2021-22 NBA Off-season Thread

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radsoxfan

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I think it’s a good trade based on the money, but just don’t expect Bledsoe to be some big on-court upgrade.

Games played doesn’t always mean a lot with arthritis. You often CAN play, it’s not like an acute injury. People play through pain and discomfort all the time.

You just aren’t very good anymore when you do.
 
moondog80

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I'm willing to grant Bledsoe a mulligan on last year -- weird team, bad coach, uncertain role with Lonzo at PG. He was second team all defense the previous year in Milwaukee and had a PER of 17.6. Much better situation awaits him in LA.
 
HomeRunBaker

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moondog80 said:
I'm willing to grant Bledsoe a mulligan on last year -- weird team, bad coach, uncertain role with Lonzo at PG. He was second team all defense the previous year in Milwaukee and had a PER of 17.6. Much better situation awaits him in LA.
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Normally I’d do the same as I’m a huge proponent of throwing out “down years” when a proven veteran at age 30 is thrown into an awful situation as he was. However there isn’t a defensive metric alive that can tell me Bledsoe wasn’t the weak link in the Bucks elite defense two years ago. He had already lost a step by then and based on his knee history I’m skeptical of his future.
 
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radsoxfan

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I can’t wait til next summer when the Clippers buy out his 2022-2023 season and we discuss if he’s worth a flier on the vet minimum in 12 months.
 
mcpickl

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radsoxfan said:
I can’t wait til next summer when the Clippers buy out his 2022-2023 season and we discuss if he’s worth a flier on the vet minimum in 12 months.
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You can write that press release now. Near certainty he's getting waived next summer with only 3.9 of his 19.3M guaranteed.

Besides the other red flags raised in this thread, I'd like to add on that he's a puddle in the playoffs. We've all seen that first hand vs the Celtics.

A career 34% 3 point shooter shrinking to 25% in the playoffs is a disaster.
 
bigq

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Yep an even worse version of Kemba in a Celtics uniform which was hard to watch. He was 37% from 3 in the regular season and 29% in the playoffs not to mention continuously a turnstile on defense.
 
Jimbodandy

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HomeRunBaker said:
I feel the exact opposite. Both teams just saved a shit ton of money even if no player ever suits up for them.
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I'm just being a smartass. Good to see teams smartly managing the money. But it wouldn't surprise me if the trade machine rated it a loss for both teams based on the players involved.
 
JM3

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Turns out the Clippers are also getting an $8.25m trade exception in the deal because PBev & Oturu is enough to match Bledsoe's salary.

Bledsoe only has $3.9m guaranteed next year, so this trade doesn't make a lot of sense for the Grizzlies unless they can flip PBev/Rondo for picks or something. Grizzlies have 17 fully guaranteed contracts for this season now (Clippers dropped from 16 to 14 + Yogi's partial guarantee).
 
HomeRunBaker

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JM3 said:
Turns out the Clippers are also getting an $8.25m trade exception in the deal because PBev & Oturu is enough to match Bledsoe's salary.

Bledsoe only has $3.9m guaranteed next year, so this trade doesn't make a lot of sense for the Grizzlies unless they can flip PBev/Rondo for picks or something. Grizzlies have 17 fully guaranteed contracts for this season now (Clippers dropped from 16 to 14 + Yogi's partial guarantee).
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Yeah that’s the idea. The Grizz know that there will be takers for both Bev and Rondo so they will receive more that the $3.9m in savings. Even if they have to take something back or assume part of the salary they should have no trouble tacking on to that $3.9m
 
HomeRunBaker

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Kliq

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Culver has been such a bomb; can't shoot, can't pass, can't defend, can't stay healthy. What a waste of #6 pick; He ranks 57th out of 58th in career win shares from the 2019 draft. Still time to rebuild him but, yikes.
 
Dduncan6er

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Not sure where else to post this but First Take announced Lakers-Nets and Knicks-Hawks for Christmas day. The rest of the Christmas schedule is coming later today. Hoping the Celtics get a game but wouldn't be shocked if they don't. I'd imagine the Bucks, Sixers, and probably Heat are higher in the Eastern Conference pecking order as far as getting a Christmas day game.
 
Sam Ray Not

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Kliq said:
Culver has been such a bomb; can't shoot, can't pass, can't defend, can't stay healthy. What a waste of #6 pick; He ranks 57th out of 58th in career win shares from the 2019 draft. Still time to rebuild him but, yikes.
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Sometimes the 6 pick gets you Larry Bird … sometimes it gets you Jarrett Culver. (Which one is Josh Giddey?)

Seriously, how much of a bust at #6 do you have to be to not just get traded after two seasons for 33 y.o. Pat Beverley, but to be the *lesser piece* in the deal?

Welcome to Wolvestown, I guess. Now watch both Juancho and Culver light it up in Memphis…
 
Cesar Crespo

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Sam Ray Not said:
Seriously, how much of a bust at #6 do you have to be to not just get traded after two seasons for 33 y.o. Pat Beverley, but to be the *lesser piece* in the deal?
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It's really not all that uncommon. I mean, maybe that specific scenario but not lottery picks busting.
 
Cellar-Door

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Sam Ray Not said:
Sometimes the 6 pick gets you Larry Bird … sometimes it gets you Jarrett Culver. (Which one is Josh Giddey?)

Seriously, how much of a bust at #6 do you have to be to not just get traded after two seasons for 33 y.o. Pat Beverley, but to be the *lesser piece* in the deal?

Welcome to Wolvestown, I guess. Now watch both Juancho and Culver light it up in Memphis…
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A bunch of guys could have done that. Last one that did was Vesley who was the lesser piece (behind a protected 2nd) in a deal for washed Andre Miller, then got cut at the end of the year.
Ekpe Udoh was a throwin in the Bogut trade after 1 season, then not offered the QO
Johnny Flynn was flotsam in trades in his 2nd AND 3rd year

He hasn't been good at all, but plenty of other guys have been similar out of that spot who weren't traded.
 
Sam Ray Not

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Cesar Crespo said:
It's really not all that uncommon. I mean, maybe that specific scenario but not lottery picks busting.
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Yeah … usually teams give guys picked that high a bit more than two seasons, if only out of organizational pride, but a two-season hook is certainly not unheard of. Heck, in Wolvestown alone, Jonny Flynn was cut loose 1.5 seasons after getting picked at #6 in front of Curry, and Derrick Williams (picked #2 ahead ot Kawhi and Klay) was shipped out early in this third season.
 
BigSoxFan

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Kliq said:
Culver has been such a bomb; can't shoot, can't pass, can't defend, can't stay healthy. What a waste of #6 pick; He ranks 57th out of 58th in career win shares from the 2019 draft. Still time to rebuild him but, yikes.
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Minnesota might want to consider trading out of that spot going forward (see Flynn, Jonny).
 
Euclis20

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Sam Ray Not said:
Yeah … usually teams give guys picked that high a bit more than two seasons, if only out of organizational pride, but a two-season hook is certainly not unheard of. Heck, in Wolvestown alone, Jonny Flynn was cut loose 1.5 seasons after getting picked at #6 in front of Curry, and Derrick Williams (picked #2 ahead ot Kawhi and Klay) was shipped out early in this third season.
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43518
 
JM3

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Investing in Culver as a distressed asset is good business, even if he's bad at basketball.
 
HomeRunBaker

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Sam Ray Not said:
Yeah … usually teams give guys picked that high a bit more than two seasons, if only out of organizational pride, but a two-season hook is certainly not unheard of. Heck, in Wolvestown alone, Jonny Flynn was cut loose 1.5 seasons after getting picked at #6 in front of Curry, and Derrick Williams (picked #2 ahead ot Kawhi and Klay) was shipped out early in this third season.
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Flynn suffered a career ending hip injury. He wasn’t Steph who he was picked above but he could really play pre-injury.
 
ManicCompression

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Let's not forget that Rosas traded up for Culver, exchanging Cam Johnson and Saric for the right to draft him. Not a good look to already be moving on after less than two years.
 
cheech13

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Anthony Bennett was the number one overall pick, was a throw-in to the Love trade after his rookie season, and then waived after his second season.
 
moondog80

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Kliq said:
He's the biggest bust in NBA history, but someone like Mark Appel would have to be considered the worst #1 overall pick.
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Lots of #1 picks have been busts, in all sports, so it's a matter of degree as to who was the worst. Appel was a bust for sure, but he was drafted in 2013 and still a top 100 prospect going into the 2016 season. Bennett had zero (or negative) trade value within a year of being drafted. He's ahead of Appel on my list.
 
HomeRunBaker

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moondog80 said:
Lots of #1 picks have been busts, in all sports, so it's a matter of degree as to who was the worst. Appel was a bust for sure, but he was drafted in 2013 and still a top 100 prospect going into the 2016 season. Bennett had zero (or negative) trade value within a year of being drafted. He's ahead of Appel on my list.
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I wouldn’t consider Bennett the biggest bust since the other options would have also been busts. To me, that isn’t what a bust is. Markelle Fultz is a bust bc they could have had Tatum or even Ball. Darko is a bust as Detroit could have had Carmelo, Wade or Bosh. Again, everyone can have their own opinion on what constitutes a bust but mine
 
moondog80

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HomeRunBaker said:
I wouldn’t consider Bennett the biggest bust since the other options would have also been busts. To me, that isn’t what a bust is. Markelle Fultz is a bust bc they could have had Tatum or even Ball. Darko is a bust as Detroit could have had Carmelo, Wade or Bosh. Again, everyone can have their own opinion on what constitutes a bust but mine
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That's reasonable. I'd still say he's the answer to the question "which #1 pick had the worst career", but if you want to say that's different from "worst selection given the alternatives", I'll buy it.
 
Euclis20

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HomeRunBaker said:
I wouldn’t consider Bennett the biggest bust since the other options would have also been busts. To me, that isn’t what a bust is. Markelle Fultz is a bust bc they could have had Tatum or even Ball. Darko is a bust as Detroit could have had Carmelo, Wade or Bosh. Again, everyone can have their own opinion on what constitutes a bust but mine
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It's a matter of degrees. The 2013 draft was really odd in that the best player was taken 15th and the second best player was taken 27th, but there were a number of decent players (Adams, Oladipo, McCollum, Porter, KCP, Schroder, even Olynyk) and they took a guy who literally wasn't even an NBA player. Darko played for 10 years and was a decent rotation player for a good chunk of that. The book isn't yet written on Fultz but barring something new he'll stick around for awhile longer.

Slightly off topic, but while Fultz and Darko were certainly busts considering who came after, I'm not sure anyone can beat Oden in that regard. Not just because of who came after him (Durant is likely going to have a better career than anyone drafted after either Fultz or Darko), but because unlike Fultz/Darko (and Bennett), Oden was seen as a generational talent. He was supposed to be a cross between Mutombo and Ewing, and he ended up playing barely 100 career games over 7 years. Maybe he gets a pass because of injuries, but considering expectations, alternatives and results, I don't think anyone is as perfect a bust as Oden.
 
HowBoutDemSox

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Dduncan6er said:
Not sure where else to post this but First Take announced Lakers-Nets and Knicks-Hawks for Christmas day. The rest of the Christmas schedule is coming later today. Hoping the Celtics get a game but wouldn't be shocked if they don't. I'd imagine the Bucks, Sixers, and probably Heat are higher in the Eastern Conference pecking order as far as getting a Christmas day game.
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Worry not, we get Celtics @ Bucks on Christmas day. No Heat or Sixers games.
View: https://twitter.com/ClutchPointsApp/status/1427711213698392065
 
Conigliaro's Potential

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Dduncan6er said:
Not sure where else to post this but First Take announced Lakers-Nets and Knicks-Hawks for Christmas day. The rest of the Christmas schedule is coming later today. Hoping the Celtics get a game but wouldn't be shocked if they don't. I'd imagine the Bucks, Sixers, and probably Heat are higher in the Eastern Conference pecking order as far as getting a Christmas day game.
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Can't tell you how pumped I am for Hawks-Knicks on Christmas Day - my team feels relevant!
 
HomeRunBaker

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Euclis20 said:
It's a matter of degrees. The 2013 draft was really odd in that the best player was taken 15th and the second best player was taken 27th, but there were a number of decent players (Adams, Oladipo, McCollum, Porter, KCP, Schroder, even Olynyk) and they took a guy who literally wasn't even an NBA player. Darko played for 10 years and was a decent rotation player for a good chunk of that. The book isn't yet written on Fultz but barring something new he'll stick around for awhile longer.

Slightly off topic, but while Fultz and Darko were certainly busts considering who came after, I'm not sure anyone can beat Oden in that regard. Not just because of who came after him (Durant is likely going to have a better career than anyone drafted after either Fultz or Darko), but because unlike Fultz/Darko (and Bennett), Oden was seen as a generational talent. He was supposed to be a cross between Mutombo and Ewing, and he ended up playing barely 100 career games over 7 years. Maybe he gets a pass because of injuries, but considering expectations, alternatives and results, I don't think anyone is as perfect a bust as Oden.
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Darko was a decent rotation player for what? He got minites next to Howard, GHill and Turkoglu then got minutes on a couple 20-win teams in Memphis. He was never ever good.
 
Dduncan6er

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moondog80

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Euclis20 said:
It's a matter of degrees. The 2013 draft was really odd in that the best player was taken 15th and the second best player was taken 27th, but there were a number of decent players (Adams, Oladipo, McCollum, Porter, KCP, Schroder, even Olynyk) and they took a guy who literally wasn't even an NBA player. Darko played for 10 years and was a decent rotation player for a good chunk of that. The book isn't yet written on Fultz but barring something new he'll stick around for awhile longer.

Slightly off topic, but while Fultz and Darko were certainly busts considering who came after, I'm not sure anyone can beat Oden in that regard. Not just because of who came after him (Durant is likely going to have a better career than anyone drafted after either Fultz or Darko), but because unlike Fultz/Darko (and Bennett), Oden was seen as a generational talent. He was supposed to be a cross between Mutombo and Ewing, and he ended up playing barely 100 career games over 7 years. Maybe he gets a pass because of injuries, but considering expectations, alternatives and results, I don't think anyone is as perfect a bust as Oden.
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Yeah, I view injuries differently.

I think Bennett is unique in just how quickly it became apparent that was simply not an NBA caliber player, and there were no injuries or off-court stuff involved.
 
Kliq

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Euclis20 said:
It's a matter of degrees. The 2013 draft was really odd in that the best player was taken 15th and the second best player was taken 27th, but there were a number of decent players (Adams, Oladipo, McCollum, Porter, KCP, Schroder, even Olynyk) and they took a guy who literally wasn't even an NBA player. Darko played for 10 years and was a decent rotation player for a good chunk of that. The book isn't yet written on Fultz but barring something new he'll stick around for awhile longer.

Slightly off topic, but while Fultz and Darko were certainly busts considering who came after, I'm not sure anyone can beat Oden in that regard. Not just because of who came after him (Durant is likely going to have a better career than anyone drafted after either Fultz or Darko), but because unlike Fultz/Darko (and Bennett), Oden was seen as a generational talent. He was supposed to be a cross between Mutombo and Ewing, and he ended up playing barely 100 career games over 7 years. Maybe he gets a pass because of injuries, but considering expectations, alternatives and results, I don't think anyone is as perfect a bust as Oden.
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Going into the draft there was two consensus thoughts on Oden: That he was the best big man prospect in a generation, and that he had major injury concerns. The injuries were really tragic because Oden was a completely fantastic player; he had everything you would want out of a center during those times; size, strength, quickness, defensive instincts, soft touch around the rim, could pass a little bit. He really dominated the Noah/Horford tandem in the NCAA title game that year. (Also, lol at the shorts).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXNHBBvOZ8
 
HomeRunBaker

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Dduncan6er said:
Wow. Surprising. Definitely would have bet on the Sixers or Heat getting that game over the Celtics. NBA also can't be thrilled that the NFL is again hosting games on Christmas. There's 2 NFL games Christmas Day with the first at 4:25 and the 2nd at 8:15. That'll eat into their ratings quite a bit.
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“Eat” is a massive understatement. The networks should consider moving the games up a time slot but not sure if the CBA allows for morning games.
 
Kliq

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moondog80 said:
Yeah, I view injuries differently.

I think Bennett is unique in just how quickly it became apparent that was simply not an NBA caliber player, and there were no injuries or off-court stuff involved.
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Bennett also because it happened so recently and we like to think the pitfalls that had caused other busts in the past would have been easily spotted. With Darko it is easy to see why he was drafted so high; NBA executives didn't understand European basketball very well and everyone wanted the next Dirk. We expect front offices to know better and the scouting process is so thorough, it makes it seem like a huge bust like Bennett wouldn't be possible.
 
Kliq

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HomeRunBaker said:
Darko was a decent rotation player for what? He got minites next to Howard, GHill and Turkoglu then got minutes on a couple 20-win teams in Memphis. He was never ever good.
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Darko's problem was that he had very little professional basketball experience before he was drafted, and then immediately came over and sat on the bench for three years in Detroit. His development was incredibly stunted and he never got the playing time in his formative years to develop on what was a promising skill set. Today he would have been stashed overseas or gone to the G League where he would have been able to develop quicker.
 
Dduncan6er

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HomeRunBaker said:
“Eat” is a massive understatement. The networks should consider moving the games up a time slot but not sure if the CBA allows for morning games.
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Dwarf was probably the correct word to use. Seems like it would have made more sense to put the big time games earlier in the day before the NFL starts. They kept the marquee game (Lakers/Nets) later in the day though which is probably due to the fact that it's in LA.
 
HomeRunBaker

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Kliq said:
Darko's problem was that he had very little professional basketball experience before he was drafted, and then immediately came over and sat on the bench for three years in Detroit. His development was incredibly stunted and he never got the playing time in his formative years to develop on what was a promising skill set. Today he would have been stashed overseas or gone to the G League where he would have been able to develop quicker.
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Meh, he had a ton of playing time as a 21, 22 and 23 year old and sucked out loud. He was Tacko-level bad those early years in Detroit which is why they signed washed-up Elden Campbell and Derrick Coleman to try and give them bench minites.
 
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