The Game Goat Thread: Wk.2 at Seattle

Super Nomario

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Running out of time in both halves is likely a sign that the offense could do better and be more efficient.
You can make this argument about the final drive (when they had almost 2 minutes and 2 TOs to go 81 yards), but not the last drive in the first half, when they got the ball with 18 seconds left on their own 2.
 

cshea

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The play calling sequence that annoyed me the most was in the 4th quarter when it was 28-23. The Patriots had a 2nd and 2 around the 40. Dump off to Byrd that lost yardage and then the option to Burkhead that had no chance of success on 3rd and 5. Maybe it was execution more than the play calling but that was a frustrating sequence.
 

joe dokes

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It's hard to find a goat in a game like this, but I'll echo those who were surprised at how slow Bentley looked.
Anybody think that Harry's inability to break tackles (another disappointment) was a lingering effect from his fumble against Miami? A little gun-shy in the "trying for extra yards" category?
 

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The play calling sequence that annoyed me the most was in the 4th quarter when it was 28-23. The Patriots had a 2nd and 2 around the 40. Dump off to Byrd that lost yardage and then the option to Burkhead that had no chance of success on 3rd and 5. Maybe it was execution more than the play calling but that was a frustrating sequence.
The toss to Burkhead on that option was too far behind him and that ruined the play. Very badly done, but given Cam's success throwing the ball downfield the call itself wasn't very good at all.
 

joe dokes

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The toss to Burkhead on that option was too far behind him and that ruined the play. Very badly done, but given Cam's success throwing the ball downfield the call itself wasn't very good at all.
Collinsworth said the same thing. But on one replay, it looked like Newton was worried about a DL getting in the way of the "right" angle for the toss, so he threw it a little wider, which ended up behind Burkhead. while it was obvious on replay that he had enough room to make the toss, I think that angles are a little less obvious on the field.
 

Captaincoop

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To me it didn't look like that play was going anywhere no matter where he tossed it. Going from a 2nd and 2 to a punt without a penalty or major loss of yards is pretty inexcusable. Still think McDaniels was in the double digits on the list of reasons the Pats didn't win.
 

joe dokes

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To me it didn't look like that play was going anywhere no matter where he tossed it. Going from a 2nd and 2 to a punt without a penalty or major loss of yards is pretty inexcusable. Still think McDaniels was in the double digits on the list of reasons the Pats didn't win.
Me either. Collinsworth may be insufferable at times, but he knows more football than I do, and he thought a toss that led Burkhead might have allowed Burkhead to make the corner.
 

Garshaparra

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The Pats served notice last night that they’re going to be a handful for any opponent this season. As far as losses go, this was as good as it gets.
Indeed, this New Normal is where we were ~20 years ago. Brady was not the top QB he became, and mostly relied on a solid defense to batter the opponents into opportunity. You'll win more than you lose with this sort of team, and with an average schedule. Unfortunately, the Pats don't have an average schedule this year, so I still don't expect anything better than 8-8, but that will be a strong result.
 

8slim

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The obvious goat is the secondary. Not that I'm even all that mad about it, there's little way to stop the Seahawks between Russ and those elite WRs. But we didn't slow them down much at all, and that ultimately was the game.

Front 7 didn't get consistent pressure on Russ, nor could they consistently stop the run.

We lost so much on D in the off-season, there's no way this unit won't need a lot of time to become functional. Thankfully we won't face too many teams that can roll out weapons like Seattle.

Last goat is Michel. There were some holes that he plodded through for 4 yards, but a back with more speed gets us a lot more. I really hope we can find an alternative at HB, because I struggle to see how he's a plus player anymore.

I think the critiques of McDaniels are way off the mark. What he's doing with Cam is nothing short of astounding. Tons to build on, and I think 10 wins this year is a very attainable goal.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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D was pretty bad all night but once again came up big holding them on the last drive of the night, although the Seahawks helped with a horrible play call on third and short.
Terrible clock management by the Pats in the closing seconds...gotta call a timeout after Jules not ruled out (also maybe he might have been ruled out with extra time to look at the play) with about 30 seconds left.
Not sure about the decision to send Folk out for a 51 yarder...I guess if he was hitting them in pre-game, but the guy is simply not a legitimate FG kicker in this league...he can make XPs and easy FGs which I guess is something, but he cannot be trusted with anything over 40 yards, which is a huge handicap for this team.
 

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It feels really weird to even consider the question of who to blame here. They went into a game massively outgunned, had a tragedy strike a key skill-position player not long before game time, took advantage of opponents' mistakes (see e.g. pick-6), and had a very realistic chance to steal the game on the final play. Honestly, the end of the game almost felt like partial karmic retribution for the Malcolm Butler play, it was such a reversal. As the game ended, the thought that went through my head was "well, I can't say they let me down".

If there's one frustration I have, it's not calling their last timeout after the Edelman play that took them to the 16 yl with 0:36 remaining. From there, even if Harry gets downed at the 1 on the next play, you can hustle up to the line, run a pass play, and if incomplete then you have time to run another one. Maybe two. Instead, they let the clock run, and the Harry play ended with 0:03 on the clock.

That said, if there's one coach in the league who is above reproach on clock / timeout management - particularly against Seattle! - it's Belichick. So I'm choosing to believe he did it to prevent substitutions or something, rather than a belief that there was no tactical difference for him in the number of plays he'd get to run.
 

InstaFace

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Goat is off the line LB for me. Bentley in particular. They looked slow.

Edit: hopefully Uche gets healthy and gets an opportunity at some point
Winovich was a step slow on a couple plays too, though part of that is just Wilson having a great, nearly Bradyesque sixth sense for timing on getting rid of the ball.
 

chilidawg

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It's hard to find a goat in a game like this, but I'll echo those who were surprised at how slow Bentley looked.
Anybody think that Harry's inability to break tackles (another disappointment) was a lingering effect from his fumble against Miami? A little gun-shy in the "trying for extra yards" category?
This was my disappointment in Harry as well. His 1st Q catch that resulted in the ejection was amazing, but he had two RAC opportunities with acres of space and got ankle tackled on both. Little chance of fumbling there. Just didn't look like a guy who was going to make somebody miss. I hope he proves me wrong.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Unrelated, but Carroll should be getting destroyed today for that decision to throw deep on 3rd and 2 on Seattle's final drive. His defense bailed him out of a week's worth of questions. That was unbelievably stupid of him.
That third and 1 never happens if the Carson doesn't basically slide to a stop on the 1st down run with green grass in front of him and 2:03 on the clock, turning an 8-10 yard run into a 6 yard run. Then they give it to him again and he got 3 yards, and then Wilson chucks it deep. The result of that was the Pats only had to use 1 timeout to get the ball back.

If Carson doesn't go down and turns that first down run upfield, he gets very close to the 1st down, and if not, he probably gets it on the next carry, and the game is effectively over. I would have lost my shit if Sony Michel did that.
 

Captaincoop

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That third and 1 never happens if the Carson doesn't basically slide to a stop on the 1st down run with green grass in front of him and 2:03 on the clock, turning an 8-10 yard run into a 6 yard run. Then they give it to him again and he got 3 yards, and then Wilson chucks it deep. The result of that was the Pats only had to use 1 timeout to get the ball back.

If Carson doesn't go down and turns that first down run upfield, he gets very close to the 1st down, and if not, he probably gets it on the next carry, and the game is effectively over. I would have lost my shit if Sony Michel did that.
That was an amazing lack of awareness that got lost in the shuffle once the Pats got the ball back and put together that drive.

The Seahawks and Pete tried hard in those last few minutes to give it away.
 

8slim

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That third and 1 never happens if the Carson doesn't basically slide to a stop on the 1st down run with green grass in front of him and 2:03 on the clock, turning an 8-10 yard run into a 6 yard run. Then they give it to him again and he got 3 yards, and then Wilson chucks it deep. The result of that was the Pats only had to use 1 timeout to get the ball back.

If Carson doesn't go down and turns that first down run upfield, he gets very close to the 1st down, and if not, he probably gets it on the next carry, and the game is effectively over. I would have lost my shit if Sony Michel did that.
We can always count on the Seahawks to try their best to give games away. How many false starts did their OL get? 3? Plus a couple of personal fouls. Not exactly a shocker that a Pete Carroll is undisciplined, but it is always welcome.
 

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Getting back to that goal line play, it was the same one that they ran for a Cam TD earlier in the game. With no pre-season, limited practice time and a sudden pre-game scratch of their most versatile backfield weapon, I'm not sure what else we could expect McD to call in that situation. I'm sure that this early in the season, they don't have a whole host of call/counter-call plays drawn up for every situation with a brand new QB. I'm going to give Josh a bit of a pass here on that last play call and just tip my cap to the Seahawks defense for making the stop.
What I thought was notably different about the last play vs the first half version was Cam. In the first half, he took the snap and waited to see what would develop. On the last play, he took the snap and immediately took off, basically running himself right into the diving tackle. Maybe if he had held a beat, as he did in the first half, he could have better seen the play develop and taken off for the corner.
 

Harry Hooper

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We can always count on the Seahawks to try their best to give games away. How many false starts did their OL get? 3? Plus a couple of personal fouls. Not exactly a shocker that a Pete Carroll is undisciplined, but it is always welcome.
Yes, at one point Michaels (seemingly incredulously) noted Seattle had been flagged 6 times and the Pats 0 times, but that was entirely consistent with the history of both teams under their respective coaches.
 

Mooch

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What I thought was notably different about the last play vs the first half version was Cam. In the first half, he took the snap and waited to see what would develop. On the last play, he took the snap and immediately took off, basically running himself right into the diving tackle. Maybe if he had held a beat, as he did in the first half, he could have better seen the play develop and taken off for the corner.
That's fair, and Cam said so himself in the postgame presser.
 

BigSoxFan

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Yes, at one point Michaels (seemingly incredulously) noted Seattle had been flagged 6 times and the Pats 0 times, but that was entirely consistent with the history of both teams under their respective coaches.
And the jinx worked because I think right after Jones had his 3rd and 19 defensive hold on Lockett.
 

Silverdude2167

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What I thought was notably different about the last play vs the first half version was Cam. In the first half, he took the snap and waited to see what would develop. On the last play, he took the snap and immediately took off, basically running himself right into the diving tackle. Maybe if he had held a beat, as he did in the first half, he could have better seen the play develop and taken off for the corner.
If you watch the play from behind Cam you will see the MLB blow through the line.
Cam had to make a split-second read on what to do and did not have time to wait.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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If you watch the play from behind Cam you will see the MLB blow through the line.
Cam had to make a split-second read on what to do and did not have time to wait.
Mason got blown up by Wagner. In a perfect world Mason is able to pull into the land and with Johnson throwing a good block they clear the path for Cam. Neither of those things happened.
 

streeter88

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Can I say it even as one of the biggest Brady fans on planet earth? Yeah, I'm gonna say it. Cam Newton right now is significantly better than Tom Brady is right now. The Patriots let Brady go and *upgraded* at the QB position.

That didn't feel very good to type, but it's the truth.
This post deserves more love.

I am with every poster who said watching Cam is a joy, that he can beat you with his arm or his legs, that he is learning very fast, that he has done this with basically the same receivers Brady had last year. All of it.

Amazing to see him almost win that game last night, when the other guy threw 5 TD passes.

I am also excited by the smarts and leadership he is showing already, and hoping New England is falling in love with him. Can’t wait for next week.
 

steveluck7

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The play had no shot. I saw a replay this morning. On the angle they showed, you could see that by the time Cam had the ball and took his first step, the entire Seahawks front 7 + were on the Pats side of the LOS. They blew it up in every conceivable way.
 

Cotillion

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They came back and played well but the offense only put up 23 points after putting up 21 last week. The offensive success is getting overblown a bit because they finally figured things out with 4 mins left in the game. The 3rd quarter was particularly frustrating to watch.

Unrelated, but Carroll should be getting destroyed today for that decision to throw deep on 3rd and 2 on Seattle's final drive. His defense bailed him out of a week's worth of questions. That was unbelievably stupid of him.
Yeah, I actually thought that throw was the worst call of the night. A run pass option with Russ rolling out would’ve been fine, for example, but I think the risk-reward calculus got lopsided for Seattle on that play. I’d be curious if that was Russ’ first read, it seemed like it.
100% on Carroll. Russ is great on those but you have Russ and Carson. Run the ball.

I think the offense was solid and they clearly benefitted from Seattle losing some key guys. I was generally encouraged since the passing game made some big plays. Hard to know how much the injuries played a roll but don’t really care. It was great to see Harry play the role we all envisioned. And Byrd was solid as well. Just hope Jules can hold up.
How do you know the call was for a deep throw?

The replay showed Russel looked like he was eyeing a quick out or slant but the snap was so bad (it was way off to the side) that it throw off his mechanics and it took a beat or two for him to recover into position.
 

ShaneTrot

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I am more positive about Harry going forward. The most disappointing aspect of his game is he is a big rangy guy that so far has been easily tackled. There were a couple of plays last night, where if he breaks a tackle, he is getting a pretty good gain.

I am really trying with Michel but he just doesn't have the burst a quality back needs in the NFL.
 

BigSoxFan

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The play had no shot. I saw a replay this morning. On the angle they showed, you could see that by the time Cam had the ball and took his first step, the entire Seahawks front 7 + were on the Pats side of the LOS. They blew it up in every conceivable way.
Yup. The only shot was if someone escaped out of a block to catch a desperation pass. Izzo would have been open but he was on the side that Cam was running to so he was probably always designed to block.

Will be interesting to see the wrinkles they make out of this in future situations.
 

8slim

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I am more positive about Harry going forward. The most disappointing aspect of his game is he is a big rangy guy that so far has been easily tackled. There were a couple of plays last night, where if he breaks a tackle, he is getting a pretty good gain.

I am really trying with Michel but he just doesn't have the burst a quality back needs in the NFL.
Harry appears to be tough as nails, with good hands. If he can get better in that area you mentioned, he could be a very good WR.
 

Al Zarilla

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This post deserves more love.

I am with every poster who said watching Cam is a joy, that he can beat you with his arm or his legs, that he is learning very fast, that he has done this with basically the same receivers Brady had last year. All of it.

Amazing to see him almost win that game last night, when the other guy threw 5 TD passes.

I am also excited by the smarts and leadership he is showing already, and hoping New England is falling in love with him. Can’t wait for next week.
Sliding close to off topic but Good Morning Football on NFLN (Nate Burleson and those guys) were way high about Cam this morning. One of them said there could be about 16 GMs called into their owner's office this morning and asked "did you look at Cam Newton, and if so what about him made you think he wasn't worth a shot?" Went on to why is it always the Patriots that sign a Randy Moss or an Antonio Brown (briefly) last year. And now, Newton, playing for minimum wage? They see a good chance of another five years of an excellent coach paired with an excellent QB in new England.
 

Deathofthebambino

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The defender who kept Edelman from going OOB on that pass play in the final minute is one of the game ball heroes for Seattle.
That was Bobby Wagner.

Again. Guy made a bunch of big plays, and IMO, is probably one of the few truly good players on the Seattle defense, besides Adams, especially after Irvin and a few others got hurt.
 

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Yes, at one point Michaels (seemingly incredulously) noted Seattle had been flagged 6 times and the Pats 0 times, but that was entirely consistent with the history of both teams under their respective coaches.
And my sense at the time he said that was that not a single one of the flags was even remotely questionable.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Confession: I read the first page of the thread and got so frustrated with some of what I saw there that I went ahead and posted. So this may be repetitive, but...

McDaniels isn't a goat, he's a goddamn American hero.

Did some plays not work out? Sure. And maybe a couple of them even looked like bad choices in the moment. However, that's not the case for the vast majority (witness the overall offensive production) and, more importantly, he strategized the soup-to-nuts reinvention of the Patriots offense since the Brady era to become an incredibly effective and compelling machine in the space of a couple of months, with very little practice or time with his new QB. The Pats offense is so far ahead of where any reasonable person could expect it to be at this point in the season, and McD deserves oceans of credit for that. (As, of course, does Cam's talent and leadership.) Doesn't mean McD can't still have a bad game, but this sure as hell wasn't that.

I'll also bet that Folk is no worse than Gostkowski this year when all is said and done... but I'll further bet he's not nearly as good as Rodrigo Blankenship.

You know who was a goat? Sony Michel -- really useless in the running game. He was never great after contact, but as a rookie he slashed quickly and decisively and got his 6 yards over and over. And two years in, maybe he could learn how to catch a pass. I'd just start Burkhead, and hope Harris is up to the job when his hand recovers.

And Bentley also seemed overmatched. I think he's playing more snaps than his skill/experience merit.
 

cshea

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If there's one frustration I have, it's not calling their last timeout after the Edelman play that took them to the 16 yl with 0:36 remaining. From there, even if Harry gets downed at the 1 on the next play, you can hustle up to the line, run a pass play, and if incomplete then you have time to run another one. Maybe two. Instead, they let the clock run, and the Harry play ended with 0:03 on the clock.
I was yelling for the timeout at the time, but I actually think they handled it right. Leaving the timeout in their pocket preserved the playbook. If they took the timeout then they have to throw to the end zone, with the Seahawks probably dropping 8 guys n coverage. I guess on first down they could still throw short and then spike it but then they're wasting a down on a spike.

They ended up running 3 plays after the Edelman catch to the 12. If they took the timeout, it's 4 throws into a jammed endzone or a short throw, spike and maybe 1-2 more plays if they get the spike quick.
 

Norm Siebern

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Nick Folk. Yes, a 51 yard attempt is difficult, but if he makes that, then they don't try for a 2 point conversion later. So essentially they left 4 points on the field. If they had those 4 points, then Folk is lined up for an 18 harder to win the game at the end.

I am surprised this team has not adequately addressed the FG kicking issue that is now in its second year. I have come to expect more from them, especially in an area as crucial as special teams.
 

nighthob

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I think this is a bit harsh. Firstly, the stolen draft picks have finally come home to roost. Secondly, as you noted DK was the first WR off the board, so barring a trade he wasn't ending up in NE. That's not a BB/Caserio miss.
His numbers are off, Harry was the second receiver drafted last year, Metcalf the ninth. With New England’s second round pick. The Pats got Winovich out of it, so I’m not complaining too much. I just wish they’d drafted something better than a run of the mill possession receiver in the first round.
 

BaseballJones

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The mistake was once they got a first down at like the 12 with 25 seconds left, they ran a play instead of spiking it. They threw to Edelman in the end zone off his hands (soooo close!), but by the time that play was over, there were just 9 seconds left. If they had spiked it, there would have been about 15 seconds left. So it would have given them time for another play, which likely would have come in handy on the last play, as it would have come with like 8 seconds left instead of 2, which means they could have had two shots at the touchdown (assuming they passed incomplete on the first one).
 

Reggie's Racquet

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I don't consider McDaniels a goat I just wish he had kept the trick/rub play to Johnson at the goal line in his pocket for that last play. Yes we needed the points at the time but it was not a critical conversion like the last one. That's just my opinion but hindsight is always easier. Our running backs and running game is concerning...14 rushes (by running backs) for a total of 21 yards is just terrible.
 
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DJnVa

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Nick Folk. Yes, a 51 yard attempt is difficult, but if he makes that, then they don't try for a 2 point conversion later. So essentially they left 4 points on the field. If they had those 4 points, then Folk is lined up for an 18 harder to win the game at the end.

I am surprised this team has not adequately addressed the FG kicking issue that is now in its second year. I have come to expect more from them, especially in an area as crucial as special teams.
Yes, you'd rather he not miss a FG, but I have a hard time thinking the game plays out exactly the same way from there on out had Folk made the score 17-14 NE with 3:30 minutes left in the second quarter.
 

Norm Siebern

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Yes, you'd rather he not miss a FG, but I have a hard time thinking the game plays out exactly the same way from there on out had Folk made the score 17-14 NE with 3:30 minutes left in the second quarter.
Absolutely fair comment. I am still surprised they have not better addressed this problem.
 

Super Nomario

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You know who was a goat? Sony Michel -- really useless in the running game. He was never great after contact, but as a rookie he slashed quickly and decisively and got his 6 yards over and over. And two years in, maybe he could learn how to catch a pass. I'd just start Burkhead, and hope Harris is up to the job when his hand recovers.
Sony had 7 carries for 19 yards, which is terrible, but Burkhead had 6 carries for 2 yards, so I'm not sure more of him is the answer, at least in the run game. The OL got worked last night. Honestly the Pats got dominated at both lines of scrimmage, all game long.
 

bigq

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Absolutely fair comment. I am still surprised they have not better addressed this problem.
They are trying and recently picked up the first kicker selected in the draft. I guess he could yet become their kicker of the future. Unfortunately draft picks aren’t all hits.
 

Deathofthebambino

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The mistake was once they got a first down at like the 12 with 25 seconds left, they ran a play instead of spiking it. They threw to Edelman in the end zone off his hands (soooo close!), but by the time that play was over, there were just 9 seconds left. If they had spiked it, there would have been about 15 seconds left. So it would have given them time for another play, which likely would have come in handy on the last play, as it would have come with like 8 seconds left instead of 2, which means they could have had two shots at the touchdown (assuming they passed incomplete on the first one).
If I was in the game thread last night, you would have seen me screaming about it. As I'm want to do when coaches don't just get up to the line and spike the ball. BB and Brady were the best at this and almost never made a mistake when figuring out when to spike, not spike, but I was screaming for it last night. I agreed with not using a timeout, but as I've said a million times, when teams run up to the line, then get a play called in, it seems like 90% of the time, the next play is an incompletion (or something worse), so they waste 10-15 seconds to end up at 2nd and 10, which is exactly where they would be if they just spiked it. If they don't convert on 2nd down, 3rd down and 4th down, the clock is going to expire anyway, so that 1st down play is basically meaningless. Use it preserve clock.
 

BaseballJones

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If I was in the game thread last night, you would have seen me screaming about it. As I'm want to do when coaches don't just get up to the line and spike the ball. BB and Brady were the best at this and almost never made a mistake when figuring out when to spike, not spike, but I was screaming for it last night. I agreed with not using a timeout, but as I've said a million times, when teams run up to the line, then get a play called in, it seems like 90% of the time, the next play is an incompletion (or something worse), so they waste 10-15 seconds to end up at 2nd and 10, which is exactly where they would be if they just spiked it. If they don't convert on 2nd down, 3rd down and 4th down, the clock is going to expire anyway, so that 1st down play is basically meaningless. Use it preserve clock.
100% correct.
 

Harry Hooper

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If I was in the game thread last night, you would have seen me screaming about it. As I'm want to do when coaches don't just get up to the line and spike the ball. BB and Brady were the best at this and almost never made a mistake when figuring out when to spike, not spike, but I was screaming for it last night. I agreed with not using a timeout, but as I've said a million times, when teams run up to the line, then get a play called in, it seems like 90% of the time, the next play is an incompletion (or something worse), so they waste 10-15 seconds to end up at 2nd and 10, which is exactly where they would be if they just spiked it. If they don't convert on 2nd down, 3rd down and 4th down, the clock is going to expire anyway, so that 1st down play is basically meaningless. Use it preserve clock.
Pats aren't most teams in terms of prep, so I'll take going forward with a play there rather than letting the defense literally and figuratively take a breath.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
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Pats aren't most teams in terms of prep, so I'll take going forward with a play there rather than letting the defense literally and figuratively take a breath.
Well, if we're constantly going to continue with the "In Bill we Trust" mantra, I guess we don't need to question anything they do.

I will say, sure looked like the Pats receivers could have used some breath of their own there. They were exhausted on that last drive and rightfully so.

If folks only watch the Pats, they probably haven't noticed how badly teams screw up the 2 minute offense at the end of games/halves by not spiking the ball when they should, because like I said, the Pats have almost always gotten it right over the last 20 years. But last night, they got it wrong. It's ok to point it out. If that ball was picked off, instead of being an incompletion, maybe it would be more clear, or if Cam got sacked (which happens quite often when teams rush to the line and their offensive line isn't ready) and they were forced to use the timeout on that next play. As it turned out, the incompletion wasn't a terrible result, but first and goal with about 12 seconds left instead of first and goal with 3 seconds left would have been nice.