Cora in line for major suspension?

Status
Not open for further replies.

kartvelo

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2003
10,461
At home
If it's no big deal then why all the penalties to the Astros? Cora's speeding ticket could set the Astros back, 5 years.

If you were a pitcher that gave up a walk-off homer to a guy that knew what pitch was coming, would you be cool with it? What if you were the 25th guy on the roster and were sent down as a result of giving up a dinger to a cheater.
Hmmm. Here's another question:
Would I feel better about it if the signs had been figured out by a runner on 2nd instead of off the video replay screen?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,297
AZ
Reading the full report, you really don't need to be a weatherman to see which way the wind is blowing with respect to Cora. He is completely and totally screwed.

"Witnesses consistently describe this new scheme as player-driven, and with the exception of Cora, non-player staff, including individuals in the video replay review room, had no involvement in the banging scheme. "

"Cora arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the center field camera feed immediately outside of the Astros’ dugout."

"Early in the season, Alex Cora, the Astros’ Bench Coach, began to call the replay review room on the replay phone to obtain the sign information."

"The Astros’ methods in 2017 and 2018 to decode and communicate to the batter an opposing Club’s signs were not an initiative that was planned or directed by the Club’s top baseball operations officials. Rather, the 2017 scheme in which players banged on a trash can was, with the exception of Cora, player-driven and player-executed. "

"Cora participated in both schemes, and through his active participation, implicitly condoned the players’ conduct. "

So, apart from the content of the report, the way it was written tells you pretty much everything you need to know. It goes out of its way to single out his role as a manager with active participation and the Commish just hammered two in management with only indirect knowledge and acquiescence.

He is really screwed.
 
Jul 5, 2018
430
Hmmm. Here's another question:
Would I feel better about it if the signs had been figured out by a runner on 2nd instead of off the video replay screen?
It's a little different since it's on the field and there has to be a runner on 2nd. There's also no trash can near 2nd.

Here's another question:

Would you do what Cora did?
 

Seels

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
4,948
NH
I'm okay with a lifetime ban if he is the guy who started this. Do the investigation but fuck cheating. Fuck anyone and everyone involved. Wipe the slate clean

But I'll say this -- hasn't it been a pretty open secret for years that the Blue Jays have known the Sox signs? Do a full investigation. Make the penalties harsh to the extent no one would think to do this.
 

OurF'ingCity

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
8,469
New York City
I suspect Cora will get the Taubman penalty - indefinite suspension with right to apply for reinstatement after this year. But a lot depends on two things - the extent of the operation while at the Red Sox, and Cora's participation in/cooperation with the investigation. If, when interviewed, Cora was basically like "ok, you got me, it was stupid and I realize now how improper it was," maybe he just gets a year ban. But if he was stupid enough to lie about his role in the scheme (or even incidental things - e.g., if he admitted his participation in the Astros scheme but claimed the Red Sox weren't stealing signs), that's obviously a whole 'nother story.
 

kartvelo

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2003
10,461
At home
It's a little different since it's on the field and there has to be a runner on 2nd. There's also no trash can near 2nd.

Here's another question:

Would you do what Cora did?
No, I like to think that I wouldn't. However, what I would or would not do is hardly relevant to the issue at hand, any more than what you would do.

So here's another question:
If it's a little different, how different should the penalty be for stealing signs while at second? And for whom? And why?
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,390
No, I like to think that I wouldn't. However, what I would or would not do is hardly relevant to the issue at hand, any more than what you would do.

So here's another question:
If it's a little different, how different should the penalty be for stealing signs while at second? And for whom? And why?
Sign stealing itself is not illegal, so there should be no penalty for that - nor would there be. The other team may take exception and drill you the next time you're up, but it's not illegal. But MLB has made it clear that stealing signs using electronic means IS illegal. So if you're caught doing THAT, yes, you'll receive a penalty.
 
Jul 5, 2018
430
No, I like to think that I wouldn't. However, what I would or would not do is hardly relevant to the issue at hand, any more than what you would do.

So here's another question:
If it's a little different, how different should the penalty be for stealing signs while at second? And for whom? And why?
No penalty at all. It's on the field, has always been part of the game and it would be impossible to enforce. The catcher know he's there and can change signs with the pitcher as necessary.
 

mr_smith02

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2003
4,353
Upstate NY
Give all pitchers, catchers, and managers an Apple Watch...have them text pitch calls to each other...enforce a time clock to get the sign and make a pitch. No more signs being stolen, maybe even fewer trips to the mound.
 
Jul 5, 2018
430
I suspect Cora will get the Taubman penalty - indefinite suspension with right to apply for reinstatement after this year. But a lot depends on two things - the extent of the operation while at the Red Sox, and Cora's participation in/cooperation with the investigation. If, when interviewed, Cora was basically like "ok, you got me, it was stupid and I realize now how improper it was," maybe he just gets a year ban. But if he was stupid enough to lie about his role in the scheme (or even incidental things - e.g., if he admitted his participation in the Astros scheme but claimed the Red Sox weren't stealing signs), that's obviously a whole 'nother story.

Houston receives $5M fine, first 2 draft picks for two years, manager fired and 2017 World Series Championship effectively removed from history books.

Cora: "You got me, it was stupid and I realize now how improper it was".

Houston: "We're good."
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
Really surprised at the silence from Yawkey Way - feels like ownership was caught off guard by this and was unprepared for the extent of Cora's involvement and the likely punishment. The details in the report are enough IMO to justify a suspension by the team. Hope it just means they are going to unveil a home-run hire as the new manager, but I'm not holding my breath.
 

OurF'ingCity

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
8,469
New York City
Houston receives $5M fine, first 2 draft picks for two years, manager fired and 2017 World Series Championship effectively removed from history books.

Cora: "You got me, it was stupid and I realize now how improper it was".

Houston: "We're good."
Assuming you meant MLB and not Houston in the final line there, I'd hardly say a year's suspension would be MLB saying "we're good" (although that IS what they said to Beltran, despite him apparently being just as involved, simply because he was a player and not manager in 2017).

Also, this punishment in no way whatsoever "effectively removes from the history books" the Astros' championship. At worst, it's something fans of other teams will use as a dig against the Astros no different than Spygate for the Pats (not saying those two situations are factually similar, but in the public eye I think they will be thought of the same).
 

kartvelo

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2003
10,461
At home
No penalty at all. It's on the field, has always been part of the game and it would be impossible to enforce. The catcher know he's there and can change signs with the pitcher as necessary.
Well, your original question was, "If you were a pitcher that gave up a walk-off homer to a guy that knew what pitch was coming, would you be cool with it? What if you were the 25th guy on the roster and were sent down as a result of giving up a dinger to a cheater. "
It made me wonder how much it would matter to me (if I were one of those poor souls) whether the signs were stolen electronically or visually. And whether the harshness of the penalty somehow should be tied to how pissed I (again, as one of those poor souls) would be about it.
 

bsj

Renegade Crazed Genius
SoSH Member
Dec 6, 2003
22,776
Central NJ SoSH Chapter
Really surprised at the silence from Yawkey Way - feels like ownership was caught off guard by this and was unprepared for the extent of Cora's involvement and the likely punishment. The details in the report are enough IMO to justify a suspension by the team. Hope it just means they are going to unveil a home-run hire as the new manager, but I'm not holding my breath.
Agreed that the tone deaf silence is a bad look.

Tote out some "we are fully cooperating" statement at the very least
 

CoffeeNerdness

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2012
8,724
But I'll say this -- hasn't it been a pretty open secret for years that the Blue Jays have known the Sox signs? Do a full investigation. Make the penalties harsh to the extent no one would think to do this.
I think it's pretty clear that since the Sox will be investigated as a result of The Athletic's reporting and the Yankees won't, that the only team that will be punished for using electronics to steal signs prior to to 2018 will be the Apple Watch Sox. (Houston as well, I suppose, but their scheme was both pre and post memo) This is how they'll avoid chasing down every allegation like the tweet from Logan Morrison.

Tote out some "we are fully cooperating" statement at the very least
They did right after The Athletic article.
 

edoug

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,007
I'm curious as to why Cora wasn't suspended for his role in the Houston sign-stealing situation.
 

kartvelo

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2003
10,461
At home
I would guess they wanted to see if he brought the practices with him to Boston...so an ongoing investigation into him.
Would the cops choose not to arrest a known bank robber because he moved to a new town and they wanted to see if he would continue his lawless ways?
 

Dewey'sCannon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
870
Maryland
Agreed that the tone deaf silence is a bad look.

Tote out some "we are fully cooperating" statement at the very least
Maybe they are consulting with a PR firm on their statement, to be issued later tonight or this morning. It would be smart for them to get something out in the same news cycle, so that they reduce the extent to which they are covered as a separate story from the Astros. Which hopefully includes a statement that Cora is being fired, or at least suspended indefinitely pending the 2018 investigation.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,081
Reading the full report, you really don't need to be a weatherman to see which way the wind is blowing with respect to Cora. He is completely and totally screwed.

"Witnesses consistently describe this new scheme as player-driven, and with the exception of Cora, non-player staff, including individuals in the video replay review room, had no involvement in the banging scheme. "

"Cora arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the center field camera feed immediately outside of the Astros’ dugout."

"Early in the season, Alex Cora, the Astros’ Bench Coach, began to call the replay review room on the replay phone to obtain the sign information."

"The Astros’ methods in 2017 and 2018 to decode and communicate to the batter an opposing Club’s signs were not an initiative that was planned or directed by the Club’s top baseball operations officials. Rather, the 2017 scheme in which players banged on a trash can was, with the exception of Cora, player-driven and player-executed. "

"Cora participated in both schemes, and through his active participation, implicitly condoned the players’ conduct. "

So, apart from the content of the report, the way it was written tells you pretty much everything you need to know. It goes out of its way to single out his role as a manager with active participation and the Commish just hammered two in management with only indirect knowledge and acquiescence.

He is really screwed.
I find this hilarious in that your 2nd and 3rd quoted items completely, irrefutably, contradict the 1st.
 

Awesome Fossum

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
3,899
Austin, TX
Give all pitchers, catchers, and managers an Apple Watch...have them text pitch calls to each other...enforce a time clock to get the sign and make a pitch. No more signs being stolen, maybe even fewer trips to the mound.
This is my vote as well. Buys us a decade or so until the Charlotte Rays figure out how to hack into the watch. Or the Wifi starts going out only in the bottom half of innings.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,081
The sanctions here have to come down pretty hard on the team. Cora wasn’t around for the Watch incident. Dombrowski isn’t here to punish. Cora’s definitely out for a year+, but watch out for the team sanctions, IMO.
 
Jul 5, 2018
430
Assuming you meant MLB and not Houston in the final line there, I'd hardly say a year's suspension would be MLB saying "we're good" (although that IS what they said to Beltran, despite him apparently being just as involved, simply because he was a player and not manager in 2017).

Also, this punishment in no way whatsoever "effectively removes from the history books" the Astros' championship. At worst, it's something fans of other teams will use as a dig against the Astros no different than Spygate for the Pats (not saying those two situations are factually similar, but in the public eye I think they will be thought of the same).
Assuming you meant MLB and not Houston in the final line there, I'd hardly say a year's suspension would be MLB saying "we're good" (although that IS what they said to Beltran, despite him apparently being just as involved, simply because he was a player and not manager in 2017).

Also, this punishment in no way whatsoever "effectively removes from the history books" the Astros' championship. At worst, it's something fans of other teams will use as a dig against the Astros no different than Spygate for the Pats (not saying those two situations are factually similar, but in the public eye I think they will be thought of the same).
I was responding to the idea that an immediate acknowledgment of guilt by Cora would make any difference. Other than the Black Sox, no coach/player has done more to hurt a team.

Everyone has different opinions, but for me this crosses a line. The Astros have these incredibly talented, young players, but they still feel the need to cheat? I just don't get it.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,081
The assertion that the scheme was initially the players' doesn't mean Cora wasn't into it hip deep.
The first quote says that no non-player or technical personnel were involved. It then goes on to explicitly state how non-player/technical personnel were involved. No one is trying to absolve Alex Cora.
 

Green Monster

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,277
CT
Give all pitchers, catchers, and managers an Apple Watch...have them text pitch calls to each other...enforce a time clock to get the sign and make a pitch. No more signs being stolen, maybe even fewer trips to the mound.
Sounds exciting......can't wait to buy my tickets
 

SemperFidelisSox

Member
SoSH Member
May 25, 2008
31,104
Boston, MA
I’m curious whether Cora was asked about sign stealing when he was interviewing with the Sox.
To expand on this, how did Henry and Werner not have any inkling that Cora was involved in this during the hiring process? No former coaches or players or anyone within MLB gave them a heads up Cora was involved in a wide scale sign stealing scheme with his former employer?
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2006
11,624
The Coney Island of my mind
The first quote says that no non-player or technical personnel were involved. It then goes on to explicitly state how non-player/technical personnel were involved. No one is trying to absolve Alex Cora.
No, it means that no nonplayer personnel besides Cora were involved. I revised my post while you were putting your reply together-- the wording is twisted, but meaning is clear.
 

kartvelo

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2003
10,461
At home
I don't think they are worried about Cora skipping town.
He moved from one team to another. Everyone's known about the Astros banging trash cans for a while now, but (unless I misunderstood you) you speculated that Cora hadn't been punished for it yet because:
.
"I would guess they wanted to see if he brought the practices with him to Boston...so an ongoing investigation into him. "
 

PseuFighter

Silent scenester
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2003
14,408
Obviously not trying to rabbit hole, but I really do think this is the dagger that's going to crush the fan base / popularity of the team for awhile, that probably dates back to Papi's retirement, despite even winning a title in 2018 (which is a little crazy to say, but I'm saying it). Of course they could come out of the gate on a tear, but it seems pretty doubtful, and this just adds the whole "unlikeable" aspect of the club right now.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
Unless they nail Cora for 2018 Sox shenanigans, he won’t get hit worse than Hinch. Cora might have been helping to run the players’ scheme, or even masterminding it, but he was Hinch’s subordinate. And Hinch was standing right there, seeing and benefitting from everything, every day.

Also, the Sox won’t act until they know how/whether they’ll be hit.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,390
Unless they nail Cora for 2018 Sox shenanigans, he won’t get hit worse than Hinch. Cora might have been helping to run the players’ scheme, or even masterminding it, but he was Hinch’s subordinate. And Hinch was standing right there, seeing and benefitting from everything, every day.

The Sox won’t act until they know how/whether they’ll be hit.
Why wouldn't they nail Cora for 2018 shenanigans? I mean, apparently it's pretty clear they violated the rule that year.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 2, 2006
10,736
NJ
My question is how many of the non WS winning teams will they be investigating? Or are we supposed to believe it’s just 2 teams?
 

AMS25

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 29, 2008
3,122
Holland on the Plains
Obviously not trying to rabbit hole, but I really do think this is the dagger that's going to crush the fan base / popularity of the team for awhile, that probably dates back to Papi's retirement, despite even winning a title in 2018 (which is a little crazy to say, but I'm saying it). Of course they could come out of the gate on a tear, but it seems pretty doubtful, and this just adds the whole "unlikeable" aspect of the club right now.
This isn't fried chicken and beer with the subsequent Francona firing. I doubt it changes much.
 

mr_smith02

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2003
4,353
Upstate NY
Sounds exciting......can't wait to buy my tickets
How would this be any different than a QB looking down at the plays on his wrist or having an earpiece in his helmet? You'd simply look down at the device and see the number or word for the pitch needed to be thrown. Only three people would be able to see it. Is it really exciting to watch a catcher go through the signs several times then run out to the mound?
 

mr_smith02

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2003
4,353
Upstate NY
He moved from one team to another. Everyone's known about the Astros banging trash cans for a while now, but (unless I misunderstood you) you speculated that Cora hadn't been punished for it yet because:
.
"I would guess they wanted to see if he brought the practices with him to Boston...so an ongoing investigation into him. "
MLB has literally released a statement saying Cora's punishment for all of it was coming when they finish seeing what, if anything, he did in Boston too.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 10, 2017
5,963
Rob Manfred: “I specifically stated in the memorandum that the General Manager and Field Manager of Clubs would be held accountable for any violations of the rules in the future,” he writes. “Thus, all Clubs were put on notice as of September 15, 2017 that any use of electronic equipment to steal signs would be dealt with more severely by my office.”
Curious: what if Cora did not take a managerial job and was still an Astros coach would he be suspended? Manfred stated the TWO people who would be held responsible for violations...although I wonder if this is a "I have the right to change my mind" situation seeing as Cora as a non-player played such an integral role, and he'd be suspended anyway.
 

kartvelo

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2003
10,461
At home
MLB has literally released a statement saying Cora's punishment for all of it was coming when they finish seeing what, if anything, he did in Boston too.
Perhaps I'm mistaken... I thought his involvement with the HOU shenanigans was known long before there was any suggestion that there was any issue with BOS. That's what I thought the original poster was asking about (why didn't he get punished for that at the time?), and you were responding to (they were waiting to see if he did it in BOS too).
 

mr_smith02

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2003
4,353
Upstate NY
Perhaps I'm mistaken... I thought his involvement with the HOU shenanigans was known long before there was any suggestion that there was any issue with BOS. That's what I thought the original poster was asking about (why didn't he get punished for that at the time?), and you were responding to (they were waiting to see if he did it in BOS too).
My understanding is that MLB investigated the Astros, found that Cora was involved to a fair degree, learned there was talk from former Red Sox players that something inappropriate was going on during 2018 under Cora's direction too, so MLB decided it needed to further its investigation before making a final determination on Cora's punishment because Cora's actions spanned two seasons with two different franchises.

And, unless I missed something, the punishments for the Astros were handed out today. It seems logical that MLB would need a bit more time to ascertain all Cora did or did not do with both teams. Why punish him today for what he did in Houston only to come back a few weeks later to change the punishment based on what he may have done in Boston?
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,081
No, it means that no nonplayer personnel besides Cora were involved. I revised my post while you were putting your reply together-- the wording is twisted, but meaning is clear.
Except for the personnel who setup an illegal monitor in the hallway for him and the ones in the replay room who were relaying signs to the dugout on the replay phone.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
Lots of people just can't help but jump on any opportunity to virtue signal.

Baseball sign stealing is a nothingburger but any port in a storm, I guess.
To me it’s not about sign stealing.

Sign stealing was never against the rules. If you could do it, then everyone could do it, and the best team at it got an advantage. That’s all legit gamesmanship.

The Red Sox in 2018 were breaking a rule. That is much more serious. Part of the reason for the rule is that sign stealing from watching a video monitor is no longer a skill at all. All you do is download a free app, punch in the sequences for a few batters, and the computer tells you the signs. So, if it were legal and everyone did it, you ha e a different game that is decidedly worse than what you had previously. The playing field has tilted tremendously toward the pitchers — as evidence, home run records smashed to smithereens.

What the Astros did was even worse. They set up a system that was not only illegal, but exclusive to them. So, the Red Sox at least can say, “But, everyone is doing it!” As they throw themselves on the mercy of the court. The Astros can’t say that. They were flat out f’ing cheating.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.