puig there, so at the time I really wanted them to go after Barnes instead. The fact is, however, that Eovaldi got Puig to ground out.

I hated the bunt, even though I don't hate bunts as much as some here. It was a great play by Maeda, but sacrificing to set up Leon? Yecchh. Especially given that Maeda had been wild. That helped him too much.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Pitching to Puig worked. Other than Kinsler not eating the ball.

Just like Roberts was rightfully blamed in games 1 and 2 for not having his best players out there, Cora didn’t have

Martinez
Pearce
Moreland
Devers
Benintendi

available for the last nine innings last night.

Mad props to Vazquez for his play at first base, having never done that in the bigs before.
 

ricopetro6

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Pitching to Puig worked. Other than Kinsler not eating the ball.

Just like Roberts was rightfully blamed in games 1 and 2 for not having his best players out there, Cora didn’t have

Martinez
Pearce
Moreland
Devers

available for the last nine innings last night.

Mad props to Vazquez for his play at first base, having never done that in the bigs before.
and benny
 

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I’m more concerned about the potential emotional and physical hangover from the game than the fact that the Dodgers won. Objectively, one loss is no big deal.

But...between the awful approach at the plate from multiple players, possible injuries in the IF, the critical screw ups possibly sticking in the minds of guys like Kinsler, the general physical toll of the game length, and the inability to actually score runs against their bullpen, I worry about a hangover effect. These guys are still human, even though they’ve been ridiculously resilient all year. Winning tonight will require a level of resiliency they haven’t had to achieve before.
This team is young and resilient. And hey, JD and Beni are extremely well rested. I really don't think an emotional hangover is a factor at all for the team. For the fans, hell yeah.
I'm not nearly as rah rah for Cora's overall in-game management as most here, but I do think he's done a great job in the clubhouse. This plays to his strength.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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I think the Dodger's plan of attack versus the Sox lineup was to work up, up, up in the zone. That lead to tons of weak contact. I'm not sure Hill can execute that game plan.
 

ricopetro6

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5 innings of this batting order, no wonder they couldn't score
vaz
leon
cold Betts
cold Boggy
pitcher
Kinsler
 

Byrdbrain

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I hate pinch running for one of your best hitters. It sure seems to me that the loss of the big bat isn't worth the very marginal extra chance of scoring a run.
It almost ended up working after a couple close call disasters.
I bagged the game thread before that happened and I haven't had the stomach to wade through all the crap in there but I assume that was much discussed/bitched about.

It is possible that JDMs ankle was acting up and Cora didn't want him out there any more but I sure hope that isn't the case.
 

Papo The Snow Tiger

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Yes, the only way last night’s loss flips the series is if the Sox overreact to it. If the Dodgers bring Kershaw back on short rest that’s understandable, because they can’t afford to fall behind 3-1. But the Sox really only need to win one game in LA, and I rather they save their bullets for Game 5, especially since Sale even on full rest is no guarantee to pitch deep into the game. That being the case, I really don’t want them to try to pitch him on short rest tonight.
This! I strongly agree with the bolded part. The ground ball past Buckner in Game 6 in '86 was maybe the biggest nut punch in history , but what people tend to forget is that the Sox had a three run lead in Game 7 until Bruce Hurst ran out of gas. If the '86 Sox can come back two nights later and take a lead midway through the game, there's no reason to believe this Sox team will fold up after an extra inning loss in Game 4. I hope Cora doesn't overreact and screw up the pitching by starting guys on short rest.
 

JimD

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Really concerned about Nunez - hope that Lin is in playing shape in case he's needed.
 

ookami7m

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Is it too early to go alliterative on the LA National League Team? To label them as the "dirty Dodgers"?
It may not just be Manny!
* Turner's high slide into Bogearts leg and bruised leg -- after which XB couldn't hit the ball out of the infield
* Barnes clip block on Nunez and tweaked ankle, with Nunez unable to score on a double and unable to avoid a tumble into the stands

Perhaps these are inTheHeatOfTheMoment accidents, but if it was Machado involved is that all you would think it was?
The Turner slide was a clean a play as it gets, X was out of position and Turner went directly to the bag.
Barnes was a cluster of a situation - no one did anything wrong there.


Pitching to Puig worked. Other than Kinsler not eating the ball.
.
If Kinsler just puts that ball in his pocket I think we're up 3-0 today (and better rested for work today). But even just not catching his toe in the turf - I think he gets Puig.
 

BigSoxFan

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Pitching to Puig worked. Other than Kinsler not eating the ball.

Just like Roberts was rightfully blamed in games 1 and 2 for not having his best players out there, Cora didn’t have

Martinez
Pearce
Moreland
Devers
Benintendi

available for the last nine innings last night.

Mad props to Vazquez for his play at first base, having never done that in the bigs before.
Moreland doesn’t belong on that list. He is the worst.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
That is not a problem with Erod so much as the entire problem with pitching Evoldi last night.
The killing irony of last night's game is that the things that worked best were also poison pills. PItching to Puig worked -- except the tying run scored. Going long with Eovaldi worked -- yet in the end didn't make a difference, and leaves them now without their (arguably) best pitcher for presumably the rest of this road set.
 

chawson

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I think the Dodger's plan of attack versus the Sox lineup was to work up, up, up in the zone. That lead to tons of weak contact. I'm not sure Hill can execute that game plan.
I'm with this take. Hill's curveball is not the masterpiece it used to be and about half our lineup is pretty capable of smashing it. I'm predicting a big night from Pearce.

I'm afraid that means we'll see Kinsler again, though. If his bat still has any use, it's against soft-tossing lefties.
 

chawson

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The killing irony of last night's game is that the things that worked best were also poison pills. PItching to Puig worked -- except the tying run scored. Going long with Eovaldi worked -- yet in the end didn't make a difference, and leaves them now without their (arguably) best pitcher for presumably the rest of this road set.
Plus the biggest poison pill of them all — starting JBJ instead of letting Beni go 1 for 4 with a single and losing 1-0.
 

RedOctober3829

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The more I reflect on last night's/this morning's game, despite the loss I feel more and more of a sense of pride and appreciation of what we are watching. I was skeptical on their chances coming into the playoffs because they had never had playoff success as a group. I did not know how the bullpen would react under the bright lights because they were scuffling for a while coming into October. There were a lot of question marks.

Well, I couldn't be prouder of what we are witnessing. The all-in approach by Alex Cora is so refreshing in today's game and the fact that the players(pitching staff mostly but everyone is doing it) are buying in and are willing to take the ball whenever the situation presents itself is awe-inspiring. Personally Nathan Eovaldi, David Price, and Rick Porcello have earned so much respect and admiration from me and I'm assuming all Red Sox fans for what they have done so far. It reminds me so much of the guys on the 2004 team. These guys in particular don't even have to be told to put their spikes on. They come to the ballpark ready to go and not worried about pitch count, days of rest, etc. It will be the same today from the rest of the pen. Eovaldi is down? So what. Whoever the starter is plus Barnes/Brasier/Kelly are ready to go and pick up where Eovaldi left off

The negativity that I'm reading in this thread this morning is frankly BS. Haven't they shown enough this postseason already not to doubt what they are capable of doing today and the rest of the series?
 

bigq

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Mad props to Vazquez for his play at first base, having never done that in the bigs before.
I did not pick up on that during the broadcast. May have been one of the times I fell asleep. I saw him playing first and assumed he had experience there. He did a good job. Crazy game that could have gone either way.
 

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Cora made two huge mistakes last night that were kind of lost in Kinsler's shittiness.

Pitching to Puig with Barnes on deck and a base open never should have happened. I understand not wanting to put the winning run on base, but there were two outs and you only need to get the guy at the plate. The difference between the options was too great to take that chance.

The Vaz bunt was a terrible idea that wasn't executed well, either. Maybe you'd give up an out for a base with a good hitter coming up, but Leon was on deck. And Madea was having trouble throwing strikes. Why give him a break?
You're judging the decisions based on the results. Kinsler makes that play properly -- either by eating the ball or taking the moment to steady himself -- and neither of those "huge mistakes" are mistakes