MLB’s sign-stealing controversy broadens: Sources say the Red Sox used video replay room illegally in 2018

Average Reds

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I'll admit to not following this as closely as many of you, so feel free to pile on me for asking this potentially ignorant question, but why is MLB going nuclear over this? Sign stealing has been part of baseball since, well, forever. I get that what Houston (and Boston) did may have taken the technological aspect of it to a new level, but year-long suspensions? Firings? Massive draft penalties? I'm blown away at the severity of the punishment.
When the Astros story first broke, a friend of mine told me that MLB was going to crucify them because they have recently signed long-term deals with sports betting firms (I believe that MGM is the biggest) and those firms are going to be out for blood.

I basically ignored him, but I think he may be on to something.
 

Awesome Fossum

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I think the technology bit, along with the past two champs being implicated, is driving the fan/media outrage. But beyond that, I think the commissioner is especially pissed because:

1) Everyone was explicitly told not to do this
2) It's making much worse the one issue the league office thinks is so important that they're changing the rulebook: pace of play.

The cherry on top is the Astros already being in the doghouse for the Taubman incident.

Edit: I hadn't thought about gambling, but that's a great call.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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When the Astros story first broke, a friend of mine told me that MLB was going to crucify them because they have recently signed long-term deals with sports betting firms (I believe that MGM is the biggest) and those firms are going to be out for blood.

I basically ignored him, but I think he may be on to something.
MLB needs that bastion of virtue, Las Vegas, to keep them on the straight and narrow. I like it.
 

moretsyndrome

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I think the technology bit, along with the past two champs being implicated, is driving the fan/media outrage. But beyond that, I think the commissioner is especially pissed because:

1) Everyone was explicitly told not to do this
2) It's making much worse the one issue the league office thinks is so important that they're changing the rulebook: pace of play.

The cherry on top is the Astros already being in the doghouse for the Taubman incident.

Edit: I hadn't thought about gambling, but that's a great call.
Agreed, it wouldn't surprise me, given what I've read about Taubman that he was the one who interfered with Hinch if Hinch is being honest about having tried to stop the practice.

Cora is replaceable, but those draft picks could be precious. That's where the potential for long-term damage lies.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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I think the technology bit, along with the past two champs being implicated, is driving the fan/media outrage. But beyond that, I think the commissioner is especially pissed because:

1) Everyone was explicitly told not to do this
2) It's making much worse the one issue the league office thinks is so important that they're changing the rulebook: pace of play.

The cherry on top is the Astros already being in the doghouse for the Taubman incident.

Edit: I hadn't thought about gambling, but that's a great call.
AJ Hinch also had some now laughable press conferences where he arrogantly brushed off the accusations. To the fans of teams they beat in the playoffs- particularly NYY and LAD fans- that's an extra slap in the face.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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I'll admit to not following this as closely as many of you, so feel free to pile on me for asking this potentially ignorant question, but why is MLB going nuclear over this? Sign stealing has been part of baseball since, well, forever. I get that what Houston (and Boston) did may have taken the technological aspect of it to a new level, but year-long suspensions? Firings? Massive draft penalties? I'm blown away at the severity of the punishment.
I think it comes down to the fact that two of the last three world series champions were implicated in a way that indicates the integrity of the game was impacted by this sign stealing. While I agree with everyone that sign stealing is part of the game, I do think that the use of technology to do it is beyond the historic baseball gamesmanship.

I think MLB does need to come up with a technology based solution to the sign stealing issue, but I'm not surprised to see the extreme punishments. I think this was far more impactful to the outcome of games than the worst things that the Patriots could have possibly done taping the sidelines or deflating footballs.
 

staz

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If they fire him first, then the only way to punish the Red Sox is through fines and draft picks. Even if you're going to move on, you should probably keep him around to absorb a bullet first.
This is correct, but if SOX investigation is just beginning, they need to remind MLB that P&C reporting is a month away.

Maybe Chaim needs to sit down with Roenicke behind the scenes - like right now.

Damage Done indeed.
 

YTF

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With tears in his eyes Peter Gammons scratches two names off the Good People's List.

So Hinch had so little control over his clubhouse that all he could do is strenuously object and smash monitors? Not a great look.
I don't buy that for a minute. From what I recall during the 2018 ALCS, Cora in several interviews spoke about how close he was to Hinch and how much he learned from him while he was his bench coach. If true I refuse to believe that Cora would be allowed by Hinch to keep doing this.
 
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InstaFace

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Obviously the Red Sox were breaking a rule in place by doing it, and so there needs to be consequences.
This isn't clear to me from the publicly-available information. If they weren't using electronic means to communicate information to the dugout, they may well have been following the letter of the law, if not its spirit.

edit: I retract this, see discussion in later posts below.

He conducted himself in Boston by continuing to do this. He should be fired immediately.
by "continuing to do this", could you state what you think "this" is?

Houston:
1) Team employees decode signals using live video streams from cameras placed right behind home dugout
2) Communicate those signals in real-time to batters through banging a drum or electronic communication for use with that particular pitch

Boston:
1) Batters can view live video streams up at the replay booth
2) If they manage to decode it, they can go back and tell their teammates what to look for, verbally and asynchronously
3) If the batter is able to digest that information (or the runner on 2nd is), they can try to implement that knowledge while at the plate

I see a difference of type, not just of degree. That type involves (as P91 says) Boston using resources available to home and away teams equally, while Houston did not. And that distinction is not least because what is alleged to have happened in Boston has gone on at every team, while my impression is that nobody went as far as Houston did and considered that more of a team-level scheme rather than player-to-player gamesmanship.

Low-information fans will conflate the two, but if so then all 30 teams are equally guilty, or nearly so. I just don't think that's the case here.
 
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Leskanic's Thread

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What the Sox did strikes me as being nothing like what the Astros did. (And to be clear, I'm saying that it's far less serious.)
I agree with you here. That said...I just had a sharp pang of longing for the days when avatar quoting was an acceptable practice.

Already getting hit with "more tainted championships for Boston!" messages. Which of course I would litigate if I thought it meant anything. But this is definitely a grave that Cora has dug for himself (and, by extension, for the Red Sox and their fans). Guess we will all have to lie in it for a while.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Quite a few years for the Astros:

- traded for domestic abuser Osuna
- asst GM directed ugly tirade toward female reporter over Osuna
- Astros denied incident took place and accused reporter of making it all up
- GM said he's been too busy to speak with reporter, at presser where reporter is in room
- fire asst GM, admit incident took place, no apology towards reporter
- Lose four home games in World Series
- get exposed in massive and amateurish cheating scandal involving sign-stealing
- fire GM and manager

Am I missing anything?
 

Shaky Walton

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Cora is the common denominator and a key actor for both teams.

How he could get a lesser penalty than Hinch is hard to conceive.

It just sucks that the Sox seemingly have to wait to move on from him and move forward with the 2020 team.

Is there ANY chance they could act before MLB acts? I seriously doubt it. But it would be nice to be wrong.
 

Average Reds

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This isn't clear to me from the publicly-available information. If they weren't using electronic means to communicate information to the dugout, they may well have been following the letter of the law, if not its spirit.

by "continuing to do this", could you state what you think "this" is?

Houston:
1) Team employees decode signals using live video streams from cameras placed right behind home dugout
2) Communicate those signals in real-time to batters through banging a drum or electronic communication for use with that particular pitch

Boston:
1) Batters can view live video streams up at the replay booth
2) If they manage to decode it, they can go back and tell their teammates what to look for, verbally and asynchronously
3) If the batter is able to digest that information (or the runner on 2nd is), they can try to implement that knowledge while at the plate

I see a difference of type, not just of degree. That type involves (as P91 says) Boston using resources available to home and away teams equally, while Houston did not. And that distinction is not least because what is alleged to have happened in Boston has gone on at every team, while my impression is that nobody went as far as Houston did and considered that more of a team-level scheme rather than player-to-player gamesmanship.

Low-information fans will conflate the two, but if so then all 30 teams are equally guilty, or nearly so. I just don't think that's the case here.
I tend to agree with this analysis, which is why I'm betting that the team punishment will be less for Boston. However, the individual punishment for Cora is going to be worse.

Having said that, it's worth noting that the Sox might be viewed as repeat offenders because of the Apple Watch debacle. Which means they might feel the heat as well.
 

jon abbey

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Quite a few years for the Astros:

- traded for domestic abuser Osuna
- asst GM directed ugly tirade toward female reporter over Osuna
- Astros denied incident took place and accused reporter of making it all up
- GM said he's been too busy to speak with reporter, at presser where reporter is in room
- fire asst GM, admit incident took place, no apology towards reporter
- Lose four home games in World Series
- get exposed in massive and amateurish cheating scandal involving sign-stealing
- fire GM and manager

Am I missing anything?
The spin rate thing that Trevor Bauer accused them of, using illegal pine tar-esque substances to help their pitchers.
 

InstaFace

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Manfred continues to be a stain on this game. I'd rather Selig at this point.
What? Have you read his published statement?

Houston ignored a league-wide memo telling teams to knock off something aimed at getting them a competitive advantage. I don't see how he could have done any differently.

Goodell got his sarcastic rep as the "Ginger Hammer" because he kept blowing molehills into mountains, seemingly as a way to assert authority. There was no competitive advantage alleged in camera-placement-gate, but because a memo had been ignored, severe franchise penalties were handed out. By comparison, Manfred's hand was forced: the Astros were flaunting directives designed to prevent the kind of real-time tipping that makes a farce of the very core of the game (the mental battle between pitcher and batter). You can argue he could have suspended Luhnow and Hinch for less time given that they were not active participants, but you'd be quibbling. Team and individual penalties were clearly called-for, and there's obvious value to MLB to having unambiguous management accountability for these things.

My criticisms of Selig start with him being a mealy-mouthed waffler on important matters. Manfred has acted with transparency and logic.
 

ifmanis5

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Quite a few years for the Astros:

- traded for domestic abuser Osuna
- asst GM directed ugly tirade toward female reporter over Osuna
- Astros denied incident took place and accused reporter of making it all up
- GM said he's been too busy to speak with reporter, at presser where reporter is in room
- fire asst GM, admit incident took place, no apology towards reporter
- Lose four home games in World Series
- get exposed in massive and amateurish cheating scandal involving sign-stealing
- fire GM and manager

Am I missing anything?
Their internal computer database was hacked by the Cardinals.
Gurriel yelled an ethnic slur at Yu Darvish.
 

SoxinSeattle

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Knee jerk on my part but does all this nonsense make it easier for Mookie to decide to sign elsewhere? Same money but less headache?

As a Boston fan I am exhausted by all this cheating insanity. Cora has to be removed so we can move on as quickly and cleanly as possible. I feel for Bloom as his job just got harder (less draft picks etc.)
 

CoffeeNerdness

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This isn't clear to me from the publicly-available information. If they weren't using electronic means to communicate information to the dugout, they may well have been following the letter of the law, if not its spirit.
From what I've googled the 2018 memo/rule made the distinction between real time feeds and delayed feeds. I believe if the Sox were using the real time replay feed to decipher signs then they'll be punished steeply. However, going of Alex Speier's report, the BATS system for use by batters(a delayed feed) was in the same room as the replay system(real time) so it's not yet clear which feed they used. If they did exclusively use the BATS feed, I cannot see any difference between using that feed and having a guy in the clubhouse figuring out the signs by watching the game feed.

(I haven't read the original Athletic article as I don't have a sub, so maybe that goes into more detail about which feed they used)
 

JimD

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This isn't clear to me from the publicly-available information. If they weren't using electronic means to communicate information to the dugout, they may well have been following the letter of the law, if not its spirit.
Per the original November 12th report in The Athletic, the relevant rule states:

Major League Baseball Regulations … prohibit the use of electronic equipment during games and state that no such equipment ‘may be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage
Using the replay monitor to steal signs could certainly qualify as violating the rule.
 

edoug

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I tend to agree with this analysis, which is why I'm betting that the team punishment will be less for Boston. However, the individual punishment for Cora is going to be worse.

Having said that, it's worth noting that the Sox might be viewed as repeat offenders because of the Apple Watch debacle. Which means they might feel the heat as well.
Definitely. Isn't the reason the Astros' penalties are so large because of the Apple watch thing? It's probably moot but Cora has to be in for a long suspension.
 

YTF

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Knee jerk on my part but does all this nonsense make it easier for Mookie to decide to sign elsewhere? Same money but less headache?

As a Boston fan I am exhausted by all this cheating insanity. Cora has to be removed so we can move on as quickly and cleanly as possible. I feel for Bloom as his job just got harder (less draft picks etc.)
I can't see where the Sox lose any picks due to the 2017 Astro's thing. 2018 is a different animal that is still being investigated, no picks lost....yet.
 

JimD

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I can't see where the Sox lose any picks due to the 2017 Astro's thing. 2018 is a different animal that is still being investigated, no picks lost....yet.
The Sox were on probation after the 2017 Apple watch stuff - they are losing picks.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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Quite a few years for the Astros:

- traded for domestic abuser Osuna
- asst GM directed ugly tirade toward female reporter over Osuna
- Astros denied incident took place and accused reporter of making it all up
- GM said he's been too busy to speak with reporter, at presser where reporter is in room
- fire asst GM, admit incident took place, no apology towards reporter
- Lose four home games in World Series
- get exposed in massive and amateurish cheating scandal involving sign-stealing
- fire GM and manager

Am I missing anything?
Look for the Mets to sign Antonio Brown some time this week.
 

InstaFace

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From what I've googled the 2018 memo/rule made the distinction between real time feeds and delayed feeds. I believe if the Sox were using the real time replay feed to decipher signs then they'll be punished steeply. However, going of Alex Speier's report, the BATS system for use by batters(a delayed feed) was in the same room as the replay system(real time) so it's not yet clear which feed they used. If they did exclusively use the BATS feed, I cannot see any difference between using that feed and having a guy in the clubhouse figuring out the signs by watching the game feed.

(I haven't read the original Athletic article as I don't have a sub, so maybe that goes into more detail about which feed they used)
Yeah figuring out the signs system in general, using the BATS feed, requires then bringing that knowledge, in general, to the batter's box or on the bases, and then decoding it while you're processing everything else about the moment(s) before the pitch. And every team does that. It's totally worthwhile for MLB to try and stamp that out for both pace-of-play reasons and also general "guys we're all collectively spending too much time on this" reasons.

Using a real-time feed so that someone else can decode and communicate that information in real time, in a manner that away teams don't have access to, is just a fundamentally different attempt to gain a competitive advantage. That's what Houston is being punished for and unless I'm very mistaken, that's not what is alleged to have happened in Boston.

But you're right that there is probably, at the least, a violation of the 2018 memo in the former. So I owe an apology to P91 on that count. We should just all be prepared to feel aggrieved if and when the Sox are singled out for their conduct on that, when every other team has operated on a "whaddya mean you morons aren't using that to steal signs?" attitude for years.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Yeah figuring out the signs system in general, using the BATS feed, requires then bringing that knowledge, in general, to the batter's box or on the bases, and then decoding it while you're processing everything else about the moment(s) before the pitch. And every team does that. It's totally worthwhile for MLB to try and stamp that out for both pace-of-play reasons and also general "guys we're all collectively spending too much time on this" reasons.

Using a real-time feed so that someone else can decode and communicate that information in real time, in a manner that away teams don't have access to, is just a fundamentally different attempt to gain a competitive advantage. That's what Houston is being punished for and unless I'm very mistaken, that's not what is alleged to have happened in Boston.

But you're right that there is probably, at the least, a violation of the 2018 memo in the former. So I owe an apology to P91 on that count. We should just all be prepared to feel aggrieved if and when the Sox are singled out for their conduct on that, when every other team has operated on a "whaddya mean you morons aren't using that to steal signs?" attitude for years.
It's important to emphasize these distinctions. On the one (Red Sox) hand, it's the equivalent of an intern's wife calling him up during the game and telling him what the indicator is while she's watching TV - and then getting that info to the hitters - who then have to wait for someone to be on 2nd base - and hope the indicator's still the same.

On the other (Astro) hand, it's someone giving real time information to a hitter based on real time surveillance of the catcher's signals - independent of any other game activity.

Apples and grapes.
 

Ed Hillel

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I'll admit to not following this as closely as many of you, so feel free to pile on me for asking this potentially ignorant question, but why is MLB going nuclear over this? Sign stealing has been part of baseball since, well, forever. I get that what Houston (and Boston) did may have taken the technological aspect of it to a new level, but year-long suspensions? Firings? Massive draft penalties? I'm blown away at the severity of the punishment.
It has to be the gambling partnerships. It's an open secret the Blue Jays have used technology to steal signs for decades and the worst it ever got was a slap on the wrist privately. Or maybe MLB has decided to follow the NFL soap opera/hot takes TV show model and highlight scandal as much as possible for ratings. But probably the gambling stuff...
 

Awesome Fossum

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Quite a few years for the Astros:

- traded for domestic abuser Osuna
- asst GM directed ugly tirade toward female reporter over Osuna
- Astros denied incident took place and accused reporter of making it all up
- GM said he's been too busy to speak with reporter, at presser where reporter is in room
- fire asst GM, admit incident took place, no apology towards reporter
- Lose four home games in World Series
- get exposed in massive and amateurish cheating scandal involving sign-stealing
- fire GM and manager

Am I missing anything?
The report that Luhnow had to be talked out of drafting Luke Heimlich.
 

stepson_and_toe

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Let's assume the worst: the Red Sox get hammered for sign stealing in 2018 and Cora gets punished for this issue with both the Astros and the Red Sox and they get hurt in the area of draft picks. Even if they trade Betts as a way of getting out from under Price's contract, they still will have a fairly high payroll. Is it time to rebuild when they won't have high draft picks? Do they keep Betts just to keep an interest going in the team? Like it or not, this team has some holes outside the pitching staff:

1B--Moreland F.A.
2B-Holt F.A. (Pedroia on his last leg)
LF-Benintendi 100 OPS+ (fielding down)
CF-JBJ 90 OPS+
C -Vazquez 103 OPS+
 

cornwalls@6

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The more this sinks in, the more insane and outrageous these penalties strike me. I’ve been in the camp that technology can’t be stopped, so it should be legal to use it to deliver and decipher signs. Let the best IT department win. But that said, we aren’t there yet, and the rules were on the books, they were broken, and some punishment was definitely warranted. But this is the death penalty for speeding. It’s wildly disproportionate to the offense. And if we had anything resembling an honest and reasonable sports media, it would be called out as such. And unfortunately, it sure seems that part two of this absurd overreaction is about to fall on the Red Sox.
 
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DeadlySplitter

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one theory that I saw is that Henry backtracking his payroll mandate comments to Shank late last week is a sign he recently found out they will be fucked in the draft, so they are going to GFIN one more year now.
 

lexrageorge

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The more this sinks in, the more insane and outrageous these sanctions strike me. I’ve been in the camp that technology can’t be stopped, so it should be legal to use it to deliver and decipher signs. Let the best IT department win. But that said, we aren’t there yet, and the rules were on the books, they were broken, and some punishment was definitely warranted. But this is the death penalty for speeding. It’s wildly disproportionate to the offense. And if we had anything resembling an honest and reasonable sports media, it would be called out as such. And unfortunately, it sure seems that part two of this absurd overreaction is about to fall on the Red Sox.
It is definitely disproportionate. Hinch at most should have gotten 60 games (I could care less about the odious Luhnow; good riddance). And probably a mid-round draft pick or a loss of bonus money.

However, MLB has been getting testy about teams skirting the rules, and there was definitely some "ignoring the memo" going on as well. The Red Sox lost a huge amount of international free agent bonus allocation because of some stupid scheme to skirt the CBA. Two other considerations:

1.) Neither the manager nor the GM are protected by the CBA, so it was much easier for Manfred to punish them as compared to the players.

2.) The connection noted above with the sports betting firms is real. MLB is now very much beholden to their whims given the $$$ coming in.
 

Muppet

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Quite a few years for the Astros:

- traded for domestic abuser Osuna
- asst GM directed ugly tirade toward female reporter over Osuna
- Astros denied incident took place and accused reporter of making it all up
- GM said he's been too busy to speak with reporter, at presser where reporter is in room
- fire asst GM, admit incident took place, no apology towards reporter
- Lose four home games in World Series
- get exposed in massive and amateurish cheating scandal involving sign-stealing
- fire GM and manager

Am I missing anything?
Use of CPAP
 

Wingack

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The more this sinks in, the more insane and outrageous these sanctions strike me. I’ve been in the camp that technology can’t be stopped, so it should be legal to use it to deliver and decipher signs.
It can be stopped if the penalties for using technology to cheat continue to be this severe. Teams will stop doing it.

If they don't people have their careers ruined and you lose top tier draft picks.
 

threecy

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Perhaps one of the biggest questions for Cora's future with the Red Sox, beyond whatever happens, is whether or not he is a championship caliber manager without the alleged digital tactics. Perhaps 2019 is more indicative of his abilities than 2018.
 

BaseballJones

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Perhaps one of the biggest questions for Cora's future with the Red Sox, beyond whatever happens, is whether or not he is a championship caliber manager without the alleged digital tactics. Perhaps 2019 is more indicative of his abilities than 2018.
In all honesty, this opens up the hugest can of worms MLB could possibly imagine. Sign-stealing of various sorts has been part-and-parcel of baseball since its inception. If MLB *really* wants to go down this road, it's going to have its hands full. But I suspect they'll conveniently ignore other possible stories of this kind of thing and focus on the Astros and Red Sox and hope that that's enough to deter future episodes, while at the same time showing people how serious they are about dealing with cheating.
 

OurF'ingCity

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It can be stopped if the penalties for using technology to cheat continue to be this severe. Teams will stop doing it.

If they don't people have their careers ruined and you lose top tier draft picks.
Exactly. I think I said something like that in the other thread where random number generators and other ways of transmitting signs were being discussed. There is no need for all that - just tell teams to stop doing it and if you get caught you are going to be severely punished.

Now, that means that ALL teams that did/do this have to be punished - this can't be a thing where well-known teams in the playoffs are punished but there are 5 teams who weren't good and who get less media scrutiny and who avoid any investigation/punishment. Some of the commentary from players on Twitter (taking that with the boulder-sized grain of salt necessary) suggests that may be precisely what is happening. MLB needs to go all in one way or the other - either everyone gets investigated/punished or no one does.
 

djbayko

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When the Astros story first broke, a friend of mine told me that MLB was going to crucify them because they have recently signed long-term deals with sports betting firms (I believe that MGM is the biggest) and those firms are going to be out for blood.

I basically ignored him, but I think he may be on to something.
Why would sports books be out for blood? This scandal shouldn’t have affected them in the slightest.

Sure, the league needs to get it under control now that’s it’s been exposed to maintain the integrity of the sport but it’s not like casinos lost millions of dollars because someone was banging on trash cans.
 

Average Reds

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Why would sports books be out for blood? This scandal shouldn’t have affected them in the slightest.

Sure, the league needs to get it under control now that’s it’s been exposed to maintain the integrity of the sport but it’s not like casinos lost millions of dollars because someone was banging on trash cans.
If there is a sense that the games are in any way influenced by “cheating” the amount being bet will plummet. And that has a huge impact on them.

At least that’s the theory that was being pushed.