Daniel Theis to Chicago for Mo Wagner

scottyno

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Ah, didn't see they gave up a pick. Weird trade for them, given that he's a UFA.
Actually looking at the details now I'm not sure if Cs got a pick or not, initially reports were they were getting a 2nd. The bulls are trying to make the playoffs this year, after the moves today they should be a favorite to do it. They're giving up very little for a small improvement so why not.
 

Imbricus

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So if we got Kornet too, what does that mean for Tacko? He was hardly playing at all anyway, but he can't be thrilled about being the No. 5 option at center.
 

oumbi

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So if we got Kornet too, what does that mean for Tacko? He was hardly playing at all anyway, but he can't be thrilled about being the No. 5 option at center.
Maybe, but maybe Kornet is the 5th option. Fall's per 36 stats are much better....but let's face it, such stats are bullshit for comparing these two. Sigh.
 

The Mort Report

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So if we got Kornet too, what does that mean for Tacko? He was hardly playing at all anyway, but he can't be thrilled about being the No. 5 option at center.
As much fun as Tacko is, and how much I Iove how the bench and this board reacts to him doing a flat footed dunk with 47 seconds left in the 4th up 31, I think its time to move on from him
 

HoyaSoxa

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Theis lived in Needham? Where? I lived for two years on Grant Street right behind the hospital.
The house is right by Needham Golf Club - his back yard (which had a very nice basketball court installed during the pandemic break) abuts the parking lot. Has two dogs and two little kids.
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
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The house is right by Needham Golf Club - his back yard (which had a very nice basketball court installed during the pandemic break) abuts the parking lot. Has two dogs and two little kids.
Damn, I did a ton of walking around town during the pandemic. Never noticed a 6'9" inked up guy though.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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What's the O/U on number of games Theis plays for the Bulls before Billy Donovan gets tossed for arguing a call against Theis? I'm saying 10.

Theis got more bad whistles than any player I can remember in the NBA. It was comical at times how much he got screwed.

I'm a Theis fan, but I'm also a fan of the moves today, so no hard feelings here, just a few mixed emotions.
Nothing has ever been more true.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He’a the rare NBA barely made the league player whose father was a barely made the league player, Frank Kornet. So he’s second Kornet.
I’m so SMH at Ainge’s predictable failure to make an impact move that I may compile a list of these families tonight. That’s how I feel tonight as a Celtics fan. It will be interesting to see how JT/JB/MS respond to adding an expiring contract and losing a rotation player for tax purposes.
 

Ale Xander

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I’m so SMH at Ainge’s predictable failure to make an impact move that I may compile a list of these families tonight. That’s how I feel tonight as a Celtics fan. It will be interesting to see how JT/JB/MS respond to adding an expiring contract and losing a rotation player for tax purposes.
What sort of move were you looking for?
 

HomeRunBaker

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What sort of move were you looking for?
One that would eliminate Semi and Grant from playing significant minutes to improve the team heading into next season. Instead not only will we see MORE of them now that Theis is gone.....we’ll probably get some Tacko as well. So yeah, I was hoping we’d improve. We didn’t.

1. Barnes
2. Gordon
 

Ale Xander

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One that would eliminate Semi and Grant from playing significant minutes to improve the team heading into next season. Instead not only will we see MORE of them now that Theis is gone.....we’ll probably get some Tacko as well. So yeah, I was hoping we’d improve. We didn’t.

1. Barnes
2. Gordon
Eric, Aaron, or Hayward?
 

Captaincoop

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I’m so SMH at Ainge’s predictable failure to make an impact move that I may compile a list of these families tonight. That’s how I feel tonight as a Celtics fan. It will be interesting to see how JT/JB/MS respond to adding an expiring contract and losing a rotation player for tax purposes.
Do the Brunsons count?
 

mauf

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Theis got more bad whistles than any player I can remember in the NBA. It was comical at times how much he got screwed.
Getting foul calls is an art. LeBron is like Picasso. Theis is LeRoy Neiman.

Sorry to see him go, but it was time. They needed Fournier more. Also, Theis was more of a good-for-the-money player than a truly good one; as others have said, he’s going to get paid this summer, so his time as an undervalued asset was drawing to a close. I’ll always wish him well.
 

DourDoerr

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Good luck to Theis. He worked hard, but as mentioned, the refs were sadistic in their treatment of him. It was as if a dozen Tim Peel‘s worked in the NBA and Theis was their Nashville.

Also, have to think the team’s tattoo count took a significant hit. I wonder if the move emboldens him to take more three’s.
 

scottyno

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One that would eliminate Semi and Grant from playing significant minutes to improve the team heading into next season. Instead not only will we see MORE of them now that Theis is gone.....we’ll probably get some Tacko as well. So yeah, I was hoping we’d improve. We didn’t.

1. Barnes
2. Gordon
Fournier is going to play 30 minutes a night. Whose minutes do you think he's taking if not for Semis among others?

I'm also baffled how you don't think adding a guy that scores 20 ppg and would be the Cs most efficient wing scorer isn't improving.

If it works out this year then moving Theis to stay under the tax gives them a good chance to re-sign him.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Fournier is going to play 30 minutes a night. Whose minutes do you think he's taking if not for Semis among others?

I'm also baffled how you don't think adding a guy that scores 20 ppg and would be the Cs most efficient wing scorer isn't improving.

If it works out this year then moving Theis to stay under the tax gives them a good chance to re-sign him.
I don’t see how Fournier will affect minutes at the 4 unless we begin playing super small ball. He’ll replace all of the Teague minutes and I’d imagine some of Pritchard’s. I seriously doubt he gets 30 mpg in the games we are at full strength.

Fournier avg 20 ppg on high usage out of default on a team with few options, 2nd on the Magic.......Terrance Ross was getting up 14 FGA/g as a 3rd option as somebody needed to create shots. He will be no better than 4th here and fighting for shots with Smart. He isn’t scoring close to 20 ppg in the role he’ll be in. I liked the trade IF it accompanied a front court player that would fill many holes.....instead we lost a frontcourt player which now creates more holes in addition to the one Ainge failed to fill. Not crazy about the fit as a stand-alone addition without the team improving its roster and not getting touches here isn’t going to make him too happy in a contract year.
 

radsoxfan

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Yeah, the Theis to Fournier swap for this season is going to lead to fewer Grant/Semi minutes and an overall minor team upgrade.

Unlikely the big upgrade some wanted, but we are still better than yesterday.

Will be interesting to see what happens next year and if Fournier is a part of the future, probably depends how thighs go the next couple of months.
 

radsoxfan

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I don’t see how Fournier will affect minutes at the 4 unless we begin playing super small ball. He’ll replace all of the Teague minutes and I’d imagine some of Pritchard’s. I seriously doubt he gets 30 mpg in the games we are at full strength.
Isn't Fournier pretty clearly a "wing"? How is he not going to affect Semi/Grant minutes? I don't think there is a huge distinction in minutes at the 2, 3 or 4 to Brad. Having someone who doesn't suck and can play 30 minutes on the wing is going to be nice.

Perhaps it will push Tatum or Brown to minutes at the "4" sometimes, who knows. I still think Semi and Grant will play unfortunately, but I expect Fournier to get 25-30 min a game and those will have to eat into Semi/Grant rather than Tatum, Brown, Smart, etc.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah, the Theis to Fournier swap for this season is going to lead to fewer Grant/Semi minutes and an overall minor team upgrade.

Unlikely the big upgrade some wanted, but we are still better than yesterday.

Will be interesting to see what happens next year and if Fournier is a part of the future, probably depends how thighs go the next couple of months.
What do you expect Fournier’s role to look like here? With the elimination of a rotation big I’d expect this to lead to MORE minutes for Grant/Semi. Maybe Brad will shift gears though and go super small. We’ll see. This may get ugly if JT/JB/MS don’t buy in.
 

Cellar-Door

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One that would eliminate Semi and Grant from playing significant minutes to improve the team heading into next season. Instead not only will we see MORE of them now that Theis is gone.....we’ll probably get some Tacko as well. So yeah, I was hoping we’d improve. We didn’t.

1. Barnes
2. Gordon
I see no reason that Aaron Gordon would have played more minute than Fournier.

Fournier is going to get about 30 minutes a night. Tacko will likely get the same none he does now.

This move is tightening the rotation... Teague and Javonte are being moved out, the 2 big lineup is gone, TL will pick up minutes.

I don’t see how Fournier will affect minutes at the 4 unless we begin playing super small ball. He’ll replace all of the Teague minutes and I’d imagine some of Pritchard’s. I seriously doubt he gets 30 mpg in the games we are at full strength.
You have the model in the 2019-20 Celtics. We started 1 big, Kemba and some combination of Tatum, Brown, Smart, Hayward in basically all of the games last year, and Hayward was not playing the 4. We'll do the same now, with Fournier taking the Hayward role.

Also, Wagner will be a bench big, taking the type of 5-10 minute big role we wanted and freeing TL to play 5-10 more minutes a game.

We'll also likely add at least 1 buyout guy replacing Kornet.

This does exactly what people asked for all year, add another wing who can create offense, shorten the guard rotation, shorten the big rotation, eliminate one of the bad bench wings (Javonte).
Semi and Grant may or may not play much, it will depend on injuries and how Langford/Nesmith develop. Either way, with the team now getting closer to healthy, you're talking about Semi/Grant as fighting for 9th/10th man situational minutes.
Tatum, Brown, Smart, Kemba, TL, Fournier, TT, PP, are your starting 5, backup big, backup wing and backup PG. That leaves everyone else fighting for the scraps. Semi Ojeleye shouldn't be your 6th man, if he's a situational 9th... that's not bad.
 

radsoxfan

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What do you expect Fournier’s role to look like here? With the elimination of a rotation but I’d expect this to lead to MORE minutes for Grant/Semi. Maybe Brad will shift gears though and go super small. We’ll see
I think Brad is smart enough to know it's more important to play people that aren't terrible than focus on the distinction between a 2, 3, or 4.

I expect Fournier to play 25-30 min a game and for that to primarily take away from the dreck we have been seeing off the bench rather than any of the Kemba/Smart/Tatum/Brown minutes.

Less of Grant and Semi, more 1 big and 4 small (PG and wing) lineups.
 

TripleOT

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Hayward got 13.5 shots per game last season. With Fournier in that role, he should get around the same 14.2 shots he got in Orlando. Hayward is a bit better the all around player, but was always injured.

If Fournier can score as efficiently in Boston as he has been in Orlando, and play some defense, I don’t see how this trade can’t be seen as a big win. They replaced GH with a very similar player at a bit more than half the salary.

If he proves to be a great fit with they Jays, they can probably lock him up for $18-20m a season, which to me is a better proposition than investing 50% more per season in the brittle Hayward.
 

mcpickl

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What do you expect Fournier’s role to look like here? With the elimination of a rotation big I’d expect this to lead to MORE minutes for Grant/Semi. Maybe Brad will shift gears though and go super small. We’ll see. This may get ugly if JT/JB/MS don’t buy in.
It won't be super small, it'll be very similar to last year with Fournier replacing the similar sized Hayward.

I'd imagine there will be a ton of minutes with three of Tatum/Brown/Smart/Fournier with one of TT/Rob Williams and one of Kemba/Pritchard.

Like a standard NBA lineup

Edit: guess I type too slow, everyone said the exact same thing
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Wait, I'm confused.

Havent people been saying one of TT/DT/TL needed to go? And that we all wanted to see more minutes go to Timelord? Doesnt this move free up cap and minutes for TL?
 

scottyno

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What do you expect Fournier’s role to look like here? With the elimination of a rotation big I’d expect this to lead to MORE minutes for Grant/Semi. Maybe Brad will shift gears though and go super small. We’ll see. This may get ugly if JT/JB/MS don’t buy in.
Kemba, Smart, Tatum and Brown are averaging a combined 130 or so minutes a game right now. Williams and TT will cover most of the 48 center minutes. Where are these minutes for Grant and Semi coming from once you add Fournier into the mix if everyone is healthy?
 

radsoxfan

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Kemba, Smart, Tatum and Brown are averaging a combined 130 or so minutes a game right now. Williams and TT will cover most of the 48 center minutes. Where are these minutes for Grant and Semi coming from once you add Fournier into the mix if everyone is healthy?
Agreed. I think the key is that we should assume Brad will focus on playing the best players rather than forcing specific positions or fit.

No reason to decrease any minutes for our top guys and no reason Grant or Semi should eat into 25-30 minutes from Fournier.

The rest falls into place on it's own.
 

benhogan

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Wait, I'm confused.

1. Havent people been saying one of TT/DT/TL needed to go?
2.And that we all wanted to see more minutes go to Timelord?
3. Doesnt this move free up cap and minutes for TL?
1. Yes, one of the BIGs needed to go. We mainly speculated that it would be TT. No team probably wanted him, 2yrs at $19MM will do that since a contender can get Drummond or Aldridge for free on the buyout market. BEEF centers are the most fungible, cheapest thing in the market.

2. Yes, we want and will see more minutes from Rob Williams. He's the best, most dynamic BIG we have on this team. Has been all season. Hopefully, he can stay healthy.

3. Moving Theis got us under the cap. Yes more minutes for TL. Wagner will be the 3rd string Center. We'll see a little of Grant, everybody's favorite, as a small-ball 5. Kornet will probably get bought out and Kelly O may return after he is bought out? Tacko continues to be break the glass insurance at Center. 5th or 6th string. No one should be grabbing their pearls at the thought of Tacko playing meaningful minutes, that's not happening.
 
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scottyno

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TT having an extra year is a good thing for the Cs. It guarantees that if they want to they can go into next year with TL and TT covering almost all the center minutes at acceptable or better production for only 13m, and it gives them a decent salary filler that it won't kill them to lose if they're making a bigger move.
 

benhogan

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TT having an extra year is a good thing for the Cs. It guarantees that if they want to they can go into next year with TL and TT covering almost all the center minutes at acceptable or better production for only 13m, and it gives them a decent salary filler that it won't kill them to lose if they're making a bigger move.
I liked Theis better as a player, but keeping TT for all the reasons you stated makes sense (esp the filler in a bigger deal this Summer).

TT also started playing much better when he wasn't sharing time on the floor with Theis. Let's hope he gets back soon. Maybe the Brad Machine can turn Wagner into something useful in the meantime, like set screens, play physical defense, get deflections, and draw charges.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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1. Yes, one of the BIGs needed to go. We mainly speculated that it would be TT. No team probably wanted him, 2yrs at $19MM will do that since a contender can get Drummond or Aldridge for free on the buyout market. BEEF centers are the most fungible, cheapest thing in the market.

2. Yes, we want and will see more minutes from Rob Williams. He's the best, most dynamic BIG we have on this team. Has been all season. Hopefully, he can stay healthy.

3. Moving Theis got us under the cap. Yes more minutes for TL. Wagner will be the 3rd string Center. We'll see a little of Grant, everybody's favorite, as a small-ball 5. Kornet will probably get bought out and Kelly O may return after he is bought out? Tacko continues to be break the glass insurance at Center. 5th or 6th string. No one should be grabbing their pearls at the thought of Tacko playing meaningful minutes, that's not happening.
Thanks for confirming this.

I get the disappointment of not getting a bigger name at the deadline, but this move seems to be an overall net positive. A little surprised by some of the negative takes.
 

benhogan

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Thanks for confirming this.

I get the disappointment of not getting a bigger name at the deadline, but this move seems to be an overall net positive. A little surprised by some of the negative takes.
No doubt Fournier will be a nice addition, the team was desperate for a wing and the knock-on effect should not be underestimated

I liked Theis and so do most adv metrics. He was familiar with the system and started for an EC Championship team last season. I'm surprised there isn't more chair flipping around here. BUT I'm really interested in just seeing TL given more latitude in this screwed-up COVID season, so not going to pick nits about Theis vs Thompson.

The TT contract does give me hope that Danny & Co have something in mind this summer for matching purposes. Danny also secured a $5MM TPE for next season's trade deadline, when they should be more aggressive with the spending, so he did turn Theis expiring into a small, future asset.
 
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lovegtm

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No doubt Fournier will be a nice addition, the team was desperate for a wing and the knock-on effect should not be underestimated

I liked Theis and so do most adv metrics. He was familiar with the system and started for an EC Championship team last season. I'm surprised there isn't more chair flipping around here. BUT I'm really interested in just seeing TL given more latitude in this screwed-up COVID season, so not going to pick nits about Theis vs Thompson.

The TT contract does give me hope that Danny & Co have something in mind this summer for matching purposes. Danny also secured a $5MM TPE for next season's trade deadline, when they should be more aggressive with the spending, so he did turn Theis expiring into a small, future asset.
I think if the team looked closer to contention, they would have been more likely to ship TT out or eat the tax with Theis.

It’s probably time to start talking about possible summer moves soon.
 

Strike4

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I liked Theis and so do most adv metrics. He was familiar with the system and started for an EC Championship team last season. I'm surprised there isn't more chair flipping around here.
I really liked Theis too but I think he became a victim of circumstances beyond his control. He's not quite a traditional big, not quite a stretch big - but at the same time he's a pretty good player for the right team. Combined with the benefit of moving his salary, the "not quites" were enough to trade him. It clarifies that TT and TL are the bigs and that Stevens will rely on another combination for stretch when needed. A good side benefit of the Celtics trades all together is solidifying roles for the top 8-10 players on the team. Makes the coaches' and players' jobs easier as they try and focus for a playoff run.
 

BaseballJones

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One that would eliminate Semi and Grant from playing significant minutes to improve the team heading into next season. Instead not only will we see MORE of them now that Theis is gone.....we’ll probably get some Tacko as well. So yeah, I was hoping we’d improve. We didn’t.

1. Barnes
2. Gordon
I don't really understand. They got a borderline all-star player that fills a HUGE need for them and it cost them virtually nothing to make that acquisition. Fournier is MUCH better than what they had and it could be argued that he immediately becomes the third or fourth best player on the team upon arrival. That's a significant get even if it's not everything you wanted.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I don't really understand. They got a borderline all-star player that fills a HUGE need for them and it cost them virtually nothing to make that acquisition. Fournier is MUCH better than what they had and it could be argued that he immediately becomes the third or fourth best player on the team upon arrival. That's a significant get even if it's not everything you wanted.
It's HRB. He's a hot take machine lately and doesn't even fact check his own posts so says things like Lilliard and Harden are late first round picks.
 

lovegtm

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It's HRB. He's a hot take machine lately and doesn't even fact check his own posts so says things like Lilliard and Harden are late first round picks.
He’s salty because he was sure the Celtics internal evaluation of TL was shaky and Brad was “coachspeaking”. Then that turned out to be very obviously wrong instantly and things got weird.

HRB is great whenever he’s not wrong, but when he is, things quickly devolve into performance art.

To be fair, I should just write an encyclopedia of each poster’s mannerisms sometime. I think I could be suitably negative towards everyone.
 

CreightonGubanich

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It's been mostly covered, but I think not only does Fournier eat most of the Grant/Semi minutes, he also solves some of the rotation conundrums Brad's dealt with all season. We've heard Brad explicitly state that he was playing three bigs - TT, TL, Theis - because he recognized that those guys were three of his best eight players, not because he thought that two-big lineups were some sort of zig against the modern NBA zag. He also constantly flipped Pritchard and Teague in the hierarchy, for reasons that are somewhat unclear, but I would guess because he genuinely wasn't sure which one gave the team a better chance to win night to night.

Now they have two bigs that need to play, and Wagner who's fine as a depth guy if someone is out or in foul trouble, but doesn't need minutes penciled in. They have three point guards - Kemba, Smart, and Pritchard. The wing minutes will largely be split between Tatum, Brown, Fournier, and Smart (alongside Kemba or Pritchard). Grant or Semi will play spot minutes against certain specific matchups, like they did last season, rather than being called on to start or play 30 minutes a night.

They'll definitely be smaller, but I wouldn't call it "super small". A lineup with Tatum at the four should have been the plan all along. He's 6'10", he's not undersized in that big wing role in the NBA today. Add in that Brown defends bigger guys really well, and Fournier has the size the guard most wings passably, and it's pretty clear what they're trying to do here. They're going to play one big, and switch pretty much all non-Kemba pick-and-rolls. I think getting away from the switch-everything defense that they wanted to play last year has really hurt the team defense this season. The return to it, along with infinitely more space for Brown, Kemba and Tatum to operate, I think makes a pretty dramatic difference on both ends of the floor.
 

lovegtm

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It's been mostly covered, but I think not only does Fournier eat most of the Grant/Semi minutes, he also solves some of the rotation conundrums Brad's dealt with all season. We've heard Brad explicitly state that he was playing three bigs - TT, TL, Theis - because he recognized that those guys were three of his best eight players, not because he thought that two-big lineups were some sort of zig against the modern NBA zag. He also constantly flipped Pritchard and Teague in the hierarchy, for reasons that are somewhat unclear, but I would guess because he genuinely wasn't sure which one gave the team a better chance to win night to night.

Now they have two bigs that need to play, and Wagner who's fine as a depth guy if someone is out or in foul trouble, but doesn't need minutes penciled in. They have three point guards - Kemba, Smart, and Pritchard. The wing minutes will largely be split between Tatum, Brown, Fournier, and Smart (alongside Kemba or Pritchard). Grant or Semi will play spot minutes against certain specific matchups, like they did last season, rather than being called on to start or play 30 minutes a night.

They'll definitely be smaller, but I wouldn't call it "super small". A lineup with Tatum at the four should have been the plan all along. He's 6'10", he's not undersized in that big wing role in the NBA today. Add in that Brown defends bigger guys really well, and Fournier has the size the guard most wings passably, and it's pretty clear what they're trying to do here. They're going to play one big, and switch pretty much all non-Kemba pick-and-rolls. I think getting away from the switch-everything defense that they wanted to play last year has really hurt the team defense this season. The return to it, along with infinitely more space for Brown, Kemba and Tatum to operate, I think makes a pretty dramatic difference on both ends of the floor.
Tatum is longer than most 4s and gets more jacked every year. Brown is strong as hell with length. The whole "who will play the 4????" thing is so dumb as to barely need addressing.

The Celtics have tons of problems, and yet people somehow always find a way to focus on the few things that aren't problems.
 

DGreenwood

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Danny also secured a $5MM TPE for next season's trade deadline, when they should be more aggressive with the spending, so he did turn Theis expiring into a small, future asset.
How did the Celtics pick up a $5 million trade exception? The Celtics sent out $6.5 million in the Theis/Green trade but brought $4.4 million back in.