Al Horford: he gawn

DJnVa

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I don't see how anyone can defend his misread of Horford's market.
I'm confused---it was a player option. There was nothing Danny could do. He couldn't trade him in-season, and once season was over, whatever Danny thought of Al's market is irrelevant when Al can opt out. At that point, the market is what it is--Al was always going to opt out and see.
 

Cellar-Door

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I don't see how anyone can defend his misread of Horford's market.

I agree that trading Horford in February would have been silly, but I hear there was another player on the market in February and was told for months that only Boston had enough pieces to get him. Perhaps adding one of the best 5 players in the league is something that should take more urgency in a GM's head if he realizes that his two best players can leave him with nothing this summer.
Anthony Davis? I mean,.... he couldn't trade for him in February, it was literally a CBA violation. And I'm not sure why you think knowing that you are losing your 2 best players (which he didn't really know) would make you give up more now to get Anthony Davis, who pretty clearly didn't want to be here, and could walk in a year.
 

cheech13

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I just don't see how this can be construed as a good thing for the Celtics side. They can rebuild around Tatum and Brown while still having Horford on the team as a veteran clubhouse leader and quality all-around player. We're won't be bad enough to tank, so his presence won't hurt us from that perspective. And in a couple years, he'd be an expiring contract Danny could potentially use to get some additional help. We're losing that ability for nothing.

If Horford can get more money and/or a chance at a ring somewhere else, I don't begrudge him. He's earned that opportunity.
Put it this way: Let's say in two years Tatum is an All-Star, Brown has become a two-way stud, and the Memphis pick has yielded another bright young star. Do you want 35-year-old Al Horford playing 15 minutes a game and soaking up 25% of your cap, or do you want $25MM to go and spend on another young piece to add to that core?
 

djbayko

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Put it this way: Let's say in two years Tatum is an All-Star, Brown has become a two-way stud, and the Memphis pick has yielded another bright young star. Do you want 35-year-old Al Horford playing 15 minutes a game and soaking up 25% of your cap, or do you want $25MM to go and spend on another young piece to add to that core?
Isn't that where the expiring contract as trade bait part of my post comes into the picture?
 

BigSoxFan

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Gordon Hayward’s ankle exploding five minutes into his Celtics’ career is the definition of bad luck. Davis being recruited by LeBron while still in New Orleans was also bad luck that he couldn’t control.
Not really bad luck but the Derrick Rose rule is literally the only reason why we didn’t get Kyrie/AD for 1.5 years and who knows what happens if they actually got chance to play together.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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I don't see how anyone can defend his misread of Horford's market.

I agree that trading Horford in February would have been silly, but I hear there was another player on the market in February and was told for months that only Boston had enough pieces to get him. Perhaps adding one of the best 5 players in the league is something that should take more urgency in a GM's head if he realizes that his two best players can leave him with nothing this summer.
The only way the Celtics could have legally traded for Davis was including Kyrie in the deal, and given that he was bolting after the season anyways, why would New Orleans do that deal?
 

djbayko

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I don't see how anyone can defend his misread of Horford's market.

I agree that trading Horford in February would have been silly, but I hear there was another player on the market in February and was told for months that only Boston had enough pieces to get him. Perhaps adding one of the best 5 players in the league is something that should take more urgency in a GM's head if he realizes that his two best players can leave him with nothing this summer.
This was unpossible.
 

bankshot1

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I don't see how anyone can defend his misread of Horford's market.

I agree that trading Horford in February would have been silly, but I hear there was another player on the market in February and was told for months that only Boston had enough pieces to get him. Perhaps adding one of the best 5 players in the league is something that should take more urgency in a GM's head if he realizes that his two best players can leave him with nothing this summer.
Ainge was precluded by NBA cap rules from going after AD until KI was off his original contract.
 

cheech13

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Isn't that where the expiring contract as trade bait part of my post comes into the picture?
On a four-year contract he wouldn't be an expiring deal until the summer of 2022. That's a long time to wait for a guy to become trade bait. I'd rather just have the cap space now especially since you wouldn't be dealing with the optics of dumping a guy after six years with the team right as you're getting good again.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Sure, I get that. But I do think it is true that Horford really likes Boston. I'm just wondering how much money they expect him to leave on the table to stay with a somewhat rebuilding team.
For star NBA players, nothing is expected. They will offer him what they think makes sense for the Celtics, and if he can get more elsewhere he's gone.
I don't see how anyone can defend his misread of Horford's market.

I agree that trading Horford in February would have been silly, but I hear there was another player on the market in February and was told for months that only Boston had enough pieces to get him. Perhaps adding one of the best 5 players in the league is something that should take more urgency in a GM's head if he realizes that his two best players can leave him with nothing this summer.

You guys should be pissed at Ainge for how he has fucked up the last 6-12 months, not blaming the player (which is much less prevalent here than in the wider conversation) or talking about how unlucky Ainge is.
I don't there was any misreading of Horford's market. The Celtics have the option of offering Horford anything, up to and including the 5-year max. There was no strategic way they could lock Horford in, they could just pay him his asking price or not.

If the Celtics of recent years made mistakes, they were:
  • Choosing Kyrie as the big acquisition
  • Not going after Kawhi (which would have cost them Brown among other assets)
  • Not going all-in for AD (which would have cost them all the assets, including 2 of Tatum, Brown, Smart)
The last one is only a mistake if you think that they should have gone through with it even with Davis' camp saying he'd leave after a year.

What is going on now is just the inevitable fallout from betting heavily on the wrong horse (Kyrie) plus Hayward's freak injury.
 

BaseballJones

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Put it this way: Let's say in two years Tatum is an All-Star, Brown has become a two-way stud, and the Memphis pick has yielded another bright young star. Do you want 35-year-old Al Horford playing 15 minutes a game and soaking up 25% of your cap, or do you want $25MM to go and spend on another young piece to add to that core?
This is going to happen. Mark it down. Tatum will take 18-19 shots a game next year and be scoring around 20-22 points a game, while expanding his overall repertoire. Brown will take about 15 shots a game and average about 18-20 points while being an elite defender. They will be 21 and 22 years old, respectively, not yet even in the first years of their primes. Neither may end up being a 29-30 points a game scorer, but they will both be all-star caliber players.
 

djbayko

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On a four-year contract he wouldn't be an expiring deal until the summer of 2022. That's a long time to wait for a guy to become trade bait. I'd rather just have the cap space now especially since you wouldn't be dealing with the optics of dumping a guy after six years with the team right as you're getting good again.
I'm going on the earlier reports that he was going to re-sign here for 3. We now know that most likely isn't possible. And that's exactly why I'm saying what happened here can't be construed as good for the Celtics.

It seems like we're agreeing more than anything and just looking at it from a different vantage point :)
 

Devizier

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I mean Ainge did whiff when he built the medium term contender around Kyrie. That’s not a major strike against him, he took a good shot at it and it didn’t work out. But not working out and whiffing are basically the same thing.

Besides, it’s not like it was unknown at the time that Kyrie might bring chemistry issues.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't see how anyone can defend his misread of Horford's market.

I agree that trading Horford in February would have been silly, but I hear there was another player on the market in February and was told for months that only Boston had enough pieces to get him. Perhaps adding one of the best 5 players in the league is something that should take more urgency in a GM's head if he realizes that his two best players can leave him with nothing this summer.

You guys should be pissed at Ainge for how he has fucked up the last 6-12 months, not blaming the player (which is much less prevalent here than in the wider conversation) or talking about how unlucky Ainge is.
I'm sure as hell grateful that he didn't trade away a million draft picks for AD.
 

OnWisc

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For star NBA players, nothing is expected. They will offer him what they think makes sense for the Celtics, and if he can get more elsewhere he's gone.
I don't there was any misreading of Horford's market. The Celtics have the option of offering Horford anything, up to and including the 5-year max. There was no strategic way they could lock Horford in, they could just pay him his asking price or not.

If the Celtics of recent years made mistakes, they were:
  • Choosing Kyrie as the big acquisition
  • Not going after Kawhi (which would have cost them Brown among other assets)
  • Not going all-in for AD (which would have cost them all the assets, including 2 of Tatum, Brown, Smart)
The last one is only a mistake if you think that they should have gone through with it even with Davis' camp saying he'd leave after a year.

What is going on now is just the inevitable fallout from betting heavily on the wrong horse (Kyrie) plus Hayward's freak injury.
I don't really view Kyrie as a big acquisition. Not in that he wasn't a big name, but more that I don't think we moved a whole lot of assets for him. It was basically an unprotected pick from an improving Brooklyn club and Crowder. I'm not sure there were numerous counterparties with stars on the block for that package and Ainge just happened to make the mistake of selecting Kyrie. Given that Kyrie wanted out, Cleveland was likely attracted to the optics of at least getting back an unprotected pick and a big name, despite the acknowledged odds that the pick would fall and the star was cooked. I suspect that when you look at the caliber of player those assets would have returned from other clubs, Kyrie was an extreme outlier. Perhaps Kyrie's presence on the Celtics led to Ainge being more conservative in going after those other assets (or prevented it entirely in the case of AD), but the package of assets it would have taken to land them likely dwarfed what he gave up for Kyrie.

I don't get some of the doom & gloom in the wake of Horford's departure. If Lady Luck has now kneecapped us down to a .500 or sub .500 club built around Brown and Tatum, it's hard to see how much Horford's presence would make much of a difference as to where we ultimately end up next spring.

I certainly won't have the expectations I had heading into the last two seasons, but I will enjoy watching next year's club far more than I did this past vintage.
 
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bigq

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I don't know if my observation - and it wasn't a prediction - was all that bold. I was very careful to use the phrases "all else equal" and "lucky to finish much above .500". In other words, I wasn't trying to say they would nor was I assuming that the roster is anywhere near finished. I trust Ainge will add some pieces and he may yet have some rabbits up his sleeve.

However his options are limited with the current cap situation and the outcome gets even more uncertain with a larger tail to the downside if they renounce everyone to free up space. In short, the Celtics will need to replace a starting PG and two back-up PGs as well as a starting four/five player. Their in-house solutions for those spots very limited so they are going to have to find solutions on the cheap unless Ainge can put together a trade. It should be noted that unlike recent years, Ainge is in a weaker negotiating position given all the headlines around the team so that may impact his ability to "win" a deal like he has over the past few seasons.

That said, if you consider my statement as a hot take, you are entirely right to call me on it. Its only fair.
Giving you a good natured hard time. I think you are on pretty solid ground and you consistently provide some of the most well thought out Port Cellar posts. ;)

It is fascinating how quickly the Celtics landscape has changed. Danny really has his work cut out for him. Now is the time for him to earn his pay. Seems a tall task and I hope he is up for it health wise. I’m sure he has a lot of ideas but he must be way past Plan A, B, C at this point.

I’m looking forward to seeing how things unfold. :popcorn:

The off-season may prove to be more entertaining than the regular season and playoffs.
 

lexrageorge

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90% of the root causes of the Celtics "collapse" (maybe too strong, but you get the idea) were truly outside of Ainge's control. That's not making excuses; that's just indisputable fact.

Maybe Ainge could have addressed some of the roster issues going into this season, but those issues had their own complexities. It's not clear that trading Morris or Rozier would have helped matters. And even if he did, it's not clear either move would have made Kyrie stay, who seems to have his own reasons for leaving. I mean, Ainge could have completely remade the roster over the next 30 days, and Kyrie still wouldn't give Ainge any assurances. And the initial Kyrie trade seemed like such an no-brainer at the time; Kyrie for a lottery pick (and flotsam) that is likely to be nowhere near as good as Kyrie is a trade you make all the time.

Still not sure the magnitude of the disconnect with Horford; the reporting on this has been really weird so far.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Ainge isn't unlucky here, this is just a GM whiff. He either misread Horford's market or missed the opportunity to maximize the value of the Horford asset by failing to recognize that Horford, like Kyrie, wasn't staying in Boston. Either way, that is on the GM.


I don't see how anyone can defend his misread of Horford's market.

I agree that trading Horford in February would have been silly, but I hear there was another player on the market in February and was told for months that only Boston had enough pieces to get him. Perhaps adding one of the best 5 players in the league is something that should take more urgency in a GM's head if he realizes that his two best players can leave him with nothing this summer.

You guys should be pissed at Ainge for how he has fucked up the last 6-12 months, not blaming the player (which is much less prevalent here than in the wider conversation) or talking about how unlucky Ainge is.
Gunfighter is one of the few people who have had a worse day than Ainge.
 

DJnVa

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Still not sure the magnitude of the disconnect with Horford; the reporting on this has been really weird so far.
I'm not sure there was disconnect. I think the media assumed some things were happening and apparently they weren't, since we've heard now that Horford had informed the Celtics that he was likely moving on.
 

cheech13

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I'm not sure there was disconnect. I think the media assumed some things were happening and apparently they weren't, since we've heard now that Horford had informed the Celtics that he was likely moving on.
Horford left a good situation in Atlanta when it was apparent they were pivoting from contending to a rebuild. It shouldn't be a surprise that he'd do the same in Boston. A week ago it looked like he could be on a team with Kyrie and AD and now that possibility is gone. Horford probably thought he was coming back but circumstances changed quickly and the reporting is just reflecting that.
 

Gunfighter 09

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Anthony Davis? I mean,.... he couldn't trade for him in February, it was literally a CBA violation. And I'm not sure why you think knowing that you are losing your 2 best players (which he didn't really know) would make you give up more now to get Anthony Davis, who pretty clearly didn't want to be here, and could walk in a year.
Not really bad luck but the Derrick Rose rule is literally the only reason why we didn’t get Kyrie/AD for 1.5 years and who knows what happens if they actually got chance to play together.
The only way the Celtics could have legally traded for Davis was including Kyrie in the deal, and given that he was bolting after the season anyways, why would New Orleans do that deal?
This was unpossible.
Ainge was precluded by NBA cap rules from going after AD until KI was off his original contract.
Ah.. right. Forgot that part about AD to the Celtics. I'm an idiot. I will return to my policy of not commenting about the Celtics in here after this post.

I am very surprised by the pro Ainge reaction that losing Kyrie and Horford is getting. I expected the pitchforks and torches to at least be inventoried and ready if not all the way out after not trading for PG, Kawhi and AD when you had the acknowledged best package and clearly misreading his own roster and where the league will be next year. Winning a title 11 years ago and turning over the Big 3 teams into being competitive the last few years while finding one of the best young coaches in the league should build him some good will but I am surprised by the loyalty here.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Ah.. right. Forgot that part about AD to the Celtics. I'm an idiot. I will return to my policy of not commenting about the Celtics in here after this post.
There isn't a regular poster here who hasn't made a ridiculous claim or screwed up details. Don't sweat it.

I am very surprised by the pro Ainge reaction that losing Kyrie and Horford is getting. I expected the pitchforks and torches to at least be inventoried and ready if not all the way out after not trading for PG, Kawhi and AD when you had the acknowledged best package and clearly misreading his own roster and where the league will be next year. Winning a title 11 years ago and turning over the Big 3 teams into being competitive the last few years while finding one of the best young coaches in the league should build him some good will but I am surprised by the loyalty here.
I don't think it is as much goodwill as it is the recognition that both players had PLAYER OPTIONS which both were always going to decline. Once Kyrie left it made sense for Horford to do so as well expecially if Ainge was reluctant to guarantee a 4th year for Horford which many here weren't in favor of doing anyway.
 

tims4wins

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The off-season may prove to be more entertaining than the regular season and playoffs.
This is more of a general comment, but this seems to be representative of the entire NBA, really. While the Finals were going on most of the talk was about KD, AD, Kawhi, Kyrie, etc. It's always about which big stars are going to be free agents and when and where will they go. The on-court product seems secondary. It's all fascinating but it seems like it is never enough about the current teams and playoffs and more about the pending summer. It is a far, far, far, different dynamic than any of the other major pro sports. Part of that is due to how much influence the super duper stars have in terms of W/L impact.

I know we've had threads about this before, but removing the individual player max would lead to a much more interesting league IMO.
 

Average Game James

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I know we've had threads about this before, but removing the individual player max would lead to a much more interesting league IMO.
I’m a huge proponent of eliminating the individual max contract. It would certainly lead to a broader distribution of talent... BUT, it’s hard to say league isn’t interesting right now. It’s partly due to injuries, but when was the last time there was so little certainty over the favorites to reach the finals next season?
 

tims4wins

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I’m a huge proponent of eliminating the individual max contract. It would certainly lead to a broader distribution of talent... BUT, it’s hard to say league isn’t interesting right now. It’s partly due to injuries, but when was the last time there was so little certainty over the favorites to reach the finals next season?
True. Maybe I should have worded it differently. A much more competitive league each October once the games actually begin?
 

Average Game James

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True. Maybe I should have worded it differently. A much more competitive league each October once the games actually begin?
I mean, this is just me, but no matter how the offseason dominos fall, I don’t think there is a prohibitive favorite to win either conference a la GS the last few years or the LeBron Cavs. Maybe if Milwaukee loses Middleton and Brogdon without corresponding big signings and Kawhi goes to LAC and the 76ers keep their guys Philly becomes a heavy EC favorite. But the West will be loaded once again without a clear favorite unless you really believe in LeBron, AD, and filler.
 

tims4wins

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I mean, this is just me, but no matter how the offseason dominos fall, I don’t think there is a prohibitive favorite to win either conference a la GS the last few years or the LeBron Cavs. Maybe if Milwaukee loses Middleton and Brogdon without corresponding big signings and Kawhi goes to LAC and the 76ers keep their guys Philly becomes a heavy EC favorite. But the West will be loaded once again without a clear favorite unless you really believe in LeBron, AD, and filler.
Right - this year. But not if KD and Klay were healthy. I mean perennially.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is more of a general comment, but this seems to be representative of the entire NBA, really. While the Finals were going on most of the talk was about KD, AD, Kawhi, Kyrie, etc. It's always about which big stars are going to be free agents and when and where will they go. The on-court product seems secondary. It's all fascinating but it seems like it is never enough about the current teams and playoffs and more about the pending summer. It is a far, far, far, different dynamic than any of the other major pro sports. Part of that is due to how much influence the super duper stars have in terms of W/L impact.

I know we've had threads about this before, but removing the individual player max would lead to a much more interesting league IMO.
It's the middle of June and every Woj Bomb gets record views, there are dozens upon dozens of shows specifically targeting the NBA draft and FA, while tomorrow night the Draft will likely have record ratings.......I'd say it's pretty interesting as currently constructed.

Edit: Posted before seeing your clarification above.
 

mcpickl

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Put it this way: Let's say in two years Tatum is an All-Star, Brown has become a two-way stud, and the Memphis pick has yielded another bright young star. Do you want 35-year-old Al Horford playing 15 minutes a game and soaking up 25% of your cap, or do you want $25MM to go and spend on another young piece to add to that core?
I'd want Al Horford plaing 28 minutes a game, don't know why you think he could only play 15 minutes two years from now, and playing a similar role that he is now.

You think because Horford is gone they'll have 25M in cap space? In two years Jaylen and Jayson will be off of their rookie contracts. If they're as you call them, an All Star and a two way stud, they're going to be expensive. Unless they have no one else on the team making any money, odds are really strong you won't have 25M to spend. In the meantime, you're worse the next two years.
 

bowiac

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Ah.. right. Forgot that part about AD to the Celtics. I'm an idiot. I will return to my policy of not commenting about the Celtics in here after this post.

I am very surprised by the pro Ainge reaction that losing Kyrie and Horford is getting. I expected the pitchforks and torches to at least be inventoried and ready if not all the way out after not trading for PG, Kawhi and AD when you had the acknowledged best package and clearly misreading his own roster and where the league will be next year. Winning a title 11 years ago and turning over the Big 3 teams into being competitive the last few years while finding one of the best young coaches in the league should build him some good will but I am surprised by the loyalty here.
The lack of pitchforks is a good sign here, as opposed to ill-informed hot takes. It's not loyalty. It's the reality that nobody, including you, can point to the glaring mistakes he's made which would justify said pitchforks. Saying "dunno, just feels like they should have done something!" is not a coherent criticism.
 

nighthob

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The lack of pitchforks is a good sign here, as opposed to ill-informed hot takes. It's not loyalty. It's the reality that nobody, including you, can point to the glaring mistakes he's made which would justify said pitchforks. Saying "dunno, just feels like they should have done something!" is not a coherent criticism.
I mean the only possible criticism I'd make is that he held on to the Davis dream too long. But when you have one of his friends under contract I can see why he'd give it his best shot. With perfect knowledge he probably deals Irving to the Clippers last winter (assuming that the West leaked stories were true), and prepares to pivot this summer. But who the hell has perfect foresight?
 

cheech13

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I'd want Al Horford plaing 28 minutes a game, don't know why you think he could only play 15 minutes two years from now, and playing a similar role that he is now.

You think because Horford is gone they'll have 25M in cap space? In two years Jaylen and Jayson will be off of their rookie contracts. If they're as you call them, an All Star and a two way stud, they're going to be expensive. Unless they have no one else on the team making any money, odds are really strong you won't have 25M to spend. In the meantime, you're worse the next two years.
The five most similar players to Horford on basketball-reference.com through 11 season (an imperfect tool, I know) are Marc Gasol, Alonzo Mourning, Clyde Lovellette, Brad Miller and Dave Cowens. Cowens and Lovellette were out of the league by age 35. Miller was a non-factor. Mourning played 20MPG but was quite diminished. Gasol isn't there yet but is coming off a season where he was useful but no longer a reliable star.

The cap space was comment was in regards to now, not two years from now. As in the opportunity cost of locking him up now at that figure cuts you off from other ways to allocate those funds that might pay off better in two to three years with Tatum/Brown core.
 

djbayko

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I mean the only possible criticism I'd make is that he held on to the Davis dream too long. But when you have one of his friends under contract I can see why he'd give it his best shot. With perfect knowledge he probably deals Irving to the Clippers last winter (assuming that the West leaked stories were true), and prepares to pivot this summer. But who the hell has perfect foresight?
Last winter, Irving didn't seem like the headache that he turned out to be this season. Bowiac had the perfect answer to GF. I'm not sure what Danny was supposed to do differently given the information he had at the time.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I am very surprised by the pro Ainge reaction that losing Kyrie and Horford is getting. I expected the pitchforks and torches to at least be inventoried and ready if not all the way out after not trading for PG, Kawhi and AD when you had the acknowledged best package and clearly misreading his own roster and where the league will be next year. Winning a title 11 years ago and turning over the Big 3 teams into being competitive the last few years while finding one of the best young coaches in the league should build him some good will but I am surprised by the loyalty here.
I think it is more about the specific deals. Hard to be too hard on Ainge for failing to sign a guy whom we aren't even sure we wanted back (Kyrie). And what Horford is doing is just what NBA stars do. I believe he does like Boston and would be happy to stay under the right circumstances, which aren't these circumstances.

I do think it is possible that the main Brooklyn trade window is closed and Ainge topped out at an game 7 ECF loss. Not all of that was his fault, but some of it was.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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I guess you could fault Ainge for not anticipating the Kyrie situation better (poor roster construction to begin the year), making no moves at the trade deadline when the team was clearly going nowhere...or, not moving Kyrie at the trade deadline, not guaranteeing the fourth year for Al...he's paid quite well to make those decisions.
Ainge wins every trade, but you actually have to make trades to have wins.
 

cheech13

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I guess you could fault Ainge for not anticipating the Kyrie situation better (poor roster construction to begin the year), making no moves at the trade deadline when the team was clearly going nowhere...or, not moving Kyrie at the trade deadline, not guaranteeing the fourth year for Al...he's paid quite well to make those decisions.
Ainge wins every trade, but you actually have to make trades to have wins.
I have to quibble a little bit with the bolded. Max players have all the leverage in these negotiations. If Boston didn't offer the fourth year option Atlanta or some other team would have and Al wouldn't have signed with the Celtics in the first place. You can't fault Ainge for paying what the market would bear.
 
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djbayko

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I have to quibble a little bit the bolded. Max players have all the leverage in those negotiations. If Boston didn't offer the fourth year option Atlanta or some other team would have and Al wouldn't signed with the Celtics in the first place. You can't fault Ainge for paying what the market would bear.
Yeah, maybe we don't get Horford without the opt out. It's not like Danny wanted to throw that in there out of the goodness of his heart.

Unless, of course, you subscribe to the "player options benefit the team, not the player" school of thought ;)
 

bowiac

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I think the clearest mistake Ainge has made recently was not trading Rozier when he had the chance. But that’s a mistake on the periphery - not something driving the rebuild we’re seeing now.

If you really want to give Ainge a hard time, you can add not trading for Kawhi to the list. He presumably passed because 1) he thought Kawhi was likely to leave after a year; 2) he didn’t want to trade Jaylen for a 1-year rental; 3) nobody knew whether Kawhi was healthy. And we’re seeing why he was afraid of the 1-year rental problem right now with Kyrie. The players have all the leverage, so trading for a guy who wants to be with the Clippers is fraught. The Raptors did it, won the title, and even now are underdogs to keep Kawhi. (And even then, we don’t know if Jaylen and Smart tops a DeRozan offer for the Spurs).

AD and Paul George were never possibilities, either due to the CBA or due to needing to keep cap space open for Hayward. Complaining about those non-moves is just nonsense.

The Celtics are in rough shape now. It sucks, and that’s about it. Getting angry at Ainge about it would be asinine given the specifics of how things went down. I’m pretty pleased there’s no “Ainge hot seat” thread here right now however. It’s just the reality of the NBA - it’s hard to win, and there’s no blueprint. Sometimes you do everything right, and it just doesn’t work out.
 

Big John

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It smells to me as though Ainge only offered three years when one or more other teams were willing to go to four. If Horford were title-driven at this point, he wouldn't be considering Dallas. If Kawhi goes to the Clippers, that's a destination that makes sense, although the Clips will need to figure out what to do with Harrell.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The Raptors did it, won the title, and even now are underdogs to keep Kawhi. (And even then, we don’t know if Jaylen and Smart tops a DeRozan offer for the Spurs).
Not to beat a dead horse but - and I know no one is going to say this publicly - but TOR was in a unique place that it didn't matter whether KL could or could not play because it's pretty clear that they thought the DeRozen/Lowry pairing had reached its ceiling.

It's a lot easier to take a gamble on a player that hadn't played the previous year because of an injury when the player you are getting rid of isn't really thought of as an asset.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Not to beat a dead horse but - and I know no one is going to say this publicly - but TOR was in a unique place that it didn't matter whether KL could or could not play because it's pretty clear that they thought the DeRozen/Lowry pairing had reached its ceiling.

It's a lot easier to take a gamble on a player that hadn't played the previous year because of an injury when the player you are getting rid of isn't really thought of as an asset.
Agreed, though I also think it's fair to grade teams on what they do (and don't do). That said, your comment---and his track record overall---is why I think the Kawhi and Rozier decisions look bad and I still think he's an elite GM. It's a tough job, and his overall record (viewed after the fact, based on results) is still very good.
 

djbayko

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It smells to me as though Ainge only offered three years when one or more other teams were willing to go to four. If Horford were title-driven at this point, he wouldn't be considering Dallas. If Kawhi goes to the Clippers, that's a destination that makes sense, although the Clips will need to figure out what to do with Harrell.
I've only seen reports that Horford is drawing interest from Dallas. One report was that the Mavs were "in play", but that could mean anything. I'm not sure we have confirmation that the interest is mutual just yet.
 

Kliq

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Losing Horford just sucks; he has been my favorite Celtic since he first started playing here. I think he did so much for this team during his time in Boston and they are going to miss him dearly, arguably more than Kyrie. There were so many little aspects of the game he nailed down; whether it was setting screens, contesting shots without fouling, covering up for other defenders' mistakes, nimbly switching onto guards, spacing the floor, firing outlet passes or tossing perfect bounce passes from the high-post, he did so much for the team that wasn't always reflected in how many points he scored or rebounds he grabbed.

That kind of made him more fun to root for; appreciation of Al Horford was like a basketball litmus test, if you thought he was overrated because he didn't score 20 ppg, it was a sign you didn't understand just how important different aspects of the game were. Part of the fun with Horford was that his game exposed blowhards like Lou Merloni, who couldn't be bothered to appreciate the subtle parts of what makes a great player great.

Horford didn't have highlights the way LeBron James, Giannis or Steph Curry did, but he has tons of memorable plays. Setting a high screen for IT and rolling to the three point line, which either cleared the lane for the little guy to attack the basket, or made slow-footed big men pay for not getting out on him. Or feeding Brown/Tatum from the elbow on cuts to the basket. Or rotating over as the help defender and forcing a tough shot when a teammate got beat.

His success over Embiid was particularly enjoyable. Embiid got more buzz, was bigger, stronger and louder. Yet, like Russell vs Chamberlain, the quiet, no-nonsense Horford puzzled Embiid with his quickness, decision making, and above all else, intelligence, that gave Boston an edge against Philly. Horford blowing past a gassed Embiid as he tried to get out to contest a three in the playoffs is probably the enduring moment of Horford's time in Boston.
 

the moops

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Wish that Paul and Harden didn't hate each other, for a sign and trade with HOU where Horford goes and Capela comes seems like a pretty reasonable deal for both sides
 

the moops

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His success over Embiid was particularly enjoyable. Embiid got more buzz, was bigger, stronger and louder. Yet, like Russell vs Chamberlain, the quiet, no-nonsense Horford puzzled Embiid with his quickness, decision making, and above all else, intelligence, that gave Boston an edge against Philly. Horford blowing past a gassed Embiid as he tried to get out to contest a three in the playoffs is probably the enduring moment of Horford's time in Boston.
I think this Embbid getting schooled by Horford is a bit overblown. Embiid shot slightly worse against BOS in both regular season and playoffs, but he did still manage to put 24 points and 14 rebounds.
 

lovegtm

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I mean the only possible criticism I'd make is that he held on to the Davis dream too long. But when you have one of his friends under contract I can see why he'd give it his best shot. With perfect knowledge he probably deals Irving to the Clippers last winter (assuming that the West leaked stories were true), and prepares to pivot this summer. But who the hell has perfect foresight?
I love this criticism, and I’m very pro-Ainge. The worst-kept secret in the league was that the Celtics were targeting AD for multiple years. I think they may have gotten some slight tunnel vision as a result, although the reported asking prices for Kawhi and PG were probably too steep (based on info at the time).

I’d imagine he’ll learn from this wrt over-targeting one guy for years, including the part where your presumed best package is topped by the other team’s GM selling literally everything that isn’t nailed down.