That was then: Celebrating what was

InstaFace

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When was the last time a team won the Super Bowl after losing it the previous year? If the Pats win Sunday, in a way it might be the most impressive thing they have accomplished over the last 18 years. And that's saying something. Simply put, teams fall apart after losing Super Bowls.
There have been a greater number of teams who lost the super bowl the year after winning it, however.

1978: Dallas Cowboys, having won SB12, lose SB13 to the Steelers
1983: Washington Area, having won SB17, lose SB18 to the Raiders
1997: Green Bay Packers, having won SB31, lose SB32 to the Broncos
2014: Seattle Seahawks, having won SB48, lose SB49 to the Patriots
2017: NE Patriots, having won SB51, lose SB52 to the Eagles
 

Ralphwiggum

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Other than the Broncos, the losing SB team has pretty much just faded away, none of them have even made it back. The last teams to lose a Super Bowl and then make it back to another were totally different teams by the time they made it back (Seattle 2005 - 2013, Philly 2004 - 2017, Carolina 2003 - 2015).

Edit: Oh, and the Rams 2001 - 2018 of course. Interesting that the Pats were involved in either the first or 2nd (or both) matchups all four times.
 

tims4wins

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Other than the Broncos, the losing SB team has pretty much just faded away, none of them have even made it back. The last teams to lose a Super Bowl and then make it back to another were totally different teams by the time they made it back (Seattle 2005 - 2013, Philly 2004 - 2017, Carolina 2003 - 2015).

Edit: Oh, and the Rams 2001 - 2018 of course. Interesting that the Pats were involved in either the first or 2nd (or both) matchups all four times.
The 2015 Broncos were a miracle champion. So so so so many things had to go right for them to get there.
 

Super Nomario

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Other than the Broncos, the losing SB team has pretty much just faded away, none of them have even made it back. The last teams to lose a Super Bowl and then make it back to another were totally different teams by the time they made it back (Seattle 2005 - 2013, Philly 2004 - 2017, Carolina 2003 - 2015).

Edit: Oh, and the Rams 2001 - 2018 of course. Interesting that the Pats were involved in either the first or 2nd (or both) matchups all four times.
The Pats of course also lost the 2011 Super Bowl and returned (victoriously!) for the 2014 one.
 

Ralphwiggum

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The Pats of course also lost the 2011 Super Bowl and returned (victoriously!) for the 2014 one.
Yes, I didn't really finish my thought, but the Pats lost in 2007, made it back in 2011 and again in 2014. Lost again last year and made it back again this year. They are an outlier in this regard just like in so many others.
 

dynomite

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It’s interesting — in terms of Super Bowl losers coming back strong, the Bills and their 4 consecutive losses in Super Bowls were such a defining memory of my childhood that I’m surprised making it back after losing one is seen as an achievement now, although it’s certainly become rarer.

Despite being a Patriots fan I admit that I rooted for those Bills teams in the Super Bowls. AFC and all that, and I liked Thurman Thomas and Bruce Smith.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I rooted for the Bills in all four of those Super Bowls. First, the Pats were horrible and the only team that I somewhat considered a rival worth caring about was Miami because fuck Don Shula, I had no real reason to hate the Bills. Second, I always hated the Cowboys, and Giants fans are often MFY fans so fuck them too. Washington I didn’t hate and it was before I was disgusted by their racist team name, but I was still marginally rooting for the Bills in that game.
 

kenneycb

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Just watched that hype video from a couple pages back. Only quibble was not using Goucher's call for Bergeron's goal against the Leafs. Just an amazing video.
 

BlackJack

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I’m gonna assume no one has ever won a Super Bowl, lost the next one, and won the one after that.
Since this is only the 3rd time that a team has made 3 straight Super Bowls (Miami: L, W, W and Buffalo: L, L, L, L) that's a pretty safe bet.

Of course, since there are only 52 games in the book, it's pretty easy to check stuff like this...

http://www.espn.com/nfl/superbowl/history/winners
 

wiffleballhero

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In the simulacrum
This season's patriots are the first SB loser to return the next year since Buffalo ... and Buffalo ... and Buffalo
I was pretty sick of the Bills by the end of all of that, but in retrospect, it is pretty impressive that they were able to have that run when it seems like many teams would just crater after something like the Norwood miss -- the first and only of those games where they really should have won it.

That was also a period, IIRC, where it seemed that each year the top 3 NFC teams would have all looked dominant in the AFC side of the bracket.
 

loshjott

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Yeah for a while there in the 80s-90s the NFCCG was much more compelling than the Super Bowl. Niners and Washington dominated the 80s-early 90s with the 85 Bears and the Parcells/BB Giants thrown in for good measure. Then the Cowboys.
 

BernieRicoBoomer

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This is another good one from Sally Jenkins I haven't seen posted yet:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-patriots-secret-is-focusing-on-the-details-every-last-detail/2019/01/31/87726362-255d-11e9-ad53-824486280311_story.html?utm_term=.88d868a2f5b3

Couple of my favorites from the article:

“Lot of guys, you see them toss the ball to the ref,” Wayne says. Not the Patriots. “You don’t know if the ref can catch or not, so if they drop that ball and it’s bouncing around, that’s time running off the clock.” The Patriots were drilled to sprint to the ref and hand it to him, to get a quicker spot and save a second. They would “go over and over and over it,” Wayne said, and didn’t seem to resent the monotony.

The Patriots long have been accused of practicing dark arts, but there is no swallowable pill or spying or ball deflation ploy that is a shortcut to their substance.
 

BaseballJones

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Great article. People want to talk about how BB skirts the rules or whatever, but whenever anyone actually pays attention to their organization, they ALWAYS come away with this incredible impression of the value the Patriots put on attention to detail, work ethic, high standards, accountability, etc. Remember during Deflategate how BB talked about how they practice with the footballs being wet, slick, etc., something that seemed pretty rare among NFL teams, in order to get the players used to handling cold, wet footballs?

It's amazing. There are lots of reasons for their success, but haters just cannot seem to wrap their heads around the idea that they are just BETTER at this than everyone else.
 

loshjott

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So true. They are just better. It sometimes amazes me when other teams actually beat them. Seriously.
What's also amazing is that we don't hear about other teams doing similar things. I mean, practicing with wet footballs is not exactly a genius maneuver.

I can't imagine 31 other teams allow players to come in late or run soft, slow practices all the time.

I guess it's the case of most teams are doing things 90-98% "right" and that extra 2% makes the difference in the handful of plays that decide close games.
 

tims4wins

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What's also amazing is that we don't hear about other teams doing similar things. I mean, practicing with wet footballs is not exactly a genius maneuver.

I can't imagine 31 other teams allow players to come in late or run soft, slow practices all the time.

I guess it's the case of most teams are doing things 90-98% "right" and that extra 2% makes the difference in the handful of plays that decide close games.
Think about how thin the margin is in so many of these games. That 2% might be all the difference in the world over these last 18 years.
 

BigSoxFan

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So true. They are just better. It sometimes amazes me when other teams actually beat them. Seriously.
Many of the Pats’ Brady playoff losses have been result of being phyisically overwhelmed, typically at the line or just being at a big talent disadvantage (2013 Broncos or 2006 Colts due to the illnesses). Last year was tough to take because it felt like the first playoff loss in a while where the other team didn’t physically overwhelm us but merely out-executed.
 

tims4wins

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Many of the Pats’ Brady playoff losses have been result of being phyisically overwhelmed, typically at the line or just being at a big talent disadvantage (2013 Broncos or 2006 Colts due to the illnesses). Last year was tough to take because it felt like the first playoff loss in a while where the other team didn’t physically overwhelm us but merely out-executed.
Agreed. But as has been proven time and again - other methods are not sustainable in the long haul.
 

Ralphwiggum

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It is really, really hard to both have the attention to detail necessary to think about all of the little things that might matter, and also to not get lackadaisical about them over time. Most people who do the same job for 18 years get complacent, I know I would, hell I am only 6 months into a new job and there are aspects of it that I already don't focus on enough. But I've worked with some amazing people who just have an insane ability to stay focused on the details even when most people would kind of just assume the little stuff was taken care of. I find those people to be exceptionally rare, I don't see why the universe of head football coaches would be any different. BB's ability to stay motivated, his insane focus on detail, and his never ending quest to tweak and adjust his system to stay one step ahead of the rest of the league is what sets him apart.
 

tims4wins

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Not sure where else to put this but I’ve been watching the 2003 AFCCG the last few days. Hell of a fun game. But I had completely forgotten how bad of a decision Tony Dungy made late in the 4th. Down by 14 with 2:30 to play, the Colts scored a TD to bring it within 7. They had all 3 timeouts and the two minute warning left. Their D hadn’t played awesome, but it was hanging in there. And Saint Dungy called a “surprise” onsides kick. The Pats of course were not fooled in the least, easily recovered, then went 3 and out. So the Colts got it back on their own 20 after a touchback instead of sat 20-30 yards better field position.

The moral, as always, is fuck Tony Dungy.
 

Bowhemian

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Not sure where else to put this but I’ve been watching the 2003 AFCCG the last few days. Hell of a fun game. But I had completely forgotten how bad of a decision Tony Dungy made late in the 4th. Down by 14 with 2:30 to play, the Colts scored a TD to bring it within 7. They had all 3 timeouts and the two minute warning left. Their D hadn’t played awesome, but it was hanging in there. And Saint Dungy called a “surprise” onsides kick. The Pats of course were not fooled in the least, easily recovered, then went 3 and out. So the Colts got it back on their own 20 after a touchback instead of sat 20-30 yards better field position.

The moral, as always, is fuck Tony Dungy.
I enjoyed your conclusion.
 

johnmd20

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I was pretty sick of the Bills by the end of all of that, but in retrospect, it is pretty impressive that they were able to have that run when it seems like many teams would just crater after something like the Norwood miss -- the first and only of those games where they really should have won it.

That was also a period, IIRC, where it seemed that each year the top 3 NFC teams would have all looked dominant in the AFC side of the bracket.
The problem with the Bills wasn't that they were always in the Super Bowl. The problem was, for three straight games, after the Giants one, the Super Bowls were absolutely terrible games.

At least with the Pats in the Super Bowl, you get your money's worth. 2015, 2017, and 2018 were all ridiculously entertaining games. Obviously both Giants' super bowls came down to the last play, too.

The Bills just got rocked. The Pats provide history and entertainment.
 

8slim

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What's also amazing is that we don't hear about other teams doing similar things. I mean, practicing with wet footballs is not exactly a genius maneuver.

I can't imagine 31 other teams allow players to come in late or run soft, slow practices all the time.

I guess it's the case of most teams are doing things 90-98% "right" and that extra 2% makes the difference in the handful of plays that decide close games.
Watching 'Hard Knocks' is a wonderful way to appreciate what Belichick does with the Pats. This season was more stark than most, the Browns' training camp under Hugh Jackson was a total dumpster fire of lackadaisical practices, inattention to detail, divided coaching approaches and warring personalities.

Over and over again ex-Patriots talk about how they were dramatically better prepared under Belichick at any other place they had ever played.

I honestly think it's more than just 2% most of the time. It may be that slim at this point in the season, I suspect McVay is a great coach. But compared to the majority of the league the Pats seem to be miles better in their approach.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Some observations about Super Bowl 38:

- Man, that INT Brady threw versus Carolina in SB 38 is probably his worst postseason play all things considered.-

- Also, the Panthers completely fucked the end of that game. First, Delhomme, with the Panthers down 29-22 with under 2 minutes left and the ball at the Patriots 45, hit Proehl down the seam for 30 yards. Fox CALLS A TIMEOUT with 1:43 left on the clock and the ball at the 15 yard line. What the hell? If you get the ball inside of the 20 with over 90 seconds left, you hold on to those timeouts unless absolutely necessary. You can tie the game and draw the clock down as much as possible to maximize the odds of getting the game into overtime, or, alternatively, if you hold the TO you might actually get the ball back before regulation ends. Second, the John Kasay kickoff OOB. All-time chokejob; the ball is on a fucking tee, there's no rush, and it's a kick he's probably attempted thousands of times. He probably did that, what, 1-2 times in his career? And one comes in the most pivotal moment of the Super Bowl?

- The Pats inexplicably didn't draw the clock down to 3-4 seconds after Tom hit Branch inside of the Panthers 30 with under 10 seconds left in regulation. That ensured that AV's eventual game winner wasn't the last play of the game. A little odd. Maybe they were hedging against a bad snap on the kick, figuring that Carolina was like 1 in 100,000 or something to score on the ensuing kickoff.

- Rodney totally breaks his forearm tackling Muhsin Muhammad near the sideline (I believe he initially hurt it on the play before). On the Panthers last offensive possession, Gumbel reports that Harrison is expected to return to the game. About a minute later they show Harrison being escorted to the locker room with a sling on his arm and a trainer stabilizing it. Ha.

- The safeties were complete and utter dogshit in the second half, especially the fourth quarter. The secondary busts were markedly worse than what went down against Philly last year.
 

tims4wins

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He threw a bad pick in the end zone of the 2003 AFCCG as well, with the Pats up 14 in the 4th quarter where a FG would have effectively iced the game.

Of course the Champ Bailey play, which I wouldn't rate as that horrible of a play by Brady. Ditto the Robert Alford pick. The first Seattle pick was awful too.

But yeah that was a really bad pick.
 

johnmd20

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He threw a bad pick in the end zone of the 2003 AFCCG as well, with the Pats up 14 in the 4th quarter where a FG would have effectively iced the game.

Of course the Champ Bailey play, which I wouldn't rate as that horrible of a play by Brady. Ditto the Robert Alford pick. The first Seattle pick was awful too.

But yeah that was a really bad pick.
For as incredible as Brady has been, and he's been one of a kind, his goal line INTs in the playoffs have all been pretty horrific, and there have been a bunch of them, including in the last game versus KC. But I hope that KC pick got it out of his system.
 

tims4wins

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For as incredible as Brady has been, and he's been one of a kind, his goal line INTs in the playoffs have all been pretty horrific, and there have been a bunch of them, including in the last game versus KC. But I hope that KC pick got it out of his system.
True, although watching the Peyton Manning breakdown, I don't rate that pick quite as badly.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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Also not right on goal line and not in SB but he threw a real head scratcher of a pick against the Jets in the playoffs one year, I think on the 1st drive of the game when the Pats were moving nicely down the field.
 

Rook05

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They’ve had some brutal red zone turnovers that would get more attention if not for the insane sustained success.

#LaurenceMaroney
 

tims4wins

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Also not right on goal line and not in SB but he threw a real head scratcher of a pick against the Jets in the playoffs one year, I think on the 1st drive of the game when the Pats were moving nicely down the field.
It was actually on a screen pass, he floated it over the intended receiver (Woodhead I think) right into the Jets defender's hands.

Edit: also fuck Alge Crumpler for dropping an easy TD that could have changed that game entirely
 

tims4wins

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It was Law Firm, not Woodhead. Ugh. That as awful
Everyone blames Chung for the failed fake punt, and it was a big play, but the pick as well as the Crumpler drop were bigger plays IMO. The Pats easily marched the field a couple times early only to come away with 3 points. Could have easily had 14.
 

Leather

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That Jets game was the most irritating loss as far as I’m concerned. Others were worse, but none have just left me annoyed like that one. Ugh. It just felt like they couldn’t get out of their own way against a team they should have killed and then had a good path to the SB.

Wasn’t that the game where they kept talking about brady’s No INT streak and he broke it in the worst possible way? Jesus. More than any game I recall it really struck the “wait this is bullshit press the reset button because this shouldn’t happen” chord.
 

johnmd20

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Everyone blames Chung for the failed fake punt, and it was a big play, but the pick as well as the Crumpler drop were bigger plays IMO. The Pats easily marched the field a couple times early only to come away with 3 points. Could have easily had 14.
Going back over the years, the only two games the Pats lost in the playoffs that were really never in doubt was that game against the Ravens when it was 21-0 after about 33 seconds of game clock and that game in Denver in January of 2014. The Pats just weren't that good that year and they probably would have gotten smoked by Seattle anyway.

17 years of playoffs, 5 super bowl wins, and only two games where the Pats weren't relevant.
 

tims4wins

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That Jets game was the most irritating loss as far as I’m concerned. Others were worse, but none have just left me annoyed like that one. Ugh. It just felt like they couldn’t get out of their own way against a team they should have killed and then had a good path to the SB.

Wasn’t that the game where they kept talking about brady’s No INT streak and he broke it in the worst possible way? Jesus. More than any game I recall it really struck the “wait this is bullshit press the reset button because this shouldn’t happen” chord.
Yes yes and yes
 

dynomite

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Everyone blames Chung for the failed fake punt, and it was a big play, but the pick as well as the Crumpler drop were bigger plays IMO. The Pats easily marched the field a couple times early only to come away with 3 points. Could have easily had 14.
That Jets game was the most irritating loss as far as I’m concerned. Others were worse, but none have just left me annoyed like that one. Ugh. It just felt like they couldn’t get out of their own way against a team they should have killed and then had a good path to the SB.

Wasn’t that the game where they kept talking about brady’s No INT streak and he broke it in the worst possible way? Jesus. More than any game I recall it really struck the “wait this is bullshit press the reset button because this shouldn’t happen” chord.
Absolutely, I think about that game all the time. Obviously nothing will ever match the abject despair after the Scottish Game. But the fact that the 2010 Pats had beaten all four Conference Championship teams (Packers, Bears, Steelers, Jets) grinds my gears.

Throughout that Jets game the Patriots just kept making mistake after mistake, blowing plays and missing opportunities. Just take the 1st half:
  • Welker sitting on the first drive (an early echo of the Butler benching), which ended in the terrible INT on the overthrow of Law Firm
  • The Crumpler drop costs us 4 points
  • On 3rd & 2 down 7-3 in the middle of the 2nd quarter, Brady doesn't see Woodhead is wide open in the flat. We punt.
  • On 3rd & 4 down 7-3 at the end of the half, Brady doesn't see Welker open at the first down marker. Leading to...
  • The Chung Fake Punt from our 38, down 7-3. I actually think this play is appropriately infamous. I understand the logic to a degree -- they had 7 blockers going against 6 Jets,so Chung probably thought he could get through... but WHY RISK IT!?!? Ugh.
  • And then after the fake punt, we have the Jets at 3rd and 5 at the 15. The Pats decide to all-out blitz with 7 guys and Braylon Edwards catches a pass at the 9 with McCourty all over him and carries DMC and Meriweather into the end zone.
Edit: Since this is the Celebrating What It Is thread, just remember: this is probably the Jets organization best win since 1969. One Divisional Round playoff game. Think about that.
 

Dotrat

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I keep trying to explain to my non-sports-fan wife how extraordinary and incredible 6 SB wins are--and I can barely get my head around it myself.
 

Ramon AC

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Respect. Not my team, and my wife and kids are hardcore Steelers fans. But I can't not be overwhelmed by the success this team has had. I will never, ever see anything like this again. More titles than Jeter. Respect.

Now go beat Jordan.