Celtics Plan, Summer 2021

nighthob

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We couldn't make the pick because that would add salary next season, which puts signing Beal out of reach. Likewise any players we could get for Marcus - we'd have had to trade him for an expiring contract and a first round pick further in the future or it would ruin the cap next year.
In a vacuum the 16th pick was fine. They had to unload Kemba's 2023 salary and that was the price. Al has $14 million guaranteed for '23, which works out to a cap hit of roughly $4.7 million in a stretch & waive. Or a little over $30 million less than Kemba's guaranteed money.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Premise 1: NBA players peak at 26. Big improvements can be expected of Langford and Nesmith; incremental improvements from Tatum, Brown, Pritchard, Robert Williams, and Grant Williams. Smart, Richardson and Dunn have already peaked, but recently. Only Horford v2021 is in a rapid decline phase.
I don’t disagree with your point but that 26 number is way too low imo. Some will stagnate there but I’ve always used 28-30 at my avg peak window when a player has learned the game enough to still be able to implement their athleticism before beginning to lose it.
 

benhogan

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I can’t imagine PBS trading a future first round pick for one season of Anderson. I was wondering if the Thompson trade could be expanded to bring back Thaddeus Young.
It feels like the Celtics got as much mileage out of the TT trade as possible
 

EL Jeffe

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They just need the right mix around the JayCrew. The Clippers made the Western Conference Finals with a squad that's an older version of this one. If Nesmith makes the same second year leap that he's made at every previous level Boston might actually be in good shape (i.e. he'll be a real asset for a Beal deal or a great fallback if Beal decides to waste his career in DC).
Maybe, but I have a hard time imagining this squad doing what the Clippers did last year. It would essentially take everything to break just right in terms of player development and health though. I just think they're treading water until next offseason when they have the opportunity to land Beal (or Plan B, if it comes to that). Then again, I wouldn't have predicted Atlanta being an ECF team last year, so what do I know? Sports, man.

TL, Horford
Tatum, Grant W.
Brown, Nesmith
Richardson, Langford
Smart, Pritchard

it's a playoff team (I'm reasonably certain), but an ECF team? It'd be a fun ride, if it were to happen.
 

pjheff

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It feels like the Celtics got as much mileage out of the TT trade as possible
As far as I know, the trade still isn’t completed. In the process, the Kanter TPE has expired. I’m guessing that Stevens is exploring the possibility of bringing back a player at up to 125% of his contract (~$12M) instead of a $9.7M exception.
 

nighthob

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Maybe, but I have a hard time imagining this squad doing what the Clippers did last year. It would essentially take everything to break just right in terms of player development and health though. I just think they're treading water until next offseason when they have the opportunity to land Beal (or Plan B, if it comes to that). Then again, I wouldn't have predicted Atlanta being an ECF team last year, so what do I know? Sports, man.

TL, Horford
Tatum, Grant W.
Brown, Nesmith
Richardson, Langford
Smart, Pritchard

it's a playoff team (I'm reasonably certain), but an ECF team? It'd be a fun ride, if it were to happen.
Assuming that Brown's healthy that's not only a playoff team, it's a pretty good playoff team. By replacing Walker with Richardson and adding Horford to the C spot they've made a major defensive upgrade which will help spare their two primary scorers. Nesmith's defense really came on at year's end, if he builds on that that gives them a real 3&D player on the wing. But primarily what makes them a second tier contender is Tatum's performance after recovering from covid. He was a holy terror. That player will take a team a long way. Especially as there are other guys to do the grunt work.
 

Sprowl

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I get that 3rd year players don't typically play in the summer league. BUT, is a couple extra weeks of individual workouts really better training for him than summer league? I'm a little surprised - I'd think he should be doing everything he can to show the Celtics that he can contribute.
I suspect that Williams is trying to show the Celtics that he can get in peak physical condition. One thing we know from 2021 is that Granite cannot play himself into shape. I think that's even more the case about playing in Vegas. A monastic regime would be better suited to shedding 20 pounds and adding a step to his perimeter defense.

The same applies to Marcus Smart, but Smart doesn't strike me as the monastic type.
 

JakeRae

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Assuming that Brown's healthy that's not only a playoff team, it's a pretty good playoff team. By replacing Walker with Richardson and adding Horford to the C spot they've made a major defensive upgrade which will help spare their two primary scorers. Nesmith's defense really came on at year's end, if he builds on that that gives them a real 3&D player on the wing. But primarily what makes them a second tier contender is Tatum's performance after recovering from covid. He was a holy terror. That player will take a team a long way. Especially as there are other guys to do the grunt work.
I agree. We should be really good defensively and Tatum can carry an offense.

I also tend to think people here are focusing too much on the FA signing with cap room pathway to acquire Beal. There is a vanishingly low chance that is how Beal would ultimately end up in Boston. It is far more likely we will trade for him or construct a sign and trade that let’s us keep a large portion of our present talent. What’s important is that we have the threat of creating $40 million in cap space, not that we actually do it.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Salary and roster fit aside, I would think going from Kemba/Fournier/TT to Al/Richardson/Dunn and giving up the rights to what became Sengun is a clear talent downgrade. Do others not see it this way?
Kemba/Fournier/TT to Al/Richardson/Dunn is a very clear offensive downgrade but is also a very clear defensive upgrade. And Al is not without offensive value.
 

Rustjive

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The only way this offseason will make sense is if they already have a commitment in hand from Beal for next year. They're pretty much punting on this upcoming season.
Even if they don't, they have to try. This offseason was absolutely barren when it came to available impact players. Re-signing Fournier, swapping Lonzo for Smart, signing Patty Mills or Rudy Gay to 2 years etc., these are extremely incremental moves that don't get the Celtics anywhere closer to winning a championship. The entire league can see and laugh at the tough position the Blazers are in with Lillard, them re-signing Powell is their version of us re-signing Fournier. They would kill to be in a position to try for a max FA next year.
 

benhogan

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Assuming that Brown's healthy that's not only a playoff team, it's a pretty good playoff team. By replacing Walker with Richardson and adding Horford to the C spot they've made a major defensive upgrade which will help spare their two primary scorers. Nesmith's defense really came on at year's end, if he builds on that that gives them a real 3&D player on the wing. But primarily what makes them a second tier contender is Tatum's performance after recovering from covid. He was a holy terror. That player will take a team a long way. Especially as there are other guys to do the grunt work.
Yep. Tatum and Brown's seasons last year aren't even a base, they will be better and potentially much better.

I also like Nesmith's upside with a full off-season (he came back last after missing a lot of college, no Summer League or pre-season) By the end of the season he was playing off the Jay's and had more confidence from 3.

Horford on the perimeter instead of TT posting on the block makes a difference to the offense in the halfcourt and opens the lane for the Jays to dribble drive.

Can't imagine the C's will be worse than the 2021 COVID ravaged edition

I suspect that Williams is trying to show the Celtics that he can get in peak physical condition. One thing we know from 2021 is that Granite cannot play himself into shape. I think that's even more the case about playing in Vegas. A monastic regime would be better suited to shedding 20 pounds and adding a step to his perimeter defense.

The same applies to Marcus Smart, but Smart doesn't strike me as the monastic type.
If Grant shows up in top condition he can contribute to the rotation as a small ball perimeter shooting 5.

If he shows up like last year he's #15 & salary filler by the trade deadline.

It's pretty binary with him, Ime will know by the end of preseason what he has with Granite.

As far as I know, the trade still isn’t completed. In the process, the Kanter TPE has expired. I’m guessing that Stevens is exploring the possibility of bringing back a player at up to 125% of his contract (~$12M) instead of a $9.7M exception.
I would have been thrilled with Delon Wright for TT. I'm not sure what's holding it up, but there are some bigger deals that could be interesting with ATL/SAC.
 

Cellar-Door

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Even if they don't, they have to try. This offseason was absolutely barren when it came to available impact players. Re-signing Fournier, swapping Lonzo for Smart, signing Patty Mills or Rudy Gay to 2 years etc., these are extremely incremental moves that don't get the Celtics anywhere closer to winning a championship. The entire league can see and laugh at the tough position the Blazers are in with Lillard, them re-signing Powell is their version of us re-signing Fournier. They would kill to be in a position to try for a max FA next year.
Something that Lowe mentioned on his podcast about next year... it's dry as hell out there already. One day into the 2021 offseason and basically all of the 2022 FAs are locked up. Next offseason is a desert. You have Beal, LaVine (but CHI is allegedly working on an extension now), Randle (if he doesn't extend) and.... woof. The RFA market is almost all extended already too.
 

128

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Anybody else starting to question the C's owners' commitment to doing what it takes to put together a championship roster? They talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk ...
 

HomeRunBaker

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Anybody else starting to question the C's owners' commitment to doing what it takes to put together a championship roster? They talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk ...
Seriously? They created the modern day Big-3 while paying the tax every year. They approved the Kemba contact and all signs point toward adding a similar deal by next year which would result in us again being one of the highest salaries in the league.
 

snowmanny

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I don’t disagree with your point but that 26 number is way too low imo. Some will stagnate there but I’ve always used 28-30 at my avg peak window when a player has learned the game enough to still be able to implement their athleticism before beginning to lose it.
26 is definitely a weird age to pick when Jordan won his first title at 28 and Magic won his first MVP at 27.
 

BigSoxFan

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Anybody else starting to question the C's owners' commitment to doing what it takes to put together a championship roster? They talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk ...
That’s the last thing I’m questioning. They’re just trying to be strategic. This sh*t is hard.
 

Cellar-Door

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Anybody else starting to question the C's owners' commitment to doing what it takes to put together a championship roster? They talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk ...
No.
I do think Wyc has decided that he's not paying much if anything in tax unless he thinks he has a really strong title chance. So basically he's not going to pay tax for a 5 seed, which is a change from what he seemed to think in the past.

That’s the last thing I’m questioning. They’re just trying to be strategic. This sh*t is hard.
We'll see how it plays out, but the re-set last year was strategic. If they don't use the mini-MLE this year it's more about not wanting to spend money for a 5 seed, because team building wise that player has value both on-court and potentially in trades, while costing nothing buy a small tax bill.
 

Spelunker

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Anybody else starting to question the C's owners' commitment to doing what it takes to put together a championship roster? They talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk ...
To add on to the chorus....

 

128

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No.
I do think Wyc has decided that he's not paying much if anything in tax unless he thinks he has a really strong title chance. So basically he's not going to pay tax for a 5 seed, which is a change from what he seemed to think in the past.
And that's fiscally prudent. But you can make the case that by paying the tax you might move the team from a 5-seed to, say, a 3-seed, and from there, depending on injuries, a lot can happen in the playoffs.

It's easy for me to want to spend others' millions, I realize, but there are clearly other ownership groups that are willing to pay whatever they think it takes.
 

lexrageorge

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Anybody else starting to question the C's owners' commitment to doing what it takes to put together a championship roster? They talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk ...
Not at all.

Ainge tried w/ Kyrie and Hayward. Gordon's injury came out of nowhere, and can't really blame anyone on the Celtics for the Kyrie blowup. Ainge tried again w/ Kemba; guy got hurt 2 years too early.

If there was a player to be had this offseason that would have moved the needle, you need to show your work to indicate which one it was. Rudy Gay doesn't count.
 

Cellar-Door

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And that's fiscally prudent. But you can make the case that by paying the tax you might move the team from a 5-seed to, say, a 3-seed, and from there, depending on injuries, a lot can happen in the playoffs.

It's easy for me to want to spend others' millions, I realize, but there are clearly other ownership groups that are willing to pay whatever they think it takes.
Yeah, it's fine to say "I'll only spend money if I think we can win the title." plenty of ownership groups do that, but I do think that not spending on 1 year deals this summer is just that, not some grand plan, Wyc thinks this year doesn't matter and wants to spend accordingly
 

benhogan

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Something that Lowe mentioned on his podcast about next year... it's dry as hell out there already. One day into the 2021 offseason and basically all of the 2022 FAs are locked up. Next offseason is a desert. You have Beal, LaVine (but CHI is allegedly working on an extension now), Randle (if he doesn't extend) and.... woof. The RFA market is almost all extended already too.
Well they own all their firsts and a bunch of controlled young players. I suspect they'll get their 3rd star via the trade market and not FA
 

128

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I hope you guys are right. I agree Rudy Gay wasn't going to move the needle, and I didn't want to give Fournier a 4-year/$78 million deal. Still, I find it a little hard to believe that minor upgrades to the roster this year would make it impossible for the C's to land a big fish in 2022. It wouldn't be the first time I've been mistaken.
 

slamminsammya

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If the season started tomorrow, what would the breakdown be for minutes at PG? Smart, Pritchard, Edwards? Would we see any all wing lineups without a true PG?
 

Cellar-Door

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Well they own all their firsts and a bunch of controlled young players. I suspect they'll get their 3rd star via the trade market and not FA
Maybe, but somebody has to trade you the guy.
I think they feel really good about Beal from how they are operating, because clearing cap space for a bad market doesn't make much sense otherwise. A bunch of trade assets become a lot less useful when they are UFA come next summer.
 

128

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If the season started tomorrow, what would the breakdown be for minutes at PG? Smart, Pritchard, Edwards? Would we see any all wing lineups without a true PG?
Dunn could be in the mix as well, though it's hard to tell what's going on with that deal (or if he'll stay in Boston if it goes through).
 

JM3

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I wouldn't mind some minutes with JRich/Jaylen/Jayson, 1 of Nesmith or Langford & 1 of TL or Al.
 

cardiacs

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Salary and roster fit aside, I would think going from Kemba/Fournier/TT to Al/Richardson/Dunn and giving up the rights to what became Sengun is a clear talent downgrade. Do others not see it this way?
I agree but don't forget we have 4-6 young guys that are progressing well, and should have better production next year. I think we are a 4-5 seed assuming no injuries, and no other changes to roster.
 

DJnVa

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The only way this offseason will make sense is if they already have a commitment in hand from Beal for next year. They're pretty much punting on this upcoming season.
View: https://twitter.com/Murf56/status/1422665334604062723
Punting? Who should they have signed? What was the plan to contenders with the cap space and free agents available this season?

I doubt they have a commitment. But the team can't operate with a plan that changes every season. Who's the difference maker they could sign this year? Fournier? Meh.

The NBA's salary structure is so convoluted and strange, it makes perfect sense to plan for next summer's potential FA bonanza. Giving up that chance to sign Fournier and some other guys to MLE's or into their trade exemptions makes no sense.
 

DJnVa

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Anybody else starting to question the C's owners' commitment to doing what it takes to put together a championship roster? They talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk ...
Not in the slightest.
 

RedOctober3829

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Punting? Who should they have signed? What was the plan to contenders with the cap space and free agents available this season?

I doubt they have a commitment. But the team can't operate with a plan that changes every season. Who's the difference maker they could sign this year? Fournier? Meh.

The NBA's salary structure is so convoluted and strange, it makes perfect sense to plan for next summer's potential FA bonanza. Giving up that chance to sign Fournier and some other guys to MLE's or into their trade exemptions makes no sense.
Sign some role players to 1+1 contracts using their exceptions that could help this year while keeping their ‘22 books as clean as they can.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I’m guessing they will sneak up on people this year with better defined roles, better leadership, not having one primary scorer too many* plus lowered expectations and a chip on their shoulder.

*I’ll note that having one scorer too many isn’t necessarily an issue in and of itself, but when he is injured, bad on both ends, and struggles to run the offense, then it is in fact bad.
 

cardiacs

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Anybody else starting to question the C's owners' commitment to doing what it takes to put together a championship roster? They talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk ...
Nope. Their approach seems logical to me.
It can be frustrating because it seems like we are relying on progression of existing guys and lack of injuries to avoid considering the upcoming year to be a "bridge" year but going out and making a splash just to show the fanbase they mean business would be a terrible mistake, IMO.

edit: this mindset ought to satisfy the types of people that read this forum.
 

JakeRae

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I hope you guys are right. I agree Rudy Gay wasn't going to move the needle, and I didn't want to give Fournier a 4-year/$78 million deal. Still, I find it a little hard to believe that minor upgrades to the roster this year would make it impossible for the C's to land a big fish in 2022. It wouldn't be the first time I've been mistaken.
There’s three semi-related issues. First, any upgrade that comes with a multi-year commitment potentially impacts both the ability to acquire Beal and the price to do so. Second, because of the above and because we are not a ring chasing destination, the caliber of player available on a 1 year taxpayer MLE is likely fairly low. Third, while any tax bill this year is small, the repeater tax structure means that crossing the threshold from not being a tax payer to being a tax payer can have major ramifications down the road. That’s particularly true for the Celtics because we were a taxpaying team 2 years ago. If we are in the tax this year and next, we are repeaters in 2023. If we stay below this year, that gets pushed back to 2025 (assuming we end up a taxpayer next year). At that point, we’re talking about ownership saving potentially upwards of $50 million future dollars at the expense of a year of someone like Bjelica. It’s not hard to see why the prudent long term path is to wait a year.
 

JM3

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Sign some role players to 1+1 contracts using their exceptions that could help this year while keeping their ‘22 books as clean as they can.
Most people who are signing 1+1 this offseason the 2nd year is a player option, not team. Who do you think would take what we could offer who would have moved the needle?
 

cardiacs

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4-5 seed? I’m not so sure about that. Off the top of my head you have Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Philly, Miami, and Atlanta who are better.
On paper I agree but I think injuries or chemistry issues will hamstring 1-2 of that group.

One other thing, if Collins splits from ATL I am going to go out on a limb and put them below the Celtics.
 

JakeRae

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Sign some role players to 1+1 contracts using their exceptions that could help this year while keeping their ‘22 books as clean as they can.
They could do that, but we’re probably talking pretty slim pickings on guys who want a 5/1 deal to play on a fairly crowded roster. And using their exceptions means paying the tax this year (not a big deal this year since it would be a small tax), which would accelerate the repeater tax threshold 2 years, which is a big deal if the plan is to acquire Beal and be a perennial deep tax paying team for the 4+ seasons after that.
 

128

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I’m not convinced Philly, Miami or Atlanta are better than a healthy Celtics team.
I think Miami should be damn good. Maybe not better-than-the-Bucks-or-Nets good, but a roster with Bam, Butler, Lowry, Robinson, Herro and Tucker, among others, trumps anything the C's, even at full strength, can put on the floor.

EDIT: Heat just added Markieff Morris, too, further strengthening their bench.
 
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RedOctober3829

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They could do that, but we’re probably talking pretty slim pickings on guys who want a 5/1 deal to play on a fairly crowded roster. And using their exceptions means paying the tax this year (not a big deal this year since it would be a small tax), which would accelerate the repeater tax threshold 2 years, which is a big deal if the plan is to acquire Beal and be a perennial deep tax paying team for the 4+ seasons after that.
If they’re able to sign a guy like Beal, then this is a great plan. If not, what are we left with? We’ll be stuck in purgatory and then you could be open to the fact that Tatum/Brown may start to look elsewhere.
 

JM3

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So somebody who doesn't like the flexibility for next year plan, build me a realistic roster that sounds better than keeping that flexibility.

Or talk to me about someone we should have signed to take our cap exception?
 

RedOctober3829

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So somebody who doesn't like the flexibility for next year plan, build me a realistic roster that sounds better than keeping that flexibility.

Or talk to me about someone we should have signed to take our cap exception?
I’m not saying I don’t think what they’re doing is the prudent approach. Because of what they’re doing I just don’t think they’ll be a very good team next year and they better land the big fish they’re leaving room for.
 

JM3

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I’m not saying I don’t think what they’re doing is the prudent approach. Because of what they’re doing I just don’t think they’ll be a very good team next year and they better land the big fish they’re leaving room for.
I guess my point is there isn't a great 2nd option that they're foregoing to try this, so it's not really that big of a gamble.
 

JakeRae

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If they’re able to sign a guy like Beal, then this is a great plan. If not, what are we left with? We’ll be stuck in purgatory and then you could be open to the fact that Tatum/Brown may start to look elsewhere.
The exact same situation we’d be in if we signed a couple 1 year contracts?
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I’m guessing they will sneak up on people this year with better defined roles, better leadership, not having one primary scorer too many* plus lowered expectations and a chip on their shoulder.

*I’ll note that having one scorer too many isn’t necessarily an issue in and of itself, but when he is injured, bad on both ends, and struggles to run the offense, then it is in fact bad.
+1. I'm feeling pretty much full green teamer about them coming roaring back next year as a strong defensive team that plays much tougher, and the Jays providing enough offense to keep them afloat on that end. I think they flushed out some serious problems that led to their lackadaisical play. 50-32.*

*if healthy