MLB’s sign-stealing controversy broadens: Sources say the Red Sox used video replay room illegally in 2018

OurF'ingCity

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expect Cora to be suspended for his overall 2017-18 involvement.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28439945/sources-mlb-decision-discipline-astros
It wouldn't really make sense to punish the Red Sox (by suspending their manager) for things that the Astros did, would it? Of course, if the recent allegations against the Red Sox specifically in 2018 are part of the investigation (and if not I assume there will be a separate investigation), then yes Cora will likely be suspended and the team will probably be fined (given the relative magnitude of the two issues, I find it highly likely the Astros will lose draft picks but suspect the Red Sox will not).
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I would bet the house that those two numbers for the Astros are exactly the same. Boston was 6 games better at home in 2018.
Why bet? These things are at our finger tips...

Astros
2016 Home 43-38 Road 41-40
2017 Home 48-33 Road 52-28
2018 Home 46-35 Road 57-24
2019 Home 60-21 Road 47-34

Red Sox
2016 Home 47-34 Road 46-35
2017 Home 48-33 Road 45-36
2018 Home 57-24 Road 51-30
2019 Home 38-43 Road 46-35
 

54thMA

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That's what I was referring to.









I'm not saying what the Red Sox did wasn't wrong (it seems to me that it probably was), but I'd slow your victory lap just a little bit. Slam away, Sammy Sosa.

So the Red Sox and Astros, both of whom won a World Series, are now accused of cheating.

And so are the Yankees.

IMO, that's a worse look for the Yankees than the other two teams.

They cheated and STILL couldn't win a World Series.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm just going to throw it out there for discussion/to be contrarian: If Cora is suspended and heavily involved in all of this, do people even want him back?
 

DJnVa

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I'm just going to throw it out there for discussion/to be contrarian: If Cora is suspended and heavily involved in all of this, do people even want him back?
Dude, I root for the Patriots. This is nothing.
 

Green (Tongued) Monster

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Why bet? These things are at our finger tips...

Astros
2016 Home 43-38 Road 41-40
2017 Home 48-33 Road 52-28
2018 Home 46-35 Road 57-24
2019 Home 60-21 Road 47-34

Red Sox
2016 Home 47-34 Road 46-35
2017 Home 48-33 Road 45-36
2018 Home 57-24 Road 51-30
2019 Home 38-43 Road 46-35
The 2017 Astros went 48-33 (.593) at home and 53-28 (.654) on the road.
Re-read post 41 again. I was making a joke. I am quite aware of the home/road records of each team.
 

The Gray Eagle

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It's not used for that type of replay. It's used to decide if the team wants to challenge a play. So, there's not going to be a parade of players heading there. In theory.
From the article:
The system the Red Sox employed was not unlike one they had used in previous seasons under a different manager, John Farrell. It was also similar to one the Yankees and other teams had employed before MLB started its crackdown. (Hitters can legally visit the replay room during games to study some video.)


Odd that they put that part in parentheses, as it seems really relevant to this story. Hitters can go in there and watch video during the games. But they are not supposed to look at signs. And if they do figure out signs they aren't supposed to tell anyone.

What a stupid system.
 

Bergs

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I now hope MLB goes full Roger Goodell and actually starts sorting things out for the betterment of the integrity of the game.
By all means, less get less rational and transparent! Good call.
 

drbretto

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This really is nothing, if I'm not missing anything here. If it's genuinely someone at a desk watching the broadcast decoding the signs, this isn't a team problem, it's an MLB problem. And really just a natural evolution. You literally can't stop that from happening and I guarantee it's in every single clubhouse. It's just too easy. 6 or so lines of code and someone to watch the game and input the signs. It's just information that's left out there. In what real world is this not mandatory for every team to have?

This won't get resolved with disciplinary action. They'll just try to be more subtle about it. Either get rid of the signs entirely or accept it as part of the game.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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This really is nothing, if I'm not missing anything here. If it's genuinely someone at a desk watching the broadcast decoding the signs, this isn't a team problem, it's an MLB problem. And really just a natural evolution. You literally can't stop that from happening and I guarantee it's in every single clubhouse. It's just too easy. 6 or so lines of code and someone to watch the game and input the signs. It's just information that's left out there. In what real world is this not mandatory for every team to have?

This won't get resolved with disciplinary action. They'll just try to be more subtle about it. Either get rid of the signs entirely or accept it as part of the game.
I agree. The only reason this sort of thing should be considered egregious is if it's impacting the game in a real-time manner. The watch the signs on video then bang on the trashcan to signal the batter of what's coming strikes me as a bit over the line. But there's no way to stop or even slow down the notion of watching video and trying to decipher signs for the purpose of future use.
 

jungleboy

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I seem to recall reading that the Astros' winning percentage away from home in 2017 wasn't much different than it was on the road. I can't recall whether the 2018 Red Sox won at a much higher clip at home.
Unlike in the Astros' case, what the Red Sox are being accused of does not appear to be limited to being able to do it at home. From the Athletic article:
The replay room is just steps from the home dugout at Fenway Park, through the same doors that lead to the batting cage. Every team’s replay staff travels to road games, making the system viable in other parks as well.
 

OurF'ingCity

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It is entirely nonsensical that, based on my understanding of the rules, a team could review tape in the replay room to determine if a pitcher is tipping pitches in a given game, but NOT to try to decipher signs in that same game. To me, those two things are completely identical - in both cases the team is looking for a "tell" to better predict what pitch is coming and it's the opponent's responsibility to minimize those "tells" - so to have two different sets of rules makes no sense.
 

drbretto

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It is entirely nonsensical that, based on my understanding of the rules, a team could review tape in the replay room to determine if a pitcher is tipping pitches in a given game, but NOT to try to decipher signs in that same game. To me, those two things are completely identical - in both cases the team is looking for a "tell" to better predict what pitch is coming and it's the opponent's responsibility to minimize those "tells" - so to have two different sets of rules makes no sense.
Afaik, the only difference in the process is basic. To figure out the signs, someone only needs to key in the number of fingers dropped inbtge sequence. To see if there's pitch tipping, you'd need some image recognition software, which means maybe paying the programmer full time instead of sending some interns to enter data. Either way, literally no way to police this, and I don't have ba problem with any team doing it. Even the Yankees.

Is there even an actual rule being violated? I'm not well versed in the rulebook.
 

nvalvo

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So basically, what we're looking at is potential future baserunners familiarizing themselves with the (soon-to-change) signs in the video room.

That not only feels much less egregious an abuse than transmitting signs in real time from dugout to batters' box as the Astros did, I'm not even sure that is beyond accepted norms.
 
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JimD

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So, when Cora's supposedly brilliant little ploy was nullified in the postseason, his team proceeded to demolish a 100-win team, a 103-win team and a 92-win team, winning six out of seven on the road. Yeah, it must have been cheating.

The comparison to an open-book exam is spot on. This is so stupid.
 

ifmanis5

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MLB will launch an official investigation.
BREAKING: Major League Baseball will investigate allegations the Boston Red Sox illegally used their video replay room to steal signs between opposing pitchers and catchers during their 2018 World Series championship season - AP
 

djbayko

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This really is nothing, if I'm not missing anything here. If it's genuinely someone at a desk watching the broadcast decoding the signs, this isn't a team problem, it's an MLB problem. And really just a natural evolution. You literally can't stop that from happening and I guarantee it's in every single clubhouse. It's just too easy. 6 or so lines of code and someone to watch the game and input the signs. It's just information that's left out there. In what real world is this not mandatory for every team to have?

This won't get resolved with disciplinary action. They'll just try to be more subtle about it. Either get rid of the signs entirely or accept it as part of the game.
You don’t even need code for this. Catcher sign systems are much simpler than base coaches because they’re not out in the open. You just have to watch a few pitches. That’s why teams react so strongly against base runners they think are signaling.
 

E5 Yaz

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MLB will launch an official investigation.
BREAKING: Major League Baseball will investigate allegations the Boston Red Sox illegally used their video replay room to steal signs between opposing pitchers and catchers during their 2018 World Series championship season - AP
Do Your Job? ... Hold my beer
 

YTF

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FWIW, I saw Ken Rosenthal on High Heat earlier. I didn't catch the whole thing, but I believe Rosenthal said three Red Sox players confirmed this for him and were not happy by the team's actions. He wouldn't divulge who the players were or if they are still with the team.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

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The solution is wireless transmitters between players that are governed by MLB. They’re not going to fix this problem by penalizing it, they need to eliminate the source of the problem which is visible signs. It’s absolutely slowing down the game because sign stealing is far more rampant than the Astros and Red Sox.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Prominent coverage on NBC nightly news. Oy.
The biggest shock of everything in this thread, aside from "shawnbru" Manfred already meting out Cora's punishment (because how else could he know that Cora is absolutely getting suspended for one year?) is that you actually watch the NBC nightly news.

I would agree that a story involving a MLB team cheating making a major network newscast is a big deal...if its the 1990s or before. In 2020, not so much.

In any event, I am off to watch my VHS collection of Porky's movies while eating Wow chips! I will check back in when Cora is actually sentenced to death by Joe Kelly fire baseballs at him for three hours.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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More than a handful of folks on Reddit want Cora banned from baseball, you know, if you wanted a little taste of how the winds are blowing out there in internet land.
 

Harry Hooper

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MLB suspends Cora for 1 season and requires the Sox to replace him with Valentine as interim manager.
 

Teachdad46

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The biggest shock of everything in this thread, aside from "shawnbru" Manfred already meting out Cora's punishment (because how else could he know that Cora is absolutely getting suspended for one year?) is that you actually watch the NBC nightly news.

I would agree that a story involving a MLB team cheating making a major network newscast is a big deal...if its the 1990s or before. In 2020, not so much.

In any event, I am off to watch my VHS collection of Porky's movies while eating Wow chips! I will check back in when Cora is actually sentenced to death by Joe Kelly fire baseballs at him for three hours.
[/QUOTE)
But given Kelly's track record, how is that a death sentence?
 

Archer1979

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The silver lining in all this is that you've had two championship teams in the last three years with former players, emphasis on plural, apparently blowing the whistle. For the Patriots, who have been supposedly cheating for the last twenty years, have not had ONE former player come out and say anything untoward about the organization when it comes to cheating.

The bad news is that the Sox are implicated, but this thing looks like everyone has been doing this so its really a level playing field (especially in the playoffs since no one can use the replay room for sign stealing). But as stated upthread, no one cares if you cheat if you come in last.
 

JimD

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Two thoughts after sleeping on this:

One, the Red Sox organization is going to be punished as a repeat offender, thanks to the idiotic Apple watch 'scandal'. They should have been more on top of this to ensure that no further embarrassment was brought onto the organization. Not a good look for Dave Dombrowski and others.

Two, whatever punishment Cora receives is going to be based first and foremost on how truthful he was in past investigations. If it comes out that he deliberately misled MLB's investigators, all bets are off - I would fully expect Manfred to throw the book at him and rightfully so. We could be looking at a yearlong suspension as the commissioner's office must be beside themselves in frustration over teams continually pushing the boundaries on this, and Manfred will want someone to make an example of. After that, it'll come down to whether he is implicated as a ringleader in either or both scandals. He's going to get some punishment as the common denominator between the 2017 Astros and 2018 Red Sox, no matter what. Unless there is some ambiguity or more leeway in the communications than has been reported (and Cora has some plausible deniability), I think we're looking at a minimum of two weeks with Ron Roenicke in the manager's seat.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Or....this isn't the NFL and Manfred isn't as punitive and petty as Goodell and they don't make a big stink about this, since everyone does it? End of day, who honestly gives a shit if players went to the video room and looked at catcher's signs? If he comes down on the Sox, he has to come down on everyone. Plus, what's the +/- on if your scenario plays out and Cora gets suspended a couple weeks? a win or two?
 

lexrageorge

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Shank seems to think Cora and the Sox committed the crime of the century. He's already added the asterisks to 2018.

I agree that this incident seems like it's minor in the grand scheme of things. The concerning items are the fact that it's the "second offense" for the team, and the fact that there are reports that Manfred informed teams at the start of 2018 that the league will be more aggressive in investigating and punishing scofflaws; ignoring the Commissioner's memo never leads to good results.

I just hope that neither Cora nor anyone else associated with the team did not lie about anything when asked by Manfred's investigators. The cover up will always get rightfully punished far more severely than the underlying crime, and it's 100% on Cora if he did not know that.
 

E5 Yaz

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CHB, Reddit, NBC Nightly News? Someone should quote Incarcerated Bob and it will be the Mount Rushmore of Who Gives A Shit